MLP Villain/Antagonist Reformations

[BrawnyCharger 511]

Now that the series is concluded, let's discuss the frequent theme of MLP villains and antagonists being reformed. Specifically let's place these into 4 categories:

• Villains who are reformed and you are glad they did.
• Villains who are reformed but you wish they hadn't done so.
• Villains who weren't reformed and you are glad they didn't.
• Villains who weren't reformed but you wish they had done so.

Which villains/antagonists do you think belong in which category, and why do you think so?

[Toastypk 920]

I'm happy for pretty much all the reformations..

Starlight, I didn't know what was going to come from her when the episode was new. But it's so good that she had it happen to her. Stygian is my favorite of the reformed antagonists though.

Chrysalis I'm glad didn't reform. Some villains are too good at being villains and it would have seemed weird to reform them, at least out of nowhere.

I would have liked to see Lightning Dust looked at as a potential candidate for reforming, but she's fine as a villain too. The way I would realistically see her getting reformed would be attempting to pull off a stunt so insane that it goes very wrong, maybe landing her in such a spot, badly hurt, that if not for Rainbow Dash getting herself and the Wonderbolts to rescue her, Lightning would be left to be killed. This would give Lightning a new lease on life and renew her.

[Hierok 11,829]

This is difficult for my favourite character, Discord.

On one side I hoped he would stay evil atleast a bit longer, but then he wouldn't have showed up as much.

[Latecomer 438]

Hmm... I think I'm in popular company for not really liking the recent minor antagonist reformations, Garble, Caballeron and Ahuizotl. (The last one especially shows a great disrespect for continuity.)

I'm mostly fine with the choices made in earlier seasons, though I would have preferred different methods of reform for some (like Diamond Tiara and Starlight Glimmer).

I think Equestria Girls seriously overdoes it though. 

[Ittoni 536]

I'm glad with most villain reformations. 

Discord could have lasted a little longer as a villain but then he wouldn't have been as interesting as an example of a chaotic neutral character and trickster God, which I appreciate a bit more because there's not many of them in media in general. He's also a good example of a narcissist that is not essentially bad, he's trying to connect with others and see beyond himself and get better, but his own narcissism and ego would of course obstruct his vision and wouldn't let him foresee the consequences of what he does with good intentions. He needs a lot of patience and support. And actual therapy.

Starlight I think it was too rushed and I would have liked to know more about her past and motives because she kinda did very bad things and was forgiven pretty quickly. But I'm glad that she became a very good character on her own and mixed things up a bit to the main six formula. She's a mild sociopath that's trying to get better and learn to empathize, which she actually does naturally but her own agenda and desires is what makes her walk over others regardless so she has to learn not to. She's traumatized and kinda twisted but not essentially bad. Since she spent basically her entire life without accepting friendship that's exactly what she needs now that she's open to them.

Trixie was an interesting one. I'm glad she reformed but it was a bit confusing for me at first how did she suddenly "got it". I would have guessed she would have resisted or questioned it more but also like Starlight, I'm glad that we could have a character that is not essentially bad but she's still so unaware of others that it causes a lot of conflict and she has to put a lot of herself to get what she did. Again, an example of a narcissist that is not essentially bad.

Some say that Caballeron and Ahuizotl's reformation was not logical and they should have stayed villains, but I'm actually glad they addressed Ahuizotl's problem and that he is not depicted as a villain anymore because this issue in particular goes a bit beyond just being a good guy or a bad guy. I've already stated my opinion on it but basically the issue is that they did Daring real, therefore what she does, tomb raiding, is unacceptable in real life and makes HER the bad one since she's basically stealing from a place that is not abandoned or empty, and even then she doesn't has the right to. It's a cultural problem that is an actual real life problem. But the episode only gave a very small slice of the total justification and doesn't get to the actual point, that is "don't steal my stuff so we don't hate each other and becomes another Hoofields and Mcolts situation that escalated in hate but with actual powerful beings capable of destroying everything only because one is not capable to understand the other". So I'm glad that he's "reformed" because he's not the villain. He's actually the victim of this kind of "I'm going to be the white guy and go on adventures in an exotic land with savages and piramids and I'm going to get a lot of stolen souvenirs" kind of narrative.

