S09:E21 Daring Doubt (beware, spoilers inside)

[Ganondox 899]

This episode reinforces my belief that making Daring Do be a real person in the world was one of the worst decision the show ever made. That arc only has one good episode (Stranger than Fanficiton) and like the original Daring Do episode the denial of it's fictionality actively works against it's moral. I actually had high hopes when this episode, it had an interesting premise and they hinted at there being some more depth, but then they didn't actually do anything with it. Daring Do's flaws are touched on no more than any other Daring Do episode, and Caballeron really just is in it for the money. Sure, Cabelleron ends up learning to appreciate Fluttershy, but really the only reason Daring Do and Cabelleron teamed up was because they were trapped in the same predicament, not because they came to any deeper understanding of each other. They threw in this truth telling amulet, and aside from the fact the characters just wear it for no reason for the sake of plot advancement, it doesn't actually reveal anything interesting. Their one reveal was with Ahuizotl, but that made zero sense with how he was previously portrayed. Honestly it's a way better characterization than the 800 years of sun crap, but you can't just sweep that under the rug and pretend it didn't happen when you're trying to explain him because it did. The end result was needlessly reforming two characters whose loss of villainhood is actively detrimental as it effectively ends the Daring Do stories, just because the show is ending doesn't mean the in-universe stories need to end as well. At least there is no more Daring Do garbage after this. :P

[RDDash 18,866]

I can sympathize with Flutters for going on the bizarre adventure with bad guys, and then they liked her so much that they become good guys and helped her.

[ShadOBabe 18,984]

About to watch it! I'll beback in about 22 minutes! 

EEEEEEEEEEEE, I'm so excited!! 

[ShadOBabe 18,984]

Thoughts while watching:

• LOLMG, "spider cruelty" XD
• Heh, this ought to be fun... I wonder if they'll actually validate Dr. C and... someone else... or will they still be miscreants in the end? 
• Dude... top tier Clark Kent-ing... Love the beard.  And also, lol at Dash recognizing him IMMEDIATELY.
• "Fluttershy. With two T's." Pfffffffffft.... X'D
• Awwww, poor Calby... LOL, I honestly don't know if he's going to be made out to be validated in the end, but if they keep him bad, then his woe-is-me performance is on POINT. I kind of hope they stay bad. They're so hilarious about it.
• "And I - *rips off disguise* - am Dr. Caballeron!" And he is FABULOUS. Seriously, I think Calby MIGHT have the best hair of any stallion in the show. Love the salt and pepper look.
• Hmmmm... Flutterleron? Hmmmmm...  Do I dare..? 
• To be fair, that is really risky Fluttershy. If he's still a villain, you're outnumbered four to one, and you're still not exactly a combatant. On the other hand, he might be on his best behavior to make himself look good.
• "He's trying to make my friend a criminal!" Wooooooooah Rainbow, okay... chill. Like all of your conclusions are understandable, but you can't be blabbing that stuff as fact. At least use "I think" in there.
• "Needs the wings of a pegasus to retrive it" Okaaaaay, dang episode. You really have me curious about the outcome here. Devious? Or no?
• Also, "So Daring do DOESN'T kick puppies?" "That was ONE TIME! Accidentally!" Okay, Daring I believe you. But you do totally kick kittens! 

Spoiler

• Awwwww, that little filly being all in awe over Daring is adorable. XD
• YEAH IT'S AHUI'S CATS!! EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!! I wonder where Mictia is? Mictia is what I named the Tiger. I named all of them actually. 
• "I'm having the best time with you all!" Look at these eyes... I don't think I can stop myself you guys! XD

Spoiler

• "HOW ABOUT YOU BE QUIET??" Heehee, that's more like it. XD
• Awwww, Fluttershy is gonna melt some hearts! 
• Oh GOD... Spider-hornets... me WORST NIGHTMARE.
• OMG IT'S AHUIZOTL OMG SDIOFNAWOEIRAWDVNIASKLDNGAWOIRGTWI$N  IOWNERF QINHION! POMRP EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!  My boo... *dies*
• *still freaking out* *please stand by*
• *still squeeing*
• *scene change* Awwww, no, go back!! Loving his voice btw. I wonder if it's still the same actor?
• Yep, gotta save the hat
• I saw that eye-shift Calby, you sneak. Don't you dare hurt your new girlfr- I mean -FRIEND'S feelings
• *laughing* Laying it on a bit thick there Calby.
• YEAH THEY SAVED HER!! Good work boys. And good job Fluttershy, they love you. XD
• Oooooh, it's making him tell the truth! Niiiice.
• YEAH MY BIG BLUE BOI IS BACK!!! Yessss...
• Ohhhh... are they making Ahui a guardian? Hmmmm... gotta see where this is going...
• I love the goyles! Very cool!
• Heeheeheehee, Ahuizotl's evil laugh makes me whole. 
• HAHA!! Don't fight it Calby, you gotta help out. Omg I love how pouty he's being. I'm literally LOLing.
• OMG NAIL FILE AHUI!! *crying* AHAHAHAHAAAA...

