PurpleWonderPower

Why I Hate MLP Season 8

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1 hour ago, KH7672 said:

I'm not certain where you're getting this characterization. This is the final exchange of Viva Las Pegasus:

Applejack is complementing them on their conniving and cheating characterization there is nothing there about putting it behind them especially when they quite literally scam ponies to come watch a show with no performers because all their focus is on the price. That is exactly the scam they run in Friendship U give ponies the main draw but slide a little monetary payment under their noses. They are business ponies to the end and proud of their tactics because when they put them to use with little to no interference there is nothing wanting them to change. So reforming them does nothing, all they need is a kick to keep their scheming in line but no story has ever made them feel like the bad guys to themselves, because again this comes down to what I said before with the character themself needing to benefit from such a reformation. Friendship U didn't ruin Flim & Flam's reputation it just impeded some expansion progres they most likely scalp from casinos and hotels now a more civil approach since the school market is off the line. They have no internal desire to change, so reforming them does nothing.

If you want to talk about what they should have been, that's a subjective opinion on your expectations for the episode and in some cases yours can be better by how you see the characters. But objectively there was nothing wrong with the outcome because of how they have been characterized.

I mean "after Viva Las Pegasus", as in, they teamed up with Applejack and Fluttershy and made a great team. And in MLP, that is the kind of stuff that happens when a character should be reformed.

And the "FLIM AND FLAM!" bit wasn't conniving or cheating, or scamming. They were just using their slyness and showpony attitudes to make something sound good, when actually it was just an empty theatre. But they didn't lie. The customers would get exactly what Flim and Flam promised them. It's just that Flim and Flam's showpony voices can make anything sound worth buying.

And about them having no "internal desire to change", what about Discord? Or Princess Luna? Or Starlight Glimmer? They had absolutely no desire to change, either, and they're the three biggest reformed villains in the series.

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On 9/15/2018 at 4:46 AM, PurpleWonderPower said:

The songs have gotten considerably tackier in Season 8. MLP songs used to have the most incredible tunes and absolutely amazing lyrics. Just take a look at some of the previous songs's lyrics. For example, The Pony I Want To Be.

If I'm a diamond
Then why do I feel so rough?
I'm as strong as a stone
Even that's not enough

There's something jagged in me
And I've made such mistakes
I thought that diamonds were hard
Though I feel I could break

Would you believe
That I've always wished I could be somepony else?
Yet I can't see
What I need to do to be the pony I want to be

I've been told my whole life
What to do, what to say
Nopony showed me that
There might be some better way

And now I feel like I'm lost
I don't know what to do
The ground is sinking away
I'm about to fall through


Those are incredible, high-quality lyrics that fit perfectly with the tune, and also add loads of feeling into Diamond Tiara's problems. They use word play and metaphors and loads of thought. In Season 8, the lyrics of tons of songs are just so unbelievably tacky. For instance, Friendship Always Wins.

This school of friendship is for all of us
A place where we belong
Where we all learn to share and trust
The only rule here is to find your way
And friendship always wins at the end of the day


The lyrics are just so blunt and bland. They don't put any feeling into the words like they did in previous songs. 

This is blatant cherry picking. I could use Let the Rainbow Remind You to show how shallow the older songs were and use We're Friendship Bound as an example of how good the newer songs and be just as right as you.

You don't seem to acknowledge the very "blunt and bland" lyrics of some older songs because that would ruin your argument.

I don't think MLP songs have ever been consistent. Season 2 had The Smile Song, but it also had Love is in Bloom.

Edited by bigbertha

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37 minutes ago, PurpleWonderPower said:

And about them having no "internal desire to change", what about Discord? Or Princess Luna? Or Starlight Glimmer? They had absolutely no desire to change, either, and they're the three biggest reformed villains in the series.

I see I may be taking a skewed approach for Flim & Flam but, I can certain back up my own stance by your query:

Discord-Fluttershy fed into an insecurity of not having any friends. He may have all the power for chaos but that is nothing when he is physically driving ponies that want to care about him away. His desire to change was to make Fluttershy happy and to give himself a friend.

Luna-I mean she was more physically reformed by the elements stripping the darkness from her but after that she sees the error of her ways, her love for her sister and vows to not be jealous but change for the both of them and the kingdom, because she is loved too.

Starlight (pfft too easy)- After she revealed why she hated cutie marks Twilight took a different approach. The choice to reform was no longer just about saving Equestria from time manipulations, it was also about helping a misguided pony find security in friends with different cutie marks. Starlight wanted friends and it helped when she was offered the chance at a happier life without clinging to revenge or distrust in cutie marks.