Regarding Caballeron, it was a bit of a retcon but I appreciate it because he wasn't exactly reformed, we are just seeing what would be now the fallen hero kinda thing. In this retcon he wasn't doing it for the money at first, he was actually trying to preserve the sites while... tomb riding... but at least he was a bit more careful not destroying anything. Then his museum went bankrupt and he had to do questionable stuff to get money for it, stealing and selling the artifacts, which he suddenly secretly liked better because it's easy money. And the episode doesn't really state that he's not going to continue doing it, we don't know if he promised to only not steal from Ahuizotl but he could well do it somewhere else. So I'm ok with it being vague and with having more complex situations than "is just a bad guy and that's it". And that's why I'm glad too that Daring was not as good and heroic as she seemed to be.

I was up for Garble's reformation but the justification for him was just stupid. What he feared the others find out about himself doesn't justify what he has done as a bully. He was pretty terrible, much more than Diamond Tiara, but he doesn't has a good enough explanation for it. It would have been a better explanation if he said "I did all those horrible things because I just can". And it fits even what his own culture is/was all about, being big strong and bully other races because they can, at least until Ember got to the throne. Make him a Pharynx 2.0 if you want, someone that doesn't fit in this new philosophy of change and teach him what is to have compassion and why is important. If you want the bully route then make an actual real life justification for why someone would be that much of a bully, could be abuse like in Bab's case, or fear, anger, if you wanted to have him being afraid of who he is and the others finding out make him come out as gay, that would explain his overthetop macho attitude and cover-up in his type of culture. Be bold with his situation because it deserves it.

Tirek, I think at the end of the series he actually could have been reformed. Why, because he was shown to have signs of getting better and understanding that's there's more things than himself. He has confidence problems and he's actually the follower type. This joke about the trio being like a disfuncional family Is actually more true than anything, and is exactly what he needed for him to share experiences with others and start to get vulnerable. Discord's taunt and revelation of his daddy issues was also very informative because it's kinda like a Garble situation were he's being a bully because he feels he has to compensate for something else. I would say he's not essentially bad and could have been reformed.

Crysallis and Cozy on the other hand I'm glad they stayed villains. One because Cozy even being a child she's an actual psychopath but one that has already decided her path and method so... there's not much to do about it but to defend yourself and others from it because it's an unstoppable force and it's coming for you with no signs of changing path. Kinda same with Chrissy. She's a frienship incel. Not that that makes her a villain or none-redemable, is the type of thinking this kind of philosophy entails. She twisted her logic so bad that it's become a vortex that only pulls her more and more towards being actual crazy and unreasonable, and in this scenario it would be the same as with Cozy, if she doesn't want to change, even if she feels hurt by it and whatever her past might be, even if she feels justified, there's nothing to be done. If someone gets to the conclusion that friendship is a decease and actually believes it and will hurt you and others on sight convinced that that's what's right to do then there's no way that whatever you want to try will make it better, she's being THAT stubborn. So, sorry Chrissy, you probably didn't decided to think that way but what you could have decided is to at least listen and get help and you didn't so this is on you.

 

[Toastypk 920]

@Ittoni What do you think about the Pony of Shadows thing? I don't make it a secret that I like him, and I really glommed onto his story, but I know I've read that others didn't.

Edited October 25, 2019 by Toastypk

[Thrond 3,257]

In general I liked almost all of the reformations; I like this show's naive conviction that most bad people can be taught to be good. The villains who weren't reformed were almost always ones that didn't seem to have redeeming qualities, and in particular Tirek, Chrysalis, and Cozy Glow were so appealing because they were so evil. If anything I wish they had become recurring comic-relief villains, like Wile E. Coyote or something. I particularly enjoyed what was done with Flim and Flam, who the show managed to find a best-of-both-worlds solution for. On the other hand, although Ahuizotl and Caballeron being reformed didn't make complete sense, they got a good moral out of it. 