Spoiler

• I love how huge Ahuizotl is, it's ridiculous. And as always, love how strong he is. "Yeah, I'm just gonna shaken this whole temple down with a couple of shoulder bumps!"
• HE IS A GUARDIAN OMG!! 8D I have some questions though... I'll get back to that...
• OMG he's crying, AWWWWWWWW MY BABY!! X'D I am laughing my @$$ off you guys. XD
• "I was stealing them to get rich" *Ahuizotl death glare activate* XDDD
• "I thought you were just being a monster" "Ugh, I get that a lot" I LOVE YOU BOO, I ALWAYS KNEW YOU WERE AMAZING!! XD
• OMG AHUIZOTL IS A - OMG I'M CRYING - AHUI'S AN AUTHOR NOW EEEEEEEEEEE!! Look at him reading to all the ponies!! MY BOO IS A HERO NOW!!  
• I have SOOOO many conflicting feeling about this, I'm gonna have to edit some headcanons, but you know what, I'm not upset. I am so okay with this! X'D

 

I'll have to comment on this some more later, but I have to go to bed soon. Just... wow... I have so many things I need to work on for my headcanons. But this is weird. If Ahuizotl was always a guardian, why did he attempt to roast the Basin with... what was it, 800 years? 800 years of unrelenting heat? And he still totally tried to kill Daring multiple times. But just because you're good doesn't mean you're nice, and also, he's an Aztec. They were pretty ruthless.

... I bet Quetzalcoatl is his boss. XD

I am not sure how I feel. Well I guess no one is going to bat an eye at my more sympathetic portrayal of Ahui in my fanart now. 

Man, I'm tired from laughing. Night you guys, I'll be back. XDD

@PathfinderCS @Jerica

[ShadOBabe 18,984]

11 hours ago, ImpctR said:

Quetzalcoatl

He’s an ahuizotl. Same mythology, totally different creature.

Quetzalcoatl is a giant flying snake with feathers. His name is literally “feathered serpent” and he was the god of wind, air, and learning.

Ahuizotl meanwhile means “spiny thing” and was a semi-aquatic monster with a tailed hand that would imitate the cries of human children to lure in human prey, then drown them and eat their eyes and fingernails.

Needless to say, our Ahui is a little different.

[Ittoni 536]

20 hours ago, ggg-2 said:

Guardian huh? Sure i bet that's why you tried to cause an 800 year heatwave that, let's face it, probably would've done more harm than good.

That's not excuse to rob someone's possessions. If that were the case wouldn't you just offer to protect the artifacts in better conditions rathen than just take them by force?

[Ittoni 536]

7 hours ago, ShadOBabe said:

Ahuizotl meanwhile means “spiny thing” and was a semi-aquatic monster with a tailed hand that would imitate the cries of human children to lure in human prey, then drown them and eat their eyes and fingernails.

If he's a water creature that uses water to lure his victims then his boss is must probably Tlaloc, the "god" (because they are not exactly gods but more like incarnations) of everything that is water and thunder. If he kills his victims in the water then his purpose is to bring them to the Tlalocan which is the reign of death (there's two reigns of death but if you die because of water you go to the water reign of death which is said to be pretty chill actually). 

I love what they did with Ahuizotl this time because I'm Mexican living in Mexico and somewhat descendant of indigenous people that have lived here and I've always felt that Aztec portray in movies or cartoons in this case is that of the bad guys  that try to stop the one who is taking their stuff for whatever reason ala Indiana Jones. They depict them like unreasonable magical bloodthirsty savages that were obsessed with death and of course that's not true, but that's fault of the popularity of Indiana Jones movies and the overall misunderstanding over their culture, which is pretty evident here with Daring. And of course the part where Daring destroys the sites is pretty bad on its own no matter how you see it. It's like the people that come visit the temples and sometimes there's things inside them (like spear heads or pieces of pottery) and people sneak inside them and take them! Wth! Don't! Just leave them where they are! And don't kick or graffiti the pyramids! Also don't enter the pyramids, you can get lost and or trapped. There's people that still worship the ancient gods and leave statues and figurines with oferings nearby or inside caves, don't take them!

Obviously there's the part when we first met Ahuizotl in the show and how he's portraid as a villain, but I think that was in part because we kinda were seeing it from Daring Do's and Rainbow Dash's perspective, like reality glossed over the appearance of adventure and good guys vs bad guys. 

it's perfectly logical that Ahuizotl would be a guardian, why else would he be there, and also he's an Aztec! He wouldn't hesitate to kill someone to keep safe the place or thing he's guarding or even punish humanity (ponykind?) for having got on his nerves but the thing is that those kind of punishments are not for free (I mean! freeaking Luna wanted to ban nightmare night forever and refused to lower the moon out of envy endangering everyone! and she's not a villain or inherently evil, she's a guardian in a sense too. The Yaks declared war to ponies for being insulting to their culture and got forgiven in the same episode! and now you are telling me that Ahuizotl is not redeamable and he's out of place when he has reasons to hate on daring do?!  He also has the backup of aztec ponies to punish the foreign artifact thief, pyramid destructor ponies?!). Aztec gods didn't wanted to destroy the world or the people, except one of them, the moon in some versions which wanted to eat the world out of revenge to the other gods. And if this has the same logic as the real world counterpart then this kind of gods can step on each other's feet and since he's more connected to water then Xiuhtecuhtli, the god of heat and fire, can punish Ahuizotl for using sun and heat as methods for his stuff. Although in mlp's version of Ahuizotl he guards Tonatiuh's treasure and uses more sun and heat methods so that would mean that Xiuhtecuhtli is his boss, which is also possible since Xiuhtecuhtli had some water creature's at his command too, and he could severely punish Ahuizotl for loosing Tonatiuh's stuff (because Tonatiuh, the sun god, is literally the Sun, so... he can't punish anyone because his only purpose is to stay in the sky and for him to do that he wants sacrifices with blood because he himself sacrificed to create the fitht sun and he's bleeding constantly. The more you know) along with Tezcatlipoca being his boss as well because cats and the sole presence of jaguars in his team of cats, that would also explain Cipactli's inclusion (but would also cast some questions on mlp's lore and world with having multiple Sun "gods" and incarnations . Good fanfiction material ). Aztec gods are not perfect, they are more like Greek gods in the sense that they can be just flawed as humans and make mistakes out of anger, pressure, distraction, etc.

