Azureth

Is Rarity the most traditionally feminine mare in Equestria?

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I dunno, all those Manehattanites could give her a run for her money.

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All the mane 6 are very feminine IMO. I'm not sure what 'traditionally' feminine really means since there has always been a large variety of feminine personalities and even trends...for ages and ages.

Personally, I think Rarity is your uptown girl sort, but I don't think that makes her more feminine than the others.

Rainbow Dash for instance is very soft, sensitive and nuturing in her own way...it just takes certain situations to bring it out because she is reserved about it. That is, she protects her femininity as the most precious thing about her, so only very few are worthy to see it.

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I think both Rarity and Fluttershy would split the vote on that one.  Pinky  would be next, followed by Twilight, while AJ and Dash would be considered more tomboyish.  

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34 minutes ago, Mirage said:

I think Rarity is your uptown girl sort,

You had to see this coming sooner or later:

:laugh:

  • Brohoof 3
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There isn't just one kind of female. All the female ponies are depicted as feminine in their own unique ways. It's one of the reasons I love the show so much.

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1 hour ago, DonMaguz said:

Rarity and Fluttershy among the mane 6.

Mi Amore Cadenza in the whole realm.

I think all three are different stereotypes of femininity;

  • Rarity
    Rarity is a stereotypical "modern" female - obscessed with her appearance, frequently buys beauty treatments and wears makeup, has special talents around gems and has a career around dressmaking; socially ambitious.
  • Fluttershy
    Fluttershy is a more traditional female stereotype - nationally recognised natural beauty, nurturing and kind (literally the element of kindness), Shy and self-effacing, special talents around caring for animals, strength though determination, and her emergent ability (the Stare and accompanying talkdown) are usually portrayed as "mom" abilities (the "mom" look and the "mom" voice) in other works.
  • Cadence
    The "disney princess" of the MLP world; her first portrayal in the show mirrors this, with being a literal princess, having largely supporting talents and no apparent interest in the world other than being the bride of a strong male. She develops a bit from there, but not much.

While all of the mane 6 are of course feminine in their own ways, you could look at them as being either introverted OR extroverted, and either feminine, "tomboyish" or neutral in their expression of their sexuality. We also have the two sisters, with the Matriarchical Celestia and the more maternal and nurturing Luna (who, it seems, is pretty Fluttershy-like in that)

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30 minutes ago, CypherHoof said:

We also have the two sisters, with the Matriarchical Celestia and the more maternal and nurturing Luna (who, it seems, is pretty Fluttershy-like in that)

It's hard to find evidence of Luna being 'nurturing' and 'maternal' in the show though. She's actually depicted as being a social misfit, ultra sensitive and somewhat cold. Although she exhibits honor and valor, and decent manners, she does not find it easy, or comforting, to nurture and coddle others like Fluttershy does. I just don't see any similarity at all from the show. Luna needs to be guided and cajoled into being warm and approachable - it does not come naturally to her. This is why 'A Royal Problem' was not only believable but hilarious.

My gist is that Luna desires to be a nurturer, but doesn't have the self-esteem to be comfortable with it, yet. A warrior and defender, yes. A comforter and relater? Not enough to be considered an example of as such. If anything, Luna is more akin to the 'Joan of Arc' type. She is a heroic sweetheart.

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1 minute ago, Mirage said:

It's hard to find evidence of Luna being 'nurturing' and 'maternal' in the show though. She's actually depicted as being a social misfit, ultra sensitive and somewhat cold.

Although she exhibits honor and valor, and decent manners, she does not find it easy, or comforting, to nurture and coddle others like Fluttershy does. I just don't see any similarity at all from the show. 

Basing that mostly on her interactions in the Dream realm with the CMC. Luna is not as simple as the stereotype, I can agree.

In each of the three CMC intervention episodes, we see Luna protecting and guiding the filly she is helping, to do the right thing. In two of those, she isn't confined to the Dream realm while doing so - although the one with Scoots could just be an appropriately timed memory, she was clearly present for Sweetie Belle to give her the thread, needle, and idea of how to "improve" her sister's work.

 

1 minute ago, Mirage said:

Luna needs to be guided and cajoled into being warm and approachable - it does not come naturally to her. This is why 'A Royal Problem' was not only believable but hilarious.

