Ways Father Knows Beast coulda been better (even without Spike's origins)

[FlareGun45 2,221]

I'm sure we understand the reason why Father Knows Beast came to be and the meaning behind it, and to be honest, Spike not meeting his true parents or knowing his origins isn't so bad, but that's not the reason why I thought the episode was terrible. There coulda been ways to make this episode Spike's best episode even without the origin story - but basically it was written in nearly the worst possible way. The only thing that saved this episode for me is Spike's relationship with Smolder. But here are other ways this episode coulda been better:

1. Sludge didn't need to be a complete butthead. We knew from the beginning that he wasn't Spike's dad and that he was gonna take advantage of Spike, so we were pretty much rooting for the truth since he first said he was Spike's dad. What coulda happened was a dragon heard all about Spike from Dragon Lord Ember and considered him an inspiration - like a dragon that's a bit like Gabby, different from his species. He coulda pretended to be Spike's dad to get closer to him, and have a place where he felt he belonged, and that would be something Spike could highly relate to once the truth gets revealed in the end. But he'd still play the supposed "father-figure" for Spike, and would still possibly be considered an anti-hero a bit, and causing a conflict between Spike and Twilight much like Sludge did, but it would resolve by the dragon explaining his true intentions in Ponyville.

2. Spike coulda been closer to the Sparkle family BEFORE Sparkle's Seven - like have a brotherly bond with Shining Armor since even Canterlot Wedding, and woulda been along on the family vacation in Once Upon a Zeppelin instead of just looking after things for Twilight (cause that just seemed like an excuse to write him outta the episode), and especially be as equally excited for hearing the news about Flurry Heart as Twilight. It woulda been more understandable for Spike to be happy with his "pony family" if he actually spent time with them all the time - then we wouldn't even care about Spike meeting his actual relatives, cause we understand how happy he is with the Sparkle family! I hold more of a grudge on the show for Spike not being part of Sparkle family activities till the last second, than the show not revealing his origins. If I wrote this episode, I woulda easily replaced the Mane 5 with the Sparkle family. The Mane 5 is more of a "metaphorical family" like how Applejack feels about her friends, while Twilight and the Sparkles are his adopted family, so it woulda been better having the Sparkles in this episode instead of the Mane 5. Or maybe both, better yet!

3. Here's the worst part of Father Knows Beast: after everything Sludge did to Spike, HE GOT AWAY WITH IT! He treated Spike like he was nothing, then he tells him the harsh truth, and even steals his pillow before flying out. This just adds insult to injury - and the only ones that were there to cheer him up were Smolder and Twilight, and Spike just felt better and accepted his pony family just like that. I'm sure he was quite relieved for Sludge to not be his dad, but he shouldn've gotten away with it. Here's what I woulda did: after making up with Twilight, Twilight gathers ALL of Spike's friends together to show how much they appreciate him, while at the same time, punishing Sludge severely! Then it would feel justice has been served, and it turns out Spike has a HUGE family - and not just one alicorn pony who uses him as monster bait a few episodes later.

tl;dr: 

1. Sludge coulda been a nice dragon that just wanted a son like Spike, who coulda been competition to Twilight

2. Spike shoulda been closer to the Sparkle family since the beginning instead of Sparkle's Seven

3. Sludge shoulda been severely punished by Spike's friends instead of getting away with it

So how do you think this episode coulda been better? Do you agree with my alternatives? Or didja like the episode how it was?

Edited September 8, 2019 by FlareGun45

[Misty Shadow 7,084]

I agree with your grievances, it's easier for me to empathize with your frustrations and look back on this episode in a more negative light with what we know now. But yeah, even without Spike's origins, I can definitely agree that Sludge just being a standalone a-hole character who doesn't even get his comeuppance in the end is frustrating to look back on. 

 

[Sepul-Coloratura 756]

I actually liked the episode, except for Sludge getting away like you mentioned. He should have been at least treated like Trixie's first episode or Svengallop or bump his head to the tree like Garble because he is the worst of all non-world ending villains.

Many people disliked this episode for the context outside of the episode, but I think it's bit of an unfair judgement.

[Ittoni 536]

I honestly think it was ok. A little too slow but I don't have problem with the lesson or Sludge being manipulative. And me in particular would have wanted to Sludge to be his actual dad and be saying the truth about his origin and such but still being a total!... booty... 

Why? you must be asking. Because personally I identify with Spike in this one. I don't have that much of an a** dad but he's still an a**, the thing is that he neither goes away nor does he wants to get better. He's just as manipulative and destructive of my own well being and our family as well as trying to pretend to be a dad out of guilt of his own actions. Well my mother too to be fair but she's more on the Spoiled Rich territory.

