Grogar Twist.

[CastletonSnob 3,023]

Now that we've had time to take in the finale, how do you feel about the Grogar twist?

I still say it's one of the worst decisions the writing staff has made for the show. Even if you don't think Grogar was interesting, Discord's plan was completely stupid. He brings Equestria's biggest threats together and makes them get a super-powerful weapon just to test Twilight? And he seriously doesn't expect them to turn on him? It also means Discord was responsible for every bad thing that happened in S9.

Any way I look at it, this is bad writing. How did nobody on the writing staff look at this and realize, "Wait, this is a TERRIBLE idea!"?

[Castle Bleck 19,163]

Even sadder?

Doc Harris ("Grogar") managed to sound just like Michael Bell (G1 Grogar), so this also wasted a perfectly good talent.

Edited December 21, 2019 by Anti-Villain

[cmarston1 5,951]

Hot take:

I actually didn't mind the Grogar twist.  I thought it actually made sense for Discord as a character to do something like this.  He is the type of character who would be a trickster type mentor in order to teach characters a lesson which can be seen through episodes such as The Beginning of the End and What About Discord.  Not only that but I found it kinda weird how throughout the season "Grogar" didn't really do much and left Cozy Glow, Tirek, and Chrysalis off to their own devices.  So learning that "Grogar" was Discord all along and that this was all a plan on his part makes sense to me.  Not only that but given how Discord was portrayed in The Beginning of the End in particular, with him really emphasizing on how he wanted the mane 6 to defeat Sombra on their own without his help, looking back I feel that it was decently foreshadowed to be perfectly honest.  All of which is why I was okay with the twist happening.

Edited December 21, 2019 by cmarston1

[Megas 27,047]

Just hearing how it went just made me go "man fuck Discord with an iron pipe". Twist managed to ruin S9 more than it already was by rendering some of the few good episodes the season utterly pointless all so the writers could go "man! We got you good!!1!". Singlehandedly the worst thing the show has ever done, and I'm very much including Newbie Dash there

[Splashee 28,537]

They were waiting too long with Grogar, throughout the entire Season 9, they could have made an interesting story. Instead they just waited until the last second and reduced him to nothing. To a fan of the older generation, that hurt. But what hurt was to have so many of Season 9's episodes go to waste.

 

Discord needed to be removed from the final, as he could fix any problem. They kinda wrote themselves into the corner in the first two episodes of Season 9, but we did get to see King Sombra again (with a voice that I hope to forget).

[Misty Shadow 7,059]

I completely see why this twist is so disliked, but I also get the logic behind it. Reforming Discord unfortunately created an easy window for plotholes. He always has to either lose his powers, be working against the good guys, or be holding back to test them in order for the question of, "Why doesn't Discord just snap his fingers and fix everything?", to be answered. It's not about the twist being badly written, keeping that and the clear foreshadowing it had throughout the season in mind, it's just the fact that it is the final twist of the series that makes the finale of the show lose its feeling of finality. However, I'm a what happened happened kind of guy, I understand that MLP is also a franchise that the show has to leave open avenues for, and I don't care so long as I get my good-quality Season 10 comic. 

[Rushing cash 824]

Before the finale, I wondered if the trio will defeat grogar considering they got more focus(and after I watched the trailer it made more sense) so the fact they beat him did not surprise me(although I thought if we got to see new super powerful it would be a really cool finale) and instead of reforming a new villain that did nothing they made him discord, the embodiment of CHAOS the one behind it, which is a better option out of the 2 considering discords character. Some fans love to see discord as a good guy but I always thought it was a wast, makes more sense for him to be neutral and just enjoy what is going down and adding to it, so I though in season 4 he was portrayed the best in the series. This twist actually made me like him more, it was good to see that he is still chaotic and his way of helping is through chaos. So yeah, I love the twist, and seeing overall I see it got a pretty good reception after the leaked freakout of the fandom. It also made more sense for discord previous regular disappearances during the major villain attacks.  

[nightshroud96 116]

7 hours ago, CloudMistDragon said:

I completely see why this twist is so disliked, but I also get the logic behind it. Reforming Discord unfortunately created an easy window for plotholes. He always has to either lose his powers, be working against the good guys, or be holding back to test them in order for the question of, "Why doesn't Discord just snap his fingers and fix everything?", to be answered. It's not about the twist being badly written, keeping that and the clear foreshadowing it had throughout the season in mind, it's just the fact that it is the final twist of the series that makes the finale of the show lose its feeling of finality. However, I'm a what happened happened kind of guy, I understand that MLP is also a franchise that the show has to leave open avenues for, and I don't care so long as I get my good-quality Season 10 comic. 