I loved this episode overall! It finally talks about understanding. How listening and actually trying to understand can make you take off the assumption glasses over everything or everyone. It's one very important lesson a lot of people tend to forget and it's something that we as humanity always lack.

Edited September 22, 2019 by Ittoni

[Brainstorm 4,092]

I never would've thought that Ahuizotl and Daring Do have the same job of protecting and guarding treasures.

[Ittoni 536]

about Caballeron, I think it was very good that they try to not make him totally evil. Yeah we have only seen his now greedy side but it's totally understandable that he would loose sight of his initial objectives once his museum went out of business and his version of the story, although still glossed over by his own perspective on things, has truths in it about himself and Daring Doo. Just recently i saw the "what ruined Don Bluth" by Saberspark and it reminded me of what could be a similar situation to Caballeron in the sense that maybe his intentions were noble at first but his situation moved him to do things he was not comfortable with because he needed money and then his own personality started to get more out of tune of who he was and his objectives before it, or how for Caballeron's his own rivalry with Daring Doo might have suddenly changed him just like Don's rivalry with Disney, but in the end both Don and Caballeron came to terms with their fortune and went back to their roots. It does happen in real life too.

I'm so glad that Caballeron is reformed in a sense and that he also stayed truthful to himself by being honest about his real intentions, that he just wanted money, though that was because of the amulet, and that he had a change of heart when fluttershy showed him kindness, because that happens too! some people will do bad things because they can't really see the people who they hurt but if that person is one that they care about or that they feel doesn't deserve the pain then they will think it two times before doing it again, and if Fluttershy would have gotten hurt because she suddenly discovers she was being used by him he would have been directly responsable for unjustly hurting her when she was being nothing but kind to them. He's not an inherently bad guy, and many people aren't either. That's why Chrisallis is a villain for example, she was given the choice to change, she knew there was nothing but better things for her and her subjects but she purposely chose not to and stay prideful, oblivious and stubborn, she doesn't feel bad about hurting others because she thinks she can still justify it going under that flag and that's why she doesn't get the same treatment as the reformed villains, or better say, antagonists.

Let him have the benefit of the doubt. We have given it to Daring so why not Caballeron too.

Edited September 22, 2019 by Ittoni

[Ittoni 536]

i find it kinda weird to hear the actual real names of the places and characters they choose for the pony equivalent of aztecs. It's like instead of Baltimare or Las Pegasus you would have Baltimore and Las Vegas mentioned exactly like they are in the world of mlp. So we have Tenochtitlan and Tenochtitlan (like... what? the one i can actually go?), Ahuizotl and Ahuizotl, Quetzalcoatl and Quetzalcoatl, and it's ummm... weird, and funny to hear they exist in the mlp universe but understandable because of the language barrier XD

 

[BornAgainBrony 2,395]

4 minutes ago, Ittoni said:

i find it kinda weird to hear the actual real names of the places and characters they choose for the pony equivalent of aztecs. It's like instead of Baltimare or Las Pegasus you would have Baltimore and Las Vegas mentioned exactly like they are in the world of mlp. So we have Tenochtitlan and Tenochtitlan (like... what? the one i can actually go?), Ahuizotl and Ahuizotl, Quetzalcoatl and Quetzalcoatl, and it's ummm... weird, and funny to hear they exist in the mlp universe but understandable because of the language barrier XD

Guest-a-Colt-a?
Oh-He's-Old-Oh?

They probably could've gotten away with just calling him "Monkeyhound" or something like that. All of the older villains are a bit more exotic with their names though.

Naming conventions for that place are a bit ambiguous since we don't even have a clue of who the original inhabitants are. I'm pretty sure the first indication they might even have been ponies comes in the form of the Guardianboyles.

[Ittoni 536]

16 minutes ago, BornAgainBrony said:

Guest-a-Colt-a?
Oh-He's-Old-Oh?

They probably could've gotten away with just calling him "Monkeyhound" or something like that. All of the older villains are a bit more exotic with their names though.

Naming conventions for that place are a bit ambiguous since we don't even have a clue of who the original inhabitants are. I'm pretty sure the first indication they might even have been ponies comes in the form of the Guardianboyles.

no one said it was going to be easy to find a pun in those names. Honestly, if there's no good puns to draw from them i prefer 100 times that they stay with the actual names, otherwise it could get insulting to some people since it's still an actual place and religion for some so it can get into insulting territory, so meh, it's fine... quetzalcolt, Tenochequine... idk 

I just saw the Daring Don't episode and i didn't remember that there was aztec ponies helping Ahuizotl. So there you go. There's aztec ponies living there.

Edited September 22, 2019 by Ittoni

[Lambdadelta 1,462]

Here come the final conclusion of Daring Do adventure, the cat-and-mouse game between Daring Do and Caballeron finally reach its closure... It's a misunderstood story.Wait, what!? Do they retcon Calballeron and Ahuizolt just fit the narrative? They are villains for over 5 years then the writer try to convince me they are not bad in just few backstories, I don't know I could buy that story. Maybe I should rewatch some older episodes to find some continuation errors... 

