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spoiler Is it just me, or are the Royal sisters quite weak.


Unity

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how did this even happen, half the fandom calls them gods and now too weak? if anything they are too strong,raisning the sun and moon in itself is a great feat, but it doesn't end there, celestia is pretty much the one every vilain measures against, whenever she falls it's to trickery and not raw power, when chrysalis defeated her in a raw power duel, she was surprised herself, and that was only to prove a point of how strong love is. so it actually enforces the argument that Celestia IS powerful imo, the fact that celestia needed the elements to defeat nightmare moon makes me believe that she is as strong as celestia,even without being Nightmare moon, Luna can trot through dreams, and control them to an extend, and i doubt that is something anypony else can do
Discord is of course an exception as he doesn't follow the rules, he just does things so you can't really hold it against them that they couldn't defeat him

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The sisters are 50/50 in their powers. One is that there's limitations ("great power comes great responsibility), while the other half is due to old age. Celestia and Luna have been alive for thousands of years and they've seen Equestria rapidly change during that time. It wouldn't be surprising if the two have been considering retirement for some time (or the more proper term abdication) and let the Six rule Equestria.  

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6 hours ago, Jedishy said:

She did that when she SAW an attack coming. Can you prove she is omniscient or can see all around her at all times? If not she is no more capable then you or I of stopping a cudgel to the back of the head or dart to the neck. She can stop most things she can see coming or has a reason to activate her shield. But if she does not see it and is hit unexpectedly that shield means nothing. Im sorry but the concepts do not wash unless there is a claim that she can see/know all or has some defensive magic that tells her when attacks about to happen. But the example of walking into a WAR and seeing yourself surrounded by foes leaping your way does not translate to stopping an ambush you do not expect or see coming. 

If your attacker can be a rock or some other bit of scenery or animal one second and thawp you over the dome the next well I dont care who you are you will take a nap and wake up captured. 

I said that was for overpowering, a dark or a smack to the head is another story 

 

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3 hours ago, Tenebrae said:

The Journal has been contradicted multiple times, namely the whole part of Starswirl and the Tree of Harmony has been completely changed. That to me is enough to no longer consider it canon.

Comics are secondary canon at best and they are often contradicted or they exaggerate things or make characters act differently then they do in the show, that's why I only use the show + films when discussing topics. Comics should only be used to re-enforce a point already made in the show.

When has she sut down Twilight? I don't remember that in the show.
Celestia defeated Sombra with the aid of her sister, so she didn't do it alone. Its never stated how Tirek was defeated the first time. She never defeats Nightmare Moon or Discord. So no, she doesn't really have a good tract record.

Yes Daybreaker is her full power, but she access that full power nilly willy, nor would she want to as it turns her insane.

Then we can agree to disagree on what we consider Canon. 

Twilight as a foal was in full on titan mode after the rainboom. She had glowing eyes and was floating meaning she was using her full powers. Celestia shut her down. 

She did not defeat Nightmare Moon or Discord? Hmm I seem to remember something about a banishment and being turned to stone but ok. 

 

6 minutes ago, Unity said:

I said that was for overpowering, a dark or a smack to the head is another story 

 

My point is they are changlings and work from ambush. Hard to beat an ambush and so its not a good indication of power. 

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46 minutes ago, Jedishy said:

Then we can agree to disagree on what we consider Canon. 

Twilight as a foal was in full on titan mode after the rainboom. She had glowing eyes and was floating meaning she was using her full powers. Celestia shut her down. 

She did not defeat Nightmare Moon or Discord? Hmm I seem to remember something about a banishment and being turned to stone but ok. 

 

My point is they are changlings and work from ambush. Hard to beat an ambush and so its not a good indication of power. 

Fair enough on the Canon part.

Celestia did not shut her down with magic, she only calmed her down.

Celestia only defeated those two with the Elements of Harmony so that is not a personal feat.

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3 minutes ago, Tenebrae said:

Celestia only defeated those two with the Elements of Harmony so that is not a personal feat.

The use of a tool does not take away the power needed to wield it. Further her own skill and power went into it as well. So that is as sensible to me as saying well you only won because you used a spell scroll or healing potion in battle in an rpg. Knowing our resources and when/how to use them is just as much part of our power/skillset as raw magic. The elements only have ever responded to ONE pony per attribute in the pillars or in the Mane Six. So tell me why that does not show power on the part of Celestia to be able to wield them solo. 

