spoiler Twilight is a horrible Princess of Friendship

[ManaMinori 4,143]

Her presence and actions have just gotten so cringey over the years, and makes it seem like she's dragging her title through the mud. Stealing Novo's pearl and not trusting her friends to win the seaponies'  trust, trying to monopolize the concpt of friendship being taught exclusively in HER school, not trusting her friends to make up over a spat on their own, but deciding to trick her friends into making up, rather than allowing them some time to be alone, cool off, and come to their senses...

All these and other examples make her look like a monopolistic corporation/ disctator, with how she poorly handles situations where friendships come into play. I realy don't care much for her character because of crap like this. 

 

[Jeric 46,834]

You are certainly a bundle of fun these days @Nightmare Muffin. Might I suggest a ice cream sundae to turn that sour disposition around. Couldn't hurt. 

 

I actually love the things that you mentioned as being cringey (which is a horribly overused word that needs to be shot into the sun ... thank you internet for zombication of the under twenty-something's vernacular). To each their own. These ponies fucking up each week is what makes them fun to watch. Especially when you see this happen in real life often enough to be able to point out specifics in people you know (and if you are lucky ... yourself). 

[Will Guide 21,325]

6 minutes ago, Jeric said:

You are certainly a bundle of fun these days @Nightmare Muffin. Might I suggest a ice cream sundae to turn that sour disposition around. Couldn't hurt. 

 

I actually love the things that you mentioned as being cringey (which is a horribly overused word that needs to be shot into the sun ... thank you internet for zombication of the under twenty-something and under vernacular). To each their own. These ponies fucking up each week is what makes them fun to watch. Especially when you see this happen in real life often enough to be able to point out specifics in people you know (and if you are lucky ... yourself). 

Yeah, it's actually a good thing to see a character mess up time and time again, because then we can see different ways a problem can be solved.

Edited August 12, 2018 by Will Guide

[MangoFoalix 24,898]

Let me pick apart your rant and apply logic to it.

11 minutes ago, Nightmare Muffin said:

Stealing Novo's pearl and not trusting her friends to win the seaponies'  trust

Twilight has always been the skeptical one of her friends. She never trusts anything without seeing it for herself first. An example of this is when she was not trusting that Pinkie Pie had a Pinkie sense.

12 minutes ago, Nightmare Muffin said:

trying to monopolize the concpt of friendship being taught exclusively in HER school,

She never tried to monopolize the concept of a friendship school. She knew that flim and flam were up to a scam because of her previous encounters with them. I don't think she would mind there being another legit friendship school.

13 minutes ago, Nightmare Muffin said:

not trusting her friends to make up over a spat on their own

It's not that she didn't trust them to do so, it's that she wanted to help ease things along in case it got really bad. I've seen people get absolutely fed up with each other when they really don't mean it. She wanted to save them from feeling regret.

15 minutes ago, Nightmare Muffin said:

All these and other examples make her look like a monopolistic corporation/ disctator, with how she poorly handles situations where friendships come into play. I realy don't care much for her character because of crap like this. 

She is more like a benevolent ruler if you can say it like that. She wants the right things for ponies, she has never wanted to hurt some pony just because of their differences. She believes someone can reform like how it was done with Starlight Glimmer.

[ManaMinori 4,143]

9 minutes ago, Jeric said:

You are certainly a bundle of fun these days @Nightmare Muffin. Might I suggest a ice cream sundae to turn that sour disposition around. Couldn't hurt. 

 

I actually love the things that you mentioned as being cringey (which is a horribly overused word that needs to be shot into the sun ... thank you internet for zombication of the under twenty-something's vernacular). To each their own. These ponies fucking up each week is what makes them fun to watch. Especially when you see this happen in real life often enough to be able to point out specifics in people you know (and if you are lucky ... yourself). 

I would love an ice cream sundae. 

 

Also, if I had a friend that I fought with, and a third party friend judged the situation, not giving me or the friend that I fought with adeuate time for us to cool off and restore our frendship on our own, but elaborately planned to get two other outside friends invollved to force us into a situation where me and the fighting friend were manipulated into getting along, I would feel insulted because those three other friends deemed me incapable of sorting things out on my own, but also because they didn't allow me some breathing room. That is exactly what Twilight (and Starlight/Spike) did to Rares and Rainbow

[Ganondorf8 11,118]

If Twilight was a perfect princess, she would be absolutely boring to watch not to mention be someone that few could relate to. By having her with numerous flaws, it makes her a more interesting character. Sure, some of her actions/decisions are questionable but I see it as part of her own learning experience. These are countered by actions/decisions that have proven to be beneficial for the future of Equestria.