I'm only up to date with the Equestria Girls stuff put on the official YouTube channel, but villain reformations there almost always seemed clumsy in a way that they didn't in Friendship is Magic. The only ones that really worked in that series were the human Twilight Sparkle and Gloriosa Daisy, because they both had sympathetic motivations; meanwhile, you have folks like Juniper Montage and Vignette Valencia who got "reformed" despite having no redeeming qualities.

Discord is kinda similar in Friendship is Magic, but his "reformation" was a matter of necessity. I'm not convinced he ever stopped being a jerk, but at least he started to care about others. Meanwhile Starlight eventually turned out for the best, but for a couple years she seemed like a ticking time bomb that everyone was just sort of ignoring. A lot more should have been done to keep her from being a danger to herself and others. On the other hand, the only unreformed villain I can think of that I wanted reformed was Lightning Dust, who I really did think had just as much potential as Trixie. I mean, Discord and Starlight both started in much worse places than her, so I feel there was a missed opportunity there.

Edited October 25, 2019 by AlexanderThrond

[Latecomer 438]

8 hours ago, Ittoni said:

Trixie was an interesting one. I'm glad she reformed but it was a bit confusing for me at first how did she suddenly "got it". I would have guessed she would have resisted or questioned it more but also like Starlight, I'm glad that we could have a character that is not essentially bad but she's still so unaware of others that it causes a lot of conflict and she has to put a lot of herself to get what she did. Again, an example of a narcissist that is not essentially bad.

I'm not actually clear that Trixie "reformed" at any point, really - she has changed, mostly for the better, since befriending Starlight, but I can't point to any big switch-flip moment. It's not like she was exactly evil to begin with, after all.

8 hours ago, Ittoni said:

Some say that Caballeron and Ahuizotl's reformation was not logical and they should have stayed villains, but I'm actually glad they addressed Ahuizotl's problem and that he is not depicted as a villain anymore because this issue in particular goes a bit beyond just being a good guy or a bad guy.

The problem with this is that he was blatantly shown as a destructive bad guy in his first appearance. The retcon just doesn't work.

Garble is also pretty cheap, as you said. And interesting that you pick out Tirek as the most redeemable, while I think many hold him as the least.

16 minutes ago, AlexanderThrond said:

The only ones that really worked in that series were the human Twilight Sparkle and Gloriosa Daisy, because they both had sympathetic motivations; meanwhile, you have folks like Juniper Montage and Vignette Valencia who got "reformed" despite having no redeeming qualities.

I guess after the Dazzlings they got the idea that just depowering a villain was an inadequate resolution.

17 minutes ago, AlexanderThrond said:

On the other hand, the only unreformed villain I can think of that I wanted reformed was Lightning Dust, who I really did think had just as much potential as Trixie. I mean, Discord and Starlight both started in much worse places than her, so I feel there was a missed opportunity there.

Does she really need it? She seems to like where she is in life now - a free pony rebelling against .all that stick-in-the-mud "safety culture" stuff.

[Megas 27,050]

The more characters they redeemed, the more it started to feel like a bad parody, with some of the characters and circumstances getting more flimsy and off putting. To this day, the only ones I feel they got right were Gilda, Diamond Tiara, and Sunset Shimmer, otherwise they were usually pretty bad, some outright ruining entire lore and character arcs. Garble, Ahuizotl and Caballeron’s were straight up horseshit, with the latter two ruining Daring Do’s story by pinning her as a bad guy, and trying to make ahuizotl some misunderstood guardian, like someone’s garbage fix fic all for the sake of the writers worshipping Fluttershy as some kind of pure soul who can make anyone good. And I think the worst is the evil trio, they actually tried to build a friendship with the 3 throughout the season, to the point of making a redemption plausible, and this time it could have actually worked, then they pulled it under the rug for the sake of Discord making everything a test for Twilight. And you know what, redeeming the fucker was the worst thing the show ever did, and that stunt in the end only solidified that 

[Ittoni 536]

39 minutes ago, Toastypk said:

@Ittoni What do you think about the Pony of Shadows thing? I don't make it a secret that I like him, and I really glommed onto his story, but I know I've read that others didn't.