It was ok that he didn't got any punishment in the end, not because it was the right thing or because it would have been satisfying but because sometimes, more than it should be, it's just what happens, and you have to swallow it and be content with at least having other people that do care. Spike realizing that his family is not a blood related one is huge! Is a very important lesson!

We got what we got despite that it would have been much better to have him meet his real father and still finding him disappointing but maybe it was too "dark" for the show to show a bad dad or something. Y know, because kids won't ever encounter that in their own lives, how could your dad be bad?

[FlareGun45 2,221]

14 hours ago, Ittoni said:

I honestly think it was ok. A little too slow but I don't have problem with the lesson or Sludge being manipulative. And me in particular would have wanted to Sludge to be his actual dad and be saying the truth about his origin and such but still being a total!... booty... 

Why? you must be asking. Because personally I identify with Spike in this one. I don't have that much of an a** dad but he's still an a**, the thing is that he neither goes away nor does he wants to get better. He's just as manipulative and destructive of my own well being and our family as well as trying to pretend to be a dad out of guilt of his own actions. Well my mother too to be fair but she's more on the Spoiled Rich territory.

It was ok that he didn't got any punishment in the end, not because it was the right thing or because it would have been satisfying but because sometimes, more than it should be, it's just what happens, and you have to swallow it and be content with at least having other people that do care. Spike realizing that his family is not a blood related one is huge! Is a very important lesson!

We got what we got despite that it would have been much better to have him meet his real father and still finding him disappointing but maybe it was too "dark" for the show to show a bad dad or something. Y know, because kids won't ever encounter that in their own lives, how could your dad be bad?

Alright. What about what I said about the Sparkle family being more involved in Spike's life?

[Ittoni 536]

1 hour ago, FlareGun45 said:

Alright. What about what I said about the Sparkle family being more involved in Spike's life?

i think we all share the same sentiment. It shows in the show how the writers didn't had much love for spike overall (i mean, he's not even human in eqg, he's a dog, and he's always the butt of the jokes in the show). We were told that he was like a little brother to twilight and somehow that she took care of him because celestia said so but we only see the assistant/secretary part and never the family side of them until the very last seasons and it was very strange since once we got to the false dad issue it the emotional charge of what could have been wasn't there. 

[Kadeda 178]

I don't really have a problem with the episode. Is it really that big of a deal?

[FlareGun45 2,221]

7 hours ago, Kadeda said:

I don't really have a problem with the episode. Is it really that big of a deal?

If it's a story about a story of someone taking advantage of a character by pretending to be his dad and treats him like a servant without punishment, and the kid who already barely fits in with his adopted family and gets the servant role alot as it is and suffered the consequences of being screwed over, then yeah, it kinda is a big deal.

[Thrond 3,257]

On 9/8/2019 at 5:15 PM, FlareGun45 said:

1. Sludge didn't need to be a complete butthead. We knew from the beginning that he wasn't Spike's dad and that he was gonna take advantage of Spike, so we were pretty much rooting for the truth since he first said he was Spike's dad. What coulda happened was a dragon heard all about Spike from Dragon Lord Ember and considered him an inspiration - like a dragon that's a bit like Gabby, different from his species. He coulda pretended to be Spike's dad to get closer to him, and have a place where he felt he belonged, and that would be something Spike could highly relate to once the truth gets revealed in the end. But he'd still play the supposed "father-figure" for Spike, and would still possibly be considered an anti-hero a bit, and causing a conflict between Spike and Twilight much like Sludge did, but it would resolve by the dragon explaining his true intentions in Ponyville.

A big part of why I liked this episode is because it's relatively dark. Sludge did need to be a complete butthead, because otherwise it wouldn't be entirely clear just how severe this absence in Spike's life is. I gather you don't want Spike to be taken advantage of, but I think his longing for a dragon parent is all the more powerful when it makes him so easy to manipulate. It shows how desperate he is, so it's all the better when he gets real help from Smolder. 

On 9/8/2019 at 5:15 PM, FlareGun45 said:

2. Spike coulda been closer to the Sparkle family BEFORE Sparkle's Seven - like have a brotherly bond with Shining Armor since even Canterlot Wedding, and woulda been along on the family vacation in Once Upon a Zeppelin instead of just looking after things for Twilight (cause that just seemed like an excuse to write him outta the episode), and especially be as equally excited for hearing the news about Flurry Heart as Twilight. It woulda been more understandable for Spike to be happy with his "pony family" if he actually spent time with them all the time - then we wouldn't even care about Spike meeting his actual relatives, cause we understand how happy he is with the Sparkle family! I hold more of a grudge on the show for Spike not being part of Sparkle family activities till the last second, than the show not revealing his origins. If I wrote this episode, I woulda easily replaced the Mane 5 with the Sparkle family. The Mane 5 is more of a "metaphorical family" like how Applejack feels about her friends, while Twilight and the Sparkles are his adopted family, so it woulda been better having the Sparkles in this episode instead of the Mane 5. Or maybe both, better yet!