As for relaxing Twilight she had to reach into her magical shielding that she was floating in at that moment. Not something I have ever seen done by any other pony. Further, she has shown the ability to undo magic from powerful ponies like Twilights want it need it spell or protect the elements from even the powers of the close to all powerful discord. 

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50 minutes ago, Jedishy said:

The use of a tool does not take away the power needed to wield it. Further her own skill and power went into it as well. So that is as sensible to me as saying well you only won because you used a spell scroll or healing potion in battle in an rpg. Knowing our resources and when/how to use them is just as much part of our power/skillset as raw magic. The elements only have ever responded to ONE pony per attribute in the pillars or in the Mane Six. So tell me why that does not show power on the part of Celestia to be able to wield them solo. 

As for relaxing Twilight she had to reach into her magical shielding that she was floating in at that moment. Not something I have ever seen done by any other pony. Further, she has shown the ability to undo magic from powerful ponies like Twilights want it need it spell or protect the elements from even the powers of the close to all powerful discord. 

A tool does not equal personal power. Especially one as powerful as the elements of harmony that are magic McGuffins.
Celestia may have been able to use them solo but she was unable to use them effectively as they only banished Nightmare Moon instead of purifying her and even that was only temporary. Wielding the Elements only means that they find you worthy of it not that you are yourself very powerful, and at any rate Celestia and Luna were not able to use the full power of the Elements as they only manifested their true forms with the Current element bearers.

Magical shielding? Wut? Glowy magic =/= shielding. Of course you have not seen it done elsewhere since its the only instance it happens. You are assuming far too much.
Unicorn Twilight is weaker than Celestia so I would expect her to be able to deal with her spell.
Discord may be powerful but even he has limits.

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Just now, Tenebrae said:

Nightmare Moon instead of purifying her and even that was only temporary. Wielding the Elements only means that they find you worthy of it not that you are yourself very powerful, and at any rate Celestia and Luna were not able to use the full power of the Elements as they only manifested their true forms with the Current element bearers.

Magical shielding? Wut? Glowy magic =/= shielding. Of course you have not seen it done elsewhere since its the only instance it happens. You are assuming far too much.
Unicorn Twilight is weaker than Celestia so I would expect her to be able to deal with her spell.

She intended to banish her not purify her. Further, you assume they could not use them to their full powers but where is that backed up? They used to do whatever the chose to do with them so in what way were they limited? She lost her worthiness with her acts of not healing but instead banishing with them but that does not change the fact that no one else has ever been able to use them all at once. 

Further weaker? Prove this as she was a glowing eyed avatar at the time. I would posit that she always held the raw power and that her rise to Alicorn was about worthiness to rule not her powers. As for shield she had the magic bubble pop right at the end like any shield break we have seen in the show. ( or teleport ) so I will admit it could be a generic graphic for magic being popped or whatever its not a terrible assumption. 

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11 minutes ago, Jedishy said:

She intended to banish her not purify her. Further, you assume they could not use them to their full powers but where is that backed up? They used to do whatever the chose to do with them so in what way were they limited? She lost her worthiness with her acts of not healing but instead banishing with them but that does not change the fact that no one else has ever been able to use them all at once. 

Further weaker? Prove this as she was a glowing eyed avatar at the time. I would posit that she always held the raw power and that her rise to Alicorn was about worthiness to rule not her powers. As for shield she had the magic bubble pop right at the end like any shield break we have seen in the show. ( or teleport ) so I will admit it could be a generic graphic for magic being popped or whatever its not a terrible assumption. 

We don't know what she intended. Banishing your sister for 1000 thousand years seems needlessly cruel and our of character for Celestia so I doubt so really meant for the elements to do that. I also doubt that the elements do whatever the user wishes as I don't think the elements could ever be used to commit a terrible act. Also the Mane Six were probably not trying to purify Nightmare Moon since they had no idea she was Luna, to them Nightmare was just evil.

Yes I am pretty damn sure Unicorn Twilight is weaker than Celestia, especially when she was just a foal magic outburst or not.
I maintain that Twilight did not have a shield, and anyways Celestia's horn didn't glow so she was not using magic, all she did was put her hoof on Twilight's shoulder without any resistance.