Pony of shadows was a bit different for me. Because i understand Stygian's motive and how he did stole the artifacts of the old six because he wanted to be recognized, so he was planing to use them to become more powerful in order to be like them too, but from there to becoming the pony of shadows, whose also apparently a separate entity from Stygian, is where i get a bit lost, because where does the pony of Shadows start and Stygian ends. I guess that the Pony of shadows was somewhere out there and took the fragile state of Stygian so together they became the big alicorn shadow pony, kinda like negative thoughts that cross the line from being only thoughts to action but that's the thing, how much of that was actually Stygian. 

Regardless i think that Stygian is the representation of ourselves at one point or another when we have felt envy. He's not a bad pony so his "redemption" was just a misunderstanding, kinda like Luna. He didn't need redemption, he needed an apology. 

[Will Guide 21,325]

9 minutes ago, Ittoni said:

Pony of shadows was a bit different for me. Because i understand Stygian's motive and how he did stole the artifacts of the old six because he wanted to be recognized, so he was planing to use them to become more powerful in order to be like them too, but from there to becoming the pony of shadows, whose also apparently a separate entity from Stygian, is where i get a bit lost, because where does the pony of Shadows start and Stygian ends. I guess that the Pony of shadows was somewhere out there and took the fragile state of Stygian so together they became the big alicorn shadow pony, kinda like negative thoughts that cross the line from being only thoughts to action but that's the thing, how much of that was actually Stygian. 

Regardless i think that Stygian is the representation of ourselves at one point or another when we have felt envy. He's not a bad pony so his "redemption" was just a misunderstanding, kinda like Luna. He didn't need redemption, he needed an apology. 

I may have mentioned that as Unicorn Will Guide, my relationship with Changeling Will Guide is a foil to Stygian's relationship with the Pony of Shadows. While C. Will Guide would share my body for mutual benefit, the Pony of Shadows only used Stygian as a host to exist and attempt to cover the world in darkness.

[Ganondorf8 11,118]

I am happy that Sunset was reformed early on in the Equestria Girls series. Sure, it was a rushed reformation that was resolved in a few minutes, but she would have to pay for her crimes by being isolated not only by her peers, but by those who she had become friends with on Princess Twilight's suggestion. Rainbow Rocks showed us how far Sunset had fallen and her struggle to rise up to the occasion. Since then, well, you know what has happened to her since then. I won't deny that she was a terrible villain.

As far as the reformations go, I will admit that they did get carried away by having at least once per season, more if they were feeling optimistic about it. Given what the premise behind the show is, we really shouldn't be surprised at how so many villains changed their ways. We should be thankful that not all villains were given that important second chance to better themselves. A world needs a balance between good and evil. One dominating the other would be purely boring.

[nightshroud96 116]

1 hour ago, Ittoni said:

Pony of shadows was a bit different for me. Because i understand Stygian's motive and how he did stole the artifacts of the old six because he wanted to be recognized, so he was planing to use them to become more powerful in order to be like them too, but from there to becoming the pony of shadows, whose also apparently a separate entity from Stygian, is where i get a bit lost, because where does the pony of Shadows start and Stygian ends. I guess that the Pony of shadows was somewhere out there and took the fragile state of Stygian so together they became the big alicorn shadow pony, kinda like negative thoughts that cross the line from being only thoughts to action but that's the thing, how much of that was actually Stygian. 

