S09:E24+E25 - The End of the End

[LucasB 195]

The ending speech should be changed to:

"ENOUGH! Because of you, I almost lost my way, but every creature here has reminded me of the true power of friendship. There will always be darkness in the world, but there will also always be those who find the light. The Pillars knew this! That's why they created the Elements of Harmony. The Elements showed me and my friends how strong our friendship could be. Together we worked to bring harmony to Equestria. But there will always be more to do, which is why we teach others about the Magic of Friendship, others who will continue our mission after we are gone. The real magic has always been right here, and the more who understand how powerful friendship is, the stronger we will all be. Together!"

Basically what Twilight said, but minus the part about the elements just being symbols. The logic being the Elements are already falling apart, and Twilight have stated numerous times before (even in the season 1 premiere) about how the elements were symbolic of the ponies or whatever. DWK actually said it pretty well in his "Totally Legit Recap" of season 9 premiere - "In this universe, friendship is a tangible form of energy that through the proper conduit, generate limitless power".

It's actually a really good speech but trying to explain the elements of harmony again at this point is a hopeless endeavor. 

[doomie-22 17]

This finale is basically every single season finale (and movie) from "Magical Mystery Cure" onwards combined, plus "Slice of Life" sprinkled on top. The writers in their infinite wisdom retconed their entire ninth season IN THE SAME SEASON at the end for the sake of a "gotcha!"? Seems like the writers took a lesson straight out of the quality of writing from the modern Star Wars films and went on the subverting expectations path with no payoff. So much build-up wasted! I mean, I knew that they'd fuck it up, but they exceeded my expectations. This finale pretty much made this whole season completely and utterly pointless in the end. The writers really fucked up with this one. I can at least take comfort in knowing that fanfic writers will do a better job.

So, it turns out that Grogar was just Discord all along. Apparently, he got bored and tried to reform them all by himself. It failed. I get the impression the Princesses were not in on the joke. Good lord . . . How?! Did they just throw this thing together while they were collectively drunk and not bother to edit it at all?!

Discord the 'conspirator'. . . my god, I honestly don't know what to say. I don't even know where to begin. This finale was so bad it has a numbing effect.. . . just . . . that would never have worked! He's not that stupid. He'd have known it would fail. Anyone with a fragment of a brain would know it would fail! It's why I said from basically the very beginning of the season that if this was some idiotic ploy to try to reform the villains, it's the dumbest idea anyone could possibly come up with!

The remaining villains all get turned to stone, at Discord's apparent suggestion, which completely contradicts what he said the first time we met him. He said quite clearly, "It's quite lonely being encased in stone. But you wouldn't know that, would you, because I don't turn ponies into stone." I mean, I don't care about Cozy Glow. Others seem pissed, but to me she was never even a character. She's just a tool thrown around by hack writers. They could have had her trampled to a bloody pulp by a mad elephant, screaming in agony until it crushed her head, and I'd have shrugged and said, "Good riddance to bad writing." But the other two villains deserved something more interesting than . . . that! You know what I'm still awestruck about? That the writers somehow managed to make a generic rushed villain redemption feel like the better option than the punishment. But more to the point, has anyone else realized just how evil this finale makes Discord? Instead of doing what the ponies did for him and trying to reform them, he goads the villains on, forces them to take part in his plans, gives them access to a powerful magical item . . . and doesn't even bother watching them. The writers seem to have completely forgotten that he can make little copies of himself to send anywhere he wants, and what was he planning to do if they did get the bell? Then, let's not forget literally raises a dead dark magic user (so he's actually Pony God now . . .), and then gleefully watches them all be turned to stone, which, as I said earlier, is what he derided Celestia about in the first place!!  This is the absolute worst thing they could do! If this finale did anything right it was convincing me that Discord has and always will be an asshole! If anyone deserved to get turned to stone, it was this fucking piece of shit asshole!

[NavelColt 22,875]

On 10/12/2019 at 6:13 PM, Flipturn said:

I've been off the ride since 2014 but I just logged back in to say I hope everyone enjoys this finale. Though the "ride" ends here, you can propel your own ride forward for many years after tonight. Take a bit of time to reminisce on the amazing times this fandom has brought you and then carry it with you. That is, of course, assuming that the ride is not infinite. 

Who, what the heck is a Flipturn?  No other old timers allowed! Y'all cramping my style as that one cool guy who came back.

Great to see you again, though. <3

Have I commented on here, yet? I can't remember.

All I know is I was uber satisfied with the fate of our remaining villains, particularly Chrysalis. Perfection, loyalty to the character they had built up across five appearances, not to mention a lovely conclusion to the show's lore regarding changelings. Now I get to pick up where they left off - continue doing so, rather, but more on that later. 

