FlareGun45

Starlight doesn't deserve the hate

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1 minute ago, Key Sharkz said:

How can you be so certain that it would be the opposite then?

Never said it would be the opposite nor did I mean to imply it so if my sloppy wording lead to that I apologize. All I meant is that everyone has a plan until it hits the wall and then reactions come into play that we did not predict. 

3 minutes ago, Key Sharkz said:

Does that count for nothing unless you spend time in prison prior to doing good things?

She should have been punished prior WAY prior. Further, it does not count for nothing. Good behavior gets reduced sentencing all the time. However she has done NOTHING to repay those she hurt directly. Nor do I think she can really. So she needs to face the music for what she did. 

 

4 minutes ago, Key Sharkz said:

Are you seriously comparing Starlight to rapists and kidnappers?

A. You brought it into the real world. If we want to talk IRL then we need to it apply to the worst crimes or its useless. B. She did kidnap the Mane Six. Further there is hints of torture via brainwashing. So yea pretty bad crimes. 

5 minutes ago, Key Sharkz said:

Why is a punishment NECESSARY?

Because when you hurt people you need to answer for it. You do not get to say oh I did xyz for years but over the last year or so I was real real good so who cares about those I hurt and all the suffering they went through. Its necessary b

 

9 minutes ago, KH7672 said:

The Mane 6 didn't just refuse to comply, they threatened the existence of her cult and which that she has to take action.

*Also the Nightmare Moon thing was referring to the alternate future version of her.

Because the victim is who I care about. I care about the justice for those hurt not a snake oil selling criminal pretending to be "good now"

 

10 minutes ago, KH7672 said:

They feel safe with the community, and they all live by the same standards. Yes cults cut ties with the outside world, yes cults punish those that don't follow the rules, that's part of the rules. The Mane 6 didn't just refuse to comply, they threatened the existence of her cult and which that she has to take action.

*Also the Nightmare Moon thing was referring to the alternate future version of her.

The problem is that brainwashing takes away the ability to decide to leave. Further, they threatened the existence of the cult sorry they wanted to show people there is another way and this justifies locking them up and subjecting them to brainwashing? Nah that is criminal behavior that is mental enslavement. Making people fearful of leaving is exactly what abusive spouses do what the leaders of Jones Town did. You do not get to set up a situation where people are unhappy and want to change it but cant. Starlight would not give people their cutiemark back. She would not let her experement fail. She showed her use of force when it was threatened. That is criminal and abusive. 

Oh and that NMM well does that really count? 

 

5 minutes ago, Key Sharkz said:

Also worth pointing out, imprisonment and punishment in Equestria NEVER WORKS.

 

Ok this is the only point I gotta give you. Maybe that means the prison system needs reform not doing away with. One can punish and rehabilitate at the same time. So I will agree there. 

 

1 minute ago, Key Sharkz said:

I think that's a very vindictive way of thinking and showing that people need to really re-consider how they view the world in my opinion.

I think that you are ignoring the victims and making things right by them. You are saying any amount of suffering can be washed clean because a person decides to be nice now. If Jeffry Dhamer never got caught and showed up after two years saying yea I did all those bad things but I am better now and I have created toys for tots would that be ok? Sorry nah people need to answer for what they did. Good deeds cant wash away crime all that is, is the moral equivalent of a body spray shower over an unwashed backside. You still stink you just smell of flowers too. 

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1 minute ago, gingerninja666 said:

This. ONe can make the argument that the show SHOULD demonstrate the effectiveness of punishment more often. But it literally never has. Little lasting good has ever come of just locking someone up compared to rehabilitation..

Piggybacking off of this:

Even in the REAL world we've proven punishment over rehabilitation DOESN'T WORK.

Countries with more lenient prison systems that focus more on rehabilitation have less repeat offenders. America has one of the highest repeat offender rates in the first world, despite having a very "harsh" prison system than most. The reality is when people insist Starlight "needs" to be punished for what she did and care more about that than the progress she's made and the efforts she's made to make things right shows that their view on the world is very vindictive and spiteful.

I care more that bad things stop happening and the people doing them change (within reason, naturally there is such thing as going too far).

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I don't get it why it should be a big deal about punishing or forgiving a fictional character. The writers main focus is pushing the lessons about how these villain can learn from their mistake after choosing to reform. They wouldn't even give a crap about of punishing them if the lesson is sufficient and get the massage through for the viewers. I mean, why would they need to?  It's all in the conveniences for the lore. Cozy Glow is being punished because she haven't reformed yet. (If you guys are trying to compare her with Starlight.)

