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Magical Mystery Cure vs Shadow Play


ManaMinori
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So, if Starswirl didn't know what the EoH and ToH were, in Shadow Play, and the elements hadn't even been grown from the tree, and the tree itself hadn't even been grown in his time, then what was his spell in Magical Mystery cure REALLY supposed to do?

 

And if neither the tree nor elements existed in Starswirl's time, then why did the Tree's elements react to the spell in Twilight's time, and alter their cutie marks? 

Edited by Nightmare Muffin
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15 minutes ago, Nightmare Muffin said:

So, if Starswirl didn't know what the EoH and ToH were, in Shadow Play, and the elements hadn't even been grown from the tree, and the tree itself hadn't even been grown in his time, then what was his spell in Magical Mystery cure REALLY supposed to do?

 

And if neither the tree nor elements existed in Starswirl's time, then why did the Tree's elements react to the spell in Twilight's time, and alter their cutie marks? 

Well, the elements are partly made of Starswirl's magic, so it probably sensed a spell made by one of it's creators and resonated with it.

 

Same thing probably happened with the Time Spell in Cutie Remark actualy.

Edited by gingerninja666
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13 minutes ago, Nightmare Muffin said:

And if neither the tree nor elements existed in Starswirl's time, then why did the Tree's elements react to the spell in Twilight's time, and alter their cutie marks? 

Twilight was tasked to rewrite Starswirl's spell in Magical Mystery Cure, and messing up retooling it was what altered her friends' cutie marks. It's clear that Starswirl's intent in working with the spell was different, because he did not understand friendship like Twilight did, in Celestia's words. Thus the different reaction from outside forces.

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Same reason Doc Time Turner's flameless fireworks didn't go off till triggered by the love at Cranky and Matilda's wedding. Some spells and enchanted objects can only be activated by certain kinds of magic. It's like chemistry but with a fictitious form of energy and words involved. If things aren't lined up just right you won't get the reaction you're looking for. There's a lot of trial and error.

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4 hours ago, CloudMistDragon said:

Twilight was tasked to rewrite Starswirl's spell in Magical Mystery Cure, and messing up retooling it was what altered her friends' cutie marks. It's clear that Starswirl's intent in working with the spell was different, because he did not understand friendship like Twilight did, in Celestia's words. Thus the different reaction from outside forces.

^ This. Celestia assigned Twilight Star Swirl's unfinished spellbook, who had trouble completing it during his time, because in his era, the magic of friendship wasn't dominant nor considered. The Elements's swapping was Twilight's own doing: She read the incomplete incantation, and the Elements (and the Bearers' memories within) were consequently swapped around. When she knew how to fix the spell, she rewrote the verse, triggering a much different outcome.

5 hours ago, Dusk Noire said:

I really don't know. But part of that is  probably chocked up to MMC being a nonsensical, rushed dumpster fire of a finale.

3 hours ago, AlexanderThrond said:

Thinking too hard about "Magical Mystery Cure" is the way to madness. It's better to just pretend it never happened.

3 hours ago, Ganondorf8 said:

Welcome to the world of inconsistency when it comes to MLP.

  1. There isn't anything inconsistent about this. Star Swirl's magical incantation was supposed to trigger differently compared to what he originally put down. His prominent virtue's sorcery (a callback to many episodes, including MMC), but friendship wasn't one of them, hence his inability to finish the spell. Shadow Play expanded on his drawback.
  2. MMC is the single most important episode of the series, and everything from that point forward is linked, in some way or another, to it. Pretending it never happened is futile.
Edited by Dark Qiviut
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Just now, Dark Qiviut said:

MMC is the single most important episode of the series, and everything from that point forward is linked, in some way or another, to it.

Pretending it never happened is futile.

You could also say that about the Premiere as well, and that applies to the entire series and not just half of it, and it is a much better episode.

However, that is true. The episode may have been completely terrible in every sense, but it is important to the latter part of the series.

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7 minutes ago, Dark Qiviut said:

There isn't anything inconsistent about this. Star Swirl's magical incantation was supposed to trigger differently compared to Twilight's faulty rewrite. His prominent virtue's sorcery (a callback to many episodes, including MMC), but friendship wasn't one of them, hence his inability to finish the spell. Shadow Play expanded on his drawback.

Well, it’s vague enough to fit, I guess.

8 minutes ago, Dark Qiviut said:

MMC is the single most important episode of the series, and everything from that point forward is linked, in some way or another, to it. Pretending it never happened is futile.

I’ve been trying and failing to do that for years, so I should know that by now.

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21 minutes ago, Dusk Noire said:

You could also say that about the Premiere as well, and that applies to the entire series and not just half of it, and it is a much better episode.

