Millennium Shadow

Do you believe in magic?

Poll: Is magic real?  

32 members have voted

  1. 1. Is magic real?

    • No, it's not
    • Only as illusions preformed by magicians
    • Yes, magic IS real! -pulls out wand-
    • I'm not sure


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2 hours ago, Arkadios said:

Actually, I just realized this: magic is a secular way of invoking the “god of the gaps.” I’ll explain.

In our world, we have a well-defined set of physical laws that describe how objects behave. Objects can’t behave outside these laws (e.g. under the effects of magic) because that would defy the mathematical logic of those laws. In previous times, we might have explained things by saying “magic” or “the gods did it”, but stuff always happens because of one or more laws’ effects on objects. That’s why magic doesn’t exist here.

In Equestria, where there are no canonical definitions of physical laws and only limited math (which we don’t know if we can apply to other sciences [sorry, Slice of Life, you don’t count]), inconsistent things happen all the time, usually because of magic. Object starts levitating? Direct result of horn power of ill-defined origins and limitations (friendship... or something?). Crystal Mirror stays open all the time now? Result of some kind of magic transference from the one magicky thing to the other and it makes a bridge that can be explained with the Pythagorean theorem in three dimensions (which in our world would be six or seven, depending on if the other world is a separate timeline or a separate universe). It can all be conveniently explained away by magic.

Anyway... science rant over.

For now...

The so-called "laws" of physics was something humans made up so we can have a better understanding how the universe works, as well as a sense of control over everything.

In other works, science is a man-made concept used to make everything explainable and able to be manipulated and controlled.

Magic, on the other hoof, is, in my opinion, just another form of science that the majority of us don't know how to use and usually is dismissed since it plays by its own rules and is more flexible than "traditional" science is.
So, we're kinda holding ourselves back by not diving into the other science that is magic.

And I think you can explain magic in the "traditional" scientific manner, but it'll be a bit more tricky.

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2 hours ago, Snow Frostflame said:

As a child I believed in fairy tales, magic, and the unknown... now as an adult I only believe what can be proven.

That's because kids haven't been brainwashed to have the "everything has a perfectly logical explanation" mentality that takes the faith out of them.
This makes it easier for them to be manipulated and controlled to where they're just expendable slave drones.

Quote

As for your friend, I'm pretty sure she's either messing with you or she's full of it, and you fell for it. I'm sure there is a psychological effect with a name to describe this, but nothing comes to mind.

And by saying, "As for your friend, I'm pretty sure she's either messing with you or she's full of it, and you fell for it," you're doing the classic human controlling tactic of shaming someone for what they believe in to make them conform to your way of thinking so you can feel secure and in control of them.

How's that for psychology? :mlp_smug:

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10 minutes ago, Millennium Shadow said:

That's because kids haven't been brainwashed to have the "everything has a perfectly logical explanation" mentality that takes the faith out of them

I wouldn't call that brainwashing, it's just a natural part of growing up that you stop taking what others tell you at face value and reach your own conclusions about how the world works.

And besides, wouldn't it be easier to control people by not giving them a "everything must have a logical explination" mindset? Otherwise, they're probably just gonna start questioning you sooner or later. 

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Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude, @Millennium Shadow, maaaaaaaaaaan...

Chill out, bruh, we cool.

This isn’t Essence of Religion Forums or Spiritualism Forums or Wake Up Sheeple Forums or Metaphysical Interpretations of Lexical and Observational Uses of the Word “Magic” Forums. This is MLP Forums.

If we were brainwashed, we wouldn’t be watching My Little Pony: Friendship is Rainbow Farts.

*inhales* OOOOOOOOR maybe we watch a pony show because we really are brainwashed into a “all must logic good” mindset and the mental state of the brony is that of a soul desparately crying out for fantasy in a gray world of science and any backlash against bronies is society’s conditioned response which functions as both an extension of norms and an attempt to press our minds back into the mold! *passes out*

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1 minute ago, Arkadios said:

Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude, @Millennium Shadow, maaaaaaaaaaan...