Regardless i think that Stygian is the representation of ourselves at one point or another when we have felt envy. He's not a bad pony so his "redemption" was just a misunderstanding, kinda like Luna. He didn't need redemption, he needed an apology. 

Speaking of Pony of Shadows(specifically the shadows that Stygian merges with), I wished they touched on it more.
Like more info since I feel like what we got right now for the entity in-question isn't exactly enough.

[Latecomer 438]

Just now, nightshroud96 said:

Speaking of Pony of Shadows(specifically the shadows that Stygian merges with), I wished they touched on it more.
Like more info since I feel like what we got right now for the entity in-question isn't exactly enough.

There are potential connections to  Nightmare Moon, Sombra, and other instances of dark magic. But those are probably too shadowy corners for such a bright show to pry into.

[Thrond 3,257]

2 hours ago, Latecomer said:

Does she really need it? She seems to like where she is in life now - a free pony rebelling against .all that stick-in-the-mud "safety culture" stuff.

As is, she endangered a child just to get back at Rainbow Dash, which isn’t very nice. I like her daredevil attitude, but I would have enjoyed her developing a nicer version of that. There’s potential for character development there that would have been interesting.
 

I also would have liked her eventually making up with Rainbow Dash. Even Trixie and Twilight Sparkle buries the Hatcher eventually. It’s not a big deal but it would have been nice. 

Edited October 25, 2019 by AlexanderThrond

[Ittoni 536]

1 hour ago, Latecomer said:

There are potential connections to  Nightmare Moon, Sombra, and other instances of dark magic. But those are probably too shadowy corners for such a bright show to pry into.

Well, the shadows in general in the MLP universe feel kinda similar to the Void. The voices of the unknown, secrets, fear, powerful prohibited stuff that calls and consumes once you see it. And if that's true then by it's own nature is mysterious and unknowable.

[Megas 27,050]

27 minutes ago, AlexanderThrond said:

As is, she endangered a child just to get back at Rainbow Dash, which isn’t very nice. I like her daredevil attitude, but I would have enjoyed her developing a nicer version of that. There’s potential for character development there that would have been interesting.
 

I also would have liked her eventually making up with Rainbow Dash. Even Trixie and Twilight Sparkle buries the Hatcher eventually. It’s not a big deal but it would have been nice. 

Those Buckball episodes were more important tho

/s

[Toastypk 920]

2 hours ago, Ittoni said:

Pony of shadows was a bit different for me. Because i understand Stygian's motive and how he did stole the artifacts of the old six because he wanted to be recognized, so he was planing to use them to become more powerful in order to be like them too, but from there to becoming the pony of shadows, whose also apparently a separate entity from Stygian, is where i get a bit lost, because where does the pony of Shadows start and Stygian ends. I guess that the Pony of shadows was somewhere out there and took the fragile state of Stygian so together they became the big alicorn shadow pony, kinda like negative thoughts that cross the line from being only thoughts to action but that's the thing, how much of that was actually Stygian. 

Regardless i think that Stygian is the representation of ourselves at one point or another when we have felt envy. He's not a bad pony so his "redemption" was just a misunderstanding, kinda like Luna. He didn't need redemption, he needed an apology. 

Yeah I meant Stygian in that way, I just sort of combine him and the Pony of Shadows together sometimes in that context.

[Ittoni 536]

19 minutes ago, Toastypk said:

Yeah I meant Stygian in that way, I just sort of combine him and the Pony of Shadows together sometimes in that context.