[Shady Mist 55]

Even though I absolutely love this 2 parter, I feel like it has the biggest number of problems. I think why Tirek couldn't use Discord's magic because he wasn't strong enough/powerful enough in comparison to when he did in the season 4 finale, Chrysalis calling Grogar a goat when he's a ram, when Discord say's "Your welcome." and everypony turns to look at him they forgot to remove a red arrow on one of the guards indicating to turn her head, Tirek took the magic from the Pillars they still had their cutie marks, Luna's voice coming from Celestia, Chrysalis calling Tirek a minotaur when he's a centaur, Discord and Tirek mispronouncing cretin, when Cozy Glow say's "Their right there!" she is missing her horn, and that filly pegasi's voice. That's all I can remember.

Edited October 27, 2019 by Shady Mist

[Latecomer 438]

7 hours ago, Shady Mist said:

Even though I love this, I feel like it has the biggest number of problems. I'm guessing that Tirek couldn't use Discord's magic because he wasn't strong enough/powerful enough in comparison to season 4 finale, Luna's voice coming from Celestia, Chrysalis calling Tirek a minotaur when he's a centaur, Discord and Tirek mispronouncing cretin, that filly pegasi's voice and when Tirek tooke the magic from the Pillars they still had their cutie marks. That's all I can remember.

Did the ponies he drained in the S4 finale lose them?

[Music Chart Fan 818]

Overall, as with the finale episodes for other recent seasons, I found these episodes to be kind of a mixed bag. As the final battle for Equestria, the stakes are high and the unfolding of events is compelling. It was particularly powerful to see the villainous three seize Spike and threaten to pluck his wings - essentially threatening to torture him - and Spike's willingness to lose his wings and go through that, saying not to worry about him. And after the Mane Six stand down so as not to allow Spike to be tortured, they even appear to resign themselves to die (unless the villainous three's combined magic beam would have just stripped their magic or imprisoned them again or something). There are also several entertaining fight scenes. Starlight's battle with Chrysalis, and Starlight's teleporting the two of them to an empty tundra so as not to hurt anyone else, is pretty cool, as is Rarity's saving Twilight from having her magic absorbed. Starlight's breaking everyone else out of prison is another good moment, although I can't help wishing that she used the element of surprise that she seemed to have, rather than announcing that she's able to free herself. It's also neat to see all the ponies and creatures of Equestria assembled to back up the Mane Seven, although admittedly, many of them don't do much other than look intimidating and provide emotional support.

However, the subplot about the villainous three sowing distrust among the earth ponies, pegasi, and unicorns, and the resolution to that being students from Twilight's school telling everyone about the power of friendship, seemed clunky to me. I was frustrated by the characters' responding to concerns about Twilight's leading Equestria, or Twilight's not being able to think of a plan to stop the villainous three, by repeating again and again how they believe in Twilight (and the Mane Seven), and how they've "faced so much", etc., while seeming not to address the actual concerns. (I particularly noticed this in the scene with the Mane Seven in the tower at the Crystal Empire, where they spend a lot of time seeming to talk about anything but actually thinking of a plan to stop the villainous three.) The villainous three have to make the usual stupid and hubristic mistakes in order to give the heroes a chance to defeat them. It doesn't make sense to me that the villainous three are treated as obviously bad and put to "stone sleep", but Discord, who enabled and encouraged the three of them in several ways, seems to be treated just as he was before by the end of these episodes. And there are some other lines and events during these episodes that I'm not quite sure what to make of, which I'll talk about below.

-----

First, I'll talk about this subplot with the villainous three sowing distrust among the pony races, and how it seems clunky to me. Chrysalis says that "spreading distrust among the unicorns and earth ponies is almost too easy", and I think it is too easy. Why are the ponies of Equestria so gullible? The unicorn baker in the opening of the episode apparently just believes Chrysalis - a random stranger to him - when she says that the earth ponies are hoarding food, and that the mayor of Appleloosa said that "if unicorns and pegasi want to eat, they can use their own hooves to dig". If any of us were just walking down the street, and a random person stopped us to tell us that the farmers are conspiring to hoard the food and keep it from us, would we just believe that person? There are all kinds of people who believe all manner of crazy things; I'm not just going to take some random stranger's word that there's a vast conspiracy without evidence or following up on it to confirm it for myself. And do any of these ponies work with and see ponies of other races, and have their own experience that would contradict whatever the villainous three are telling them? So I don't really see why the ponies of Equestria seemingly just believe the villainous three as they sow enmity among the races.