On the whole, the pilot's better. But in individual parts, I don't think so. Even with its cramped pacing and massive continuity errors, I do believe MMC's better than FIM2 (though worse than FIM1), because its stakes are phoned in, NMM (despite an awesome backstory) being one of the flattest villains of the series, and the whole process to make the M6 Bearers feels completely unearned. In MMC, the stakes are legitimate, Twilight's sympathetic, and Twilight worked very hard to fix the mistake she inadvertently caused; she was very sympathetic here, and she earned those wings.

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Just now, Dark Qiviut said:

On the whole, the pilot's better. But in individual parts, I don't think so. Even with its cramped pacing and massive continuity errors, I do believe MMC's better than FIM2 (though worse than FIM1), because its stakes are phoned in, and the whole process to make the M6 Bearers feels completely unearned. In MMC, the stakes are legitimate, Twilight's sympathetic, and Twilight worked very hard to fix the mistake she inadvertently caused; she was very sympathetic here, and she earned those wings.

Honestly, I found MMC to be just a total train wreck. The pacing was severely off to the point where everything just got mushed together, nothing really made any freaking sense, and the songs in themselves were just so terrible and there were way too many of them... I frankly think it's the 3rd worst episode in the entire series other than "Hard to Say Anything" and "Fake It 'Til You Make It." Though "The Non-Compete Clause" and "The End in Friend"  come pretty close to being at that point, I don't think they quite reach it.

 

I don't agree with exactly what you're saying here, either. They weren't truly earned in either case. Twilight in no way earned her status as an Alicorn. It randomly happened, almost out of the blue. It was one of the biggest complaints that I have about the episode. That she got the honor of becoming a princess after doing... what exactly? Casting a spell? She had already saved Equestria more than once at this point (In fact, by my count, she had saved Equestria four times before that). I fail to see how that particular time was special. Maybe because there were five times as many songs as usual that time or they just tried to find an excuse to end the series because they were quite clearly running out of ideas at the time, I don't know.

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1 hour ago, Dark Qiviut said:

There isn't anything inconsistent about this. Star Swirl's magical incantation was supposed to trigger differently compared to Twilight's faulty rewrite.

 

1 hour ago, Dark Qiviut said:

The Elements's swapping was Twilight's own doing: She rewrote the final verse incorrectly,

No, it wasn’t, you should go rewatch the episode. All she did was read Starswirl’s first go at the spell out loud, and that caused the mix up. She didn’t even attempt to rewrite the spell before things went wrong.

The problem with the assumption that the spell reacted in an unexpected way is that this was supposed to be Twilight’s final test. If Celestia didn’t know what Starswirl’s unfinished spell would do, how is it a fair test? The Elements of Harmony were the catalyst that triggered Twilight’s transformation. How did Celestia intend for Twilight to transform if she didn’t know the spell would effect the Elements?

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7 minutes ago, Dusk Noire said:

Honestly, I found MMC to be just a total train wreck. The pacing was severely off to the point where everything just got mushed together, nothing really made any freaking sense, and the songs in themselves were just so terrible and there were way too many of them... I frankly think it's the 3rd worst episode in the entire series other than "Hard to Say Anything" and "Fake It 'Til You Make It." Though "The Non-Compete Clause" and "The End in Friend"  come pretty close to being at that point, I don't think they quite reach it.

I don't think MMC is anywhere nearly as bad as what many people think. And I argue some things here do make sense.

  1. Twilight was mailed in SS book, tasked to rewrite and finish the spell. In one attempt, she wrote it incorrectly and inadvertently cast it, which caused the RM5 to have false memories of their talents, goals, themselves, and each other. They couldn't self-correct it because, thanks to her incorrect verse, they (and most of Ponyville) have no memory of what their lives were truly like. Everything worsened. Everyone was miserable. Twilight was rightfully upset.
  2. But she was able to regain composure and figure out how to fix the problems she caused. By doing what they were good at, and putting the right Element of Harmony on, they were able to remember exactly who they truly are. Twilight led the way, but with each step, reunited the M6 with their true talents and memories. There, Twilight knew how to properly conclude his spell.
  3. Down Memory Lane, Celestia shows how far she had come to where she's at now. Twilight was ready for those wings, and she knew from within she was ready.

What My Cutie Mark Is Telling Me isn't my cup of tea, and I'm not a big fan of Behold Princess Twilight Sparkle, but the others are really good. Morning in Ponyville gives the episode some needed comedy so it doesn't become too dark and depressing early. I've Got to Find a Way was an emotional punch in the gut, and the depressing imagery and somber color palette add to the misery. A True, True Friend exudes confidence and hope from Twilight to everyone else, and with each passing second, the audience buys more and more into how tight the M6's connection to Ponyville is. Celestia's Ballad shows how proud Celestia is to Twilight, which leads to her newest chapter of her life.