Overall, it's ridiculous to take it literal anyways just because our world isn't all that forgiving, while a fictional world is.  It's cartoon logic. 

 

Edited by TBD

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If Starlight were a real individual, I would definitely agree that brainwashing a town and nearly ending the world several times over due to time travel is worthy of severe punishments. The catch? Starlight is not real; she is a fictional character, thus, a vessel to deliver a certain message and/or entertain. The point is not that lying to masses of people and nearly causing cataclysms is acceptable, it is that Starlight was pursuing a noble (but misguided) goal. If Starlight were to do something mildly rude, it would not be anywhere near as entertaining as traveling in time to erase a certain event, even if it taught the same lesson.

In other words, I believe people are equating reality to fiction far too much. If someone were to nearly end the world by stealing all major country's nuclear launch codes and falsifying launch threats (regardless of motive), for example, then yes; severe punishments would be in order... but this cannot be compared to Starlight's actions. My Little Pony is a fictional series aiming to teach children lessons about friendship, so drama and exaggeration are inevitable.

Granted, the connotations can certainly be a delicate thing to handle, but I trust that all of us know the line between fiction and reality, especially when time travel is involved.

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Just now, Jedishy said:

Never said it would be the opposite nor did I mean to imply it so if my sloppy wording lead to that I apologize. All I meant is that everyone has a plan until it hits the wall and then reactions come into play that we did not predict. 

 

At the time of, everyone will be emotional. After the fact, people begin to be capable of more logical thinking and start to consider the reality they find themselves in.

Just now, Jedishy said:

She should have been punished prior WAY prior. Further, it does not count for nothing. Good behavior gets reduced sentencing all the time. However she has done NOTHING to repay those she hurt directly. Nor do I think she can really. So she needs to face the music for what she did. 

What exactly did she do that has left others not whole? The "enslaved" actually gave up their cutie marks willingly, and when given them back they forgave her and continued with their lives. Who is left in want? Who is left angry at her? We haven't seen a single pony that has been "damaged" because of her. They all didn't want her punished, they saw her actions as just a misguided attempt to help them.

1 minute ago, Jedishy said:

A. You brought it into the real world. If we want to talk IRL then we need to it apply to the worst crimes or its useless. B. She did kidnap the Mane Six. Further there is hints of torture via brainwashing. So yea pretty bad crimes. 

2

Rape is not even comparable, so I don't see why you would bring that up. And TECHNICALLY what she did was considered illegal detainment. Or capture and release since she didn't TORTURE them. She took their cutie marks, but torture would imply she subjected them to insane inhumane treatment... They were locked in a house. It wasn't THAT extreme.

Also, who is to say that we need to apply the mentality to ALL crimes? Obviously, I know there is a HUGE difference between holding someone in a room for 2 days and RAPE. I'm not even CLOSE to suggesting we should use the same mentality, but again: ALL of the affected parties are made whole already, so what is there to punish? In the case of rape or murder you CAN'T make the affected parties whole because the damage to them is life-long or forever. It's A COMPLETELY different animal.

4 minutes ago, Jedishy said:

Because when you hurt people you need to answer for it. You do not get to say oh I did xyz for years but over the last year or so I was real real good so who cares about those I hurt and all the suffering they went through. Its necessary b

 

Problem is, the "hurt" people do not seem to be that hurt over it anymore. They all chose to forgive. So why should we punish her now? Seems arbitrary and spiteful. To do it just because we feel like doing it, even though all affected are no longer hurting and do not wish it? You would go against the wishes of the victims and punish her? Seems spiteful and pointless to me.

5 minutes ago, Jedishy said:

Because the victim is who I care about. I care about the justice for those hurt not a snake oil selling criminal pretending to be "good now"

 

Again, produce one "victim" who still feels like they haven't been made whole. We have yet to see one. You're argument more or less is built upon the grounds of "doing it for the victims", but the evidence clearly shows you're doing the opposite of what the victims want. They actually have forgiven her and want her to be happy and are proud of her. An episode blatantly states this.

