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Should the movie still be cannon?

Denim&Venöm

By Denim&Venöm, Event Coordinator

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Denim&Venöm

Denim&Venöm

Before the movie came out, I asked if it would be considered cannon with the series. Now over a year later I ask, should the movie have been cannon?

There are more than a few reasons this film seems, shall we say, off compared to the show. 

  • Twi's meltdown in the second act, when she's maintained some composure in more dire situations prior. 
  • The lack of any allies made during the last 7 seasons. No changelings, dragons, gryphons, yaks or crystal ponies. 
  • No shining armor or royal guard. 
  • No involvement from Discord, Starlight or Trixie. 
  • Princesses didn't learn fro any of the past attempts on their lives. 
  • The first time the Hippogrifs are mentioned, and it just so happens to be during the attack by the very forces that subjugated them. So either:
  1. Celestia only just thought of the hippogrifs at that moment, but made no attempts at contact prior.
  2. Celestia knew the hippogriffs were subjugated by the Storm King but did nothing till now. 
  • Every pony seems either uncharacteristically timid or uncharacteristically oblivious to danger. The mane 6 were on more dangerous missions and have seen threats before, but they're either more scared than usual or taking a lot less caution than normal. 
  • Nopony in the Southern half of Equestria noticed the ominous fleet and bothered to send warning to any of the princesses. 
  • Celestia sends the ponies south to do, what exactly? it was never made clear what they were supposed to accomplish and whatever it was, they apparently didn't need it to take back Canterlot. 

There are so many OOC moments, so many logic gaps, so many missing characters and so much of the already established lore being ignored, that does it really make sense for this movie to be cannon? 

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Will Guide

Will Guide

If you ask me, trying to make sense of the whole thing is just going to cause a headache. I accept the movie is canon, but I'm not going to make a big deal out of these "OOC moments" and "plotholes"

If it comes to Will Guide's story involving the events, it's that he was vacationing far away from any of the actions.

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EpicEnergy

EpicEnergy

(edited)

I think the movie should be considered canon. Of course it has errors, of course it is off on various levels, but that doesn't mean it must be eliminated from canon. It plays a crucial role in season 8 as its foundation, or at least a supporting role. The hippogriffs are a major thing that comes to mind, without the movie being canon you have no idea where Silverstream came from and where Mount Aris came from. Also, saying the movie must not be canon due to its errors is inconsistent. Many episodes in many season of MLP have errors and things that are way off, does that mean they should not be canon (such as "Non-Complete Clause" and "Fake It Til' You Make It")? I don't think so.

 

 

Edited by EpicEnergy
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MangoFoalix

MangoFoalix

I don't know, they might be canon but not cannon. :-P

On a serious note, yes it should be canon. Season 8 builds off the movie, so unless you consider everything from Season 1 to Season 7 as canon and not Season 8 then I would say so.

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Loyal Defender

Loyal Defender

(edited)
  • Twi's meltdown in the second act, when she's maintained some composure in more dire situations prior. 

 

You'd be under intense stress and pressure, too, if you were the last key needed for a villain to take over the realm, and wanted you, dead or alive.

 

  • The lack of any allies made during the last 7 seasons. No changelings, dragons, gryphons, yaks or crystal ponies. 

This movie likely wasn't made to be set during the events of Season 6 or 7. So no reformed Changelings.

Dragons, unsure why you'd want those. They're greedy, rude, and selfish jerks.

No Griffons because they likely wouldn't enjoy it, even if Griffons are beginning to understand friendship.

Yaks, honestly can't stand them - they're stubborn, oblivious, and just illogical creatures. Plus they'd smash everything. 

No Crystal Ponies because THEY BELONG IN THE EMPIRE.

 

  • No shining armor or royal guard. 

Unsure what to say about that one.

 

  • No involvement from Discord, Starlight or Trixie. 

If Discord were around, the movie would be over in about five minutes total. He could just poof them all away, which really wouldn't be fair to the plot. Starlight was in the movie, in the background while Trixie was setting off fireworks during 'We Got This Together'.

 

  • Princesses didn't learn from any of the past attempts on their lives. 

They knew nothing of the Storm King's army, hence why Luna doubted Tempest. Plus, it was a new kind of threat nopony knew about.

 

  • The first time the Hippogriffs are mentioned, and it just so happens to be during the attack by the very forces that subjugated them. So either:
  1. Celestia only just thought of the hippogriffs at that moment, but made no attempts at contact prior.
  2. Celestia knew the hippogriffs were subjugated by the Storm King but did nothing till now. 

 

First of all, it wasn't necessarily the first time the Hippogriffs were mentioned. There was a prologue story on Tempest's past involving the day (or night) that Hippogriffia was under attack after Tempest tried to steal the pearl (though failed), and the Hippogriffs fled to sea. 

Secondly, what could she have done, other than be surrounded by members of the Storm King and be imprisoned, whether she had an army or not?

 

  • Every pony seems either uncharacteristically timid or uncharacteristically oblivious to danger. The mane 6 were on more dangerous missions and have seen threats before, but they're either more scared than usual or taking a lot less caution than normal.

