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Issues with the School of Friendship Arc


ManaMinori

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3 hours ago, RulesofRarity said:

I can't speak for others who criticize Starlight's character but for me THE major problem with her is her tendency to overreact and yes, this tendency does normally make situations worse not better. Her mind controlling the Mane 5 in order to solve friendship lessons more effectively made the situation worse not better. Did she learn a lesson here? No. Because in A Royal Problem, she once again uses her magic to sidestep a problem after the Princesses don't listen to her. What would she have done if her spell somehow failed? It's a shame because she was on the right track about how to solve the friendship problem between the sisters, her treating them like regular ponies and not princesses was spot on. What would she have done if her spell somehow failed?

I see, so let me take this in two parts: When you talk about controlling the Mane 5, yes you are absolutely 100% right she made the problem worse, but what exactly is the problem? In that episode it's not her reliance on magic if that's what your thinking. That kind of episode would go like "Okay Starlight, I want you to do some friendship lessons explicitly without magic" "lol Twilight that's too hard so imma use magic anyway" "oh Starlight what am I going to do with you?" What really happened was "you're going great on magic lessons Starlight, I just wish you'd put the same amount of effort on your friendship ones" "Hm, Twilight's expectations are high on me just like my magic, so wait maybe if I use some magic to help out I can get things done easier" "Starlight that was the wrong way to approach that why'd you do it?" "I did it because I know how much you want me to succeed and I'm just doing what I know I'm good at to help me not fail" "You misunderstand, friendship lessons are not about succeeding at the task but enjoying it with friends" THAT'S the problem she had with the Mane 5, she was seeing them as lessons to pass and not ponies to socialize with, and that's how she solves it is by treating them and her mistake on them with dignity. You analyze the writing as very black and white: "why'd you brainwash the Mane 5" "Because they don't listen to me" "No why really did you do it" "Because I'm not understanding how to approach this lesson and did it wrong" This can be applied to other rash decisions as well "Why'd you blow up the weather factory" "Because I don't want winter to come" "No really why?" "Because I don't want to face the reality of losing Tank" or "Why'd you try to banish that pony?" "Because I hate anypony who hangs out with Fluttershy" "No really why?" "Because I'm afraid of losing the one friend I have to someone else" This is what I mean when the show takes advantage of characters to give extreme lessons to teach morals. No kid has the power to brainwash others, destroy building or banish people but they can learn from that kind of exaggerated lesson a real one of a personal conflict. But I see you're saying this kind of writing sidesteps the problem leading to the exaggerated consequences so I'll get to that point.

With your telling of "A Royal Problem" you were looking for a less magic used solution but why, why is that a problem for the episode. Here's the thing the episode is not about Starlight, it is not about her worrying how to solve the problem right because she is the solution. But okay you liked that she was treating the sisters as real ponies and not royals but then what? What would your solution have been? Her solution was literally putting themselves in each other's shoes so that they can experience what the other goes through because it's clear just teling each other what's hard about themselves isn't enough as they just resorted to self centered viewpoints. Did you want her to just keep trying to talk it out, but how interesting is that for this fantasy show? How is that taking advantage of the characters you have? You want to know what happens if the spell didn't work, then she'll try another approach because she is the solution here. If you're wanting to see her fail and learn consequences of failing well then you're expecting a different episode. This episode from it's inception is focused on the princesses facing a conflict and learning something not Starlight. If you want to see her failing a spell or a decision that's "A Matter of Principals" for the spell and "Road to Friendship" for the decision and she learns very clearly why what she did was the wrong approach.

I apologize for the long response, I am just very passionate in characterization in the show. I'm not certain if continuing this will deviate from the initial thread but if you would like to continue this conversation just DM me and I would be happy to do so.

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On 8/19/2018 at 11:52 AM, Nightmare Muffin said:

There was a rather interesting analysis of Starlight that I came across by NuvaPrime on dA, which went into detail on Starlight's lack of development, and how- in a nutshell- she really doesn't deserve her "graduate of friendship"/ "Guidance Counselor" role and title, because she's proven that she really isn't; and how, with "On the road to Friendship" , it was made clear.