7 minutes ago, Jedishy said:

The problem is that brainwashing takes away the ability to decide to leave. Further, they threatened the existence of the cult sorry they wanted to show people there is another way and this justifies locking them up and subjecting them to brainwashing? Nah that is criminal behavior that is mental enslavement. Making people fearful of leaving is exactly what abusive spouses do what the leaders of Jones Town did. You do not get to set up a situation where people are unhappy and want to change it but cant. Starlight would not give people their cutiemark back. She would not let her experement fail. She showed her use of force when it was threatened. That is criminal and abusive. 

Again, the crux of your argument relies on producing victims that are saying they want punishment for her, and you can not do that. The reality is that YOU want punishment, but the affected did not.

8 minutes ago, Jedishy said:

I think that you are ignoring the victims and making things right by them. You are saying any amount of suffering can be washed clean because a person decides to be nice now. If Jeffry Dhamer never got caught and showed up after two years saying yea I did all those bad things but I am better now and I have created toys for tots would that be ok? Sorry nah people need to answer for what they did. Good deeds cant wash away crime all that is, is the moral equivalent of a body spray shower over an unwashed backside. You still stink you just smell of flowers too. 

I'm not going to humor the comparison of Jeffry Dhamer.

However, again you keep saying that I am ignoring the "victims" and making things right by them... But an EPISODE BLATANTLY SHOWS THE VICTIMS ARE WHOLE AND THEY WANT TO FORGIVE HER. You can not produce a victim that is not whole and that is advocating for her to be punished.

Stop using the shield of "the victims" to push your own wishes and just admit that you personally want punishment because you have convinced yourself that punishment will somehow make the situation better when we've sort of proven beyond any reasonable doubt that in a scenario like this... It wouldn't.

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6 minutes ago, The Recherche said:

In other words, I believe people are equating reality to fiction far too much. If someone were to nearly end the world by stealing all major country's nuclear launch codes and falsifying launch threats (regardless of motive), for example, then yes; severe punishments would be in order... but this cannot be compared to Starlight's actions. My Little Pony is a fictional series aiming to teach children lessons about friendship, so drama and exaggeration are inevitable.

I agree with this section. 

Besides, it bothers me when people treat a fantasy world that has its own rules and workings of manually changing the weather like it's supposed to follow the way our world works. Different worlds have different rules and processes.

Edited by Will Guide

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11 minutes ago, Jedishy said:

Because the victim is who I care about. I care about the justice for those hurt not a snake oil selling criminal pretending to be "good now"

 

See, this brings up some interesting philosophical questions.

 

Because none of Starlight's victims wanted her to be punished in the way you're describing. So who's the justice for? If punishment doesn't work as a deterrent, nor does it bring peace of mind or closure to those hurt, then what's the point?

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Just now, gingerninja666 said:

 

See, this brings up some interesting philosophical questions.

 

Because none of Starlight's victims wanted her to be punished in the way you're describing. So who's the justice for? If punishment doesn't work as a deterrent, nor does it bring peace of mind or closure to those hurt, then what's the point?

Bingo, jackpot, right on the money.

Exactly my point. You can produce no victims that want what you are advocating, so, therefore, you can't say that what you stand for is "for the victims", because it's blatantly going against what the victims want. It would be counterproductive. It would just show other ponies that even when you try to make things right, you still get arbitrary punishments.

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I don't care what your perfect legal system and thirty years of fake experience have to say. If I met such a person I'd try my very damn best to deal with them. And then Bronies would shed big crocodile tears cause evil Goat Hero beat the living rainbows out of some nasty spell-happy mare. Your tragic past woobie routine only works if there is none outside of the Equestrian political sphere who's strong enough to subdue them with brute force in an act of self-defense. And if that's true then your princessdom is bucked anyway and you should just move to Tambelon. I heard they have a huge and beautiful wall that keeps powerful unicorns with tragic pasts away.

 

TL; DR: Get your latest anti-mage weaponry at your local shopkeeper. Don't spread the word.

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5 minutes ago, Key Sharkz said:

At the time of, everyone will be emotional. After the fact, people begin to be capable of more logical thinking and start to consider the reality they find themselves in.

17 minutes ago, Jedishy said:

Fair point. But I do not think oh I did nice things so whatever is good enough. 

5 minutes ago, Key Sharkz said:

She took their cutie marks, but torture would imply she subjected them to insane inhumane treatment... They were locked in a house. It wasn't THAT extreme.

They were not just locked in the house. They were subject to nonstop brainwashing material and fed once a day crappy food. That is brainwashing/torture 101. In fact is more effective at breaking people then actually hurting them. Its so effective that people where willing to  give up a massive part of themselves and stay that way rather than risk going in there again. I would say what she is doing is similar to gay conversion therapy and that has proven to be mentally damaging. 