[ManaMinori 4,143]

10 minutes ago, Will Guide said:

Yeah, it's actually a good thing to see a character mess up time and time again, because then we can see different ways a problem can be solved.

Except in none of those examples that I brought up was it ever portrayed as Twilight being in the wrong and 'Messing up'

[Jeric 46,834]

Just now, Nightmare Muffin said:

I would love an ice cream sundae. 

 

Also, if I had a friend that I fought with, and a third party friend judged the situation, not giving me or the friend that I fought with adeuate time for us to cool off and restore our frendship on our own, but elaborately planned to get two other outside friends invollved to force us into a situation where me and the fighting friend were manipulated into getting along, I would feel insulted because those three other friends deemed me incapable of sorting things out on my own, but also because they didn't allow me some breathing room. That is exactly what Twilight (and Starlight/Spike) did to Rares and Rainbow

Eh. I have saved relationships (family, friends, and romantic ones) by intervening in similar ways. Saved a life or two in the process. Sometimes people are incapable of stepping outside of their own anger for two minutes and need a friend to show them how ridiculous they are being. Also, you have to realize that Twilight wasn't on an island as an impartial observer. Step away from your anger for a moment and see that she is emotionally invested here. Friendship dynamics like this are far from as simple as you put it. 

4 minutes ago, Nightmare Muffin said:

Except in none of those examples that I brought up was it ever portrayed as Twilight being in the wrong and 'Messing up'

Uhhhh. Wrong. She was specifically told she done fucked up with the pearl. She accepted that she done fucked up. You did see the movie, right?

[BastementSparkle 20,310]

Twilight never tried to monopolize the idea of a "Friendship school" she was a bit upset and wanted to check it out, sure. But she really only became hostile after seeing it was run by Flim and Flam, who are con-artists who consistently try to scam and swindle ponies out of their money and have never shown even the slightest desire to change. Even after seeing they plagiarized her book, and seeing that they were indeed scamming their students and using the money not to fund the school, but their resort, she still offered to let them keep using her lessons and running their school if they returned the bits and quit charging for nonsense. If she was so concerned about being the only friendship school, she wouldn't have done that.

6 minutes ago, Nightmare Muffin said:

Except in none of those examples that I brought up was it ever portrayed as Twilight being in the wrong and 'Messing up'

She was very blatantly the one in the wrong when it came to stealing Novo's pearl, that's why her friends got so upset at her. They had actually managed to convince the Hippogriff's to offer help just by being friendly, and then Twilight went and ruined it by not trusting them and trying to steal the pearl. She got horribly upset with herself because she knew she screwed up, if you honestly think they were trying to portray her as being in the right, you weren't paying any attention at all.

[MangoFoalix 24,898]

I realize that this is a very sensitive topic for few but please stay on topic and don't write messages like "oh boy, what an angry topic". It doesn't help contribute to the discussion at hand and will be considered off-topic.

[Goat-kun 2,496]

Let's switch it around. Twilight having faults is good. Twilight bucking up is also good. It's just that Princess of Friendship is kind of a shit concept. It's a Mary Sue title that gives one all the wrong vibes and serves as a dampener for all the interesting potential buckups Twilight could experience. S03E13: I cry every time.

[ManaMinori 4,143]

35 minutes ago, Jeric said:

Eh. I have saved relationships (family, friends, and romantic ones) by intervening in similar ways. Saved a life or two in the process. Sometimes people are incapable of stepping outside of their own anger for two minutes and need a friend to show them how ridiculous they are being. Also, you have to realize that Twilight wasn't on an island as an impartial observer. Step away from your anger for a moment and see that she is emotionally invested here. Friendship dynamics like this are far from as simple as you put it. 

Uhhhh. Wrong. She was specifically told she done fucked up with the pearl. She accepted that she done fucked up. You did see the movie, right?

fine, I'll give you that. But both Rares and Rainbow have been shown to put their differences aside before. Not just with each other, but with their other friends as well. So it still seems unreasonable to Twilight to play matchmaker this time.