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So it seems to address the issue that Starlight, rather than coming to the realization that she's ever truly in the wrong, or have crossed a line with her friends, when something results due to her own actions- mind controlling the mane 6 to get a friendship lesson done quicker, switching cutie marks of the Princesses without their consent, endangering the hive of Changelings, infecting three innocent bystanders with her hostile emotions that were bottled up, and now trading off other people's personal property without consideration for them....it all seems like Starlight really isn't learning much of anything, and certainly not deserving of her status or titles of Friendship School councilor or graduate of the Princess of Friendship, because there's a trend of having her cone to the realization of all these scenarios- not that she crossed a line and offended or hurt her friends, but due to inconvenience on herself somehow. Her apologies aren't really genuine because of that, so it just  keeps happening.

First, she return because moving the caravan was too hard, it’s because traveling alone was miserable. The important of this subtle distinction is that she didn’t value Trixe for her labor, but for her companionship. You could argue she’s still being selfish, but it’s at least a slightly more generous interpretation of her behavior. 

And that’s the thing. It’s not the that Starlight Glimmer was being selfish in all the instances you listed, it’s that you interpreted it that way. All those instances could also be interpreted as her trying to help others, she just didn’t realize they didn’t see things the way she did. For example, here Glimmer saw that the crowded caravan was the source of both their problems, and by getting a more spacious caravan they could get along again. She didn’t realize Trixie cared so much about her wagon, and didn’t know she had rejected Hoo’Far’s offer already, she just saw a new opportunity to solve the problem and she jumped on it. Yes, it wasn’t Starlight Glimmer’s caravan to sell, but the issue wasn’t that she’s selfish, but that she’s impulsive. It’s who she is, it’s not a trait that’s going to go away by studying friendship more. 

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On 9/3/2018 at 8:20 PM, Nightmare Muffin said:

it has taken me a while to fully understand why season 8's theme of having a school didn't gel with me, and a lot of other people. It seemed really out of place for the Mane 6 to be setting up a school, the show itself addressed the issue, but just as quickly waved it away, the episodes where we got teaching lessons with them seemed like they weren't all that qualified to teach, and even when we got said school, there were many unanswered questions that still remain. It wasn't until I read this article by Adam Grant, an organizational psychologist (linked below), that I truly understood why FiM's season 8 and its Friendship school with the Mane 6 as its teachers doesn't work as it should.

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I am not claiming any content or thoughts expressed in the quotes under the spoiler section of this OP as my own nor posting it as such.

Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/25/opinion/sunday/college-professors-experts-advice.html

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put as simply as possible, the Mane 6 aren't qualified to teach because they're experts at it, and while that may seem good and perfect as far as credentials go, because they are masters of the art and have done so since long ago, they are too far removed from the introductory course of the subject for it to be relevant to use who are just trying to learn the art of friendship, and it would be far more beneficial to learn from say, a graduate student (such as the CMC).

As the psychologist Sian Beilock, now the president of Barnard College, writes,   “As you get better and better at what you do, your ability to communicate your understanding or to help others learn that skill often gets worse and worse.”

While they are the elements of harmony, the show has demonstrated that they AREN’T masters of friendship. They are constantly making mistakes, if they weren’t we wouldn’t have a show! So it sounds like they actually fit in the category the article described as good teachers. They still have no pedological training though. 

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On 9/10/2018 at 8:25 PM, Ganondox said:

While they are the elements of harmony, the show has demonstrated that they AREN’T masters of friendship. They are constantly making mistakes, if they weren’t we wouldn’t have a show! So it sounds like they actually fit in the category the article described as good teachers. They still have no pedological training though. 

Its not even about them needing to be "masters" of friendship. I'm saying that the holes and contrivances in having the school, and how its been handled would still be and ARE present. In the quote that you quoted, the evidence is there that someone who "mastered" or graduated a long time ago in a certsin subject is less qualified to teach it as opposed to someone who more recently graduated or learned from X subect, since the basics would be fresher and more accessable to be taught to others, such as the School 6. 