And related to this, Twilight in the tower at the Crystal Empire says "Equestria's been falling apart around us, and I didn't even notice! What kind of princess does that make me?". I'm not sure what exactly this means. First, to what extent was it Twilight's job to be noticing large-scale problems around Equestria and fixing them, when she hasn't taken over leading Equestria yet? Should that not be falling more to Celestia and Luna (and the government apparatus they control) until the two of them actually retire? Or is Twilight saying that that was her job as the Princess of Friendship, even before taking over as leader of Equestria? And what is Twilight thinking that she should have noticed and taken action to fix? Does Twilight think she should have noticed that the pony races in Equestria harbor distrust and disdain for each other just under the surface, such that the villainous three could easily cause that to come out? Was Twilight supposed to have noticed that the ponies of Equestria are so gullible that they'll believe any bad thing that they're told about the other ponies by Chrysalis disguised as a total stranger? I'm not even sure what particular evidence there would be of those things for Twilight to notice. (And of course, none of these questions are explored or addressed by the Mane Seven; right after Twilight says these things, the conversation just goes off in a different direction.)

So the stakes are raised by having the pony races separate and only look out for themselves, and that in turn causes the windigoes to appear. But, as a resolution to this subplot, we're shown that the day was saved, and all the pony races and creatures were convinced to work together, because a few kids/teenagers went to Twilight's School of Friendship and then told all the various societies about the power of friendship, or whatever. I can see that this is supposed to be tying a bunch of things together. See, Twilight's founding and running the School of Friendship did matter! See, Twilight does know what she's doing and has everything figured out! This idea of hers to have a School of Friendship and invite representatives of other species was what saved Equestria! I mean, yeah, fostering cooperation and better relations among the societies and species of the world is generally a good thing, and it's nice to see them standing together. But I can't help thinking that it's ham-fisted to make a few students of Twilight's school the deciding factor that saves the world. If all the pony races and creatures were informed that the villainous three are on track to destroy and/or essentially enslave the world, and that they ought to try to fight back, would that not be enough to convince them to get a grip and try to work together to stop the villainous three? If some powerful aliens were to come and directly and imminently threaten to destroy or enslave the Earth, would humans of various nations and societies work together to try to stop that threat? And if the answer to either of these questions is no, then would these groups really change their minds after a few kids/teenagers tell them about the power of friendship?

-----

Next, this is an issue that I've had throughout this season, but these episodes really seem to fall back a lot on having the characters say over and over that Twilight is ready to lead Equestria, rather than really addressing concerns about that and showing that Twilight is actually ready (and willing) to take over for Celestia and Luna. When Twilight has doubts and concerns about leading Equestria, or in these episodes, about being able to find a way to stop the villainous three, the Mane Seven seem to have little else to say than repeating platitudes such as "we believe in you/us" and pointing out the mere fact that they've "faced so much" or "come a long way" or whatnot, and come out okay. Every time they repeat these things, I always have the same frustrated thoughts in response. The Mane Seven's saying that they believe in Twilight or themselves as a group doesn't mean anything unless there are good reasons for that belief. So why don't they elaborate or explain why their confidence and belief are justified? And instead of just pointing out the simple fact that everything "worked out" before when bad things happened, why don't they go into how they tackled those challenges, and why that would demonstrate that they can/will be able to do so now and in the future? Of course, if the answer is that things "worked out" before because they just did whatever and it just happened to work until the Elements of Harmony/friendship powers bailed them out, then it wouldn't be surprising if that doesn't really inspire confidence.

This even plays into Discord's motivations, when he points out that Twilight and the Mane Six gained confidence after defeating King Sombra the second time, and says "Just think - after defeating three baddies, Twilight would have to believe that she's the leader we all know she is!". But, oddly, Discord also agrees with Twilight when she says that "it was all a lie" by replying "A well-intentioned lie". So Discord apparently believes, along with the rest of Twilight's friends, that Twilight really is ready to lead, and she just needed to be manipulated into believing in herself and her own ability to lead. Why did seemingly none of Twilight's friends taken her concerns about not being ready to lead Equestria seriously? Instead, her concerns seem to have just been dismissed and treated as an obstacle to overcome by any means necessary. How about, instead of pressuring and manipulating Twilight into getting an artificial confidence boost in her ability to lead, her friends actually ask her and listen to why she doesn't feel ready, and if need be, make plans to teach her the skills she believes she's missing, address the changes she would have to go through, etc.? And while they're at it, they could also ask if she even really wants to take over leading Equestria, because maybe she doesn't.

Finally, this issue also comes up when Twilight, Spike, Rarity, Fluttershy and Rainbow are wondering why ponies would be on edge today. Rarity first suggests that "the first shift in royal power in over a millennium" would make everyone jumpy. But then everyone else pooh-poohs that idea, repeating again that no one should be worried because Twilight has already saved them so many times. But I think they should seriously consider that residents of Equestria may not share their unbridled confidence in Twilight's (and their own) ability to lead, and may not share their belief that having managed to defeat villains in itself makes Twilight (and them) ready to lead.