That's not entirely true. Twilight pointed out in Klugetown that they shouldn't make a scene, and she ALSO warned Rainbow not to make a Rainboom. Besides, how could they have been more cautious than normal in a place they didn't know the dangerousness of?

 

  • Nopony in the Southern half of Equestria noticed the ominous fleet and bothered to send warning to any of the princesses. 

You forget, the airships could hide themselves in somewhat-natural looking storm clouds. They ALSO could've flew up into the clouds for extra cover. 

 

  • Celestia sends the ponies south to do, what exactly? it was never made clear what they were supposed to accomplish and whatever it was, they apparently didn't need it to take back Canterlot. 

Celestia didn't send them. She simply tried to tell Luna to find the Hippogriffs. Twilight decided that it was up to her to find the Hippogriffs, setting out on a journey to do so. And they had extra friends to help them fight the Storm Guards. Different friends with different skills. 

 

 

Edited by Loyal Defender
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EpicEnergy

EpicEnergy

(edited)

I meant to put this in my first post, but didn't have the time.

2 hours ago, Denim&Venom said:

Twi's meltdown in the second act, when she's maintained some composure in more dire situations prior. 

Acting out of character isn't an automatic failure for the writing department. Twilight is known to have "freak-outs", plus she was under a great deal of stress already with the princesses being disabled and the kingdom's fate lying on her should, so of course she should be expected to lose her cool and act rashly.

2 hours ago, Denim&Venom said:

The lack of any allies made during the last 7 seasons. No changelings, dragons, gryphons, yaks or crystal ponies. 

The attack on Equestria was sudden, it would have taken at least a few days for any allies to hear of the incident, and longer for them to prepare and arrive. Equestria is peaceful and capable of defending itself, it's not like every nation was prepared to instantly rush to Equestria's aid at a moment's notice.

2 hours ago, Denim&Venom said:
  • No shining armor or royal guard. 
  • No involvement from Discord, Starlight or Trixie. 

Shining armor was probably overseeing the Crystal Empire in Cadence's absence, and in the unlikely event he was in Canterlot, I don't think a unicorn could remain uncaptured by foes who already took down 3 powerful alicorns and an entire city of equine unicorns, earth ponies, and Pegasi. Discord was not present in Canterlot, so he was probably in his dimension since Fluttershy was attending events, which means he would not have sensed or noticed an attack on Equestria. Starlight and Trixie, well, the mane six barely escaped, the alicorns princesses were captured, the entire population of Canterlot was captured, it's obvious that Starlight and Trixie would have been captured even if they put up a decent fight.

2 hours ago, Denim&Venom said:

Princesses didn't learn fro any of the past attempts on their lives. 

They also didn't know the enemy had magical weapons that turn ponies into stone, nor did they have any time to fight back since it happened instantly.

2 hours ago, Denim&Venom said:
  • The first time the Hippogrifs are mentioned, and it just so happens to be during the attack by the very forces that subjugated them. So either:
  1. Celestia only just thought of the hippogrifs at that moment, but made no attempts at contact prior.
  2. Celestia knew the hippogriffs were subjugated by the Storm King but did nothing till now. 

This is simply unexplained, not a error but simply lack of information. Also, I don't think Celestia knew of the hippogriffs being under the storm king, nothing says anything about that.

2 hours ago, Denim&Venom said:

Nopony in the Southern half of Equestria noticed the ominous fleet and bothered to send warning to any of the princesses. 

Maybe that fleet was under the cover of the gigantic storm cloud, I'm sure the few ponies that didn't attend the the Canterlot event wouldn't have suspected or noticed a hidden fleet.

2 hours ago, Denim&Venom said:

Celestia sends the ponies south to do, what exactly? it was never made clear what they were supposed to accomplish and whatever it was, they apparently didn't need it to take back Canterlot. 

It was clear, they needed to get help from the hippos as indicated by Luna's last words before her capture.

 

 Edit: apologies if this is sloppy and if I made some errors, I was in a rush again. It's a busy day for me.

Edited by EpicEnergy
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Ganondorf8

Ganondorf8

At this point in time, the movie is pretty much canon due to season eight continuing on from where it left off. Sure, a lot of the events in the movie can be deemed questionable from numerous perspectives--there are certainly a lot of these, enough to make a few dozen threads at least--but then Hasbro may have suggested that the writers just focus on promoting new characters, locations, and so on and worry about story elements and continuity later.

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cmarston1

cmarston1

While the movie isn't perfect, I actually kinda like that it is canon to the show.  This is because when it comes to these types of adaptations, for the most part they leave little to no impact on the events of the show, so seeing one that breaks away from that is something I can appreciate.

 

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Fhaolan

Fhaolan

Eh, to be honest the entire concept of 'canon' is a bit off in my mind. There's enough things in the show that contradicts itself that I can't get too worked up about it.

Mind you, I've been trained to think that way by growing up with a show that was pretty anti-canon in general: Doctor Who. Internal contradictions, references to outside show continuity (various comics, magazines, novels, etc.) and the like kinda destroy the whole 'what is canon' question. :)

Personally, I look at it as what we see is what the participants believe happened. It's not necessarily the *truth*, but given Twilight is our main point-of-view character, then the movie is what *she* thinks is the truth.