7 minutes ago, Key Sharkz said:

In the case of rape or murder you CAN'T make the affected parties whole because the damage to them is life-long or forever. It's A COMPLETELY different animal.

Mental damage is also potentially life long. You have no idea how impacted that town is by her brainwashing. So maybe I am assuming too much but I do not take the word of brainwashed individuals as gospel as they can't be trusted to be mentally sound and not suffering from some sort of preprogrammed delusion or rose-colored glasses. Often the abused go back to their abuser because they remember the good times and think this time it will be different. Which is exactly what is empowered but the oh they are nice now mentality. 

 

10 minutes ago, Key Sharkz said:

Again, the crux of your argument relies on producing victims that are saying they want punishment for her, and you can not do that. The reality is that YOU want punishment, but the affected did not.

No it does not rely on that. Often battered women do not want to see their abuser taken to jail. Often they forgive afterwards only to be abused again. So no it only requires damages and we have those. 

11 minutes ago, Key Sharkz said:

Stop using the shield of "the victims" to push your own wishes and just admit that you personally want punishment because you have convinced yourself that punishment will somehow make the situation better when we've sort of proven beyond any reasonable doubt that in a scenario like this... It wouldn't.

We have not proven anything. We do not know if she would have rehabbed sooner with punishment. We do not know who or what she damaged while on the run. Only that she broke at some point and came crawling back. As I said victims of abuse often try to forgive their abuser and even take them back. That does not make it wise or safe to leave them on the streets to abuse again. Further, it does not atone for what they did to people or the laws they broke. 

23 minutes ago, TBD said:

Overall, it's ridiculous to take it literal anyways just because our world isn't all that forgiving, while a fictional world is.  It's cartoon logic. 

 

Its not ridiculous. Its fun and informative. Key is teaching me a lot about my own arguments and how to refine them or where they are lacking via her opposing viewpoint and this debate is a great foil for it. 

8 minutes ago, gingerninja666 said:

Because none of Starlight's victims wanted her to be punished in the way you're describing. So who's the justice for? If punishment doesn't work as a deterrent, nor does it bring peace of mind or closure to those hurt, then what's the point?

I have said it repeatedly in this post but victims of abuse often try to rationalize why they are at fault for it and forgive. Their forgiveness is not in and of itself an out for the criminal. Further, we do not know its not a deterrent. We have no idea who else might have pulled similar things except for fear of the law. Oh you can point out a few big baddies in the Equestrian universe but that just shows that some people are always willing to break the law. Further breaking the laws of the state are pretty much a reason in and of themselves to punish someone. You wronged the state by breaking its laws and creating disorder. You locked up a state official against her will. Things like that cant go unanswered for. Now if they had IDK claimed that she was to be put on work release to Twilight as part of her punishment/rehab well you could argue that this is better then wasted prison time. But that was not the framing of it. Though I suppose that is a bit much to ask for from a kids show 

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Just now, Jedishy said:

No it does not rely on that. Often battered women do not want to see their abuser taken to jail. Often they forgive afterwards only to be abused again. So no it only requires damages and we have those. 

2

I'm sorry, but you're grabbing at straws here.

In this case, these people are not battered. They also are shown to be doing just fine. You're making a comparison that simply isn't connecting.

2 minutes ago, Jedishy said:

Fair point. But I do not think oh I did nice things so whatever is good enough. 

You're oversimplying my point.

2 minutes ago, Jedishy said:

They were not just locked in the house. They were subject to nonstop brainwashing material and fed once a day crappy food. That is brainwashing/torture 101. In fact is more effective at breaking people then actually hurting them. Its so effective that people where willing to  give up a massive part of themselves and stay that way rather than risk going in there again. I would say what she is doing is similar to gay conversion therapy and that has proven to be mentally damaging. 

Yet, we have seen that it was not long term. We see the evidence first hand. The damage is not there. Otherwise we'd be seeing it STILL affecting the main six now, which it obviously isn't. So again, your argument rests on proving that there is damage to someone that is long term so that you can produce someone who is "wronged". In this case... You still have yet to do that.

You have to prove that someone is damaged permanently or that they are still being affected by said damage. You have to PROVE that these people saying they wish to forgive Starlight are only doing so because of psychological damage that is making them do so. You have to prove that point, which you have yet to do.