I did see the movie. I have the movie. And Twilight, at the end, has her apology left ambiguous as to whether she was apologizing for yelling at Pinkie, for betraying her friend's trust in her, or not trusting in her friends. And she only ever apologized to Pinkie, not the Hippogriffs for trying to steal their pearl rather than attempting to befriend them, which makes me assume that Twilight just apologized for yelling at Pinkie and nothing else.

Edited August 12, 2018 by Nightmare Muffin

[Kyoshi Frost Wolf 40,239]

Basing her whole character off of a poorly written movie isn't the best idea. 

[ManaMinori 4,143]

Just now, Kyoshi said:

Basing her whole character off of a poorly written movie isn't the best idea. 

except I also provided characterization from the series itself. It's in the op.

[Kyoshi Frost Wolf 40,239]

2 minutes ago, Nightmare Muffin said:

except I also provided characterization from the series itself. It's in the op.

I wouldn't say they were the best examples though. Twilight running the school the way she wants makes sense since she came up with the whole idea. Sure, it wasn't the best idea, but that's just how she does things. By the book. 

[cuteycindyhoney 13,283]

I am enjoying Princess Twilight's growth. I see nothing cringe-worthy about her character.

[Twilight Luna 30,917]

1 hour ago, Nightmare Muffin said:

Her presence and actions have just gotten so cringey over the years, and makes it seem like she's dragging her title through the mud. Stealing Novo's pearl and not trusting her friends to win the seaponies'  trust, trying to monopolize the concpt of friendship being taught exclusively in HER school, not trusting her friends to make up over a spat on their own, but deciding to trick her friends into making up, rather than allowing them some time to be alone, cool off, and come to their senses...

All these and other examples make her look like a monopolistic corporation/ disctator, with how she poorly handles situations where friendships come into play. I realy don't care much for her character because of crap like this. 

 

You are of course entitled to your opinion. 

Twilight stole the pearl because she was desperate after the seaponies said ‘no’. She felt like she had to save Equestria on her own. Her friends were not helping. Pinkie was drawing attention to them, they made friends with someone who wanted to sell them, and Rainbow Dash leading Tempest to them with her sonic rainboom. All her grief, frustration, and exhaustion boils over when she yells at Pinky. She then realizes what she had done and tries to apologize before her friends walk out on her.

She knew that Flim and Flam were up to something because of her past experiences with them. And she was correct. Flim and Flam were running a sham university that was not free like they claimed. Plus they were stealing from Twilight’s book.

Twilight knew that Rarity and Rainbow were were stubborn and knew she had to help. She didn’t impose her will on them and force them to make up. She, Spike, and Starlight came up with a plan to nudge them in the right direction to help them remember when they were friends. 

Twilight is in no way perfect and she never claims to be. If you want a perfect Princess, then look at Cadence. I’d rather have a character that messes up and has problems than one that is perfect. Otherwise you have a Marry Sur character which is not fun to watch.

[TBD 17,228]

The stealing the pearl part was well...:facepalm: 

Nevertheless,  Twilight is good at friendship, it's just sometime stress get the best out of her.

[ManaMinori 4,143]

1 hour ago, TheTaZe said:

Let me pick apart your rant and apply logic to it.

Twilight has always been the skeptical one of her friends. She never trusts anything without seeing it for herself first. An example of this is when she was not trusting that Pinkie Pie had a Pinkie sense.

She never tried to monopolize the concept of a friendship school. She knew that flim and flam were up to a scam because of her previous encounters with them. I don't think she would mind there being another legit friendship school.

It's not that she didn't trust them to do so, it's that she wanted to help ease things along in case it got really bad. I've seen people get absolutely fed up with each other when they really don't mean it. She wanted to save them from feeling regret.

She is more like a benevolent ruler if you can say it like that. She wants the right things for ponies, she has never wanted to hurt some pony just because of their differences. She believes someone can reform like how it was done with Starlight Glimmer.

The fact that Twilight tried to monopolize the school is evident. Long before she even ran into Flim and Flam, her shock/ horror/ disgust/ concerns were out in the open. Right after she got Starswirl's latest letter, she bragged that "he could just come to my school" if he wanted to learn friendship, rather than being out and experiencing it, naturally, outside of a learning institution. Then when the advertisement was given to her by Cozy Glow for the Friendship University, she seemed paralyzed with shock, unable to process the information that a rival had appeared. Then, as she and Rarity went all the way to Las Pegasus, to check out the "competition", Twilight patronizingly asked "who would open another friendship school?" as if no one else had the right to. Rarity even advocated Twilight's attitude by saying "YOU'RE the PoF. What could this other school possibly have to offer?"