-----

Now here's a compilation of my observations about the stupid and hubristic things that the villainous three do, giving the Mane Seven (and everyone else) a chance to defeat them.

Chrysalis thinks that Discord is no threat without his magic - yeah, it's not like he can tell the Mane Six or Celestia and Luna about the villainous three's having seized his and Grogar's power or anything.

Since the Mane Six have often used their friendship/Elements of Harmony power to defeat villains, even when the rest of Equestria was not necessarily actively helping them, shouldn't the villainous three consider disrupting the Mane Six's friendship among each other? (Although I do have to admit that I don't know how they would go about doing that.)

When the villainous three consider taking Discord's chaos magic from the bell, Tirek says "But taking it all would be madness! It's impossible for any other creature to control!". And a similar message is repeated later in these episodes. But Tirek himself absorbed Discord's chaos magic back in "Twilight's Kingdom" in Season 4, and he didn't appear to have any problem controlling it then. So why couldn't Tirek absorb Discord's magic again now? Was Tirek only able to control Discord's magic back in "Twilight's Kingdom" because he already had magic from all the other ponies in Equestria? If so, why wouldn't he say that?

When Cozy Glow is given Discord's chaos magic, she immediately tries to give orders to Tirek and Chrysalis to submit to her, and she may have possibly tried to kill them. Does that not give Tirek and Chrysalis any doubt about whether Cozy Glow is safe to continue working with? Did Cozy Glow's little stunt there not violate the pact that the three of them agreed to?

After Celestia and Luna have their magic sucked into Grogar's bell, Twilight screams and runs forward to the two of them lying on the ground. But that seems like exactly the time that Cozy Glow could attack Twilight or take her magic, too, while she's off guard. So that doesn't seem like a smart thing for Twilight to do, but luckily for her, Cozy Glow is too busy gloating to take advantage of the situation.

I don't get why the villainous three don't take away the magic power of the Mane Seven and Starlight when they're all imprisoned. Chrysalis tells Cozy Glow that they shouldn't destroy the Mane Seven because "We need to show the rest of Equestria that we've broken their heroes first", but it seems like they could do that just as well by taking their magic power away.

When the villainous three confront the Mane Seven again out in the field, couldn't they just absorb the Mane Seven's magic through Tirek or through Grogar's bell first, and then do whatever they want to do with the Mane Seven? The Mane Seven already escaped once, and were being considered a serious problem that needed to be dealt with. Is this just more of the villainous three wanting to watch the Mane Seven try to fight them and fail again? Is there some unwritten rule that the villainous three must give the Mane Seven a "fighting chance"?

Finally, after the army of different creatures shows up and starts distracting the villainous three, Tirek says not to let the Mane Seven escape, and Cozy Glow says "Which ones?!". Maybe the ones in the magic shield that's still being cast? Plus, what, with all of their power, the villainous three can't cast any magic to make the dust disappear, or even to freeze in place or throw to the side the creatures who are trying to distract them? Tirek does do that eventually, but I don't know why it takes him (or the other two) so long to do that, other than because that gives a convenient window for Twilight and the Mane Seven to be filled in on how students of Twilight's school rallied everyone.

-----

One other thing to address regarding the villainous three and Discord is the disparate way that they're treated by the end of these episodes. After the villainous three are defeated, Celestia says "There isn't a punishment worthy of all you've done!", and, at Discord's suggestion, the three of them are put to "stone sleep", perhaps indefinitely. By contrast, by the end of these episodes, Discord's status with everyone else in Equestria seems to have returned to normal. We don't see anyone particularly holding it against Discord that he released, brought back, or gathered Tirek, Cozy Glow, Chrysalis, and Sombra; that Discord was encouraging them to defeat Twilight and her friends, and he was working with them to plan an attack on Twilight's coronation; that Discord informed the villainous three of Grogar's bell and the power it contained, and told them to retrieve it; and that Discord apparently really was unaware of the villainous three's own plotting to take the power in Grogar's bell for themselves, and he didn't suspect or plan any contingencies for these villains' choosing not to obey him.

One argument might be that Discord felt sorry, and that he repeatedly said that he did these things with "good intentions", but I don't believe that those things just wipe away the consequences of what Discord did, and the risk to which he chose to subject everyone. The Mane Seven are upset with Discord for a little while, with Rainbow's saying that Discord is going to need "a pretty epic make-up". But after Discord helps to break Starlight out (with her, in turn, breaking out everybody else), Rainbow then says that that was "a pretty epic make-up", with the implication that Discord is now forgiven with the Mane Seven. But I certainly don't think that Discord's doing that in itself makes up for what he did. At best, this gives the rest of the Mane Seven a chance to find Twilight, and maybe hopefully find a way to stop the villainous three. But that's nowhere near a guarantee, so even the status quo is far from being restored at that point, and that's before considering the harm and risk to which Discord subjected the Mane Seven, Celestia and Luna, and everyone else.