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4 hours ago, Nightmare Muffin said:

Its not even about them needing to be "masters" of friendship. I'm saying that the holes and contrivances in having the school, and how its been handled would still be and ARE present. In the quote that you quoted, the evidence is there that someone who "mastered" or graduated a long time ago in a certsin subject is less qualified to teach it as opposed to someone who more recently graduated or learned from X subect, since the basics would be fresher and more accessable to be taught to others, such as the School 6. 

The point you're missing is that they didn't graduate a long time ago, they're still learning! 

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Yes, Yes, YES! Finally, finally, FINALLY, somebody gets it! A School of Friendship is ridiculous! Friendship is not something you can teach in a classroom! It can't be taught, it can only be learned! Celestia didn't teach Twilight friendship in a classroom, neither did Twilight Starlight. She set her off on a path to learn about it as she lived her life! That is the only way to learn about friendship! It's not something you can just teach in a classroom, with tests and worksheets and exam papers! I mean, what the heck!?

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13 hours ago, PurpleWonderPower said:

Yes, Yes, YES! Finally, finally, FINALLY, somebody gets it! A School of Friendship is ridiculous! Friendship is not something you can teach in a classroom! It can't be taught, it can only be learned! Celestia didn't teach Twilight friendship in a classroom, neither did Twilight Starlight. She set her off on a path to learn about it as she lived her life! That is the only way to learn about friendship! It's not something you can just teach in a classroom, with tests and worksheets and exam papers! I mean, what the heck!?

it blatantly contradicts the lesson of the A plot from "The Crystalling".

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  • 2 years later...
On 2018-08-11 at 10:08 PM, BastementSparkle said:

Okay, the issue I have when people criticize Twilight for trying to teach Friendship to other races using her Friendship school is that...well, it's not only for other races? Ponies are going to the Friendship school too, heck most of the students seem to be ponies. People keep making such a big deal out of the other races attending while totally ignoring this factor. If Twi had made a friendship school and then all the students were ponies, I bet you someone on the forums would ask "Hey, why aren't there any of the other races?" instead.

  If Twilight wants to try and teach friendship, I don't see why it's so wrong to try and teach it to every creature who wants to learn. Plus, this idea that Twi's assuming that the other creatures don't know anything about friendship is kind of silly, unless you think she also believes ponies don't know anything about friendship, cause there's a lot of them in the school too, like I said.

 Also, as for some of your other criticism. The idea of a "School of Friendship" isn't entirely ridiculous. The school helps provide a safe, friendly environment for ponies and other creatures to meet and make friends with each other, they likely have plenty of downtime in the morning, in between and after classes to just hang out together. The lessons and teachers are there to serve as a general guideline to help set the students on the right track, and help them deal with problems, as well as get the students interacting with each other in class. The school clearly isn't meant to be your typical school with "One size fits all" lessons, that was the whole point of the premiere, that it wouldn't work like that.

 The fact that the students started getting along with each other outside of class is still, in a way, proof that the school works. The Student six would have likely never met without the school existing. They all quickly became friends because they went to the school, and while that was mostly on them, now they get to stay together there, learning how to be friends, with the Mane Six and Starlight there to help guide them.

I've been looking for a positive answer that shows the benefits of having a school of friendship for years. Thank you

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The biggest problem with the Friendship School is that the very concept of a friendship school in and of itself is dumb as fuck

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I always thought the idea of this was incredibly stupid. It does not fit the series whatsoever, Twilight being made into a Princess of Friendship sort of ruined her character to me. You have Starlight, who once ruled a town under a dictatorship becoming school counselor? That is just stupid to me. Plus the student 6 were utterly boring and stupid characters. I wish it never happened.

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The place was established in an area of not-so-much open land with even a lake surrounding it.  The Mane 6 are locked-in with so many jobs, they would pass out in exhaustion, without consuming the 3 meals required to survive:scoots:  Also, former villains get to have:sealed: prominent jobs there.  No security ponies to defend the place.  Dishonest professional baseball horses who bang trash cans:LunaMCM: would run this place smoothly.  Finally, no background check on a certain filly with a rook cutie mark:baconmane:  

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