Honestly a easy fix for Discord so he won't break the story into two with his reality-warping powers is introduce weaknesses too it so he could still use them but won't break the story.
Like say due to how "unstable" his chaos magic is, being in the presence of powerful dark magic(especially too long) ends up causing his powers to be "uncooperative". As in messing up on him so he at least won't fix everything with a literal  snap of his fingers and render the villain's threat artificial.
That way he could still do some stuff with his magic but is prevented from breaking the story into two with a literal snap of his fingers.

[EpicEnergy 22,063]

I am a little disappointed that it wasn't the real Grogar, but at the same time it was extremely helpful to the plot. It removed the fact that Discord could have easily defeated the villain trio if things went wrong, and it stopped the villain trio from using Grogar's bell to essentially become invincible since they could not control Discord's power. Not only was it helpful to the plot, but it also leaves room for theories as to what happened to the real Grogar and if he would one day reveal himself. So, I think the Discord pretending to be Grogar twist was fine.

[Rumpelstiltskin 45]

The whole thing annoys me, not only because I was hyped for Grogar, but because it made Discord look like a total tool. Not only did he take four villains who were rendered inactive and make them dangerous again, he never even bothered to keep tabs on them even though he should've known they couldn't be trusted and he sent them after an artifact that was specifically dangerous to him. It didn't even make sense for the triad to lie to who they thought was Grogar because they should've suspected he was watching them through his crystal ball. The other aspect I don't like is the way Discord was planing to use the Legion of Doom as essentially canon fodder. It was like they weren't people to him, just obstacles he could set up like dominoes for his friends to knock over.

But what really left a bad taste in my mouth was that after they were defeated, rather than feeling some responsibility for making them so dangerous and perhaps pitying them, he instead gets vindictive and traps them in a punishment he admitted he hated. 

[nightshroud96 116]

1 hour ago, Rumpelstiltskin said:

 The other aspect I don't like is the way Discord was planing to use the Legion of Doom as essentially canon fodder. It was like they weren't people to him, just obstacles he could set up like dominoes for his friends to knock over.

But what really left a bad taste in my mouth was that after they were defeated, rather than feeling some responsibility for making them so dangerous and perhaps pitying them, he instead gets vindictive and traps them in a punishment he admitted he hated. 

That whole bit there is one big thing that bothered me about his plan. Or at least the impression I am getting.
Such as what would have happen to the trio if Discord's plan went off without a hitch?  That thought there bothers me.

Really.. I am disappointed on Chrysalis's fate. And the fact its ultimately Discord's fault of what happened to her just.. ugh.
Before someone says "But she rejected the chance to reform in Frienemies, she choose this path and must pay". I am pretty sure she is in a pretty bad mental state at the time to make rational decisions(and sounds like its going to take more than the Frienemies scenario to help her). And also its still Discord's fault regardless, if he didn't pull this plan then Chrysalis would still be alone and most likely be a nuisance than an actual threat with the state she was in, along with she wouldn't have gone off the deep end further and ultimately ended up statued.
I guess since I am just fond of Chrysalis and didn't like the fact she's a statue there(and how no matter what, Discord is responsible for that).
I don't care about Tirek nor Cozy Glow(though I do acknowledge the controversy with her. Honestly the writers did not think things through when they came up with Cozy Glow due to how split some of the fans in the fandom had been due to issues with her) but I did care about Chrysalis alot.
If the writers wanted to leave the trio's fates up to the fans, don't freaking turn them to stone. There are better ways on having their fates be left up to the fans than the statue bit.
Chrysalis is a great villain but I rather see her reform(at least try to make the reforming good) than her suffering a horrible fate like being turned to stone(especially if the iffy plan of a certain chaos spirit is ultimately responsible for..)
 

[heavens-champion 1,893]

From what I've heard about it, all I can say is 'what a waste of a perfectly good character'.

[Dark Qiviut 22,160]

I still don’t like it. In fact, I think I hate it. Minus some changes (I no longer call it “well-planned” behind the scenes; it wasn’t), my comments here stand. Discord’s plan was beyond reckless, risking millions of lives over a short-sighted goal of making Twilight feel self-empowered. By revealing to being the trump card throughout S9 (including bringing back Sombra), he made every villain defeat feel less of an accomplishment to the characters, thereby making Twilight feel worse than before.