No, MMC still isn't good. But looking back at how critical and harsh I was towards it in the past, I didn't give it the fair shake it truly deserves. It's got its big flaws, but it also has big strengths. Three of the four episodes that you list are worse; The End in Friend in NCC, Mare Do Well, and 28PL done a million times better, but that's for another thread and another time.

42 minutes ago, Dusk Noire said:

Twilight in no way earned her status as an Alicorn. It randomly happened, almost out of the blue. It was one of the biggest complaints that I have about the episode. That she got the honor of becoming a princess after doing... what exactly? Casting a spell? She had already saved Equestria more than once at this point (In fact, by my count, she had saved Equestria four times before that).

There were a few vague clues leading up to MMC that suggested bigger plans and goals for Twi.

  1. TCE: Celestia saying that successfully protecting the Empire puts her at the next level of her studies (that level being preparations for princesshood), and at the end, Star Swirl's spell book appears.
  2. Magic Duel: Twilight understanding not only her strengths, but limitations, too, and figuring out how she and her friends can trick Trixie into taking off the amulet.
  3. Wonderbolts Academy: AJ telling Pinkie about Twilight's evolution in her magic.
  4. Keep Calm: Twilight safeguarded the Elements instead of Celestia at the end.

Secondly, what happened prior was much more different compared to here. Previously, villains tried to conquer Equestria. But here, Twilight inadvertently put Equestria in great peril by applying a wrong incantation, and thus risked making the Elements (Equestria's primary protectors) moot. She almost caused a great catastrophe with an unknown way out.

49 minutes ago, Dusk Noire said:

Maybe because there were five times as many songs as usual that time or they just tried to find an excuse to end the series because they were quite clearly running out of ideas at the time, I don't know.

According to Larson at a con a few years ago, he wanted to make a two-part finale of S3, but Hasbro rejected it. So he wrote a single episode instead. Rather than Star Swirl's spell book, Twilight was given Pandora's Box by Celestia with specific instructions NOT to open it. But with curiosity piqued, she opened it, causing a major catastrophe with virtually no way out. But Twilight was able to fix it, reseal the box, and earn her wings as a reward. Originally, MMC was the series finale, but after he submitted his final script, Hasbro ordered S4, so McCarthy et al had to reshuffle the story and exchange plot points, including exchanging Pandora's box, removing the closing of the fairy tale book (indicating the end of the series), and moving the out-of-control vines from MMC to the S4 premiere.

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30 minutes ago, ShootingStar159 said:

No, it wasn’t, you should go rewatch the episode. All she did was read Starswirl’s first go at the spell out loud, and that caused the mix up. She didn’t even attempt to rewrite the spell before things went wrong.

Went back to rewatch the clip. You're right, my mistake.

30 minutes ago, ShootingStar159 said:

The problem with the assumption that the spell reacted in an unexpected way is that this was supposed to be Twilight’s final test. If Celestia didn’t know what Starswirl’s unfinished spell would do, how is it a fair test?

  1. Celestia told her in her letter that Star Swirl's spell was incomplete. Reading it aloud or casting it could cause it to go haywire, but Twilight didn't think things through.
  2. The book's spell was related to friendship, but he didn't understand it too well, hence his struggles. Celestia did, but Twilight understood the magic of friendship very well, if not embodied it to a T.

Celestia's test was 100% fair.

Edited by Dark Qiviut
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On 9/29/2018 at 8:14 PM, Dusk Noire said:

I really don't know. But part of that is  probably chocked up to MMC being a nonsensical, rushed dumpster fire of a finale.

true as that may be, that doesn't mean that we can't at least try to make sense of it.

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The interesting question now considering the revelations of Season 8 is how much of the problem caused by reworking the spell was the Tree of Harmony trying to influence the outcome? 

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2 hours ago, Jeric said:

The interesting question now considering the revelations of Season 8 is how much of the problem caused by reworking the spell was the Tree of Harmony trying to influence the outcome? 

Heehee! That's actually a question I'm addressing through my fanfic (which is really just a glorified theory). It's still onoing, but I can link you if you want, or I can attempt to explain through a condensed form through PM

4 hours ago, heavens-champion said:

What is there to say? Magical Mystery Cure is a regular 22-minute episode that rushes the main conflict to make way for Twilight's ascension, while Shadow Play was a two-parter finale that paced itself as much as possible.

Well, yeah, but the fact still remains that Starswirl's spell couldn't have possibly effected the elements, since the tree hadn't existed and bore them,  according to the lore that SP gave us. 

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2 hours ago, Nightmare Muffin said:

Heehee! That's actually a question I'm addressing through my fanfic (which is really just a glorified theory). It's still onoing, but I can link you if you want, or I can attempt to explain through a condensed form through PM

Well, yeah, but the fact still remains that Starswirl's spell couldn't have possibly effected the elements, since the tree hadn't existed and bore them,  according to the lore that SP gave us. 

What about what I said? That the elements are sentient and probably sensed a spell made by one of their creators.

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