Chill out, bruh, we cool.

This isn’t Essence of Religion Forums or Spiritualism Forums or Wake Up Sheeple Forums or Metaphysical Interpretations of Lexical and Observational Uses of the Word “Magic” Forums. This is MLP Forums.

If we were brainwashed, we wouldn’t be watching My Little Pony: Friendship is Rainbow Farts.

*inhales* OOOOOOOOR maybe we watch a pony show because we really are brainwashed into a “all must logic good” mindset and the mental state of the brony is that of a soul desparately crying out for fantasy in a gray world of science and any backlash against bronies is society’s conditioned response which functions as both an extension of norms and an attempt to press our minds back into the mold! *passes out*

You misunderstood what I was saying.

I was saying that most adults don't really have the flexible mind that kids do. We know that society is dehumanizing and treats us more like pawns instead of living beings. So, we use our imaginations and fantasies to escape so we can still keep what means a lot to us...and our sanity, too, if we're honest.

Here's where the line was "drawn," though: We were told repeatedly that fantasy is fantasy and magic is real, thus, making us more limited and not as flexible in the mind. (BTW, I'm not implying that "flexible" minds are more gullible; I'm saying that flexible minds are more accepting and more curious...like a kids'.)
But there are some of us who want to keep what makes us, well, us because, deep down, the one thing that we know doesn't exist is impossibility.

I know it's a cliché message, but it's still important, nevertheless.

Does that clarify?

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It's not real. If it were real someone would have proved it ages ago. Yet, no one has ever been able to.

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Like many things, magic is something I do not believe in, but damn I wish I could. Would make such a mundane world a bit more memorable.

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If by magic you mean something supernatural, then no, I don't believe in that sort of magic. There are some things I might compare to magic in a poetic sense, but definitely not literally. The closest thing we have to that are illusions spun by talented stage magicians, which are quite a treat.

Edited by Celtore

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So, it depends on what you're meaning by magic. I'm Pagan and I have an altar and do what people would call "magic" but this isn't Harry Potter wand-waving, flying on broomsticks, levitation type of magic.
We work with energies. And these energies can affect the world around you, as all energies within the universe are interconnected. I have done protection rituals, and blessed objects, putting in positive and healing energies into things. Intention is a huge part of it as well, and certain herbs enhance these too. I believe that magic comes in all forms. From marvels or experiences we can't explain, to emotion, intuition, intention, and understanding of life's cycles. Just as obvious, I believe in the Supernatural. While there are some things that can simply be explained away as human created (and people freak out), and that I expect people to understand this and exhaust all methods of human causes before looking to the paranormal; we all know that humans, animals and spirits have an energy and can manipulate them, especially spirits.
There's a reason why it takes certain technologies giving out certain frequencies to capture any sort of paranormal evidence. Such as spirit boxes, electromagnetic manipulation, etc. And as someone who has even witnessed a cup pick itself up off a table and throw itself across a room, smashing into the wall---yeah, it's simply a force of energy manipulation.


So yes, overall I can say I believe in magic. If I didn't, I'd be a pretty poor practitioner, wouldn't I?

Edited by Earl Grey Ghost

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On 11/24/2018 at 4:15 PM, Gestum said:

It's not real. If it were real someone would have proved it ages ago. Yet, no one has ever been able to.

The statement of we would have seen it by now yadda yadda is just silly to me. Ok, we discovered radioactivity in the 1850s ( Source ) We discovered the first object considered to be a black hole in 1971 but had ideas about them since  1916 or so ( Source ) But how long have humans been testing the world? Were black holes or radiation not around before discovery? Nope. Where they not real before proving them to be despite theories about them existing in the case of black holes a good 50 years or so before said proof? No. We lacked the tools and knowledge on proving them that is all 

 

So let's address common questions, shall we? 

1) Why does magic fail so often if its real? 

