animation Naruto censorship

[Yashiru 21]

I am kinda sad this was not in the anime. But in the manga it was a swastiska with some messed up ending. Swastika means "Good luck" in eastern religious cultures like buddhism. This was more or less a corrupted version of it shown in the manga where you see it in Neji's forehead if you see the end is corrupted, so the curse mark makes sense, also it has a sense of intimidation on it. But the X, i didnt feel that impression as i got in the manga.

But what do you think?

[DonMaguz 1,023]

10 minutes ago, Yashiru said:

also it has a sense of intimidation on it.

Is that your opinion?

If so... Why do you think it's intimidating? At least, more so than an 'X' mark? 

I'm usually against all visible censorship, but western countries are huge anime consumers and most of us don't have the buddhist knowledge to avoid getting a wrong Nazi reference from it. Knowing this, I think that the animation studio made a good commercial decision changing the mark to avoid unnecessary rejection towards the show.

At the end the mark is just a mark, and doesn't represent anything too relevant to the plot. Changing it didn't cause confusion to the viewer and it avoided potential rejection from its western consumers. 

[Yashiru 21]

1 minute ago, DonMaguz said:

Is that your opinion?

If so... Why do you think it's intimidating? At least, more so than an 'X' mark? 

I'm usually against all visible censorship, but western countries are huge anime consumers and most of us don't have the buddhist knowledge to avoid getting a wrong Nazi reference from it. Knowing this, I think that the animation studio made a good commercial decision changing the mark to avoid unnecessary rejection towards the show.

At the end the mark is just a mark, and doesn't represent anything too relevant to the plot. Changing it didn't cause confusion to the viewer and it avoided potential rejection from its western consumers. 

Unless you live in Germany where they censor this stuff. Usually its not wrong to learn from other cultures i think. It makes sense i mean. Naruto world is based on Japanese culture in this case its about ninjas. Religious stuff like Buddhism would totally make sense in this world.

[Here No Longer 5,270]

33 minutes ago, Yashiru said:

Unless you live in Germany where they censor this stuff.

Which is understandable, honestly. The Nazi regime is perhaps the most violent, authoritarian regime in history that was directly responsible for the deaths of millions, and to the audience there it may be a bit... traumatizing.

 

Even not considering that, I have to say I'm not saddened by that in any way. Naruto honestly is just something I don't really care for. It's like the anime version of SpongeBob the way I look at it. It's been around for way too long, and what's worse is that the seasonal rot carries on into new spinoffs where it's almost literally the same show with different main characters. Even then, Naruto wasn't really that great to begin with, I think.

Edited November 13, 2018 by ~Dusky~

[碇 シンジン 27,427]

The anime adaptation was pretty medicore at it's best for me and I don't think censorship was really the thing that brought it down for me like some of the 4kids versions 

Also I wouldn't call this as much censorship as I would call it a different artistic approach as personally I don't really see that the single mark had that much value in it 

Sure the original mark looks lot better in the context but when broadcasting a show there are sometimes things that 'need' to be done so to speak. 

I mean I wouldn't expect 100% accurate adaptation of Berserk into TV Anime I mean that would be awesome but the culture and the atmosphere in society these days is not very kind to approach that kind of content.

If you want to see accurate stuff start asking for OVAs and ONAs  

[Yashiru 21]

4 minutes ago, ~Dusky~ said:

Which is understandable, honestly. The Nazi regime is perhaps the most violent, authoritarian regime in history that was directly responsible for the deaths of millions, and to the audience there it may be a bit... traumatizing.

Just like communism too in a way. Problem is totalitarianism which is anti democratic. In fact i would argue communists killed more than the nazis ever did. Their overall ideas are terrible though and at best delusional is why nazism at its core makes no sense. But the buddhist symbol is nothing wrong with. But censorship is ultimate form of cowardice in my view. Since its an excuse to not be challenged and be wrong.

Edited November 13, 2018 by Yashiru

[Yashiru 21]

16 minutes ago, Oono Akira said:

The anime adaptation was pretty medicore at it's best for me and I don't think censorship was really the thing that brought it down for me like some of the 4kids versions 

Also I wouldn't call this as much censorship as I would call it a different artistic approach as personally I don't really see that the single mark had that much value in it 

Sure the original mark looks lot better in the context but when broadcasting a show there are sometimes things that 'need' to be done so to speak. 