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Jordan D

Jordan D

This series as a whole is so full of plotholes, inconsistencies, retcons, inconsistent characterization, etc, that picking on the movie is a bit unfair. I mean, this is the series that rewrote Luna's backstory 8 times and continues to screw with the timeline of the series to the point where trying to devise any reasonable timeline is virtually impossible.

Almost everything featured in Season 1 has been retconned by this point. Luna's backstory, Equestrian language, the magic nature of the Everfree Forest, the way a few holidays worked, Lyra's age, Derpy not having weird eyes, Bon Bon being much older than she is now (she was originally portrayed as being around Cup Cake's age given her voice and mannerisms). Does that make Season 1 no longer canon? Of course not. Same goes for the movie.Not only did it play into the events of season 8, but also a few comic storylines ("Convocations of the Creatures", "The Return of Tempest Shadow", "Ponyville Mysteries" and "Nightmare Knights").

Point is, if you dig hard enough into anything, you'll find more-or-less the same results that point to anything being non-canon in this series.

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Ashen Pathfinder

Ashen Pathfinder

While the movie isn't perfect in regards to character portrayals, I don't really get some complaints when it comes down to. Granted I'll concede some arguments, but here's my view:

1. Twilight losing her cool isn't necessarily OOC, but unlike other times Tempest proves quite the psychological force and seeing the princesses turned to stone like nothing else left it's mark. Not only that; we also have Capper's betrayal as well as mistrust of the pirates weighing on her mind. I mean yeah; she's faced Tirek and dealt with princess-based disappearances well enough, but I'd wager that a combination of effects definitely weighed on her.

2. I don't see why Starlight and Trixie really have to be involved here. If storm guard armor/shields were enough to push back Twilight's horn magic; then Trixie would stand little chance and Starlight probably not far behind. As for Discord...well, the Pony of Shadows and Cozy Glow could likely have been easily handled by the Lord of Chaos as well; I just think he chooses to not involve himself unless the ponies actually can't handle the situation. While not directly stated; to me he seems more hands off unless told to assist.

3. Shining Armor and the royal guard: Yeah; I'll give you that one, especially how that cornered a little filly like no tomorrow. A shame that was never addressed/

4. Did Celestia really know the hippogriffs were subjugated? It was my impression Celestia knew of them, but contact was limited; similar to how things were with the yaks. Until Rutherford wanted to establish diplomatic ties; knowledge of culture and happenings was very limited.

5. In regards to southern Equestria and the fleet; do we know from where they came from? I mean if we use the prequel comics as canon, then the Storm King has recently invaded and destroyed the kingdom of Abyssinia (Capper's people), which is to the east of Canterlot, IIRC. In any case the fleet knows how to use storm clouds as disguise so it's likely some places either didn't realize what was in the sky, or didn't care (ala Klugetown).

I mean; I'll concede on some areas like why Celestia thought the hippogriffs were so essential against the Storm King, or why Fluttershy seemed more Timid than usual (though to be fair she acted similar when arriving at the Peaks of Peril), or the lack of any clear directive for the ponies to go south. Otherwise tho; some things make sense to me.

So yeah; movie should remain canon...and it helps that season 8 kept referring to it, so yeah.

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BornAgainBrony

BornAgainBrony

(edited)
18 minutes ago, PathfinderCS said:

While the movie isn't perfect in regards to character portrayals, I don't really get some complaints when it comes down to. Granted I'll concede some arguments, but here's my view:1. Twilight losing her cool isn't necessarily OOC, but unlike other times Tempest proves quite the psychological force and seeing the princesses turned to stone like nothing else left it's mark. Not only that; we also have Capper's betrayal as well as mistrust of the pirates weighing on her mind. I mean yeah; she's faced Tirek and dealt with princess-based disappearances well enough, but I'd wager that a combination of effects definitely weighed on her.

I didn't find it to be off at all. I related to her A LOT in that moment. "I never would have DONE it, but this isn't Equestria! We can't just dance around with con artists, make rainbooms in the sky and expect everything to work out! It's not enough! We are not enough!" That line hit really hard and made me think of what it would be like if they were trapped in our world. I was already tearing up from hearing it because it echoed thoughts I've had throughout my life. They were in a place where the Magic of Friendship doesn't have nearly as much sway, contrary to everything they've known before.

Tirek arguably may have been worse than their present situation but the Princesses were prepared for it. Twilight knew she was part of a plan. And she also had a really big brute to take her angst out on. The Storm King came out of nowhere on the day of her festival and occupied Canterlot without even breaking a sweat. And as you said, they get screwed over multiple times afterward. They're exposed to horrors unimaginable within the borders of Equestria. The Ponies are completely out of their element and Twilight is the only one who seems to consciously realize it. Being arguably the most intelligent one in the group, of course she would be the first to see this other world for what it is, and cynicism has eaten away at her by the time she decides to try stealing from the Seaponies. The timing is good too because it sets up the confrontation between Twilight and Tempest. Then Twi starts to get it, realizing how far she fell and what she could become if she doesn't snap out of it.

Edited by BornAgainBrony
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