5 minutes ago, Jedishy said:

You have no idea how impacted that town is by her brainwashing. So maybe I am assuming too much but I do not take the word of brainwashed individuals as gospel as they can't be trusted to be mentally sound and not suffering from some sort of preprogrammed delusion or rose-colored glasses. Often the abused go back to their abuser because they remember the good times and think this time it will be different. Which is exactly what is empowered but the oh they are nice now mentality. 

I think we can safely say that they are over it. They have lived without here there for some time now, invited her voluntarily, and called for forgiveness. You can't dismiss all of that on the faulty argument of maybe they are somehow still suffering from some kind of delusions without proof. Sorry, for this claim to hold water, you need proof. You do not have any. Therefore we have to take it at face value. The only thing we have is that they seem to be content and they offered forgiveness to her and seem to be doing quite fine. You can suggest "possibilities" of what is going on behind closed doors, but I'm afraid they are just possibilities and we don't dish out punishments on "maybes", we dish them out on "definites". You can not prove a definite here, therefore there is no need for this punishment you're advocating.

8 minutes ago, Jedishy said:

We have not proven anything. We do not know if she would have rehabbed sooner with punishment. We do not know who or what she damaged while on the run. Only that she broke at some point and came crawling back. As I said victims of abuse often try to forgive their abuser and even take them back. That does not make it wise or safe to leave them on the streets to abuse again. Further, it does not atone for what they did to people or the laws they broke. 

 

We also don't dish out punishments on things we don't know about either, or build cases on things we're guessing on. The reality is... You don't know what she did on the run either. You also don't have any evidence that the victims are under some kind of Stockholm syndrome to be convinced to forgive their abuser. You can not dismiss their forgiveness as non-genuine unless you can provide evidence that it is. You lack that.

As far as we can tell the people who were "hurt" seem fine with how things turned out and you can't prove otherwise. Rendering punishment arbitrary.

 

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13 minutes ago, Jedishy said:

I have said it repeatedly in this post but victims of abuse often try to rationalize why they are at fault for it and forgive. Their forgiveness is not in and of itself an out for the criminal. Further, we do not know its not a deterrent. We have no idea who else might have pulled similar things except for fear of the law. Oh you can point out a few big baddies in the Equestrian universe but that just shows that some people are always willing to break the law. Further breaking the laws of the state are pretty much a reason in and of themselves to punish someone. You wronged the state by breaking its laws and creating disorder. You locked up a state official against her will. Things like that cant go unanswered for. Now if they had IDK claimed that she was to be put on work release to Twilight as part of her punishment/rehab well you could argue that this is better then wasted prison time. But that was not the framing of it. Though I suppose that is a bit much to ask for from a kids show 

You mention laws of the state, but Twi and the Princesses kinda ARE the state. What happens in response to crimes is their choice, and Twilight believed that Star would be better served turning good than being imprisoned. It's not really all that different from what happens to other villains. They get imprisoned for a while, sure, but then after getting out they got right back to committing crimes but are then given a redemption instead of going back to prison. Even though they have crimes to pay for post leaving prison in many cases.

I just don't think terms like "work release" were ever going to be used in a show like this. It's just not how the cast would talk to each other.

But I thought the spirit of that was still there. AJ did say "We can't just let her go on her way, can we?" implying that a reason she's living with Twilight is to keep her close.

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24 minutes ago, Jedishy said:

Its not ridiculous. Its fun and informative. Key is teaching me a lot about my own arguments and how to refine them or where they are lacking via her opposing viewpoint and this debate is a great foil for it. 

Yeah I guess you got a point there. :adorkable: I Just don't understand how's  starlight still getting the hate after 3 seasons. You'd think people should bypass that by now after seeing her development. Despite of her not getting punish. I mean, I’d understand if the reason why people hate her for being blend or just a terrible character overall.. but hating her just because she’s not getting punished, while ignoring her other traits, seems a bit blind sided.

Edited by TBD

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14 minutes ago, Key Sharkz said:

The damage is not there. Otherwise we'd be seeing it STILL affecting the main six now, which it obviously isn't.

They tricked their way out of the situation. They would be kept there until they snapped and gave in. That was the expressed intent. 

 

14 minutes ago, Key Sharkz said:

In this case, these people are not battered. They also are shown to be doing just fine. You're making a comparison that simply isn't connecting.