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(edited)
6 minutes ago, Tenebrae said:

We don't know what she intended. Banishing your sister for 1000 thousand years seems needlessly cruel and our of character for Celestia so I doubt so really meant for the elements to do that. I also doubt that the elements do whatever the user wishes as I don't think the elements could ever be used to commit a terrible act. Also the Mane Six were probably not trying to purify Nightmare Moon since they had no idea she was Luna, to them Nightmare was just evil.

Yes I am pretty damn sure Unicorn Twilight is weaker than Celestia, especially when she was just a foal magic outburst or not.
I maintain that Twilight did not have a shield, and anyways Celestia's horn didn't glow so she was not using magic, all she did was put her hoof on Twilight's shoulder without any resistance.

Im sort of just throwing myself into the conversation.

But i do think that Celestia is for sure without a doubt more powerful than twilight is, she is thousands of years old and while that age does not exactly equate to raw power to shows she is even strong enough to live that long in the first place. Earlier on in the thread I pretty much said that I think the reason NMM and daybreaker are so strong is because they do not hold back, and i think that has a big part to play. I also dont necessarily think Any pony is stronger than the next which sort of contradicts my point above. Celestia has the power of a leader and Twilight bass the power of friendship, it just so happens that the power of a leader is stronger in its raw dorm. Also again, Celestia is very old and had alot of time to become so powerful.

And also while 1000 years is no short amount of time to be locked away it was the only option, we dont know what it was like so maybe Luna was just sort of sleeping the whole time. Also, Luna certainly thought her punishment was more than fair, and it wasnt really even, punishment more of containment until the time was right. I dont think she was supposed to be imprisoned for any specific amount of time, just until she could be properly dealt with.

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6 minutes ago, Tenebrae said:

We don't know what she intended. Banishing your sister for 1000 thousand years seems needlessly cruel and our of character for Celestia so I doubt so really meant for the elements to do that. I also doubt that the elements do whatever the user wishes as I don't think the elements could ever be used to commit a terrible act. Also the Mane Six were probably not trying to purify Nightmare Moon since they had no idea she was Luna, to them Nightmare was just evil.

Yes I am pretty damn sure Unicorn Twilight is weaker than Celestia, especially when she was just a foal magic outburst or not.
I maintain that Twilight did not have a shield, and anyways Celestia's horn didn't glow so she was not using magic, all she did was put her hoof on Twilight's shoulder without any resistance.

As we do not know her intent or if the elements will act without intent I guess it comes down to what we think happened sans any more athorative source. 

Most magical systems in fiction or in real life hold that you are born with your full power and learn to tap into it. Further as we did not see her horn as she touched twilight but only after we do not know for sure that she did not use magic at first to break through. So again both of these come down to what we feel happens. Thus Id wager we put forward our points, we see it differently and are not likely to change each others views without expanded material to work with. 

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4 minutes ago, Jedishy said:

As we do not know her intent or if the elements will act without intent I guess it comes down to what we think happened sans any more athorative source. 

Most magical systems in fiction or in real life hold that you are born with your full power and learn to tap into it. Further as we did not see her horn as she touched twilight but only after we do not know for sure that she did not use magic at first to break through. So again both of these come down to what we feel happens. Thus Id wager we put forward our points, we see it differently and are not likely to change each others views without expanded material to work with. 

I'll agree that since we are never told her intent, assuming anything can be fallacious.

Actually I know very few magical systems that hold that you are born with your full power. Regardless you cannot use this to assume the way magic works in MLP, that would be a huge assumption. I rewatched the scene and the magic surrounding Twilight doesn't look like a shield at all, and Celestia's hoof moves in with no resistance or "break" in the shield.

It seems we just see things differently, I guess.

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16 minutes ago, Unity said:

Im sort of just throwing myself into the conversation.

But i do think that Celestia is for sure without a doubt more powerful than twilight is, she is thousands of years old and while that age does not exactly equate to raw power to shows she is even strong enough to live that long in the first place. Earlier on in the thread I pretty much said that I think the reason NMM and daybreaker are so strong is because they do not hold back, and i think that has a big part to play. I also dont necessarily think Any pony is stronger than the next which sort of contradicts my point above. Celestia has the power of a leader and Twilight bass the power of friendship, it just so happens that the power of a leader is stronger in its raw dorm. Also again, Celestia is very old and had alot of time to become so powerful.