[MangoFoalix 24,898]

Just now, Nightmare Muffin said:

The fact that Twilight tried to monopolize the school is evident. Long before she even ran into Flim and Flam, her shock/ horror/ disgust/ concerns were out in the open. Right after she got Starswirl's latest letter, she bragged that "he could just come to my school" if he wanted to learn friendship, rather than being out and experiencing it, naturally, outside of a learning institution. Then when the advertisement was given to her by Cozy Glow for the Friendship University, she seemed paralyzed with shock, unable to process the information that a rival had appeared. Then, as she and Rarity went all the way to Las Pegasus, to check out the "competition", Twilight patronizingly asked "who would open another friendship school?" as if no one else had the right to. Rarity even advocated Twilight's attitude by saying "YOU'RE the PoF. What could this other school possibly have to offer?" 

This is where you fallacy in logic comes to play. She said she didn't want Starswirl to be that school because it was ran by Flim and Flam. She knew Flim and Flam were running a scam of a business to the ponies because of what other times she experienced them with.

[ManaMinori 4,143]

5 minutes ago, TheTaZe said:

This is where you fallacy in logic comes to play. She said she didn't want Starswirl to be that school because it was ran by Flim and Flam. She knew Flim and Flam were running a scam of a business to the ponies because of what other times she experienced them with.

again, you're looking at her actions after she rand into Flim and Flam. There was significant time before they jumped out to the crowd of ponies and revealed themselves where Twilight seems like she's not on board with the other school existing, period.

 

But if you want to look at the time after Twilight meets them, how about the line where she admits to Flim and Flam that she'll back off if the approval of the school came from someone whose opinions that she actually respected, and upon showing Starswirl to her (and in no way forcing him to agree with them), Twilight goes back on her word  at the drop of Trixie's hat and continues to push for the school's closure, because Starswirl didn't go to HER school. Monopolizing friendship at its best.

 

and can we not forget that she's holding a grudge on the brothers for their past actions, just as she did with Trixie. They're not even running a scam, in this episode. They're allowed to do whatever they please with their money. (and it's not an issue that they're charging for worksheets, either, because Starswirl mentioned "they don't even charge for classes". Twilight's lack of response to this makes it seem like SHE DOES charge, as she's the only other friendship school on the playing field)

[DonMaguz 1,023]

I wouldn't say 'horrible', but she definitely has a long way to go as Princess of Friendship, and I would say as a princess overall.

Even if we stretch the timeline as much as we could, Twilight has been a princess for less than a decade and has taken deliberate decisions about friendship in Equestria starting with offering herself as a mentor to Starlight.

Messing up as a princess is something to be expected from her in these early years, so I would recommend to enjoy while she's still learning.

Edit: I just remembered that Twilight deliberately set up a meeting to befriend the Yaks before her realization with Starlight.

Edited August 12, 2018 by DonMaguz
Added an idea.

[ManaMinori 4,143]

6 minutes ago, DonMaguz said:

I wouldn't say 'horrible', but she definitely has a long way to go as Princess of Friendship, and I would say as a princess overall.

Even if we stretch the timeline as much as we could, Twilight has been a princess for less than a decade and has taken deliberate decisions about friendship in Equestria starting with offering herself as a mentor to Starlight.

Messing up as a princess is something to be expected from her in these early years, so I would recommend to enjoy while she's still learning.

pfft. I'd say. Snooping around in others' offices? Theft? Continuing to hold grudges with ponies who she had bad run in's in the past, not thinking they have potential to turn over a new leaf? Accusing others of running a scam when they are every bit as entitled to do whatever they so choose with their money, and not running scams of any sort? Yeah, she has a long, loooooong way to go, if you ask me. But the fact is she she doesn't learn anything. Even after Trixie. She still continues to hold grudges with ponies who set her off in the past. She still can't let go of her idol worship to Starswirl, (though I suppose not taking Starswirl's say so with the Friendship school's legitimacy, and continuing to push the subject is a start).

 

The writers paint her as being in the right in many of these situations, even though her actions and attitude aren't, so she doesn't take anything away at the end of these episodes, for her to progress from.