Do you think you are the only one wanting something? Do we know for sure what magic relies on such as the aid of gods/spirits or other sentient but supernormal life? So there are many very plausible reasons for it not to work. IE crossed desires blocking each other or the gods/spirits not wanting to lend aid. 

 

2) Why can't we measure it or prove it? 

Could be we lack the tools. Could be we lack the knowledge of what to look for. Could be we are trying to put in a lab that which is sacred and thus it would never work under such conditions. We can say that's is wiggling out but those are very viable answers. 

 

3) Why do you believe in something you can't prove or even get to work 100 percent? 

The same reason I carry a ferro rod while camping. Sure it's not anywhere near reliable as modern stuff a lot of the times. But there is something cathartic about connecting to one's roots in times of pressure. Further, something that has been used for a very long time in human history has to have some use or it would not stick around. Even if the use is nothing more than making me feel better I at least get that out of it. 

 

 

In short, I get why people do not believe it but a lot of the objections that get raised do not take life into account and how it's very possible we could be blinding ourselves to the very reasons we can't get the results we want in the first place. 

 

 

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Just now, Jedishy said:

Were black holes or radiation not around before discovery?

No, but back then we had no way of observing those. 

Meanwhile plenty of people nowadays, even some members of this forum, claim to be able to cast magic or having seen somebody else do so. Hence, the existance of magic should have been easily proven by now if it were real.

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3 minutes ago, Sun Wukong said:

No, but back then we had no way of observing those. 

Meanwhile plenty of people nowadays, even some members of this forum, claim to be able to cast magic or having seen somebody else do so. Hence, the existance of magic should have been easily proven by now if it were real.

See points 1 and 2 on my list. They explain exactly why its not as easy as you claim. 

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Just now, Jedishy said:

See points 1 and 2 on my list.

Yeah, they don't really explain anything though. 

 

11 minutes ago, Jedishy said:

1) Why does magic fail so often if its real? 

That's not the question we should be asking. What we should be asking is why does magic only work when nobody is questioning it?

Like, you're trying to tell me that magic and people being able to use it have been around for all of recorded history, but as soon as they gonna prove it's real it stops working? Well, that's really convient. 

14 minutes ago, Jedishy said:

2) Why can't we measure it or prove it? 

Good question. Since magic have a tangible effect, it should be easy to prove it's existance even if we can't figure out how it works or how to measure it. 

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1 minute ago, Sun Wukong said:

Like, you're trying to tell me that magic and people being able to use it have been around for all of recorded history, but as soon as they gonna prove it's real it stops working? Well, that's really convient. 

Already gave an explanation. First, we might not know why it works. Testing it in a lab might be a point of failure. Secondly, if it does require the aid of supernormal beings then they could very well be insulted at profaning sacred gifts and thus doom it to failure. 

Secondly, people point out its unreliability all the time. I gave a reason for this will of the gods. Cross desires. Improper focus or one of a million other possibilities. In short its failures in a lab have many possible answers that people love to dismiss as you just did above. 

 

3 minutes ago, Sun Wukong said:
23 minutes ago, Jedishy said:

 

Good question. Since magic have a tangible effect, it should be easy to prove it's existance even if we can't figure out how it works or how to measure it. 

Explain how you prove its existence if it cant be measured and you dont know the rules to make it reliable. Sorry but lack of that info and ability just leads to the claim of oh its just coincidence etc etc just as you have done in this thread. 

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Just now, Jedishy said:

Testing it in a lab might be a point of failure.

Then don't test it in a lab. Just watch someone who claim to be able to cast magic do so where ever they feel comfortable doing so. 

2 minutes ago, Jedishy said:

Secondly, if it does require the aid of supernormal beings then they could very well be insulted at profaning sacred gifts and thus doom it to failure

Then don't just use it for testing. Use it to heal a sick guy or something. Just something we're capable of seeing the results of.

4 minutes ago, Jedishy said:

Cross desires.