So it just doesn't make sense to me that the villainous three are considered to have obviously done egregiously wrong things, and everyone cheers when they're put to "stone sleep", and yet Discord - who, in several ways, enabled and encouraged the villainous three to do all those things - doesn't appear to be any more mistrusted then before, and isn't seen to have done anything in particular to atone for what he did after the villainous three are stopped.

-----

Next, there are some lines in the scene where Discord confesses to have been working with the villainous three that seem like they could be very significant, but I'm not sure what they're supposed to mean. Twilight says to Discord "You've been setting up challenges for us the whole time, haven't you? None of our successes were actually real", but which challenges and successes is Twilight referring to? If Twilight is only referring to events with the Mane Seven in Season 9, then which of those could Discord have set up? Discord brought back King Sombra, who was defeated in "The Beginning Of The End", and Discord brought back the villainous three, who carried out the sabotages in "The Summer Sun Setback", but what else? It would be weird for Twilight to be using that language only to refer to two events. So is Twilight instead suggesting that Discord has set up Twilight's and the Mane Six's challenges and successes ever since he was "reformed" in "Keep Calm And Flutter On" (S03E10)? That every major (and even minor) villain/challenge that the Mane Six have faced since the end of Season 3 was brought back, empowered, or encouraged by Discord? Just think back through all the villains and challenges from the opening and finale episodes of each season since Season 3, and also add to that all the various villains and challenges from regular mid-season episodes, too. Are we meant to believe that Discord orchestrated all, or at least many, of those in the background the whole time? That would be a huge retcon to be introducing right in the last episodes of the show.

But I don't know how we're to understand Twilight's dialogue that I quoted above. Discord's response to Twilight's quoted dialogue doesn't necessarily clarify what was meant, either. Discord replies "Of course they were! You just had an extremely good-looking safety net", and when Spike says "And how was that supposed to help again?", Discord replies by talking about the plan to orchestrate an attack at the coronation, on which the conversation then focuses. So does Discord's responding to Spike's question by talking about the attack at the coronation imply that this entire conversation has only been about events in Season 9? Again, it's just not clear to me, and I'm confused by the dialogue in this scene.

-----

Finally, after watching these episodes, I'm also not sure how Grogar's bell works, exactly. In the beginning, the villainous three have to use a spell from a book from the Canterlot library in order to get Grogar's magic out of the bell. The three of them also have to cast magic on the bell in order to take Discord (as Grogar)'s magic. Then, when the three of them test whether Discord's chaos magic can be controlled, Tirek and Chrysalis have to cast magic on the bell to release Discord's magic from it, and again cast magic on the bell to put Discord's magic back into it. But then, when Cozy Glow takes Celestia's and Luna's magic into the bell, she just points it in Celestia's and Luna's direction; we don't see her cast an activating spell on it to make it absorb magic. Also, on several occasions, we see Cozy Glow hold the bell without any apparent sign that she's absorbing or channeling Discord's magic from inside it. But later, in the field, Spike, Fluttershy, Applejack, and Rarity try to "lasso" the bell, being careful not to touch it directly. And near the end of the episode, Pinkie appears to channel, and then absorb, Discord's magic from the bell merely by holding it; we don't see the bell "activate" to do either of these things. After that, Discord takes the bell and absorbs his magic back into it by just pointing it in Pinkie's direction, without any activating spell. Finally, Discord releases his, Celestia's, and Luna's magic from the bell just by pointing it in their directions, also without any activating spell.

So I don't know how to reconcile these observations. Why does Grogar's bell need an activating spell to release or absorb magic the first few times that it's used, but not later? How does Grogar's bell know when to release and absorb magic (and which magic to absorb or release) if it doesn't need an activating spell to do so? Why can Cozy Glow hold the bell without any apparent issue, but the Mane Seven apparently are at risk of channeling or absorbing magic from it just by touching it? I don't know if there's a consistent explanation for all of this.

-----

Now here are the rest of my miscellaneous observations:

Why would there be a tumbleweed in the middle of Canterlot?

How does the pony at the thread shop know what color/type/etc. of thread Rarity wants to buy? Rarity doesn't say at the time. Did Rarity have a pre-order or something?

Chrysalis's telling Twilight that her school is abandoned doesn't seem like it should be as demoralizing as Chrysalis probably thinks it is. If the school is abandoned, then that likely means that the students (and staff) escaped to safety, and that would be a good thing, right? But apparently Twilight doesn't think so, because later, she cites the School of Friendship's being shut down as a reason why nothing the Mane Seven have done has mattered. I don't know why Twilight cites that specifically; the School of Friendship is only "shut down" so that the students could try to go somewhere safe, the same way that probably most things are shut down at that time. Does Twilight expect the school to continue operating in a national emergency of this scope, and if it doesn't, then she's failed? I don't think it makes sense to think that way.