I like how this ep and Daring Done show Daring Do is not as heroic as people may think (breaking stuffs, or kicking a puppy). The problem of this ep is how they handle villain reformation by retconning their characters. Ahuizolt is actually a guardian to protect the artifacts so Daring Do is the villain in his point of view and vice versa, Ahuizolt was decribed as a villain in Daring Do books so it must be some personal bias. However, something doesn't add up. We actually saw Ahuizolt try to used the artifact for the ritual for 800 years of unrelenting heat so Twilight and her friends have to help Daring Do to stop him. If all the Ahuzolt's appearances are in Daring Do books (Daring Don't doesn't exist) then I can accept Ahuizolt is just a misunderstood guy. It would be very interesting that the twist is Daring Do is actually a thief that believe herself a hero and Ahuizolt is her victim who become bitter and bitter over time then he wants to make Daring Do suffering. But no, Ahuizolt is a villain, just clear as day, Daring Don't show us that he didn't use the artifact for the noble cause so Daring Do actually saved Equestria from 800 years of unrelenting heat. Do Ahuizolt actually hate Daring Do so much for stealing his stuffs that he want to punish ponykind for 800 years? (headcannon) Do writers just think as far I do? Or they just come up this idea of reformation out of their ass to end this series in happy note, sunshine and rainbow? Which one?

The idea is not bad, it's matter of execution. That's the problem of some kids show, they can be very amazing in some subjects like friendship and family, but when come to actually dealing with bad people, they are sloppy. 

I give this ep an 5/10, if they execute Ahuizolt a bit better then maybe it will be 8/10 or something.

Bonus: I forgot to mention Caballeron. His reformation was rushed as well but at least he has a bit convincing backstory that blend well with Daring Don't. In this ep, he still admitted he kinda a dick who stole the artifact for money and try to use Fluttershy too but Fluttershy's kindness can get to him, I guess. At least I can see some efforts to make his redemption works even it was still rushed as hell (everyone forgot that this guy left Pinkie and Dash to their doom). His heroic moments are cool, too. It's first time I actually like Caballeron a little bit so I may turn off my brain for this one.

But Ahuizolt is a different story.....

Edited September 22, 2019 by Lambdadelta

[cmarston1 5,951]

I thought that this was a cute episode, and especially a better last RD episode than 2,4,6,Greaat.  I was spoiled about the whole villains reformation thing in this episode a whiel back, and I wasn't really sure how to feel about it to be perfectly honest.  But after seeing the episode, I felt that it generally worked, or at least it worked better than I thought it would.  I also found that this episode had some pretty amusing lines in it.  My favorites being "It was written from his point of view. I figured it was an artistic choice.", "Also spider cruelty.",  "So Daring Do doesn't kick puppies?", "That was one time! Accidentally!".  Overall I thought it was a good episode.

[BornAgainBrony 2,395]

2 hours ago, Ittoni said:

no one said it was going to be easy to find a pun in those names. Honestly, if there's no good puns to draw from them i prefer 100 times that they stay with the actual names, otherwise it could get insulting to some people since it's still an actual place and religion for some so it can get into insulting territory, so meh, it's fine... quetzalcolt, Tenochequine... idk 

I just saw the Daring Don't episode and i didn't remember that there was aztec ponies helping Ahuizotl. So there you go. There's aztec ponies living there.

Dang. Why didn't I remember them either? Would've been nice to have them in this episode then since we see what Ahuizotl is up to. It'd make too much sense if he's got any type of god-like status that it'd be his mission to protect them, hence the 'guardian' thing.

[Sonic5421 423]

Well, the final Daring Do episode of the series, and I'll admit, it did bring some closure to the events regarding Daring Do and her arch-enemies in Dr. Caballeron and Ahuizotl. Ahuizotl was only doing his job as guardian of the basin and was worried about losing it because of all the artifacts under his control being taken by Daring and Caballeron who believed they either had to put the artifacts in a museum or would sell them for bits. Fluttershy was able to help Caballeron and his men find a means to not try to discredit or slander Daring and ruin her reputation like they had been, and both Daring and Caballeron agreed that they would no longer take any more of the valuable artifacts from Ahuizotl's territory so he would not be punished for failing in his duties.

The ending was interesting with Daring and Caballeron as their author selves working on a new book they collaborated on together, only for Ahuizotl to have gotten all the attention with his own versions of past events now that he had worked out everything with Daring and Caballeron thanks to Fluttershy.

Overall, I'll give this episode a solid 9/10.

[Singe 2,109]

This episode was like a torpedo to the Daring Do series. Not just her episode appearances but also the real life books out for sale.

[Solar Power 235]

A good episode I thought and the right way to end the Daring Do story.

[Truffles 2,033]

9 hours ago, ShadOBabe said:

Oh GOD... Spider-hornets... me WORST NIGHTMARE.

Gotta love them flyders. Also seeing them again was a nice callback to "Campfire tales."

10 hours ago, ShadOBabe said:

Thoughts while watching:

(snips amazing live commentary)

Wow, that's a ton of enthusiasm! It was fun to even just read your excitement over the events in this episode.  I don't think I'll be able to match that when I do comments on the one remaining episode later this season where I felt as enthusiastic as you are here. ( @Dark Qiviut should be able to guess exactly what episode I'm referring to. )

 

2 hours ago, Lambdadelta said:

But no, Ahuizolt is a villain, just clear as day, Daring Don't show us that he didn't use the artifact for the noble cause so Daring Do actually saved Equestria from 800 years of unrelenting heat.

The prophecy in "Daring Don't" specifically stated that the heat wave caused by combining the rings would give Ahuizotl control over the basin/valley. It didn't say he was going to gain control of all Equestria. So it can be argued the control he sought was over pony interlopers who kept coming in and taking all the relics of the indigenous ponies.

In fact, it kind of funny because another part of that episode has Caballeron claiming he tried to join forces with Daring Do but she refused, and she never included that little tidbit in any of her books. So it seems like this was the episode that sparked the idea of reforming both Caballeron and Ahuizotl. (Though in that instance Caballeron wanted Daring Do to join him in profiting off stolen relics, so he wasn't a misunderstood villain like Ahuizotl apparently was.)