All of those three had some internal insecurity or issue that they faced with their reformation (Gilda-desire to rekindle a lost friendship, Diamond Tiara-change from the attitude her mother was imposing on her, Tempest-acceptance despite the fact she is physically impaired, Stygian-self-gratification through his own inner strength and his peers and not by mysterious power) Flim & Flam and Lightning Dust do not (at least it is not apparent). Despite being shady business ponies those two see nothing wrong with how they run things, they just have to be more careful with their approaches, but internally nothing is hurting them. They aren't blacklisted or ridiculed by their actions, because they see nothing wrong with themselves so why would others. The same goes for Lightning Dust. Sure she may at one point felt shame in herself for making not being a Wonderbolt and you can certainly dislike that ignoring of possible characterization but from what was presented she is perfectly happy with her life. This is no facade she's putting on to appear better than the Wonderbolts and Dash, the Washouts is a well mannered alternative that she created to fulfill her desires. One she is happy with and only unhappy when somepony ruins it. She may have a rivalry toward Rainbow Dash but it's nothing personal. It's the type of rivalry of you and you're rival opening competing shops. You do so because you want to run things differently not because you want to be where the other is now. Lightning Dust shows no regret for the choices that led her to this point, she even says she would have done the stunt if Scootaloo wasn't going be as serious about this as she was and she sees nothing wrong with that, so there is nothing internally going to make her want to change the lifestyle she is living because she's loving it.

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15 minutes ago, bigbertha said:

This is blatant cherry picking. I could use Let the Rainbow Remind You to show how shallow the older songs were and use We're Friendship Bound as an example of how good the newer songs and be just as right as you.

You don't seem to acknowledge the very "blunt and bland" lyrics of some older songs because that would ruin your argument.

I don't think MLP songs have ever been consistent. Season 2 had The Smile Song, but it also had Love is in Bloom.

I know some earlier songs did have blunt and bland lyrics, but what I am getting at is the ratio of creative lyrics to tacky lyrics has gone down a lot in Season 8. Like how there are, say, three or four bad episodes in each season, but in Season 8, it is practically the whole season. I'm just talking about majority, not necessarily every single song.

6 minutes ago, KH7672 said:

I see I may be taking a skewed approach for Flim & Flam but, I can certain back up my own stance by your query:

Discord-Fluttershy fed into an insecurity of not having any friends. He may have all the power for chaos but that is nothing when he physically driving ponies that want to care about him away. His desire to change was to make Fluttershy happy and to give himself a friend.

Luna-I mean she was more physically reformed by the elements stripping the darkness from her but after that she sees the error of her ways, her love for her sister and vows to not be jealous but change for the both of them and the kingdom, because she is loved too.

Starlight (pfft too easy)- After she revealed why she hated cutie marks Twilight took a different approach. The choice to reform was no longer just about saving Equestria from time manipulations, it was also about helping a misguided pony find security in friends with different cutie marks. Starlight wanted friends and it helped when she was offered the chance at a happier life without clinging to revenge or distrust in cutie marks.

All of those three had some internal insecurity or issue that they faced with their reformation (Gilda-desire to rekindle a lost friendship, Diamond Tiara-change from the attitude her mother was imposing on her, Tempest-acceptance despite the fact she is physically impaired, Stygian-self-gratification through his own inner strength and his peers and not by mysterious power) Flim & Flam and Lightning Dust do not (at least it is not apparent). Despite being shady business ponies those two see nothing wrong with how they run things, they just have to be more careful with their approaches, but internally nothing is hurting them. They aren't blacklisted or ridiculed by their actions, because they see nothing wrong with themselves so why would others. The same goes for Lightning Dust. Sure she may at one point felt shame in herself for making not being a Wonderbolt and you can certainly dislike that ignoring of possible characterization but from what was presented she is perfectly happy with her life. This is no facade she's putting on to appear better than the Wonderbolts and Dash, the Washouts is a well mannered alternative that she created to fulfill her desires. One she is happy with and only unhappy when somepony ruins it. She may have a rivalry toward Rainbow Dash but it's nothing personal. It's the type of rivalry of you and you're rival opening competing shops. You do so because you want to run things differently not because you want to be where the other is now. Lightning Dust shows no regret for the choices that led her to this point so there is nothing internally going to make her want to change the lifestyle she is living because she's loving it.