More importantly, this plan doesn’t feel so in character for one key reason: he put his friendship with Fluttershy at risk; didn’t he think of imagining what would happen should she find out eventually? No, he didn’t. He may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but that stretches my suspension of disbelief way too thin.

Edited January 16, 2020 by Dark Qiviut

[nightshroud96 116]

32 minutes ago, Dark Qiviut said:

I still don’t like it. In fact, I think I hate it. Minus some changes (I no longer call it “well-planned” behind the scenes; it wasn’t), my comments here stand. Discord’s plan was beyond reckless, risking millions of lives over a short-sighted goal of making Twilight feel self-empowered. By revealing to being the trump card throughout S9 (including bringing back Sombra), he made every villain defeat feel less of an accomplishment to the characters, thereby making Twilight feel worse than before.

More importantly, this plan doesn’t feel so in character for one key reason: he put his friendship with Fluttershy at risk; didn’t he think of imagining what would happen should she find out eventually? No, he didn’t. He may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but that stretches my suspension of disbelief way too thin.

I am hoping the season 10 comics touch on how badly he screwed up with this plan.
The consequences such as everyone's trust with him got damaged big time.

If I were one of the characters that is friends with him, I can't help but have the doubt of "How do I know he won't pull something behind out backs again?" echoing deep within my mind.
 

[Dark Qiviut 22,160]

45 minutes ago, nightshroud96 said:

I am hoping the season 10 comics touch on how badly he screwed up with this plan.
The consequences such as everyone's trust with him got damaged big time.

If I were one of the characters that is friends with him, I can't help but have the doubt of "How do I know he won't pull something behind out backs again?" echoing deep within my mind.
 

I hope they will, too. Sure, the characters make up and forgive quite a lot, but there oughta be limits of when they can start trusting him again. Ponies ostracizing and not trusting him for this trick is one way. No, he doesn’t need to be punished, since he didn’t commit the crimes, but he needs something so he really understood the gravity of the consequences.

[nightshroud96 116]

4 hours ago, Dark Qiviut said:

I hope they will, too. Sure, the characters make up and forgive quite a lot, but there oughta be limits of when they can start trusting him again. Ponies ostracizing and not trusting him for this trick is one way. No, he doesn’t need to be punished, since he didn’t commit the crimes, but he needs something so he really understood the gravity of the consequences.

Honestly he shouldn't have been allowed to decide the trio's fates like that.
Before someone saying the royal sisters would have killed them, I am pretty sure they wouldn't do that.  Since I am pretty sure Celestia's nature(and by proxy Luna) would not allow her to horribly kill someone like that(or otherwise she would have destroyed Discord's statue to end his threat for good or killed Tirek instead of sending him to Tarturus. Unless its stated that Discord is too powerful to be killed by breaking his statue to bits, then I am assuming Celestia can't bring herself to kill him like that when he was like that). They would have most likely just beat the trio up and send them to Tarturus.

Discord should go through what Sunset did in Rainbow Rocks, dealing with the ponies angry at him and not trusting him. I can definitely see at least the Crystal Ponies wanting him dead due to him bringing back the very monster that practically scarred them for life(and they are most likely now no longer feel safe with the fear of Sombra might come back AGAIN even though he was supposed to be gone for good). Heck, I can see Cadance and Shining Armor FURIOUS at him because of this.
And he has to work to gain that trust again(at first he tries to not care but the fact they might start blaming him for everything now if something pops up would surely make him bothered by this).
 

[Megas 27,047]

21 hours ago, Dark Qiviut said:

I still don’t like it. In fact, I think I hate it. Minus some changes (I no longer call it “well-planned” behind the scenes; it wasn’t), my comments here stand. Discord’s plan was beyond reckless, risking millions of lives over a short-sighted goal of making Twilight feel self-empowered. By revealing to being the trump card throughout S9 (including bringing back Sombra), he made every villain defeat feel less of an accomplishment to the characters, thereby making Twilight feel worse than before.

More importantly, this plan doesn’t feel so in character for one key reason: he put his friendship with Fluttershy at risk; didn’t he think of imagining what would happen should she find out eventually? No, he didn’t. He may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but that stretches my suspension of disbelief way too thin.