Then use it for something that everybody wants. Like, de-pollution the waters or something.

5 minutes ago, Jedishy said:

Improper focus

Then let's use one of the people who claim to be able to use magic. If they focused enough in the past, they should be able to do so again. 

6 minutes ago, Jedishy said:

Explain how you prove its existence if it cant be measured and you dont know the rules to make it reliable.

Take one of those people who claim to have crystals capable of curing cancer. Let her use said crystal to cure the cancer of people not having any other treatment. Repeat the process until you can't claim it's coincide. 

There, that be proving magic without knowing how it works or how to measure it. 

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25 minutes ago, Jedishy said:

The statement of we would have seen it by now yadda yadda is just silly to me

Is it? Magic has been "practiced" by pretty much every civilisation in human history. Surely someone would have been abled to provide some sort of proof that it works by now. 

Also you can't really claim that we lack the tools to prove it when thousands of people claim to be able to use magic. How can they be able to use it if it can't be proven to exists? 

 

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Just now, Sun Wukong said:

Then don't test it in a lab. Just watch someone who claim to be able to cast magic do so where ever they feel comfortable doing so. 

12 minutes ago, Jedishy said:

Observation impacts reality ( source  ) So it might not be possible 

2 minutes ago, Sun Wukong said:

Then don't just use it for testing. Use it to heal a sick guy or something. Just something we're capable of seeing the results of.

13 minutes ago, Jedishy said:

Faith healers supposedly do it all the time but its dismissed sooooo 

 

3 minutes ago, Sun Wukong said:

 Then use it for something that everybody wants. Like, de-pollution the waters or something.

14 minutes ago, Jedishy said:

There is nothing everyone wants and wants to pay the price for. You claim clean the waters. Oh wait that would shut down factories and put people out of jobs. Never mind the will of the gods or supernatural. 

4 minutes ago, Sun Wukong said:

Then let's use one of the people who claim to be able to use magic. If they focused enough in the past, they should be able to do so again. 

16 minutes ago, Jedishy said:

Under observation? Oh wait that could impact things as shown in answer one. Never mind that this was one reason for a point of failure among many 

 

6 minutes ago, Sun Wukong said:

Take one of those people who claim to have crystals capable of curing cancer. Let her use said crystal to cure the cancer of people not having any other treatment. Repeat the process until you can't claim it's coincide. 

There, that be proving magic without knowing how it works or how to measure it. 

All that would prove or disprove is the impact of the crystals in that situation. Not magic as a whole. Most claims like that would be said to be charlatans by most magical practitioners. Most using it know results are not guaranteed and often come in unexpected ways 

An example I pray regularly for resources to start a project of mine when I buy lotto. Never really win. Oh wait but I win five here one there. Are these the resources I am supposed to save up and set aside for my project and I stupidly misunderstood the results? Very possible 

6 minutes ago, Gestum said:

Is it? Magic has been "practiced" by pretty much every civilisation in human history. Surely someone would have been abled to provide some sort of proof that it works by now. 

Also you can't really claim that we lack the tools to prove it when thousands of people claim to be able to use magic. How can they be able to use it if it can't be proven to exists? 

People have given proofs that are dismissed all the time. Hawking doubted the first black hole found and lost a bet due to it. Doubt and hardship proving it are not any proof that it does not exist. 

If I told people in 1400 BC that they got a tumor due to radiation without the tools to show them why they got it tell me why would they believe me? Would it change the tumor? In short, I do not expect people to believe as I do but we know that observation impacts reality as shown with point one above that at least give the possibility that magic exists and we just do not get it yet 

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2 minutes ago, Gestum said:

Is it? Magic has been "practiced" by pretty much every civilization in human history. Surely someone would have been abled to provide some sort of proof that it works by now. 

Also you can't really claim that we lack the tools to prove it when thousands of people claim to be able to use magic. How can they be able to use it if it can't be proven to exists? 

I can understand how, if magic was more accessible, literally everybody would use it to kill each and control everybody.