I know a lot of the villains are villains because of insecurities and traumas and jealousy and that kind of stuff. But, for instance, Discord, was evil right from the beginning, and was just evil because that was who he was. He wasn't a villain because he didn't have any friends. He reformed because Fluttershy became his friend and made him realize that he didn't want to lose that.The same thing could easily happen with Flim and Flam or Lightning Dust.

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3 minutes ago, PurpleWonderPower said:

I know a lot of the villains are villains because of insecurities and traumas and jealousy and that kind of stuff. But, for instance, Discord, was evil right from the beginning, and was just evil because that was who he was. He wasn't a villain because he didn't have any friends. He reformed because Fluttershy became his friend and made him realize that he didn't want to lose that.The same thing could easily happen with Flim and Flam or Lightning Dust.

But why?

Why do them, as characters in the shows version of Equestria, with their entire characterization, conflicts, and consequences NEED to be reformed. The fact of the matter is they are happy with how they are and there is nothing to fix from their viewpoint, so what are you going to fix?

I have no problems with you wanting things to come out differently (I myself have that sentiment with Diamond Tiara) but the fact of the matter is there is no reason to reform them besides a mindset and outcome you have in your mind that is not present in the show.

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7 minutes ago, KH7672 said:

But why?

Why do them, as characters in the shows version of Equestria, with their entire characterization, conflicts, and consequences NEED to be reformed. The fact of the matter is they are happy with how they are and there is nothing to fix from their viewpoint, so what are you going to fix?

I have no problems with you wanting things to come out differently (I myself have that sentiment with Diamond Tiara) but the fact of the matter is there is no reason to reform them besides a mindset and outcome you have in your mind that is not present in the show.

Because they're really terrific characters, and would make ever terrific-er good guys. If they're antagonists, the makers have to keep making them do bad stuff (e.g.Friendship University, the Washouts), which just ruins the fact that they are such terrific characters, because it's rubbish to watch Flim and Flam get their characters ruined and act all nasty and evil and keep losing. Lightning Dust too.

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6 minutes ago, PurpleWonderPower said:

Because they're really terrific characters, and would make ever terrific-er good guys. If they're antagonists, the makers have to keep making them do bad stuff (e.g.Friendship University, the Washouts), which just ruins the fact that they are such terrific characters, because it's rubbish to watch Flim and Flam get their characters ruined and act all nasty and evil and keep losing. Lightning Dust too.

Other than the very end of the episode, where the situation brought out Lightning's worst traits, I thought Lightning came off very well in Washouts. She was just getting on with her own life. She wasn't out for revenge or anything. She didn't have an evil plan. She offered a spot to Dash in what I can only assume was completely good faith. She just didn't become a full on ally at the end.

And with Flim and Flam, while I agree with your points on their vocabulary, them being villains I thought was interesting because it's a dynamic we haven't seen before. An antagonist who helps the good guys but then remains bad at the end. Enemy Mine is a trope the show has never really done before.

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14 minutes ago, PurpleWonderPower said:

Because they're really terrific characters, and would make ever terrific-er good guys. If they're antagonists, the makers have to keep making them do bad stuff (e.g.Friendship University, the Washouts), which just ruins the fact that they are such terrific characters, because it's rubbish to watch Flim and Flam get their characters ruined and act all nasty and evil and keep losing. Lightning Dust too.

I understand what you mean but that is not what I am asking. I need you to understand where I'm coming from, to look at this not as an outside consumer but as the characters themselves. I presented exactly what I meant. If you see yourself as Discord, as Luna, as Starlight you see exactly why they want and need to change. Now put yourself as Flim & Flam or as Lightning Dust and where is your issue, what are you unhappy about, what do you need to reform?

THAT is the internal viewpoint I'm talking about and is a crucial part in writing a character effectively.

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17 minutes ago, KH7672 said:

I understand what you mean but that is not what I am asking. I need you to understand where I'm coming from, to look at this not as an outside consumer but as the characters themselves. I presented exactly what I meant. If you see yourself as Discord, as Luna, as Starlight you see exactly why they want and need to change. Now put yourself as Flim & Flam or as Lightning Dust and where is your issue, what are you unhappy about, what do you need to reform?

THAT is the internal viewpoint I'm talking about and is a crucial part in writing a character effectively.