It is not clear, however, whether Ahuizotl actually knew the consequences of an 800 year heat wave enveloping his valley. If you look at the situation in South America right now, the warming climate is having adverse affects on agriculture (and is a major contributing factor to all the human migration happening right now) and I don't know whether the ecosystem in Ahuizotl's realm could have thrived in that sort of environment.

 

8 hours ago, Ittoni said:

I love what they did with Ahuizotl this time because I'm Mexican living in Mexico and somewhat descendant of indigenous people that have lived here and I've always felt that Aztec portray in movies or cartoons in this case is that of the bad guys  that try to stop the one who is taking their stuff for whatever reason ala Indiana Jones.

This was a very fascinating analysis, comparing the MLP versions of Aztec myths to the real-world ones. Thanks for taking the time to write all that!

 

As for my own comments:

Overall, I liked this episode. At first I thought I was going to be disappointed because the first act seemed to indicate it was going to be just another version of Daring Done, that Fluttershy's naivete would be confirmed and she'd get angry and help RD and Daring beat back Caballeron. But after the episode showed his gang appreciating and caring about her, it became a lot more interesting and amusing.

Plus, once Ahuizotl became part of the mix, the hilarity really took off. The truth-telling power of the relic was a major part of that - despite it being a bit of a gimmick.

 

It's interesting that even though Fluttershy was the star of the episode, Rainbow Dash actually got the best lines, most notably her "Didn't see that coming" and blurting out her needing an emergency spa treatment.

 

While the layout of the treasure room makes plausible the reasons for the characters to believe that only a pegasus can retrieve the relic, it doesn't make a lot of sense in late-series MLP. We have dragons, and griffons, and hippogriffs now, and all of them are winged and could fly over to the treasure just as easily as any pegasus. Heck, dragons are lava-proof, so they wouldn't even be fazed by the secondary trap the Aztec ponies set up.

I suppose there could be some sort of magic on the relic that locks it in place unless a pegasus is the one to grab it, but that seems arbitrary and there was no indication of extra magic involved by either Daring Do, Caballeron, or Ahuizotl. (Also makes me wonder why a unicorn couldn't just teleport it away, though a magic damper would be a more plausible reason in that instance since we've seen the use of magic shields in the past.)

It could also be that no one would trust dragons or griffons to get the relic, since popular opinion among ponies at the time would be that they would simply keep the treasure for themselves. That doesn't explain hippogriffs, however. Unless the trap was constructed while the hippogriffs were all hiding under the water? Heck, even owls like Owlowiscious could be instructed to fly over and get it - presuming he could be convinced. He didn't seem too keen on treasure rooms back in "Inspiration Manifestation."

 

Looking back again at "Daring Don't," at one point in that episode Ahuizotl says the following:

Daring Do! I will have my revenge!

Little did he'd know that revenge would come in the form of book sales.

 

It's also worthwhile drawing comparisons between this episode and Sweet and Smoky, as both episodes feature reformations that may be questionable, as well as Fluttershy stealing the spotlight.

When debating the reformation of Ahuizotl  vs. Garble, I think it was handled better here. Garble's sensitive side was out-of-nowhere, and the biggest problem is, unlike Ahuizotl, Spike tried to connect with Garble on a number of occasions. Here, this is literally the first time anyone every asked why Ahuizotl was doing what he was doing, so it may not strain credibility as much.

As for Fluttershy's important role, she was actually better in Sweet and Smoky compared to here. Here, her kindness becomes infectious and helps two villains see the light. But there's no depth to her actions beyond that, and its not clear she really knew what she was getting herself into at the beginning of the episode. In Sweet and Smoky, she gets to play multiple roles, cares for the dragon eggs and stands up to Garble when it comes to Spike. Also, I don't think I'll ever see more motherly Fluttershy than I did in that last scene with the new hatchlings.

In the end, both aspects balance out and I like both episodes about the same. (This episode is funnier, though.) I'm still not sure why Sweet and Smoky gets so much hate - or Uprooted for that matter - which is another episode I liked a lot. I guess I could be mistaken about more folks liking this episode than those two; I'll have to see once there's more results in the polling question for this one.

[ShadOBabe 18,984]

1 hour ago, Truffles said:

Wow, that's a ton of enthusiasm! It was fun to even just read your excitement over the events in this episode.  I don't think I'll be able to match that when I do comments on the one remaining episode later this season where I felt as enthusiastic as you are here. ( @Dark Qiviut should be able to guess exactly what episode I'm referring to. )

Heehee, yeah I was a little excited. I live for Ahuizotl. He’s awesome.

But FRICK, I don’t know what I’m going to do! These revelations completely jack up my fan stories about him. I always portrayed him as sympathetically villainous, but but never outright heroic, a least not until years later.

But I can’t even be properly upset about that because I was SO ENTERTAINED!! 

Well you know my fan universe was kinda of stagnating anyway. If I decide to create fan content again, I might just scrap most of it and do a hard reboot, now that the show’s canon will be set in stone.

... I cannot stop laughing. Every time that imagine of Ahuizotl wearing glasses and reading to the ponies pops into my head I just giggle. 

Edited September 23, 2019 by ShadOBabe

[BornAgainBrony 2,395]

Alright. I actually ended up having to watch this one twice because there was so much new information in it, and a number of unexpected twists (even though I was hoping at least SOME of this would happen in a Daring Do episode this season, and a few of my own theories about these characters actually end up being right!).

I'm not going to go over a ton of stuff that's already been said.

19 hours ago, Ganondox said:

. I actually had high hopes when this episode, it had an interesting premise and they hinted at there being some more depth, but then they didn't actually do anything with it. Daring Do's flaws are touched on no more than any other Daring Do episode, and Caballeron really just is in it for the money.