When Chrysalis is talking about the remains of her throne in the cavern, she draws a line in the dirt and says that "on this side of the cavern, we're the most powerful beings in Equestria". So Chrysalis knows the precise distance at which her throne's magic-cancelling powers apply? And she's positioned the remains of her throne precisely so that the villainous three retain their powers on this side of the cavern? Also, what is the distance at which the throne's magic-cancelling powers act now? In "To Where And Back Again", that effect lasted for a pretty long distance away from the hive. So, with that in mind, it seems as though just having pieces of the throne in the same room should make it so that nobody in the cavern should be able to use magic. Or did the alteration of the pieces of the throne, as alluded to in "Sparkle's Seven", also greatly decrease the distance over which the magic-cancelling effect occurs, to a mere few feet or so?

Do the rest of the Mane Seven run all the way from the cavern of the villainous three to Ponyville? How long does that take? And, after not finding Twilight there, do the rest of the Mane Seven then run all the way to the Crystal Empire? Or are the trains still running despite the widespread panic and distrust and national emergency? And while the Mane Seven were travelling to the Crystal Empire, maybe they could have been brainstorming ideas for how to help stop the villainous three, or how to protect the general population, or how to get the pony races working together again, or something, rather than just expecting Twilight to have come up with a plan.

I noticed that Sugar Belle, despite being a unicorn, is sticking with Big Mac and the other Apples in Ponyville, rather than running off to join the other unicorns. It's nice to see at least one pony who wasn't so gullible as to fall for Chrysalis's rhetoric.

Why does Twilight say that if things don't work out, Flurry Heart is "Equestria's last hope"? Is the leader of Equestria required to be an alicorn, even if the only alicorn left is a baby? Why couldn't a non-alicorn lead Equestria, if need be?

Another bit of dialogue that I'm not sure I understand is when Twilight says "Now I truly understand! The Elements were just symbols! The real magic has always been right here!". So the Tree of Harmony and the Elements of Harmony never contained any of their own independent power? What was going on throughout the seasons when the Tree and the Elements appeared to be doing things - creating Twilight's castle in Ponyville, manifesting a spiritual form and talking to the Student Six, etc.? Were the Tree and the Elements just concentrating or channeling the nebulous magic of friendship present throughout Equestria?

After the villainous three are blasted with the rainbow laser, we see Grogar's bell bounce back and away from where the Mane Seven and everyone else are, and we see Pinkie with the rest of the Mane Seven up until the camera changes to focus on Chrysalis speaking. So in the course of about five or six seconds, Pinkie runs over behind the villainous three, retrieves the bell, comes back to the rest of the Mane Seven, and uses its magic to drop a giant cupcake, with apparently no one noticing.

So did ponies actually have to rebuild the destroyed Canterlot? Or, since Discord is responsible for bringing back the villainous three who destroyed it, couldn't Discord be asked to use his magic to restore it?

Finally, is Pinkie paying for all these donuts she's eating at the end of these episodes? Or is she just taking advantage of someone else's generosity?

[Shady Mist 55]

On 10/18/2019 at 4:19 AM, Latecomer said:

Did the ponies he drained in the S4 finale lose them?

The first scene with Tirek in season 4 he drained that pony and lost his cutie mark, when the princesses gave all their magic to twilight they lost theirs, when he took the Mane 6's magic they lost their cutie marks. The reason in S9 E17 I think he was holding back to not take their cutie marks away, but in this he had no reason to hold back, but also when I'm talking about the Pillars, I'm manely talking about Rockhoof sense he's the the only pony we get a good look that he didn't lose his cutie mark.  

Edited October 20, 2019 by Shady Mist

[FirePuppy 621]

These episodes were great. The final battle was epic, and I also liked Pinkie's possession on Grogar's bell, and don't forget the villains' defeat by turning into stone statues themselves.

[Latecomer 438]

1 minute ago, FirePuppy said:

These episodes were great. The final battle was epic, and I also liked Pinkie's possession on Grogar's bell, and don't forget the villains' defeat by turning into stone statues themselves.

Indeed, a lot of us can't forget that, even if we'd rather like to.

[Buttonmash1973 1,024]

And now you can go home, and sleep well.

[Nightfall Gloam 18,231]

Absolutely loved the finale! THIS is how you end a cartoon that's been going on for 9 years. 

[Ganondox 899]

I just noticed a thematic problem the episode has that I didn't notice before. In Twilight's speech, she says "There will always be darkness in the world", which is true, but the events in the episode don't really support her claim. The only reason the problem occurred in the first place was because of Discord, they already had all the darkness sealed, and then at the end of the episode they just seal it up again. It's a kinda of a minor nitpick, but I found that theme really didn't come across. The other thing from the speech is Twilight saying " Others who will continue our mission after we are gone!". Even though Twilight is apparently immortal, she's referring to her own mortality. By itself I like the speech, but parts of it are kinda odd in context. 