There is some truth in what you're saying, but you don't have to be unhappy about something to reform. Sometimes you can be perfectly happy, then open your heart to something new and then not want to lose it. Like Discord. He was perfectly happy, but then when Fluttershy befriended him, he realized he now had something he didn't want to lose. Flim and Flam and Lightning Dust have just not been put in the situation where they open their hearts to friendship yet. They are like Discord: they are not just characters who are naturally in the situation, they are characters that need to be put in the situation. Cause Discord was not twisted with jealousy or anything, he was just put in the situation of friendship and opened his heart to it. Flim and Flam are a lot like Discord: they have absolutely no sense of vengeance, jealousy or grudges, nor are they unhappy with anything, and just need to be put in the right situation to open their hearts to friendship. Like if Flim and Applejack got close, and then Flim didn't want to lose that by being a conpony. Or if Lightning Dust made friends with Rainbow Dash. Basically the same way as in Keep Calm And Flutter On.

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49 minutes ago, gingerninja666 said:

Other than the very end of the episode, where the situation brought out Lightning's worst traits, I thought Lightning came off very well in Washouts. She was just getting on with her own life. She wasn't out for revenge or anything. She didn't have an evil plan. She offered a spot to Dash in what I can only assume was completely good faith. She just didn't become a full on ally at the end.

And with Flim and Flam, while I agree with your points on their vocabulary, them being villains I thought was interesting because it's a dynamic we haven't seen before. An antagonist who helps the good guys but then remains bad at the end. Enemy Mine is a trope the show has never really done before.

I know it's a dynamic we haven't seen before, and it's fine for bad guys to temporarily help goodies but remain bad, but the point is, in Friendship University, it's like Flim and Flam never even helped goodies at all. It's not like they were reluctant to help AJ and Fluttershy, and it's not like they dislike Applejack and her friends or anything, so it would never just be like it never even happened. It just doesn't tally with the timeline, plus they act really evil in Friendship University and Flim and Flam are not evil, they are just bad.

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16 hours ago, Singe said:

It seems more an exaggeration that Twilight needs an entire school with the sole focus on teaching an entire friendship curriculum when at most, social skills can be taught on a smaller scale like a single class. What they're trying to create is friendship experiences in an artificial controlled setting.

Based on what we have seen, the school doesn’t actually solely teach friendship, it also in the very least teaches history. It’s hard to judge the school when we have no idea what the actual curriculum is. 

People develop social skills over the course of a lifetime, why should it only be taught once in a single class? 

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5 hours ago, starlightfan1 said:

And let’s not forget the fact that Starlight was useless this season. And how twilight hogged the entire season.

I wouldn’t say she was useless, she’s the one who convinced Twilight to reopen the school after she uncharacteristicly gave up in the premiere. Starlight also helped solve the situation in “Marks for Effort” and “The End in Friend”, she just wasn’t as annoyingly prominent as she was last season. 

 

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10 minutes ago, RulesofRarity said:

I wouldn’t say she was useless, she’s the one who convinced Twilight to reopen the school after she uncharacteristicly gave up in the premiere. Starlight also helped solve the situation in “Marks for Effort” and “The End in Friend”, she just wasn’t as annoyingly prominent as she was last season. 

 

I actually liked how Starlight was utilized in Season 7.

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18 minutes ago, PurpleWonderPower said:

There is some truth in what you're saying, but you don't have to be unhappy about something to reform. Sometimes you can be perfectly happy, then open your heart to something new and then not want to lose it. Like Discord. He was perfectly happy, but then when Fluttershy befriended him, he realized he now had something he didn't want to lose. Flim and Flam and Lightning Dust have just not been put in the situation where they open their hearts to friendship yet. They are like Discord: they are not just characters who are naturally in the situation, they are characters that need to be put in the situation. Cause Discord was not twisted with jealousy or anything, he was just put in the situation of friendship and opened his heart to it. Flim and Flam are a lot like Discord: they have absolutely no sense of vengeance, jealousy or grudges, nor are they unhappy with anything, and just need to be put in the right situation to open their hearts to friendship. Like if Flim and Applejack got close, and then Flim didn't want to lose that by being a conpony. Or if Lightning Dust made friends with Rainbow Dash. Basically the same way as in Keep Calm And Flutter On.

Perfectly reasonable so then in that case this falls into one more mindset, the one offering the reformation.

You have to see why Twilight would attempt to reform Starlight, Tempest, or Stygian. Why the CMC opened up to Diamond Tiara or Pinkie to Gilda, and that is by doing the empathizing that I referred to last time but what if there is nothing to empathize with. What if they are happy with no insecurities. Then it falls solely on the character to offer the reformation but for a good reason.