Well, they did do more with it. It's mostly panning out in actions though. Daring agrees not to disrupt Ahuizotl's territory anymore. Cabaleron does the same. But in terms of the usual scope of morals in this show, this episode is actually quite interesting because there's no clear-cut good or bad guy. Without outright saying it, there's more than a lesson in "hearing the other side of the story," because even then you might determine that someone is truly in the wrong, as Fluttershy pointed out. But that isn't the case here. All three characters had their motives and none of them are inherently "evil." Ahuizotl came into this as a wildcard, throwing us for a shocker after we were led to assume the question moral high ground would be strictly between Daring vs. Cabaleron. At the end of the day, both adventurers are thieves and grave robbers. This behavior is sketchy even in our world when it comes to relics in abandoned sites. But this place isn't even abandoned; it's still inhabited! It's actually amazing that it took a kiddie show to get introspective about this. The story is as old as the original Mummy film back in the golden age of Hollywood, but we're always expected to route for the archaeologists. When you break it all down, they're the ones breaking into some guy's house and stealing his stuff.

In a 'normal' archaeology tale, without some ancient entity who still has rightful ownership, this is Cabaleron and Daring stealing stuff from each other. Neither of them has the moral high ground. I had assumed for a long time that Daring was the Indiana Jones character here, "This should be in a museum!" but apparently she's been hoarding a bunch of the stuff. Even then though, it doesn't give her the right to steal from Cabaleron, whether he's just looking to get filthy rich or not. They're rival privateers, for better or worse.

All that said, for those who are arguing it IS this, this is not a redemption story! Nobody really came clean or agreed to approach things differently in the future. Cabaleron is still a profiteer. Daring Do is still a treasure hunter. Ahuizotl will still try to slaughter anyone who dares take something from one of his temples. They've simply come to an understanding where they won't stomp on each other's toes so much, as long as everyone sticks to their end of the bargain.

19 hours ago, Ganondox said:

Sure, Cabelleron ends up learning to appreciate Fluttershy, but really the only reason Daring Do and Cabelleron teamed up was because they were trapped in the same predicament, not because they came to any deeper understanding of each other. They threw in this truth telling amulet, and aside from the fact the characters just wear it for no reason for the sake of plot advancement, it doesn't actually reveal anything interesting.

I think it does reveal something. Cabaleron almost seems like he's jaded, first and foremost because of Daring Do. It would take someone like Fluttershy to break through that kind of cynicism. The amulet? While normally such a thing would be silly, I think it worked here. It served a very good purpose in this case, because "no honor among thieves." It was the only way these three were going to trust each other in a 40 minute time slot. One could almost even wonder if Cabaleron wanted it for this very reason, because it was the only way anyone would believe he was being honest about SOMETHING.

19 hours ago, Ganondox said:

 Their one reveal was with Ahuizotl, but that made zero sense with how he was previously portrayed. Honestly it's a way better characterization than the 800 years of sun crap, but you can't just sweep that under the rug and pretend it didn't happen when you're trying to explain him because it did. The end result was needlessly reforming two characters whose loss of villainhood is actively detrimental as it effectively ends the Daring Do stories, just because the show is ending doesn't mean the in-universe stories need to end as well. At least there is no more Daring Do garbage after this.

Actually you don't need to. It would've been nice of Ahuizotl volunteered this information but under the circumstances, the bargaining posture of either of the Ponies was dubious at best. It would've taken a lot of guts at that moment, doubly so since they were in the midst of negotiating a truce. Again, there was no reformation here. Nobody stopped being a villain. It was just revealed that they weren't villains in the first place. Now, about the ring of destiny. It's said the rings will place a curse, but to what degree? What is meant by "searing heat?" This isn't exactly unheard of in a tropical rain forest. Does Daring Do even know what she's talking about? She's imagining a nuclear bomb but is that accurate? Does the wielder of the ring have access to a thermostat? Based on how much this episode portrays the treasure hunters (and let's not mince words, that's what they are, they're not preservationists), it's logical to assume they don't know how the ring of destiny actually works. Ahuizotl would know better than them. Even if that isn't the case though, Ahuizotl is apparently pretty old. Which means he lived through a VERY traumatic experience, and any historian would be able to make a good educated guess about what that was. Condemn him for wanting to put a heat curse on his valley if you want, but Ahuizotl saw his land overrun by Windigos and plunged into a winter apocalypse! It might be an overreaction, but his obsession with baking the land in heat makes more sense now. An ice age in a temperate zone such as Equestria proper is bad enough. In a tropical jungle it's far, FAR worse.  If he activates the ring though? The Jungle can handle the heat far more easily than a perpetual winter. And Ahuizotl doesn't know the Ponies have found a solution to Windigos, so there's no reason for him to assume they couldn't return. Since they bring with them lethal cold and snow, repelling them with a "searing heat" just seems like the most logical solution.

And on a final note, after all the ranting I've done about "2,4,6,Great!" THIS is how you give Rainbow Dash a flaw without betraying her nature. She had all the reasons to distrust Cabaleron and no reason to distrust Daring Do. Daring had been her idol and friend for a long time and had never crossed her. And while Fluttershy hadn't either, Dash was stuck between a rock and a hard place with even the thought of forcing Fluttershy to not join Cabaleron's expedition. For all the struggles Fluttershy had with being assertive, a friend trying to force her decision would be terribly bad form. Dash was abrasive in this episode, but in a way that actually made sense for her character.