What’s worse

Spoiler

If the leaks were anything to go by, had it gone the way it was originally planned, Discord would have actually had a good motivation doing what he did, his friendship with Fluttershy playing a big part in it

 

[nightshroud96 116]

1 minute ago, Megas said:

What’s worse

  Hide contents

If the leaks were anything to go by, had it gone the way it was originally planned, Discord would have actually had a good motivation doing what he did, his friendship with Fluttershy playing a big part in it

 

Spoiler

Honestly if they went with the original plan, I would feel even more iffy about Luna.
I already feel iffy about her retiring but the fact she would not be allowed to be among the living anymore because "balance" would be even worse.
She lost a 1000 years due to being stuck on the moon via the NMM fiasco. And she just got back from the moon since a few years, her being smacked with the news of she is not allowed to be "alive" would make the 1000 years banishment part hurt her worse. 

 

[Rushing cash 824]

56 minutes ago, Megas said:

What’s worse

  Hide contents

If the leaks were anything to go by, had it gone the way it was originally planned, Discord would have actually had a good motivation doing what he did, his friendship with Fluttershy playing a big part in it

 

 

53 minutes ago, nightshroud96 said:

  Hide contents

Honestly if they went with the original plan, I would feel even more iffy about Luna.
I already feel iffy about her retiring but the fact she would not be allowed to be among the living anymore because "balance" would be even worse.
She lost a 1000 years due to being stuck on the moon via the NMM fiasco. And she just got back from the moon since a few years, her being smacked with the news of she is not allowed to be "alive" would make the 1000 years banishment part hurt her worse. 

 

I have never heard of this leak before, what was it about?

[nightshroud96 116]

5 minutes ago, Rushing cash said:

 

I have never heard of this leak before, what was it about?

Apparently someone found a leak showing a original draft of what season 9 was going to be about.
Or specifically its some small outline of what was going to happen.

Not sure if its true or not.
But if it is, then what was the original plan going to be would have bothered me more on how it would have happen with the royal sisters.

[Rushing cash 824]

9 minutes ago, nightshroud96 said:

Apparently someone found a leak showing a original draft of what season 9 was going to be about.
Or specifically its some small outline of what was going to happen.

Not sure if its true or not.
But if it is, then what was the original plan going to be would have bothered me more on how it would have happen with the royal sisters.

I never heard of it, I did hear that they though about

Spoiler

making twilight turn evil for some time but never really went with it, and that they wanted to include some other elemts and make tirek do something with earth ponies.

 

[Megas 27,047]

3 minutes ago, Rushing cash said:

 

I have never heard of this leak before, what was it about?

Spoiler

The original plan was, with the world experiencing a long time of harmony, Twilight would take over, but instead of retiring, The Princess's "time in the physical realm would be running short". In other words, they would die, and apparently Discord was linked to this. He'd free the villains and try to stir up some disharmoy in an attempt to stay because he didn't want to leave Fluttershy. Whether it was reasonable or well executed or not I think would be besides the point because there'd at least be a believable motive instead of "lol I just wanted to test Twilight". I'd figure Hasbro said no for obvious reasons and instead of finding a better workaround or trying something different they decided to half ass everything instead, which would explain why the Princesses retiring felt off and out of nowhere

 

[nightshroud96 116]

7 minutes ago, Rushing cash said:

I never heard of it, I did hear that they though about

  Hide contents

making twilight turn evil for some time but never really went with it, and that they wanted to include some other elemts and make tirek do something with earth ponies.

 

Spoiler

Also the original idea was why the sisters decide to retire is because due to balance stuff, they are told by a voice or something they have to "ascend"(aka not freaking being alive anymore).
Same with Discord, which caused him to pull this Grogar stuff in order to disrupt stuff so he won't have to go and leave Fluttershy.
Pretty much he(as Grogar) gathers the villains and makes the Elements of Disharmony to do this.