Fluttershy did so because she was told to but she was also nice enough to do so. Why would Twilight offer anything to Flim & Flam? She already offered a reasonable schooling arrangement and they turned it down. Why would Dash offer Friendship to Lightning Dust? Dash knows as much as we do and that she's happy, she just better not be putting fillies at risk. Lightning Dust's friendship at this point offers nothing to her. Maybe if she were to open up more but there is nothing presented to for either party to do so, unlike Fluttershy in "Keep Calm..."

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2 minutes ago, KH7672 said:

Perfectly reasonable so then in that case this falls into one more mindset, the one offering the reformation.

You have to see why Twilight would attempt to reform Starlight, Tempest, or Stygian. Why the CMC opened up to Diamond Tiara or Pinkie to Gilda, and that is by doing the empathizing that I referred to last time but what if there is nothing to empathize with. What if they are happy with no insecurities. Then it falls solely on the character to offer the reformation but for a good reason.

Fluttershy did so because she was told to but she was also nice enough to do so. Why would Twilight offer anything to Flim & Flam? She already offered a reasonable schooling arrangement and they turned it down. Why would Dash offer Friendship to Lightning Dust? Dash knows as much as we do and that she's happy, she just better not be putting fillies at risk. Lightning Dust's friendship at this point offers nothing to her. Maybe if she were to open up more but there is nothing presented to for either party to do so, unlike Fluttershy in "Keep Calm..."

I know it would never work after Friendship University and The Washouts, but I mean that if we ignored the Season 8 episodes (like I do all the time), and just go on Flim and Flam's three previous episodes it could easily happen. As in, Friendship University would be replaced by a reformation episode, and the Washouts either be replaced or have had an alternate ending. Because Friendship University doesn't tally with the show's timeline, and so I don't think it really counted.

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52 minutes ago, PurpleWonderPower said:

There is some truth in what you're saying, but you don't have to be unhappy about something to reform. Sometimes you can be perfectly happy, then open your heart to something new and then not want to lose it. Like Discord. He was perfectly happy, but then when Fluttershy befriended him, he realized he now had something he didn't want to lose. Flim and Flam and Lightning Dust have just not been put in the situation where they open their hearts to friendship yet. They are like Discord: they are not just characters who are naturally in the situation, they are characters that need to be put in the situation. Cause Discord was not twisted with jealousy or anything, he was just put in the situation of friendship and opened his heart to it. Flim and Flam are a lot like Discord: they have absolutely no sense of vengeance, jealousy or grudges, nor are they unhappy with anything, and just need to be put in the right situation to open their hearts to friendship. Like if Flim and Applejack got close, and then Flim didn't want to lose that by being a conpony. Or if Lightning Dust made friends with Rainbow Dash. Basically the same way as in Keep Calm And Flutter On.

No sense of vengeance or holding grudges? Flim and Flam only helped AJ and Shy in Viva las Pegasus to get revenge on Gladmane. That's why it wasn't a face turn in my opinion. They helped out to get revenge and then as soon as Gladmane was gone they went right back to scamming people while AJ yelled at them. Gladmane's plan to deal with them was to make each one hold a grudge against the other.

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3 minutes ago, gingerninja666 said:

No sense of vengeance or holding grudges? Flim and Flam only helped AJ and Shy in Viva las Pegasus to get revenge on Gladmane. That's why it wasn't a face turn in my opinion. They helped out to get revenge and then as soon as Gladmane was gone they went right back to scamming people while AJ yelled at them. Gladmane's plan to deal with them was to make each one hold a grudge against the other.

Sure, they were on sour terms against each other when Gladmane tricked them into arguing, but that's not the same thing as holding a grudge or wanting vengeance. And I meant they hold no grudges against Applejack and her friends. They have no intent of getting her back after she exposed their plots. And obviously they wanted to help AJ and Fluttershy get even with Gladmane, but that wasn't revenge, it was just doing justice. Big difference.

Edited by PurpleWonderPower

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Just now, PurpleWonderPower said:

Sure, they held grudges against each other when Gladmane tricked them into arguing, but I mean they hold no grudges against Applejack and her friends. They have no intent of getting her back after she exposed their plots. And obviously they wanted to help them get even with Gladmane, but that wasn't revenge, it was just doing justice. Big difference.

It is justice, but it wasn't justice to them. We see no real evidence that they they were being altruistic. That they were doing this out of the goodness of their hearts. Gladmane screwed them over and they wanted to get payback. As soon as they accomplished this, they went right back to their old ways.