In a Royal problem she seems to have reverted to preteen bickering with her sister; this is actually very common, so completely believable. More importantly though, it is clear that the tensions that led to nightmare moon in the first place were never resolved, despite Luna's creation of the Tantabus to punsh herself for her previous fall; GlimGlam's intervention helped her see how hard her sister had to work, and her sister to see how hard (and lonely) Luna's role really is.  For "warm and approachable" you could say the same about Celestia, who HAS had time to evolve with her subjects, but whose role as the matriarch (and perhaps, her long rule over much shorter-lived ponies) has placed a gap between her and them (her interaction with Twilight being an exception of course, plus her reassurance of GlimGlam at the end of the episode, which seems much more like the modern Luna than something we would expect from Celestia.)  Her concern in RP is also notable - despite being rescued from what was possibly her first ever true nightmare, her primary concern was in lessening the impact to GlimGlam's psyche from her extended nightmare, than her own problem or her ongoing disagreement with her sister.

 

1 minute ago, Mirage said:

My gist is that Luna desires to be a nurturer, but doesn't have the self-esteem to be comfortable with it, yet. A warrior and defender, yes. A comforter and relater? Not enough to be considered an example of as such. If anything, Luna is more akin to the 'Joan of Arc' type. She is a heroic sweetheart.

Somewhat a work in progress - but in her interactions with the ponies she protects (which to be fair we only really see with the CMC) she appears wise, protective and nurturing; I found her choice as ghost of heartswarming yet to come as entirely appropriate (and of course that gave us a great song :D )

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3 hours ago, A.V. said:

You had to see this coming sooner or later:

:laugh:

One of my favourite songs!!!!

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1 hour ago, CypherHoof said:

Basing that mostly on her interactions in the Dream realm with the CMC. Luna is not as simple as the stereotype, I can agree.

In each of the three CMC intervention episodes, we see Luna protecting and guiding the filly she is helping, to do the right thing. In two of those, she isn't confined to the Dream realm while doing so - although the one with Scoots could just be an appropriately timed memory, she was clearly present for Sweetie Belle to give her the thread, needle, and idea of how to "improve" her sister's work.

This is true but look at the circumstance - dreams are Luna's element. It's her job, basically, to guide the little ones and I don't disagree that this important role of hers is precious - but is it feminine? Not really. Luna's comforting comes from a place of strength and guidance, even humor. While the feminine will console and coddle and that alone is what provides comfort and security - there needn't be any explaining or challenging of fears. It's actually more masculine to explain and to challenge - 'face your fears'. I would say Femininity doesn't do that, femininity consoles simply because it is needed and for no other reason. That in and of itself is extremely valuable to a being's emotional health. Therefore plainly the Fluttershy approach. Perhaps by maternal you mean the 'mamma bear' protector, but Luna turns that on its head a bit. While the maternal instinct is to stay safe, the 'protection' role is more a last resort than the full frontal that Luna exhibits. With a few exceptions, maternal tendencies run and hide, stay out of trouble, keep their heads low, in order to keep the young safe. Luna faces trouble directly, and fearlessly.

1 hour ago, CypherHoof said:

In a Royal problem she seems to have reverted to preteen bickering with her sister; this is actually very common, so completely believable. More importantly though, it is clear that the tensions that led to nightmare moon in the first place were never resolved, despite Luna's creation of the Tantabus to punsh herself for her previous fall; GlimGlam's intervention helped her see how hard her sister had to work, and her sister to see how hard (and lonely) Luna's role really is.  For "warm and approachable" you could say the same about Celestia, who HAS had time to evolve with her subjects, but whose role as the matriarch (and perhaps, her long rule over much shorter-lived ponies) has placed a gap between her and them (her interaction with Twilight being an exception of course, plus her reassurance of GlimGlam at the end of the episode, which seems much more like the modern Luna than something we would expect from Celestia.)  Her concern in RP is also notable - despite being rescued from what was possibly her first ever true nightmare, her primary concern was in lessening the impact to GlimGlam's psyche from her extended nightmare, than her own problem or her ongoing disagreement with her sister.

Luna is far more interested in protection and self-sacrifice...neither of which are owned by femininity. She was plainly awkward in social tasks - this was my point from my former post. Luna isn't really interested in social grace, which is a strong feminine trait (Twilight Sparkle, Princess Cadance). I do not dispute that Luna is extraordinarily moral and conscientious, and does so in a uniquely feminine manner...but it's a stretch to say she exhibits 'nurturing' and 'maternal' as strong feminine qualities. I think she desires them as such...but has a long way to go.