And also while 1000 years is no short amount of time to be locked away it was the only option, we dont know what it was like so maybe Luna was just sort of sleeping the whole time. Also, Luna certainly thought her punishment was more than fair, and it wasnt really even, punishment more of containment until the time was right. I dont think she was supposed to be imprisoned for any specific amount of time, just until she could be properly dealt with.

It still sucks to return 1000 years later and everything and everyone you knew is gone or has changed. But perhaps I am projecting too much realism into what essentially is a TV show for little girls.

The problem with power levels in MLP is that we are never given an accurate measurement on how powerful one individual is compared to another. All we know is that there some or stronger than others but never by how much.

So far we know:
Discord > Celestia + Luna
Starswirl > Alicorn Twilight
Celestia + Luna > Sombra
Pony Of Shadows > Alicorn Twilight
Pony Of Shadows > Starswirl
Amped Chrysaliss > Celestia
Chrysaliss < Alicorn Twilight
Nightmare Moon < Daybreaker
Alicorn Twilight >= Starlight
Nightmare Moon > Celestia (presumably)

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4 hours ago, Tenebrae said:

It still sucks to return 1000 years later and everything and everyone you knew is gone or has changed. But perhaps I am projecting too much realism into what essentially is a TV show for little girls.

The problem with power levels in MLP is that we are never given an accurate measurement on how powerful one individual is compared to another. All we know is that there some or stronger than others but never by how much.

So far we know:
Discord > Celestia + Luna
Starswirl > Alicorn Twilight
Celestia + Luna > Sombra
Pony Of Shadows > Alicorn Twilight
Pony Of Shadows > Starswirl
Amped Chrysaliss > Celestia
Chrysaliss < Alicorn Twilight
Nightmare Moon < Daybreaker
Alicorn Twilight >= Starlight
Nightmare Moon > Celestia (presumably)

I really dont think this is right.

There are sooooo many factors that can determine who is actually the strongest.

And the thing is, villians are so strong because they do not hold back so they dont care if there is a civilian caught in the crossfire which is why they appear so strong.

Celestia, Luna and most of the rest care more about other Poneis enough to not obliterate them and their things while in a battle which would surely be a problem if they fought at full power.

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5 minutes ago, Unity said:

And the thing is, villians are so strong because they do not hold back so they dont care if there is a civilian caught in the crossfire which is why they appear so strong.

That's because villains only care about themselves. As far as they're concerned, it's not their fault civilians got hurt, but the civilians' fault for getting in the way in the first place.

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11 hours ago, TransitPony said:

The sisters are 50/50 in their powers. One is that there's limitations ("great power comes great responsibility), while the other half is due to old age.

That's funny. Celestia didn't look like old age was affecting when she started prancing after Twilight asked her to be the lead role in her play for her once-a-versary.

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7 minutes ago, heavens-champion said:

That's funny. Celestia didn't look like old age was affecting when she started prancing after Twilight asked her to be the lead role in her play for her once-a-versary.

And also, if we saw Celestia and Luna age as  fast Cadance ages even though she is still Alicorn, things would be quite different.

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8 hours ago, Unity said:

I really dont think this is right.

There are sooooo many factors that can determine who is actually the strongest.

And the thing is, villians are so strong because they do not hold back so they dont care if there is a civilian caught in the crossfire which is why they appear so strong.

Celestia, Luna and most of the rest care more about other Poneis enough to not obliterate them and their things while in a battle which would surely be a problem if they fought at full power.

That's more of an assumption than anything. Its so easy to say, and almost impossible to prove.
Of course factors are important, but so is the amount of power one wields.

 

7 hours ago, Unity said:

And also, if we saw Celestia and Luna age as  fast Cadance ages even though she is still Alicorn, things would be quite different.

Cadance has only aged until adulthood, as have Celestia and Luna. So for all we know Cadance will also life for a long time.

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I think with Celestia our perspective is skewed by the fact that we only see the absolute best of the best in a show like this. The strongest villains, the most skilled unicorns. Put Celestia or Luna against 99% of the population and they'd wipe the floor with them.

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