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6 hours ago, starlightfan1 said:

And let’s not forget the fact that Starlight was useless this season. And how twilight hogged the entire season.

I did hope for a few more Starlight-centre episodes, rather than just episodes where Starlight appears.

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18 minutes ago, PurpleWonderPower said:

I know it would never work after Friendship University and The Washouts, but I mean that if we ignored the Season 8 episodes (like I do all the time), and just go on Flim and Flam's three previous episodes it could easily happen. As in, Friendship University would be replaced by a reformation episode, and the Washouts either be replaced or have had an alternate ending. Because Friendship University doesn't tally with the show's timeline, and so I don't think it really counted.

Then we shall agree to disagree, with that kind of sentiment we are unfortunately not going to be of the same mindset. I analyze characters by every single appearance to determine if they are written well as the episode presents. I take it as I see it and go from there. That is how I take character analysis and I realize now you handle it differently. I thank you for your responses, and appreciate the different viewpoint. 

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Just now, gingerninja666 said:

It is justice, but it wasn't justice to them. We see no real evidence that they they were being altruistic. That they were doing this out of the goodness of their hearts. Gladmane screwed them over and they wanted to get payback. As soon as they accomplished this, they went right back to their old ways.

Exactly. Payback. Not revenge. Revenge is when a good guy foils a bad guy's evil plot, and the bad guy makes a plan to do something horribly awful to them in revenge. Payback simply means doing justice and making sure people get what they desrve.

Just now, KH7672 said:

Then we shall agree to disagree, with that kind of sentiment we are unfortunately not going to be of the same mindset. I analyze characters by every single appearance to determine if they are written well as the episode presents. I take it as I see it and go from there. That is how I take character analysis and I realize now you handle it differently. I thank you for your responses, and appreciate the different viewpoint. 

Just because Flim and Flam's brand new, completely different characters in Friendship University completely contradict themselves from all their other episodes. They don't act like themselves, and they do things Flim and Flam would never do. It contradicts everything about them, so it doesn't tally, therefore it doesn't really count.

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2 hours ago, KH7672 said:

But why?

Why do them, as characters in the shows version of Equestria, with their entire characterization, conflicts, and consequences NEED to be reformed. The fact of the matter is they are happy with how they are and there is nothing to fix from their viewpoint, so what are you going to fix?

I have no problems with you wanting things to come out differently (I myself have that sentiment with Diamond Tiara) but the fact of the matter is there is no reason to reform them besides a mindset and outcome you have in your mind that is not present in the show.

Saying there is nothing wrong with them is a stretch. They might be happy themselves, but they hurt others. Flim and Flam scam people, Lightning Dust has no concern for her colleague’s safety. 

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1 minute ago, Ganondox said:

Saying there is nothing wrong with them is a stretch. They might be happy themselves, but they hurt others. Flim and Flam scam people, Lightning Dust has no concern for her colleague’s safety. 

Definitely. That's what MLP:FIM is all about. Teaching ponies how to do the right thing and care about others.

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4 minutes ago, PurpleWonderPower said:

Exactly. Payback. Not revenge. Revenge is when a good guy foils a bad guy's evil plot, and the bad guy makes a plan to do something horribly awful to them in revenge. Payback simply means doing justice and making sure people get what they desrve.

Actually, revenge is defined as " the action of hurting or harming someone in return for an injury or wrong suffered at their hands." Which is what the Flim Flams were doing.

 

But what I'm getting at is the motive behind what they were doing. We see no real evidence that they helped out AJ and Shy because it was "the right" thing to do. Their only stated motive was screwing over Gladmane because he screwed over them.That's a motive rooted only in self-interest.

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7 minutes ago, gingerninja666 said:

Actually, revenge is defined as " the action of hurting or harming someone in return for an injury or wrong suffered at their hands." Which is what the Flim Flams were doing.

 

But what I'm getting at is the motive behind what they were doing. We see no real evidence that they helped out AJ and Shy because it was "the right" thing to do. Their only stated motive was screwing over Gladmane because he screwed over them.That'sotive rooted only in self-interest.

Revenge is when someone does something horribly awful, "the action of hurting or harming someone", like you said. Payback is when someone gets rightful punishment for doing something bad. That's just called justice. Gladmane did bad, causing arguments between all his employees, and all Flim and Flam did was help them expose him for his lies and give him what he deserved. That wasn't revenge, that's just doing justice. Revenge and payback are two different things.

Edited by PurpleWonderPower

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