I mean I wouldn't expect 100% accurate adaptation of Berserk into TV Anime I mean that would be awesome but the culture and the atmosphere in society these days is not very kind to approach that kind of content.

If you want to see accurate stuff start asking for OVAs and ONAs  

Well one thing i notice is how manga does the hair way better than anime, in anime the hair tend to look much more stiff. I mean i guess it is hard when animating it is the reason. I only recently started reading the manga. And used to be huge fan of Naruto anime which i recently rewatched, both naruto and shippuden. But gotta say so far, manga is ten times better.

Anime

Manga

 

Edited November 13, 2018 by Yashiru

[Here No Longer 5,270]

Just now, Yashiru said:

Just like communism too in a way. Problem is totalitarianism which is anti democratic. In fact i would argue communists killed more than the nazis ever did. Their overall ideas are terrible though.

But the buddhist symbol is nothing wrong with.

But censorship is ultimate form of cowardice in my view. Since its an excuse to not be challenged and be wrong.

I would argue that if Fascists were given the chance, they would have killed at least twice as many people in the same timespan after World War II than Communist regimes have. It wouldn't be that far of a stretch to think about what would have happened if the Nazis won WWII, or to conceive of the possibility either.

How do you not expect the German audience to see it immediately as the Nazi's symbol? Even if they tried to say that it was inspired by the Buddhist symbol, it would potentially fan the flames of political backlash even more, because the public may see it as an attempt to sidestep the issue.

I suppose that's true. After all, censoring it may actually have the opposite effect on potential Neo-Nazis, as they may see it as an exercise in silencing.

Not really trying to argue here, though. I agree it's overall not a good idea and some people should just grow up, but I was just trying to play Devil's Advocate. 

[Yashiru 21]

2 minutes ago, ~Dusky~ said:

I would argue that if Fascists were given the chance, they would have killed at least twice as many people in the same timespan after World War II than Communist regimes have. It wouldn't be that far of a stretch to think about what would have happened if the Nazis won WWII, or to conceive of the possibility either.

How do you not expect the German audience to see it immediately as the Nazi's symbol? Even if they tried to say that it was inspired by the Buddhist symbol, it would potentially fan the flames of political backlash even more, because the public may see it as an attempt to sidestep the issue.

I suppose that's true. After all, censoring it may actually have the opposite effect on potential Neo-Nazis, as they may see it as an exercise in silencing.

Not really trying to argue here, though. I agree it's overall not a good idea and some people should just grow up, but I was just trying to play Devil's Advocate. 

The reason why people kill people or want people dead is due to much influence and power, with that power they can do whatever they want to people who is oposing that influence. Democracy is the main chess piece to prevent radicals from killing. Thats why moderation is the key to a truly good democracy to discuss and talk.

The problem is when people dont try to talk with another is where the problem occurs.

Edit: As for how Germans are suppose to react?. Ask questions, use the internet. Would be my suggestion. In modern times it should not be hard in my view

Edited November 13, 2018 by Yashiru

[Here No Longer 5,270]

11 minutes ago, Yashiru said:

As for how Germans are suppose to react?. Ask questions, use the internet. Would be my suggestion. In modern times it should not be hard in my view

See here's the real issue that I'm trying to address: would you honestly expect them to react that way? I certainly would not in their position. 

You don't seem to appreciate the gravity of the fact that that flag, that symbol represent depravity in almost every sense of the word. I wouldn't expect any German to ask questions around because everyone's going to say that it's a symbol of evil. As for the internet, yet again I wouldn't think that they'd jump to that. The symbol has such a stigma in Germany. The Nazi flag as an issue for them is like the Confederate flag issue here in the United States except about 10 times worse. Considering how big of an issue the Confederate flag is in the US, I'd be led to think that in Germany the portrayal of the Nazi flag would cause widespread backlash and Germany would ban the show pretty freaking quickly. It's a better PR move for the show's artists to just change the symbol to something that doesn't have any real semblance to the swastika for that version specifically. After all, Nintendo actually supposedly from what I hear censors quite a bit of content from their games in the American versions of the games. 