[Latecomer 438]

7 minutes ago, Ganondox said:

I just noticed a thematic problem the episode has that I didn't notice before. In Twilight's speech, she says "There will always be darkness in the world", which is true, but the events in the episode don't really support her claim. The only reason the problem occurred in the first place was because of Discord, they already had all the darkness sealed, and then at the end of the episode they just seal it up again. It's a kinda of a minor nitpick, but I found that theme really didn't come across. The other thing from the speech is Twilight saying " Others who will continue our mission after we are gone!". Even though Twilight is apparently immortal, she's referring to her own mortality. By itself I like the speech, but parts of it are kinda odd in context. 

Perhaps Discord is the darkness? But seriously, how many villains came out of nowhere in the show? Even a  stone seal is no promise.

And even if Twilight is aware of her own immortality at this point, she knows nothing lasts forever. There will be time where she dies or just retires, or the scope of Hrmaony just grows too vast for her to handle. So new generations will be needed.

[gingerninja666 487]

2 hours ago, Ganondox said:

I just noticed a thematic problem the episode has that I didn't notice before. In Twilight's speech, she says "There will always be darkness in the world", which is true, but the events in the episode don't really support her claim. The only reason the problem occurred in the first place was because of Discord, they already had all the darkness sealed, and then at the end of the episode they just seal it up again. It's a kinda of a minor nitpick, but I found that theme really didn't come across. The other thing from the speech is Twilight saying " Others who will continue our mission after we are gone!". Even though Twilight is apparently immortal, she's referring to her own mortality. By itself I like the speech, but parts of it are kinda odd in context. 

 

Chrysalis was technically on the loose. She was in the middle of a slump, but she was hardly harmless.

[Ganondox 899]

1 hour ago, gingerninja666 said:

 

Chrysalis was technically on the loose. She was in the middle of a slump, but she was hardly harmless.

Considering how Starlight Glimmer handled her even in her powered up form, I think it's safe to say she was effectively harmless. 

[Latecomer 438]

1 minute ago, Ganondox said:

Considering how Starlight Glimmer handled her even in her powered up form, I think it's safe to say she was effectively harmless. 

"Can be beaten by Starlight Glimmer" is hardly harmless. Especially given that her powers, if not her temperament, lend themselves to more cunning forms of trouble than direct attack.

[Ganondox 899]

1 hour ago, Latecomer said:

"Can be beaten by Starlight Glimmer" is hardly harmless. Especially given that her powers, if not her temperament, lend themselves to more cunning forms of trouble than direct attack.

At that point in time she was talking to logs. I don’t think any cunning would have been coming out of her any time soon. 

[BastementSparkle 20,310]

11 minutes ago, Ganondox said:

At that point in time she was talking to logs. I don’t think any cunning would have been coming out of her any time soon. 

Even if she's not enough of a threat at that time to hatch any grand schemes, I don't think having her running around and potentially draining ponies of love or hurting them is very good. Just because she doesn't pose a threat to the kingdom at the time doesn't mean she can't still pose a threat to individuals, and most individuals are not Starlight Glimmer. Not to mention, as a changeling she has a natural advantage to stealth. Starlight might be able to take her in a direct fight but if Chryssy decides to get stealthy she or somepony else could be blasted in the back before she even realizes something is wrong.

[bwrosas 252]

2 hours ago, Latecomer said:

"Can be beaten by Starlight Glimmer" is hardly harmless. Especially given that her powers, if not her temperament, lend themselves to more cunning forms of trouble than direct attack.

Don't forget, Rarity x Spike (Sparity) temporarily overpowered her in the final battle.

[Senko 459]

3 hours ago, BastementSparkle said:

Even if she's not enough of a threat at that time to hatch any grand schemes, I don't think having her running around and potentially draining ponies of love or hurting them is very good. Just because she doesn't pose a threat to the kingdom at the time doesn't mean she can't still pose a threat to individuals, and most individuals are not Starlight Glimmer. Not to mention, as a changeling she has a natural advantage to stealth. Starlight might be able to take her in a direct fight but if Chryssy decides to get stealthy she or somepony else could be blasted in the back before she even realizes something is wrong.

Which is actually what happens when she does in fact shoot Starlight in the back.

3 hours ago, bwrosas said:

Don't forget, Rarity x Spike (Sparity) temporarily overpowered her in the final battle.

Very temporarily if they had been alone I don't think they'd have won.

[Rixton 1,105]

5 hours ago, Bas said:

It was a great episode!

It was weird though...didn't the ponies use their magic before, but when they stand up against mean 3 they did have (part of their) powers back?