Fair enough, which is why I really like how they did that in "Sparkle's Seven." It kinda seems like the show doesn't quite know what Spike's relationship with the mane six will be. I actually wish he had spent more time with them onscreen, honestly. I'm not sure siblings and nieces and whatever are that important, because this is specifically about parental figures, but I'm not a huge fan of Twilight being a parental figure for Spike, so I do wish he was more integrated with the family. And I really do believe that the show has done a good job establishing how close his relationship with Twilight is - I'm not one of the people who thinks it's uncaring or abusive - but there are still a lot of details which the show never clarified. 

On 9/8/2019 at 5:15 PM, FlareGun45 said:

3. Here's the worst part of Father Knows Beast: after everything Sludge did to Spike, HE GOT AWAY WITH IT! He treated Spike like he was nothing, then he tells him the harsh truth, and even steals his pillow before flying out. This just adds insult to injury - and the only ones that were there to cheer him up were Smolder and Twilight, and Spike just felt better and accepted his pony family just like that. I'm sure he was quite relieved for Sludge to not be his dad, but he shouldn've gotten away with it. Here's what I woulda did: after making up with Twilight, Twilight gathers ALL of Spike's friends together to show how much they appreciate him, while at the same time, punishing Sludge severely! Then it would feel justice has been served, and it turns out Spike has a HUGE family - and not just one alicorn pony who uses him as monster bait a few episodes later.

This story isn't really about Sludge. It doesn't really matter what happens to him, as long as he's gone, and as long as Twilight recognizes the void in Spike's life. I like this episode, but my main issue with it is that I'm not completely sure Twilight does recognize that, even though Smolder is there to help him. And good lord, the monster bait thing was clearly their best option at the time. I would be really surprised if he harbors any ill feelings over that, because clearly there were bigger things to worry about. 

[Thrond 3,257]

On 9/8/2019 at 5:15 PM, FlareGun45 said:

Do you agree with my alternatives? Or didja like the episode how it was?

I liked this episode, and a big part of why I liked it is because it's sad. I think it would have been improved a lot if Twilight weren't implied to be a parental figure for Spike, and I think this should have dug deeper into Spike's motivations. I think he turns on Twilight too quickly, and I kinda wish he had some sense that something was wrong with Sludge. More than anything else, though, I just wish that Twilight was able to find some way for Spike to get the things she can't give him. It needed a final scene where Smolder talks to Twilight about Spike. I just want her to know that Spike can get what he needs. 

[FlareGun45 2,221]

8 hours ago, AlexanderThrond said:

I liked this episode, and a big part of why I liked it is because it's sad. I think it would have been improved a lot if Twilight weren't implied to be a parental figure for Spike, and I think this should have dug deeper into Spike's motivations. I think he turns on Twilight too quickly, and I kinda wish he had some sense that something was wrong with Sludge. More than anything else, though, I just wish that Twilight was able to find some way for Spike to get the things she can't give him. It needed a final scene where Smolder talks to Twilight about Spike. I just want her to know that Spike can get what he needs. 

I don't think he turned on Twilight THAT quick! In all things considered, she had it coming for a long time. She wasn't always the best to him - though no one's the best to anyone, but there really needed to be some tension and conflict between Twilight and Spike. Until this episode, he seemed highly depended of her, and if it's this easy for Spike to find a replacement for Twilight, then obviously he feels like something's missing in his life! It just seems like he's content cause he has no other alternative. Sludge brought out a new side of him, one I wanted to see again!

Though now that the show's over, the only hope of seeing that again is the comics, or more specials if we're lucky! If it was this easy for Spike to replace Twilight, just imagine if the one who found his egg showed up, they'd be REAL competition - like Twilight really meeting her match in terms of who cares for Spike's well-being! Or worse: his real relatives!  Though the one who found his egg is more likely.

[Thrond 3,257]

2 hours ago, FlareGun45 said:

I don't think he turned on Twilight THAT quick! In all things considered, she had it coming for a long time. She wasn't always the best to him - though no one's the best to anyone, but there really needed to be some tension and conflict between Twilight and Spike.

I think some people severely exaggerate the weirder parts of Twilight's relationship with Spike. It seems fairly healthy to me, considering that they live in a cartoon. 

3 hours ago, FlareGun45 said:

Until this episode, he seemed highly depended of her, and if it's this easy for Spike to find a replacement for Twilight, then obviously he feels like something's missing in his life! It just seems like he's content cause he has no other alternative. Sludge brought out a new side of him, one I wanted to see again!