[Thrond 3,257]

I continue to wish this show were less predictable. In general I wasn't that interested in Fluttershy being manipulated by Caballeron, but Rainbow Dash's closed-mindedness got on my nerves as well. I've always found Rainbow's protective attitude towards Daring Do kinda grating, excepting only that first Quibble Pants episode, and this couples that with more boring irony - it'd be funnier if she just admitted that she likes the spa and wasn't ashamed of it, frankly. But Fluttershy's own success in adventuring won me over, even if it's not exactly new; even though her gullibility kinda annoyed me here, her thoughtfulness is adorable. And I honestly didn't think Ahuizotl would show up, because they'd put so much emphasis on Caballeron, so that was a pleasant surprise. I was going to come down as kinda mixed on this, and then Fluttershy asked for Ahuizotl's side of the story, and that tipped the scales for me. I always thought it was peculiar he was shown as villainous in that episode, so having a story about the actual impact of tomb raiding is a really welcome surprise. It's both a great example of the naive empathy that I love in this show and an intelligent counterpoint to the problematic subtext of classic pulp adventures. Plus I loved how all of them decided to copy Daring and pursue literary careers. That's delightful. 

[Lambdadelta 1,462]

2 hours ago, Truffles said:

The prophecy in "Daring Don't" specifically stated that the heat wave caused by combining the rings would give Ahuizotl control over the basin/valley. It didn't say he was going to gain control of all Equestria. So it can be argued the control he sought was over pony interlopers who kept coming in and taking all the relics of the indigenous ponies.

In fact, it kind of funny because another part of that episode has Caballeron claiming he tried to join forces with Daring Do but she refused, and she never included that little tidbit in any of her books. So it seems like this was the episode that sparked the idea of reforming both Caballeron and Ahuizotl. (Though in that instance Caballeron wanted Daring Do to join him in profiting off stolen relics, so he wasn't a misunderstood villain like Ahuizotl apparently was.)

It is not clear, however, whether Ahuizotl actually knew the consequences of an 800 year heat wave enveloping his valley. If you look at the situation in South America right now, the warming climate is having adverse affects on agriculture (and is a major contributing factor to all the human migration happening right now) and I don't know whether the ecosystem in Ahuizotl's realm could have thrived in that sort of environment.

Daring Done was aired a long ago so I have to...

*checking Daring Done transcript* 

You are right about this one, I'm a bit exaggerated about Ahuizolt scheme.

2 hours ago, Truffles said:

So it can be argued the control he sought was over pony interlopers who kept coming in and taking all the relics of the indigenous ponies.

If the writer included your explaination in the context of the episode, it would be the perfect episode ever. It's weird that they do a very decent job at Caballeron side of the story, which include direct reference to Daring Don't, made his side of the story more convincing without changing his character. Whether Ahuizolt scheme is legit evil or not is unknown so it's writer job to explain it to us, just like how they carefully use Daring Don't to explain Caballeron.

 

Ahuizolt is still the problem of this ep.

[ShadOBabe 18,984]

1 hour ago, BornAgainBrony said:

Cabaleron is still a profiteer. Daring Do is still a treasure hunter. Ahuizotl will still try to slaughter anyone who dares take something from one of his temples. 

And that’s how I like them! 

EDIT: I really need to draw Ahuizotl with a macuahuitl (aka “The Obsidian Chainsaw”) again...

Edited September 23, 2019 by ShadOBabe

[Ganondox 899]

1 hour ago, BornAgainBrony said:

Alright. I actually ended up having to watch this one twice because there was so much new information in it, and a number of unexpected twists (even though I was hoping at least SOME of this would happen in a Daring Do episode this season, and a few of my own theories about these characters actually end up being right!).

I'm not going to go over a ton of stuff that's already been said.

Well, they did do more with it. It's mostly panning out in actions though. Daring agrees not to disrupt Ahuizotl's territory anymore. Cabaleron does the same. But in terms of the usual scope of morals in this show, this episode is actually quite interesting because there's no clear-cut good or bad guy. Without outright saying it, there's more than a lesson in "hearing the other side of the story," because even then you might determine that someone is truly in the wrong, as Fluttershy pointed out. But that isn't the case here. All three characters had their motives and none of them are inherently "evil." Ahuizotl came into this as a wildcard, throwing us for a shocker after we were led to assume the question moral high ground would be strictly between Daring vs. Cabaleron. At the end of the day, both adventurers are thieves and grave robbers. This behavior is sketchy even in our world when it comes to relics in abandoned sites. But this place isn't even abandoned; it's still inhabited! It's actually amazing that it took a kiddie show to get introspective about this. The story is as old as the original Mummy film back in the golden age of Hollywood, but we're always expected to route for the archaeologists. When you break it all down, they're the ones breaking into some guy's house and stealing his stuff.

In a 'normal' archaeology tale, without some ancient entity who still has rightful ownership, this is Cabaleron and Daring stealing stuff from each other. Neither of them has the moral high ground. I had assumed for a long time that Daring was the Indiana Jones character here, "This should be in a museum!" but apparently she's been hoarding a bunch of the stuff. Even then though, it doesn't give her the right to steal from Cabaleron, whether he's just looking to get filthy rich or not. They're rival privateers, for better or worse.

All that said, for those who are arguing it IS this, this is not a redemption story! Nobody really came clean or agreed to approach things differently in the future. Cabaleron is still a profiteer. Daring Do is still a treasure hunter. Ahuizotl will still try to slaughter anyone who dares take something from one of his temples. They've simply come to an understanding where they won't stomp on each other's toes so much, as long as everyone sticks to their end of the bargain.