 

1 hour ago, CypherHoof said:

Somewhat a work in progress - but in her interactions with the ponies she protects (which to be fair we only really see with the CMC) she appears wise, protective and nurturing; I found her choice as ghost of heartswarming yet to come as entirely appropriate (and of course that gave us a great song :D )

As the fearsome ghost of the future, Luna is definitely at her best. Princess Luna is a fearsome being. Humor and social tact aside (and the fear of becoming Nightmare Moon again), she is at her heart, a being of incredible power that desires order and justice. She is more like a samurai than a mother. More specifically, she is a samurai who wishes for a world that didn't require the use of swords so she could live in peace as a mother.

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Yes, her charade is certainly, as you describe it, very traditional in terms of archaic female customs. I can't imagine how is like to lie and pretend in front of others. What purpose does her feminine acting serve, other than to manipulate gullible fools and mentally underdeveloped dragons?

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I'd say she's tied neck and neck with Fluttershy in that category. They're both pretty traditionally feminine.

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Let's be real: Rarity is a dressmaker and a miner. Her special talent with gems doesn't stop at her being able to locate them, right? I can guarantee that if she wasn't a unicorn (or wasn't dragging Spike along) she'd be digging in that dirt with a shovel or her bare hooves, if she had to.

It's already been said, but there are many types of femininity. xP

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On 12/16/2018 at 1:04 PM, cuteycindyhoney said:

There isn't just one kind of female. All the female ponies are depicted as feminine in their own unique ways. It's one of the reasons I love the show so much.

EXACTLY!

Femininity has too many facets to be encompassed by one type alone. I know complete tomboys that I consider feminine in their own unique ways. Sure, Rarity is feminine, but 'traditional' femininity depends on what you consider traditional. I think Fluttershy would probably fit many depictions of 'traditional' more closely than Rarity (even though Rarity is my favorite!)

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Rarity is very feminine as is, but not traditionally speaking. Traditionally speaking, I consider Fluttershy and Cadance the most feminine girls of the show (more Cadance than Flutters even). 

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I'm going to need to come down on the all of them are feminine in their own way's but even if you limit to "traditional" they all have their moments usually involving young children . . .

 

1) Twilight and Rainbow Dash are basically adoptive mothers in the role of the show. Twilight raised Spike from an egg while one of the few times we see Rainbow Dash voluntarily walking over flying is when she needs to comfort Scootaloo and has her wing over her.

2) Applejack seems to be playing the major role in raising Apple Bloom as her older sister.

3) Rarity is in some weird relationship with Sweetie Belle their parents are alive and presumably around but most of the time Sweetie Belle is at her place and say's she doesn't think Rarity would want her wandering Equestria in search of cutie mark problems.

4) Fluttershy is basically mothering every single animal she can get her hooves on.

 

Move away from "traditional" which is frankly a bit of an issue as what is traditonal varies between cultures and they still have large feminine moments that fit with their personality.

1) Rarity is the most obvious as an upwardly mobile socialite looking for her prince, dresses and make up etc though she is quite capable of taking care of herself when she needs to even if it is by whining till she drives the diamond dogs mad. Of course when prince charming turns out to be a lout she simply hits him in the face with a cake and sets about establishing her own reputation amongst the upper class as a cultured business mare.

2) Applejack is more of a tough love, common sense farmgirl willing to pick up tools and fix a leak to help a friend.

3) Rainbow Dash is a tomboy who still has a tender side as shown when she tries to stop winter for the sake of her pet then falls apart when it doesn't work.

4) Fluttershy enjoys crochet and is more of a gentle personality quite willing to get her hooves dirty gardening or tending for animals but not the most assertive personality.

5) Twilight is the bookish, studious girl who wants to learn as much as she can to make her mother figure (Celestia) proud but lacks real world experience.

 

They're even borderline "traditional" in same cases while staying true to these personalities. You could run into them in the real world and if you weren't startled by the fact they were talking ponies not see them as any different to any other girl you might run into.