I think what he's missing - aside from a father figure, of course - is a dragon who can help him understand his body and heritage, especially since he's entering adolescence. Remember, earlier that season Twilight didn't even recognize the Molt. I'm not sure he's ever going to perfectly get what he wants, but at least he lives pretty well as is, and at least Smolder's now there to tell him what's what. 

3 hours ago, FlareGun45 said:

If it was this easy for Spike to replace Twilight, just imagine if the one who found his egg showed up, they'd be REAL competition - like Twilight really meeting her match in terms of who cares for Spike's well-being! Or worse: his real relatives!  Though the one who found his egg is more likely.

I think that would just wind up kinda like the season 9 Scootaloo episode. 

[FlareGun45 2,221]

48 minutes ago, AlexanderThrond said:

 I think that would just wind up kinda like the season 9 Scootaloo episode. 

I was thinking more of a "second parental figure" kinda way. Like Twilight has her way of raising Spike, and then the other parent (let's say Scorpan) would have a different point of view of how Spike should be raised to be.

Twilight raises Spike in the ways of friendship and being there for others. While Scorpan lectures Spike on how he should be relying on himself more, his own potential and destiny, instead of being a "servant-boy to some princess". Of course Spike isn't, but this would be his point of view. It's basically Spike's "meta episode", his "Fame and Misfortune". He coulda really used a meta episode (one that isn't Power Ponies, cause that episode basically made his problem worse). What makes this different from Sludge is that Scorpan would actually be Twilight's match, instead of some lowlife thinking mostly of himself. This would give Spike a very hard decision on who to listen to. But of course in the end, the only one he should listen to is himself and what HE believes!

I don't think we ever had an episode like this! It's too late for an "episode" like that now. But there's still the comics, and the slightest chance of a special by Boulder Media! More likely the former. If the comics ended up giving Cosmos a character, I'm sure they'd do the same for Scorpan - but that's beside the point.

[Thrond 3,257]

4 minutes ago, FlareGun45 said:

(let's say Scorpan)

Why would it be Scorpan? 

6 minutes ago, FlareGun45 said:

While Scorpan lectures Spike on how he should be relying on himself more, his own potential and destiny, instead of being a "servant-boy to some princess". Of course Spike isn't, but this would be his point of view.

Is that your point of view? I think I finally understand what you mean by Spike's "destiny" if that's the case. 

7 minutes ago, FlareGun45 said:

It's basically Spike's "meta episode", his "Fame and Misfortune". 

You say that like it's a good thing. 

7 minutes ago, FlareGun45 said:

This would give Spike a very hard decision on who to listen to. But of course in the end, the only one he should listen to is himself and what HE believes!

 I don't think we ever had an episode like this! It's too late for an "episode" like that now. But there's still the comics, and the slightest chance of a special by Boulder Media! More likely the former. If the comics ended up giving Cosmos a character, I'm sure they'd do the same for Scorpan - but that's beside the point.

I don't think we need a new parental figure to explore these subjects, but you do have a good point. This show hasn't done a good job of showing Spike expanding his own horizons, especially when you ignore all of the weird adventure and diplomacy stuff. He doesn't have many friends his own age, he doesn't seem to have any aspirations in life, and he doesn't seem to be developing a sense of independence like the Cutie Mark Crusaders have. Especially given how Spike began going through puberty in season 8, it would have been real nice had we seen a little more of him growing up, like we got with the CMC. 

[FlareGun45 2,221]

2 minutes ago, AlexanderThrond said:

Why would it be Scorpan? 

Scorpan and Spike were close friends in G1 and were both originally slaves to Tirek (who wasn't Scorpan's brother at the time). Scorpan wanted Spike to go with the ponies so he'd have a better life. Is there any better choice on who found his egg?

3 minutes ago, AlexanderThrond said:

Is that your point of view? I think I finally understand what you mean by Spike's "destiny" if that's the case. 

I know how happy he is being Spike's assistant, and I don't blame him completely because he's always felt safe around her. I'm pretty sure a dragon living in a pony world was very difficult for him in his earlier days, and Twilight was the only one who was there to protect him. Still though, what if comes a time where they'd have to separate? He'd hafta be ready. And even if he does stay with Twilight, any job is better than the job he has now. Not to mention he's not even equal to the group of ponies he hangs with - he has better chemistry with all his friends OUTSIDE the group.

7 minutes ago, AlexanderThrond said:

Especially given how Spike began going through puberty in season 8, it would have been real nice had we seen a little more of him growing up, like we got with the CMC. 

Well, he did finally get over his crush on Rarity. So he has THAT going for him!