[Yashiru 21]

6 minutes ago, ~Dusky~ said:

See here's the real issue that I'm trying to address: would you honestly expect them to react that way? I certainly would not in their position. 

You don't seem to appreciate the gravity of the fact that that flag, that symbol represent depravity in almost every sense of the word. I wouldn't expect any German to ask questions around because everyone's going to say that it's a symbol of evil. As for the internet, yet again I wouldn't think that they'd jump to that. The symbol has such a stigma in Germany. The Nazi flag as an issue for them is like the Confederate flag issue here in the United States except about 10 times worse. Considering how big of an issue the Confederate flag is in the US, I'd be led to think that in Germany the portrayal of the Nazi flag would cause widespread backlash and Germany would ban the show pretty freaking quickly. It's a better PR move for the show's artists to just change the symbol to something that doesn't have any real semblance to the swastika for that version specifically. After all, Nintendo actually supposedly from what I hear censors quite a bit of content from their games in the American versions of the games. 

Well Nintendo and America has kind of a bromance ever since atari crash failure in America so that may be the reason why their favorite customers is the US market of Nintendo. Meanwhile SONY is more Europe popular since much of market stock is 70%.

But swastika is not a flag though. It represents Nazi germany the same way bald eagle does. Its just a symbol, taking it out of context is easy for overly sensitive minds.

Edited November 13, 2018 by Yashiru

[Here No Longer 5,270]

Just now, Yashiru said:

But swastika is not a flag though.

The swastika is the symbol on the flag though and that makes it become associated with the flag.

[RDDash 18,848]

I remember it took me less than 20 episodes of the very first season to stop watching Naruto, because I couldn't believe how corny the show was. Any intended censorship was the least of it's problems

[Yashiru 21]

7 minutes ago, R.D.Dash said:

I remember it took me less than 20 episodes of the very first season to stop watching Naruto, because I couldn't believe how corny the show was. Any intended censorship was the least of it's problems

Its not for everyone. But i watched it in Japanese. Mostly because its mostly realistic "cause japanese culture and world". But Naruto is not for everyone i guess. But i used to love this show in high school.

I mean i still think this is kind of good. What bugs me is when Sakura asks Naruto for Sasuke's return, in Japanese it was like you could really feel this was really deep and real. In English it, i just didnt buy it. Like i am not saying all of it is bad. But my problem with some anime dub the problem is... they are never looking at the characters and imagining. What would this sound like if it spoke english? There are few anime that does it right, Pokemon, Beyblade season 1 atleast as i saw. But normally they just make them sound so out of place and i dont buy that some of them actually would have such a voice when looking and hearing the voices.

 

Like one example. This is a nitpick. I dont think Naruto English voice is terrible... but if it was me who were to pick a voice for him in English. This would be more or less something what i would go for.

 

Edited November 13, 2018 by Yashiru

[DonMaguz 1,023]

@Yashiru sorry to bring this up again but, how is the swastika mark more intimidating than the 'X' mark?

If you truly believe that the swastika means "good luck" and, more importantly, that that's how the viewers would have take it... It doesn't make sense to say that it is a more intimidating mark.

[SharpWit 2,472]

The Swastika has always been an alluring symbol simply by it's design, and I'd like to see some positive modern usage of it. Afterall as this whole issue clearly indicates, symbols can and do have multiple meanings. That being said, it makes it extremely difficult to get over how they're viewed differently across the world. At this point I think a good majority of westerners know that the symbol has historically positive connotations, just not to the extent that it holds much significance in our eyes. Meanwhile, a majority of people in eastern countries know that WW2 happened but they might not know about some of the finer details which has resulted in things like this.

Having a swastika on the forehead also isn't going to help becaus the first thing that comes to mind is Charles Manson for me.

[Yashiru 21]

37 minutes ago, DonMaguz said:

@Yashiru sorry to bring this up again but, how is the swastika mark more intimidating than the 'X' mark?

If you truly believe that the swastika means "good luck" and, more importantly, that that's how the viewers would have take it... It doesn't make sense to say that it is a more intimidating mark.

I mean it has important cultural value, the symbol on his head is corrupted. Like X doesnt tell me anything. This however does have a better impact.