Too bad, it wasn't anything resolved about the Fluffy Heart. I mean, she is a freaking Alicorn for random reasons. Did the CMC even appear at all?

And of course...with all these friendship lessons, you would have assumed the races having learned to look past distrust and differences.

Also, Cozy Glow best alicorn.

I did miss a reformation of the last 3 enemies, though.

I guess the way they get their powers back from "nothing" is the magic of friendship, lots of episodes had this example, the simplest when Trixie got the alicorn amulet, or in the S4 finale. The meaning of this I guess is as long as there is light in the dark, there will be hope, and also this kind of "magic" cannot be taken away like the "normal one".

[Sh Pie 65]

This was an epic finale with a lot of surprising plot twists. From the start, there's the reveal that Grogar, the intimidating and cunning villain who was supposed to be the final boss, is actually Discord in disguise. I didn't see that coming! In retrospection, his involvement in the season premiere and episode 17 was definitely foreshadowing but it was so subtle that I couldn't figure it out. I guess his plan was that he would use the bell as a failsafe, let the triumvirate run loose and only intervene if the Mane 6 couldn't handle them. Too bad he didn't foresee them using the bell against him. I wonder if there was more to his motive than just initiating Twilight as ruler of Equestria, like maybe he thought that uniting such likeminded villains, they would reform on their own through the magic of friendship. In episode 8, that almost happened. I predicted that was foreshadowing for their redemption in the finale but it could have been their last chance, rejected.

Ironically, Cozy's and Chrysalis' acknowledgement of the magic of friendship, as shown in Season 8 episode 13 and Cozy's whole arc, may have made them more resistant to redemption. Past villains, after exposure to the magic of friendship, see the error in their ways and pursue friendship as an alternative to evil. Cozy and Chrysalis pursued friendship as means to commit greater evil, although Chrysalis didn't really care about friendship like Cozy did. Tirek naturally became more susceptible to friendship as the result of Cozy's influence on him and it's ultimately Chrysalis' fault that they didn't get redeemed, saying crazy things like how the magic of friendship is "corrupt" to deter them. Their betrayal of Grogar reminded me of the Mean 6's betrayal of Chrysalis.

Starlight as a villain was pro-friendship as well. However, in her case she just misunderstood it and in the Season 5 finale, she turned her back on it after blaming it for Sunburst's abandonment of her as a filly. She was more of an antivillain than a kind of villain who does evil for evil's sake. So her redemption was inevitable and 4 seasons later, she's the successor to Twilight as headmare of the School of Friendship. Her fight with Chrysalis in the tundra was awesome and shows that even though prodigal ponies like Starswirl and Twilight are more adept in the utility of magic, Starlight is the best magic fighter! I believe that she could have easily won that fight if she hadn't let her guard down at the end.

It makes sense that Cozy can't control Discord's chaos magic. Chaos by nature isn't typically something that can be controlled so somepony calling herself the Empress of Friendship isn't going to get it. Discord is the spirit of chaos, his magic is the product of his own imagination and it's cool how Pinkie is chaotic enough to use it, albeit not without going crazy. I was glad to see the return of the chocolate rain from the Season 2 premiere.

I expected Grogar to revive Sombra to collect on their pact but obviously that didn't happen since Grogar is Discord and the situation was bad enough without adding another dangerous villain. What I predicted to be a finale with Grogar and Sombra as the final bosses with the triumvirate joining the Mane 6 was totally wrong and that's awesome! It wasn't cliche and it wasn't contrived either.

It was cool to see all the cameos like Tempest when all the ponies, yaks, griffons and other creatures showed up in the climax to give their support to the Mane 6. For not just the finale to the season but rather to the whole series, it was appropriate and symbolic for all of these characters uniting around them to show that the magic of friendship wasn't just something shared by the Mane 6. Their friendship spread "like a contagious disease" as Chrysalis put it, through Ponyville, Equestria and beyond. Despite the fitting analogy, their friendship was the cure, not the disease. It gave them the strength they needed to triumph. Chrysalis now knows a more ailing disease and it's called petrification! Who knows how long they will be entombed in stone?

To Be Continued in the Episode 26 discussion thread....

[Rushing cash 824]

Celestia and luna planned to banish cozy glow(maybe even turn her to shadow or something of the sort). Look at the beam they sent towards her... its the exactly same beam they used on king sombra in the season 3 flashback...

look at 0:25...    and

look at 3:10

[Crimson storm 1,825]

I still think cozy glow's punishment was to how do I say it 'easy' they should've sent her to pinkiepie's rock farm 

[Latecomer 438]

2 hours ago, Crimson storm said:

I still think cozy glow's punishment was to how do I say it 'easy' they should've sent her to pinkiepie's rock farm 

There are a few ways to read that...