Honestly that divine voice or whatever is a huge jerk pretty much.  This whole mess in the original idea happened because it had to go and say "sorry, you aren't allowed to be among the living anymore because BaLAncE hurr durr".  Just.. wow

 

3 minutes ago, Megas said:

  Hide contents

The original plan was, with the world experiencing a long time of harmony, Twilight would take over, but instead of retiring, The Princess's "time in the physical realm would be running short". In other words, they would die, and apparently Discord was linked to this. He'd free the villains and try to stir up some disharmoy in an attempt to stay because he didn't want to leave Fluttershy. Whether it was reasonable or well executed or not I think would be besides the point because there'd at least be a believable motive instead of "lol I just wanted to test Twilight". I'd figure Hasbro said no for obvious reasons and instead of finding a better workaround or trying something different they decided to half ass everything instead, which would explain why the Princesses retiring felt off and out of nowhere

 

Spoiler

Honestly the reason of the sisters retiring in the original idea is terrible.
Especially for Luna since she just got back from the moon.  
They should at least make it so NMM comes back via Luna's despair and anger that she was smacked with the news of she isn't allowed to stay among the living anymore.
Seriously, the poor princess went through alot of c***, smacking her with that kind of news is just not cool.

 

Edited January 17, 2020 by nightshroud96

[Rushing cash 824]

7 minutes ago, Megas said:

  Hide contents

The original plan was, with the world experiencing a long time of harmony, Twilight would take over, but instead of retiring, The Princess's "time in the physical realm would be running short". In other words, they would die, and apparently Discord was linked to this. He'd free the villains and try to stir up some disharmoy in an attempt to stay because he didn't want to leave Fluttershy. Whether it was reasonable or well executed or not I think would be besides the point because there'd at least be a believable motive instead of "lol I just wanted to test Twilight". I'd figure Hasbro said no for obvious reasons and instead of finding a better workaround or trying something different they decided to half ass everything instead, which would explain why the Princesses retiring felt off and out of nowhere

 

 

7 minutes ago, nightshroud96 said:

  Hide contents

Also the original idea was why the sisters decide to retire is because due to balance stuff, they are told by a voice or something they have to "ascend"(aka not freaking being alive anymore).
Same with Discord, which caused him to pull this Grogar stuff in order to disrupt stuff so he won't have to go and leave Fluttershy.
Pretty much he(as Grogar) gathers the villains and makes the Elements of Disharmony to do this.

Honestly that divine voice or whatever is a huge jerk pretty much.  This whole mess in the original idea happened because it had to go and say "sorry, you aren't allowed to be among the living anymore because BaLAncE hurr durr".  Just.. wow

 

  Hide contents

Honestly the reason of the sisters retiring in the original idea is terrible.
Especially for Luna since she just got back from the moon.  
They should at least make it so NMM comes back via Luna's despair and anger that she was smacked with the news of she isn't allowed to stay among the living anymore.
Seriously, the poor princess went through alot of c***, smacking her with that kind of news is just not cool.

 

Well, I can see why that may have more appeal since its much darker and deeper, but I understand why they did not do it. It may feel a bit out of nowhere, especially that they wanted it done in a matter of days, but its the best conclusion in my opinion, twilight becoming the ruler is the perfect end,n and while I adore luna, her spending the majority of her life on the moon and ruling alongside her sister for 100 something years is part of her punishment for trying to kill her sister and force her subjects for eternal night. The elements of disharmony sounds pretty cool, but what we got was really good in my opinion, its one of discords best seasons I would say, I always wanted him to be more neutral and true to his nature(season 4 was exactly as I pictured him).

[nightshroud96 116]

8 minutes ago, Rushing cash said:

 

 while I adore luna, her spending the majority of her life on the moon and ruling alongside her sister for 100 something years is part of her punishment for trying to kill her sister and force her subjects for eternal night.

Spoiler

Doesn't mean Luna had to be smacked with the news of she can't be among the living after being back from the moon since a few years.
She had suffered enough and went through alot of cr***.
Also its not entirely her fault for the NMM mess(and from the looks of it, NMM is basically spawned from her jealously and took over. Luna snapping like that caused that darker persona to take over and cause even more trouble) since I am pretty sure Celestia didn't realize Luna was suffering before it was too late. Pretty much both sisters screwed up big time rather than Luna alone.
In fact the 1000 years thing would be even worse since Luna essentially lost a 1000 years of being able to experience life and not have long to live.  She doesn't deserve to suffer like that though. Its too much of a punishment honestly.

Honestly if they went with this idea, they need to make it so Luna is NOT fine with this.
And probably NMM comes back due to Luna's despair and anger from this news, like after Discord has been stopped, Luna just snaps again and NMM pops back up and goes on a rampage due to being consumed with many negative emotions from the news.

Or at least have it be a major conflict like Luna ends up being depressed or even more remorseful about the NMM fiasco.
  

 

 

Edited January 17, 2020 by nightshroud96