27 minutes ago, Jedishy said:

No they were just brainwashed via isolation, minimal food, and propaganda nonstop if they tried to leave. That is mental abuse 101. Its torture 101. 

Now you are right that I can't be 100% that it happened. What I am saying is that I would not take their word on it 100% either. I have seen too many abuse victims take people back to fall for that. Been there working in as a volunteer in an abuse victims advocacy center in HS. So I am far less forgiving of tactics I have seen IRL do massive damage. 

14 minutes ago, Key Sharkz said:

As far as we can tell the people who were "hurt" seem fine with how things turned out and you can't prove otherwise. Rendering punishment arbitrary.

 

 

No it would not. Its neither random or via my preference over that of the law. In fact we see that the law generally says you enslave and harm ponies you go to lock up. So we could argue that Twilights decision was arbitrary or we could argue that its was a decision to change the law to what amounts to work release/supervised community service and that is proven more effective. Now if THAT is what you are arguing then I could agree maybe that is the better method. I would be a whole lot more stringent about it and it would last a LOT longer for her fleeing justice but if I have caught your true intention here that might indeed be a better way but was not strict enough and did not involve enough working to improve the lives of those she harmed more directly for my taste. 

 

11 minutes ago, gingerninja666 said:

You mention laws of the state, but Twi and the Princesses kinda ARE the state. What happens in response to crimes is their choice, and Twilight believed that Star would be better served turning good than being imprisoned

This is a good point and one that I did not think of. Its sort of easy to think of Luna/Celestia as THE state when Twi is not in her own kingdom as expressly as Cadence. 

11 minutes ago, gingerninja666 said:

But I thought the spirit of that was still there. AJ did say "We can't just let her go on her way, can we?" implying that a reason she's living with Twilight is to keep her close.

Hmm I missed that but if that's the case then there is more wisdom to what happened than I caught onto. 

 

10 minutes ago, TBD said:

Yeah I guess you got a point there. :adorkable: I Just don't understand how's  starlight still getting the hate after 3 seasons. You'd think people should bypass that by now after seeing her development. Despite of her not getting punish. 

Oh, I dont hate her per say. I hate that more clear atonement was not given. It's just that trust former criminals about how sorry they are as much as I'd trust Casey Anthony to babysit. So I would have loved to see more direct work in her making things right to those they hurt. But I the Trixie/Starlight dynamic does grow on me the more I view those episodes. 

I also want to thank @Key Sharkz and @gingerninja666 as not only are they helping refine some important views for me but they are showing me things about a character that I ignored for want of her to face justice. 

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Just now, Jedishy said:

They tricked their way out of the situation. They would be kept there until they snapped and gave in. That was the expressed intent. 

 

Again my entire point: the main six are not being affected by it anymore, are they? They have been made whole and we can CLEARLY see they are not mentally damaged from it. So we can clearly accept their forgiveness of Starlight as genuine.

Just now, Jedishy said:

No they were just brainwashed via isolation, minimal food, and propaganda nonstop if they tried to leave. That is mental abuse 101. Its torture 101. 

Now you are right that I can't be 100% that it happened. What I am saying is that I would not take their word on it 100% either. I have seen too many abuse victims take people back to fall for that. Been there working in as a volunteer in an abuse victims advocacy center in HS. So I am far less forgiving of tactics I have seen IRL do massive damage. 

We only dish out punishments when we can confirm something, not when we have a strong hunch. In this case, you can't prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, you can only present a possibility.

Again: the end result seems relatively positive, so what difference does it make now? Punishment would basically be trying to address a "maybe" negative that we can not even prove exists.

2 minutes ago, Jedishy said:

No it would not. Its neither random or via my preference over that of the law. In fact we see that the law generally says you enslave and harm ponies you go to lock up. So we could argue that Twilights decision was arbitrary or we could argue that its was a decision to change the law to what amounts to work release/supervised community service and that is proven more effective. Now if THAT is what you are arguing then I could agree maybe that is the better method. I would be a whole lot more stringent about it and it would last a LOT longer for her fleeing justice but if I have caught your true intention here that might indeed be a better way but was not strict enough and did not involve enough working to improve the lives of those she harmed more directly for my taste. 

Twilight chose to focus on rehabilitating Starlight without punishing her because she felt that would be more effective. The end result kind of shows she was right too. Starlight ended up even saving Equestria.

Also you just said "for my taste" that's pretty telling.