But I'm pretty sure there are people out there who use magic or a regular basis, but decide to hide it their abilities so they wouldn't either...
A. Get exploited by others so they won't have to do it themselves.
B. Get killed due to having abilities that regular human can't control just so they can save their own flanks.

1 minute ago, Jedishy said:

First, we might not know why it works. Testing it in a lab might be a point of failure.

Magic and sciences have been considered to be polar opposites, but I believe magic and science are more related than we realize.
To me, science is about learning about the properties of things, and magic is about controlling the properties of things.

If that make sense.

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Just now, Jedishy said:

People have given proofs that are dismissed all the time. Hawking doubted the first black hole found and lost a bet due to it. Doubt and hardship proving it are not any proof that it does not exist. 

Yeah, but what proof has been given to prove the existence of magic? Nothing but people claiming but failing to prove that they can use it. And it's not like people haven't tried to provide evidence for the existence of magic, people have been trying to do so for literary thousands of years. 

12 minutes ago, Millennium Shadow said:

But I'm pretty sure there are people out there who use magic or a regular basis, but decide to hide it their abilities so they wouldn't either...

Right, but that doesn't explain the thousands of people claiming to be able to use magic openly. They're not hiding, so why can't they provide some evidence that it exists? 

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26 minutes ago, Jedishy said:

Observation impacts reality ( source  ) So it might not be possible

Cool, except that comparison falls apart fairly quickly once you realise that this is phenomenon is constant, and just doesn't magically appear whenever it's convient for the researchers.

26 minutes ago, Jedishy said:

Faith healers supposedly do it all the time but its dismissed soooo

Odd how they're never capable of healing people who are able to prove they were sick before visiting them.

26 minutes ago, Jedishy said:

There is nothing everyone wants and wants to pay the price for.

Yeah yeah, then just use something that nobody cares about. Like, magically make my toaster burn my bread slightly less. 

26 minutes ago, Jedishy said:

All that would prove or disprove is the impact of the crystals in that situation

But that be pretty relevant, since it's prove the existence of the supernatural.

26 minutes ago, Jedishy said:

Most claims like that would be said to be charlatans by most magical practitioners.

And that's relevant how? Why should I assume that most magical practiconals aren't the ones who are wrong? Neither side can prove jack shit.

But whatever, then just use a guy who can use magic to do [X], have him do [X] via magic, repeat until you no longer can claim coincidence. Bam, magic proven. 

26 minutes ago, Jedishy said:

Hawking doubted the first black hole found and lost a bet due to it. Do

 This would be a more fit comparisons had the first black hole been found 2000 years ago and we still wouldn't have any proof of it.

26 minutes ago, Millennium Shadow said:

But I'm pretty sure there are people out there who use magic or a regular basis, but decide to hide it their abilities so they wouldn't either...

What about those that don't? There's thousands of people claiming to be able to use magic, why haven't they just proven there capable of doing so by now?

Edited by Sun Wukong

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11 minutes ago, Gestum said:

Right, but that doesn't explain the thousands of people claiming to be able to use magic openly. They're not hiding, so why can't they provide some evidence that it exists? 

6 minutes ago, Sun Wukong said:

What about those that don't? There's thousands of people claiming to be able to use magic, why haven't they just proven there capable of doing so by now?

As I said, they did, indeed show their abilities, they'd either...
A. Get exploited by others so they won't have to do it themselves.
B. Get killed due to having abilities that regular humans can't control just so they can save their own flanks.

Edited by Millennium Shadow

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Just now, Millennium Shadow said:

As I said, they did, indeed show their abilities, they'd either...

Yeah no. Thousands, if not millions, of people have claimed of being able to use magic in public. Are you telling me all of them have gotten killed because of it? And every single one got killed before they were able to prove that their abilities were real.

 

 

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24 minutes ago, Gestum said:

Yeah, but what proof has been given to prove the existence of magic? Nothing but people claiming but failing to prove that they can use it. And it's not like people haven't tried to provide evidence for the existence of magic, people have been trying to do so for literary thousands of years. 