If we think of Stygian's actions as his and the pony of shadows combined then I would guess he could be redeemable but in the time frame it did it was too quick and not justifiable. Stygian was saved from going into the portal but he himself didn't really apologized for what he did. So we don't know if he felt sorry for it and even felt justified his bad behavior because the fault was placed only on the pillars only. We should have had a bit of guilt from him because ultimately he wanted to cause damage not only to his friends but to everyone else that didn't even deserved it. I still don't think he's bad, he's just very angry, but he's reaction to the situation was too exaggerated, he caused damage to the land and was forgiven too quickly. I'm glad he's doing better tho and I can understand that much anger and lashing towards something that doesn't even deserve it, and I would guess he's reaction was like that because he felt inadequate way before the pillar situation but it got to a point where it exploded, but normally there's more than just a hug and some tea after something like such. But I suppose since he was willing to at least listen and have a conversation then that separates him from someone like the other villains that just don't.

Also like, yeah pillars, wth, you waited until he had to react like that to listen, and not even that, you prefered to not listen and vanished him. Way to go, guys.

Edited October 26, 2019 by Ittoni

[Latecomer 438]

1 hour ago, AlexanderThrond said:

As is, she endangered a child just to get back at Rainbow Dash, which isn’t very nice. I like her daredevil attitude, but I would have enjoyed her developing a nicer version of that. There’s potential for character development there that would have been interesting.
 

I also would have liked her eventually making up with Rainbow Dash. Even Trixie and Twilight Sparkle buries the Hatcher eventually. It’s not a big deal but it would have been nice. 

We have a nice Lightning Dust already. She's called Rainbow Dash.

 

[Ittoni 536]

It's funny but I think Sombra, of all people, could have been redeemed. 

Why? You say. Well, because at the end of his attack to Canterlot and soon defeat he was so scared of getting the rainbow and die again that he was pissing his pants and was almost crying. To get someone so full of himself to be that vulnerable is the exact moment when they get it and you win. Normally from then on they loose all power, all confidence, all credibility because they were completely exposed. You didn't need the rainbow laser, you already mentally destroyed him. And with him in that state could be open to get help and safety from anyone that could bring it in that moment. Like Starlight's breakdown. 

But they were like "meh, fuck him". I don't blame them, he caused a lot of damage because of his ego but emm... you guys made him suffer until he died. I'm pretty sure he won't try that again if he revives again again.

Edited October 26, 2019 by Ittoni

[nightshroud96 116]

1 hour ago, Ittoni said:

It's funny but I think Sombra, of all people, could have been redeemed. 

Why? You say. Well, because at the end of his attack to Canterlot and soon defeat he was so scared of getting the rainbow and die again that he was pissing his pants and was almost crying. To get someone so full of himself to be that vulnerable is the exact moment when they get it and you win. Normally from then on they loose all power, all confidence, all credibility because they were completely exposed. You didn't need the rainbow laser, you already mentally destroyed him. And with him in that state could be open to get help and safety from anyone that could bring it in that moment. Like Starlight's breakdown. 

But they were like "meh, fuck him". I don't blame them, he caused a lot of damage because of his ego but emm... you guys made him suffer until he died. I'm pretty sure he won't try that again if he revives again again.

Honestly I think I prefer Sombra being redeemed too.
I mean, its kind of awkward that while he was still alive and redeemed in the comics, but in the show it turns out he was still gone this whole time and still evil and was only brought back only to get essentially killed again.
 

[Thrond 3,257]

2 hours ago, Kiryu-Chan said:

Those Buckball episodes were more important tho

/s

They basically torpedoed any hope of Lightning Dust reforming in that second episode she appeared in.

[Megas 27,050]

Just now, AlexanderThrond said:

They basically torpedoed any hope of Lightning Dust reforming in that second episode she appeared in.

Eh, I was actually expecting them to give her one more go in S9, but they spent so much of S9 twiddling their thumbs wasting time on dumb shit no one wanted that I lost hope. Leaving her out of the finale especially felt spiteful, especially when they go out of their way to show the fucking Flim Flam Bros

[Ittoni 536]

3 minutes ago, nightshroud96 said:

Honestly I think I prefer Sombra being redeemed too.
I mean, its kind of awkward that while he was still alive and redeemed in the comics, but in the show it turns out he was still gone this whole time and still evil and was only brought back only to get essentially killed again.