 

The reality is: you can not prove that the state/ruling body wanted this punishment, you can not prove that the victims wanted it either. In other words... YOU are the one who wants it, but you can not prove it would help anyone but your own desire to feel vindicated.

Ifs, and maybes, a case does not make.

4 minutes ago, Jedishy said:

Oh, I dont hate her per say. I hate that more clear atonement was not given. It's just that trust former criminals about how sorry they are as much as I'd trust Casey Anthony to babysit. So I would have loved to see more direct work in her making things right to those they hurt. But I the Trixie/Starlight dynamic does grow on me the more I view those episodes. 

Maybe you need to rethink your idea of atonement?

 

Anyway, it's been fun debating, but unless you can provide any kind of concrete evidence to the points above, then I think there's not much more to debate because essentially you're only presenting "possibles".

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2 minutes ago, Jedishy said:

 

 

Oh, I dont hate her per say. I hate that more clear atonement was not given. It's just that trust former criminals about how sorry they are as much as I'd trust Casey Anthony to babysit. So I would have loved to see more direct work in her making things right to those they hurt. But I the Trixie/Starlight dynamic does grow on me the more I view those episodes. 

I also want to thank @Key Sharkz and @gingerninja666 as not only are they helping refine some important views for me but they are showing me things about a character that I ignored for want of her to face justice. 

I do agree I mean we also have Tempest shadow who literally terrorized people and let alone close to sending Capper and Captain Celeano and her crew to their death. Attempted murder. And yet she is allowed to go Scott free. So I guess starlight isn’t half as bad as Tempest. While I like tempest, it bothers me a bit for her to go Scott free just because she got betrayed and have no choice but to join side.

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6 minutes ago, Key Sharkz said:

Again my entire point: the main six are not being affected by it anymore, are they? They have been made whole and we can CLEARLY see they are not mentally damaged from it. So we can clearly accept their forgiveness of Starlight as genuine.

I am sorry for using a legal term and not defining it properly. So no, they were not made whole. Nor was the town. If I rob you the only way to make you whole is pay back the debt of value for what I stole. That is making you whole. It does not matter that you replaced the item or not. That is my point. She did not do anything to directly repay the damage done to those she actually wronged. 

8 minutes ago, Key Sharkz said:

Also you just said "for my taste" that's pretty telling.

 

Yea I believe if you hurt someone that doing charity work 3 towns over is not repaying the debate you generated via the damage you did to them. I do not believe general good work washes away direct damage. Others might feel differently. 

10 minutes ago, Key Sharkz said:

The reality is: you can not prove that the state/ruling body wanted this punishment, you can not prove that the victims wanted it either. In other words... YOU are the one who wants it, but you can not prove it would help anyone but your own desire to feel vindicated.

Ifs, and maybes, a case does not make.

Nor can you prove what the supreme state IE the Sisters wanted or did not want. Merely what they let Twilight do. So we are at an impass there and entirely working with hypotheticals. But my view is Twilight was the wrong person to make the call. A. she was a judge that was wronged and they should never rule on their own case. and B. Twilight connected over the inability to make friends leading to a bad bias. 

12 minutes ago, Key Sharkz said:

Maybe you need to rethink your idea of atonement?

 

No, I really do not. I think if a person is wronged then THEY are who you have to pay. In her case, she wronged the state by breaking the law and attacking a servant of the state and she wronged a town. She might have repaid the state but not the town nor from what I can see the mane 6 directly outside of Twilight. But maybe you can shed light on that last bit as you seem to know her story a bit better than me. 

14 minutes ago, TBD said:

hile I like tempest, it bothers me a bit for her to go Scott free just because she got betrayed and have no choice but to join side.

I will quote Tyrian Lannister here. " The choice may be between slavery and death but there is always a choice. "

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Until she actually shows that she's learnt something instead of repeating her old behavior, I'm going to continue to hate her.

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Like all characters, Starlight has had her ups and downs. Did she royally screw up? Yes. But, what I find important is the fact that she learnt from her mistakes and was willing to improve herself. Whether it was rushed or not is up to you, but she managed to open herself up and has willingly offered redemption to many others, on account for her own experiences and the misjudgment that she could not do the same. I don't really see her as an issue, but more so a pony who has different struggles and perspectives on friendship.