I have already explained why it might not be testable. I have shown the mere observation impacts reality. As such it shows that observing it could change outcomes never mind supernormal influences. Further, you say why can't the prove it I gave reasons in my first post and every post since then. You just do not find them valid. Which is my point. What proof that is offered is always dismissed and yet you keep clamoring " prove it ". Well, examples and reasons were given and they are dismissed. IE no tools to measure and no rules to make it reliable will lead to your never believing anything put forward. 

 

19 minutes ago, Sun Wukong said:

Cool, except that comparison falls apart fairly quickly once you realise that this is phenomenon is constant, and just doesn't magically appear whenever it's convient for the researchers.

You do realize that there is so much lacking with your response right? Let's see. Magic uses energy ( of what sort people differ ) We can't measure this energy how do we have consistent energy levels we can't measure. It requires human minds which are impacted by so many things it's not funny. It often uses implements that will be varied such as amounts of herbs types of herbs energy levels and qualities of the herbs etc etc. IE there are so many variables that if we do not know 100% the rules yet and lack the tools to test things we can't get consistency in experiments. Never mind the fact that observation could lead to a consistent point of failure. ( IE doubting energies of the skeptics observing leads to failure as a result of contamination for lack of a better explanation ) 

 

19 minutes ago, Sun Wukong said:

Odd how they're never capable of healing people who are able to prove they were sick before visiting them.

46 minutes ago, Jedishy said:

Well if their healing comes via faith proof would sorta be against the practice, wouldn't it? Never mind there are indeed cases of spontaneous remissions of disease that doctors can't for the life of them explain. 

19 minutes ago, Sun Wukong said:

Yeah yeah, then just use something that nobody cares about. Like, magically make my toast burn my bread slightly less. 

46 minutes ago, Jedishy said:

Do you use a sledgehammer to put a nail in to hang a picture? Could that not be another point of failure? A mundane request being ignored? 

19 minutes ago, Sun Wukong said:

But that be pretty relevant, since it's prove the existence of the supernatural.

46 minutes ago, Jedishy said:

Only if it worked. If it did not work it only proves those crystals or that person is a fake or failed at the time/s of testing. 

 

19 minutes ago, Sun Wukong said:

And that's relevant how? Why should I assume that most magical practiconals aren't the ones who are wrong? Neither side can prove jack shit.

But whatever, then just use a guy who can use magic to do [X], have him do [X] via magic, repeat until you no longer can claim coincidence. Bam, magic proven. 

Already explained its not 100% reliable. We do not know the rules to it nor can you do it in a lab. So all we will get is claims of its faked, it's inside the realm of coincidence etc etc. I do not expect you to believe any particular claim. But the proof that mere observation can impact reality and a molecular level leaves a very real possibility 

 

19 minutes ago, Sun Wukong said:

 This would be a more fit comparisons had the first black hole been found 2000 years ago and we still wouldn't have any proof of it.

45 minutes ago, Millennium Shadow said:

The point here is the same as in my first post. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. 

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2 minutes ago, Sun Wukong said:

Yeah no. Thousands, if not millions, of people have claimed of being able to use magic in public. Are you telling me all of them have gotten killed because of it? And every single one got killed before they were able to prove that their abilities were real.

That's not what I meant. :yeahno:

If someone does us magic publicly, they'd do it in a way were it's not really noticeable. I mean, since everybody is superglued to their phones these days, I don't think anybody would even noticed if you decide to turn someone into a frog or something in front of them. :derp:

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1 hour ago, Jedishy said:

Could be we lack the tools. Could be we lack the knowledge of what to look for. Could be we are trying to put in a lab that which is sacred and thus it would never work under such conditions. We can say that's is wiggling out but those are very viable answers. 

Like how we know there's ultraviolet light, but we can't see it because our eyes aren't able to detect it. :squee:

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