34 minutes ago, SharpWit said:

The Swastika has always been an alluring symbol simply by it's design, and I'd like to see some positive modern usage of it. Afterall as this whole issue clearly indicates, symbols can and do have multiple meanings. That being said, it makes it extremely difficult to get over how they're viewed differently across the world. At this point I think a good majority of westerners know that the symbol has historically positive connotations, just not to the extent that it holds much significance in our eyes. Meanwhile, a majority of people in eastern countries know that WW2 happened but they might not know about some of the finer details which has resulted in things like this.

Having a swastika on the forehead also isn't going to help becaus the first thing that comes to mind is Charles Manson for me.

Some buddhist monks actually have manji symbol on their head actually. Atleast from what i have seen online (though might be misinformation, it may be temples only in terms of buddhism, but i have seen some having it on their head in terms of monks or something, though just what i have seen online probably not too informed on that one), ironic is probably some extreme far left circles would probably look at it and think those are neo nazis or something which would not be the case.

Edited November 13, 2018 by Yashiru

[Black Sabbath 2,484]

I don't really see the issue. It's a very minor change that doesn't really affect the show. 

Heck, Naruto isn't even the only anime who did this. One piece did the exact same thing. 

[Gestum 2,493]

Well, you have to realise why a swastika wouldn't have been well received by the western market. It was the symbol of the group that were responsible for the death of millions of innocent people there, after all. It may very well be a good luck charm in Asia, but in Europe and America it's "the Nazi symbol."

 

[cuteycindyhoney 13,282]

On 11/13/2018 at 9:54 AM, Yashiru said:

But what do you think? 

Not coming back to this thread.

Edited November 17, 2018 by cuteycindyhoney

[Vulcan 3,254]

Funny enough , this also happened in one piece with White Beard's Jolly Roger Flag

[Olly 1,008]

Maybe because it's less noticeable, but in Bleach, the hilt of ichigo's sword was never censored in the english version:

 

 

those aren't the best images but the hilt of the sword looks like this:

 

so I don't know why this would be a naruto specific problem

Edited November 14, 2018 by Olly

[Passion 3,478]

I knew nothing good would come out of this thread the moment I saw it, yet I've forgotten to keep a watchful eye on it because I've fallen ill.

 

Locking this. I'll make the effort to purge the thread of any posts that are not on topic and unlock it afterwards.

 

Next time, KEEP ON TOPIC.

 

EDIT: Done. Some of the points you've made might have been removed as part of collateral damage.

Seeing how 2/3rd of this thread has gone absolutely off-topic I am not certain letting it continue is the brightest of my ideas. Nevertheless... I doubt anybody has anything against discussing censorship attempts, symbolism, origins and meaning of symbols as well as their misconceptions. But you are not in this thread to discuss regimes nor history which are considered taboo for a reason.

[DonMaguz 1,023]

Both 'One Piece's and' Bleach's use of the symbol are, as well as Naruto's, completely irrelevant to the plots of each manga/anime.

In fact, in One Piece: [post-Dressrosa spoiler ahead]

Spoiler

This Vinsmoke kingdom has an army called the Germa 66, an obvious reference to the 666 number, which relies on advanced technology and genetics (another taboo topic from the WWII and cold war periods) but, since they are relevant to the plot, there's no censorship focused on said kingdom.

I think that's a good way to manage censorship. If there's no impact on the story, then why risk any rejection? But if the story could be affected then risking the rejection is the way to go, after all they're trying to sell a full story.

 

[Passion 3,478]

I honestly can say that this kind of censorship is perfectly acceptable. One must make a level-headed call on which censorship is an actual attempt of manipulating people and which is being done for their benefit.

In this particular scenario, just becase (as an example) I would see the symbol differently than the others, it doesn't mean that others would share the view. Given the impact media has when presenting scenarios often in limited context, without sufficient research or factual backup, I can see how (if this was not censored) it could explode in German media and easily be banned.

 

Historical facts outweight personal opinions here. Even though that symbol has different meaning, it has been stigmatized across the majority of world as something else. While its original meaning did not change, it has earned a new one. And while the original one was innocent, it is not up to publishers or me to decide how the rest of the world will want to perceive it.

From marketing standpoint, why risk lowering the sales of your franchise if you can make a tiny, cosmetic change and be done with any kind of medial issues?