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I like Starlight, especialy paired with Trixie, because they represent more realistic characters than the Mane 6. The Mane 6 are archetypes. It's easy to relate to some aspect of Twilight, or some aspect of Rainbow Dash. But for all of the the Mane 6, none of their flaws are insurmountable. This makes them classical hero characters. However, real people often do have insurmountable flaws, and don't possess clear direction. The Mane 6 are a means for the writers to tell stories of success and triumph. Starlight and Trixie are a great foil to the Mane 6 archetypes. It's more difficult to relate to these two specifically than the Mane 6; that is, neither of them has an 'element of harmony' that the viewer can prefer. But it is easier to relate to these two generally. The show has room to portray them as flawed, mediocre, anti-social, even morally ambivalent characters: more like ordinary human beings. Because of this, I found myself rooting for Starlight (and Trixie!) even when they are misbehaving.

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On 4/11/2019 at 11:58 PM, Zestanor said:

I like Starlight, especialy paired with Trixie, because they represent more realistic characters than the Mane 6. The Mane 6 are archetypes. It's easy to relate to some aspect of Twilight, or some aspect of Rainbow Dash. But for all of the the Mane 6, none of their flaws are insurmountable. This makes them classical hero characters. However, real people often do have insurmountable flaws, and don't possess clear direction. The Mane 6 are a means for the writers to tell stories of success and triumph. Starlight and Trixie are a great foil to the Mane 6 archetypes. It's more difficult to relate to these two specifically than the Mane 6; that is, neither of them has an 'element of harmony' that the viewer can prefer. But it is easier to relate to these two generally. The show has room to portray them as flawed, mediocre, anti-social, even morally ambivalent characters: more like ordinary human beings. Because of this, I found myself rooting for Starlight (and Trixie!) even when they are misbehaving.

I agree, both Starlight and Trixie have more on their plates to deal with, past issues, insecurities and other bad habits they are trying to curb. I find them both enjoyable and I love that Trixie was the first friend outside of the Mane 6 Starlight made as they bonded over their past and their flaws (Maud and Starlight is equally fun).

Starlight is having to learn what the Mane 6 has taken for granted for a long time, how friendship works, being in general society and such. I've had those issues as well, though not to the whole enslave a village or destroy the world level (not as of yet). There will always be those who hate a character for some reason or another. I've read the posts here and to be honest, those who hate her do so for personal reasons. The whole debate on Imprisonment vs Rehabilitation was rather facinating and as someone in the US, I can agree that Rehabilitation would be the better course as the revolving door system of prison we have just ain't cutting it. Starlight is where she needs to be, with friends, those who are supporting her new path and a place for her to grow. I like her alot and hope to see more of her in the future. Heck, I might try my hand at doing some starlight fanfiction. 

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Sunset Shimmer doesn't deserve any hate either!

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I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, but I'd like to summarize a couple things.

1) What Starlight was doing to that village, and what she did to the Mane 6 was disturbing. That wasn't a 'oops mistake', that was a cold, calculated and deliberate scheme to enslave other ponies. By removing their individual identity, she made them a compliant collective. This horrible crime is also known as Marxism. Maoist China and Stalinist Russia murdered millions and millions of 'political enemies of the state'. Basically, people who resisted the collective were brainwashed, tortured and murdered.  Starlight's madness was a direct correlation to what has happened in our own world, and it was NOT trivial. To this day people around the world are still at battle with collective political regimes, people are still dying at their hands. Their propaganda is very similar to what is shown in the episode. Tempest has good advice, 'open your eyes'. Propaganda and brain washing is real, and it leads to tremendous suffering and death for the most superfluous of reasons.

2) Starlight did meet justice - Twilight Sparkle. Twilight totally demoralized her. Since it is a cartoon, it was handled in a FiM way, and it was beautiful. Starlight's punishment was reconciling her past and making genuine friends (both of which caused her to suffer A LOT). So she was most certainly held accountable by Twilight. Starlight reformed, acknowledges her mistakes, and most importantly, embraces ponies as individuals. Her worldview, not just her attitude, has changed. That is the best we could hope for in a reformation.

3) Starlight's power, intelligence and charm commands respect. It is not unreasonable to fear her. But she has become integral to all ponies, especially her friends, and has made great efforts to become more and more friendly and kind. Even Princess Luna has endorsed Starlight's reform, and I think that scene alone has helped Starlight very profoundly - that her life is better off, even though she might not be getting everything she wants (let's be honest, she does love power).

4) Reforms like this give us hope. She's an important character of the show and has given FiM a spiritual dimension that few if any other cartoons could match.

Edited by Mirage
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