I think it does reveal something. Cabaleron almost seems like he's jaded, first and foremost because of Daring Do. It would take someone like Fluttershy to break through that kind of cynicism. The amulet? While normally such a thing would be silly, I think it worked here. It served a very good purpose in this case, because "no honor among thieves." It was the only way these three were going to trust each other in a 40 minute time slot. One could almost even wonder if Cabaleron wanted it for this very reason, because it was the only way anyone would believe he was being honest about SOMETHING.

Actually you don't need to. It would've been nice of Ahuizotl volunteered this information but under the circumstances, the bargaining posture of either of the Ponies was dubious at best. It would've taken a lot of guts at that moment, doubly so since they were in the midst of negotiating a truce. Again, there was no reformation here. Nobody stopped being a villain. It was just revealed that they weren't villains in the first place. Now, about the ring of destiny. It's said the rings will place a curse, but to what degree? What is meant by "searing heat?" This isn't exactly unheard of in a tropical rain forest. Does Daring Do even know what she's talking about? She's imagining a nuclear bomb but is that accurate? Does the wielder of the ring have access to a thermostat? Based on how much this episode portrays the treasure hunters (and let's not mince words, that's what they are, they're not preservationists), it's logical to assume they don't know how the ring of destiny actually works. Ahuizotl would know better than them. Even if that isn't the case though, Ahuizotl is apparently pretty old. Which means he lived through a VERY traumatic experience, and any historian would be able to make a good educated guess about what that was. Condemn him for wanting to put a heat curse on his valley if you want, but Ahuizotl saw his land overrun by Windigos and plunged into a winter apocalypse! It might be an overreaction, but his obsession with baking the land in heat makes more sense now. An ice age in a temperate zone such as Equestria proper is bad enough. In a tropical jungle it's far, FAR worse.  If he activates the ring though? The Jungle can handle the heat far more easily than a perpetual winter. And Ahuizotl doesn't know the Ponies have found a solution to Windigos, so there's no reason for him to assume they couldn't return. Since they bring with them lethal cold and snow, repelling them with a "searing heat" just seems like the most logical solution.

And on a final note, after all the ranting I've done about "2,4,6,Great!" THIS is how you give Rainbow Dash a flaw without betraying her nature. She had all the reasons to distrust Cabaleron and no reason to distrust Daring Do. Daring had been her idol and friend for a long time and had never crossed her. And while Fluttershy hadn't either, Dash was stuck between a rock and a hard place with even the thought of forcing Fluttershy to not join Cabaleron's expedition. For all the struggles Fluttershy had with being assertive, a friend trying to force her decision would be terribly bad form. Dash was abrasive in this episode, but in a way that actually made sense for her character.

Hard disagree. Caballeron is clearly in the wrong, and Daring Do is in the very least on the high ground relative to him. The Ahuizotl stuff does complicate things, but the issue is that it's completely inconsistent with how Ahuizotl was previously depicted so I can't take it seriously. He HAD a motivation - he wanted to rule. This issue has the same problem with Sweet and Smokey - they are trying to make a character sympathetic by reworking their characterization rather than working with what was already established, and it doesn't fly at all. It they just wanted portray the moral ambiguity of Daring Do's actions they could have thrown in a character that didn't have the same baggage Ahuizotl had in order to play the same role, but no, they wanted to change the perception of Ahuizotl. 

Daring Do and Caballeron wrote a book together, their dynamic has clearly changed beyond just not stepping on each other's toes. It was intended to be a redemption story, they just didn't pull it off well. 

It's just another case of Fluttershy softening a villain's heart through kindness, it's been done to death at this point and I doubt anymore depth was intended. Caballeron came across as less jaded and more just surprised that there a different way of doing things. 

I get the honor among thieves thing, the issue with your explanation is that Caballeron was cursing the amulet while wearing it. The nature of the amulet would prevent from being dishonest about that for purpose of manipulation. As such, it clearly wasn't a deliberate gambit, Cabelleron just had the idiot ball and it ended up filling that role anyway. The mechanics of the amulet could have been changed so that wasn't an issue, but that's not what they did. 

Pulling Windigos out of nowhere is where you cross the line from merely having different interpretations of the events to just making excuses for bad writing, there was zero implication of such. Yes, the writers would have to explain such a thing, because if they don't they will rightfully be called out for telling an inconsistent story. It doesn't matter if Ahuizotl isn't in a situation where he would explain such things because the writers decide what situation to put him in the first place! The issue is less what Ahuizotl didn't say and more what other characters DID say - "Fluttershy: But why? Nopony ever asked Ahuizotl what his side of the story is. He must have a reason for being so upset." Generally, he was accept because Daring Do was foiling his plans for control of the basin, that was pretty explicit in Daring Don't. Fluttershy was there, she should know better. I guess technically what Fluttershy said works in the context of the episode by itself as Ahuizotl merely being bad doesn't explain why he was chasing them in this particular scenario, but the claim he never was a villain is utter nonsense. Even if you conjure up an explanation for why 800 years of sweltering heat is a good thing, it doesn't account for "the dark magic of the Ketztwctl Empress". The more obvious explanation than Ahuizotl really being good all along is just that this episode was poorly done retcon motivated either by the writer forgetting about how he was originally portrayed (where he was a treasure hunter himself who attempted to use artifacts to inflict suffering on the world, that was there in Read It and Weep) or where betting on the reader forgetting about it so they could tell the story they wanted to. 

As I said before, Ahuizotl being a guardian is far more interesting characterization than a sadistic megalomaniac, but the precedent had already been established. The episode failed to convince me that this change in characterization is believable. Your justifications for it aren't part of the story that was presented, so it doesn't matter if they explain the blatant plot holes as the episode itself did not. If they just wrote this episode a bit differently to fix the flaws I might have liked it a lot, but they didn't. 

 

 

 

Edited September 23, 2019 by Ganondox