Edited by Senko

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Rarity is definitely one of the most feminine by... mm... y'know, typical standards.  Yeah.  But here's the thing about the gender spectrum (femininity/masculinity): we have to ask ourselves--what exactly is femininity or masculinity?  Why is it that we think a particular thing or trait is one or the other?  I would say it's because that's the way that the majority feels.  In other words, if most women seem to have a certain trait, or like a certain thing, then we'll probably feel that it's feminine.  But if that trait or characteristic or what have you, changed dramatically over time (we could be talking evolutionary time scale, here), then opinions and perceptions would be completely different.  For instance, if people and culture evolved, and one day, maybe hundreds or thousands of years from now, it turned out that the majority of men liked wearing dresses, maybe people would start associating dresses with masculinity.  My point is that I think it's a very fluid thing, and about as far from cold hard facts as you can get.  Unlike basic biology, what we consider to be masculine or feminine seems to be entirely based on our opinions and how we feel.  Now, I'm not saying that masculinity and femininity aren't rooted in biology.  I'm just suggesting that what we call it, what we consider one or the other, seems very open to change.  So, for instance, can we say that it's a scientific fact that dresses are feminine, and monster trucks are masculine?  I would say no.  These are opinions and perceptions.  Some other intelligent alien species might view it all completely differently.

On 12/16/2018 at 8:46 AM, Mirage said:

Rainbow Dash for instance is very soft, sensitive and nuturing in her own way...it just takes certain situations to bring it out because she is reserved about it. That is, she protects her femininity as the most precious thing about her, so only very few are worthy to see it. 

What a fascinating perspective!  I like it.  And that's what makes these characters so good--the depth and room for this sort of analysis.

On 12/16/2018 at 11:04 AM, cuteycindyhoney said:

There isn't just one kind of female. All the female ponies are depicted as feminine in their own unique ways. It's one of the reasons I love the show so much.

F&CK YEAH, DUDE!  :D

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6 hours ago, Justin_Case001 said:

Rarity is definitely one of the most feminine by... mm... y'know, typical standards.  Yeah.  But here's the thing about the gender spectrum (femininity/masculinity): we have to ask ourselves--what exactly is femininity or masculinity?  Why is it that we think a particular thing or trait is one or the other?  I would say it's because that's the way that the majority feels.  In other words, if most women seem to have a certain trait, or like a certain thing, then we'll probably feel that it's feminine.  But if that trait or characteristic or what have you, changed dramatically over time (we could be talking evolutionary time scale, here), then opinions and perceptions would be completely different.  For instance, if people and culture evolved, and one day, maybe hundreds or thousands of years from now, it turned out that the majority of men liked wearing dresses, maybe people would start associating dresses with masculinity.  My point is that I think it's a very fluid thing, and about as far from cold hard facts as you can get.  Unlike basic biology, what we consider to be masculine or feminine seems to be entirely based on our opinions and how we feel.  Now, I'm not saying that masculinity and femininity aren't rooted in biology.  I'm just suggesting that what we call it, what we consider one or the other, seems very open to change.  So, for instance, can we say that it's a scientific fact that dresses are feminine, and monster trucks are masculine?  I would say no.  These are opinions and perceptions.  Some other intelligent alien species might view it all completely differently.

What a fascinating perspective!  I like it.  And that's what makes these characters so good--the depth and room for this sort of analysis.

F&CK YEAH, DUDE!  :D

Good point in fact I think tradtionally the colour blue was a feminine colour and red/pink was a masculine one only they switched towards the begining of the last century and now people asociate blue with boys.

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Maybe? If your definition of feminie is to be someone who creates dresses and has their own business that sells those dresses for customers.

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Hasbro told the creators to make Rarity the most feminine of the mane 6. All of the others don’t care about dresses, makeup, and hair like she does. That’s the side of her that Rarity wants everyone to see. There is another side of her that anyone rarely sees. Like when she gets depressed, she pigs out on ice cream. 

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22 hours ago, Dreambiscuit said:

EXACTLY!

Femininity has too many facets to be encompassed by one type alone. I know complete tomboys that I consider feminine in their own unique ways. Sure, Rarity is feminine, but 'traditional' femininity depends on what you consider traditional. I think Fluttershy would probably fit many depictions of 'traditional' more closely than Rarity (even though Rarity is my favorite!)

I hope nopony takes this the wrong way. But Fluttershy's way with animals to me is very feminine. Just look at how she nurtures them. I think Fluttershy is destined to be a great mommy, some day.

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