[Singe 2,109]

Twilight still has a long way to go in running a school, the flaws are still there since she opened it at the start of Season 8. To simplify, Celestia could open up a school and run it under the EEA guidance but Twilight couldn't do it. She made some mistakes and paid for it. Didn't like it and pulls the, "Screw the rules, I'm a princess." Also how quickly she forgets the danger the ponies were in that event which shut down her school. An amount of Neighsay's concerns and criticism of her being able to run a school are still reaffirmed over the season. RD/AJ field trip competition and the Mane 6 running off on a friendship quest, come to mind.

Also Twilight Sparkle has become very quick to make judgments and accuse more this season.

 

Edited August 12, 2018 by Singe

[BastementSparkle 20,310]

42 minutes ago, Nightmare Muffin said:

The fact that Twilight tried to monopolize the school is evident. Long before she even ran into Flim and Flam, her shock/ horror/ disgust/ concerns were out in the open. Right after she got Starswirl's latest letter, she bragged that "he could just come to my school" if he wanted to learn friendship, rather than being out and experiencing it, naturally, outside of a learning institution. Then when the advertisement was given to her by Cozy Glow for the Friendship University, she seemed paralyzed with shock, unable to process the information that a rival had appeared. Then, as she and Rarity went all the way to Las Pegasus, to check out the "competition", Twilight patronizingly asked "who would open another friendship school?" as if no one else had the right to. Rarity even advocated Twilight's attitude by saying "YOU'RE the PoF. What could this other school possibly have to offer?"

You seem to be trying to look at all of Twilight's actions and responses through all the worst lens possible. Twilight's little brag about how "Starswirl should come to her school" is just that, a little brag made because she's clearly proud of all the work she's put into her school. It's not like she's dismissing Starswirl's experiences or saying he can't learn friendship on his own. Starswirl is her idol, a pony she's looked up to for a long, long time, the thought of him coming to her school and getting to help him learn is obviously a thought she likes.

 As for her shock at a competitor popping up...I don't blame her for being a little upset, she's clearly put tons of effort into her school, and the idea of ponies deciding to go somewhere else instead is obviously going to be disappointing to her, because she's proud of what she's made and would love to help teach more ponies. Despite this, I'm sure if either somepony else had been running the university, or Flim and Flam had somehow turned out to be genuine, she would have backed off and let it go. It's ridiculous to try and paint Twilight in a bad light just for being disappointed at the thought of ponies choosing a school other than her own, she's allowed to have feelings of her own.

33 minutes ago, Nightmare Muffin said:

But if you want to look at the time after Twilight meets them, how about the line where she admits to Flim and Flam that she'll back off if the approval of the school came from someone whose opinions that she actually respected, and upon showing Starswirl to her (and in no way forcing him to agree with them), Twilight goes back on her word  at the drop of Trixie's hat and continues to push for the school's closure, because Starswirl didn't go to HER school. Monopolizing friendship at its best.

 

and can we not forget that she's holding a grudge on the brothers for their past actions, just as she did with Trixie. They're not even running a scam, in this episode. They're allowed to do whatever they please with their money. (and it's not an issue that they're charging for worksheets, either, because Starswirl mentioned "they don't even charge for classes". Twilight's lack of response to this makes it seem like SHE DOES charge, as she's the only other friendship school on the playing field)

I'm pretty sure Twilight's statement about backing off if she heard approval from somepony she respected was sarcastic, because she probably didn't expect that to happen at all. She doesn't trust Flim and Flam and judges them, because they've continuously pulled off shady things in the past, and never shown any signs of changing their ways. Even in this episode, during the song they immediately try to manipulate things to make it look like they've got Twilight's approval, and then manipulating her words to try and make her look bad in front of everypony, they don't seem to have turned over a new leaf at all, they're still just being Flim and Flam. Not to mention, they are running a scam! Rarity mentions they have students pay bits for the worksheets, because they have to cover costs for the school, but we clearly see that's not true later on, the money is being used to expand their resort, they're taking ponies money and lying to them about why, using what's supposed to be "School funds" on something totally different! That's not even to mention the plagiarizing of Twilight's book, or how they manipulate ponies like that guy with the sweater into giving them more. Starswirl only had to pay one bit for his stack of work-sheets, but when he tries to pay he only get's one ripped in half. They clearly aren't innocent here.

 As for if Twilight charges or not, I don't know. But if she does, she probably doesn't lie about where those funds are going, or blatantly try to guilt students into paying extra for her own greedy purposes.