Grogar Twist.

[Rushing cash 824]

2 minutes ago, nightshroud96 said:

  Hide contents

Doesn't mean Luna had to be smacked with the news of she can't be among the living after being back from the moon since a few years.
She had suffered enough and went through alot of cr***.
Also its not entirely her fault for the NMM mess(and from the looks of it, NMM is basically spawned from her jealously and took over. Luna snapping like that caused that darker persona to take over and cause even more trouble) since I am pretty sure Celestia didn't realize Luna was suffering before it was too late. Pretty much both sisters screwed up big time rather than Luna alone.
In fact the 1000 years thing would be even worse since Luna essentially lost a 1000 years of being able to experience life and not have long to live.  She doesn't deserve to suffer like that though. Its too much of a punishment honestly.


 

 

I agree, from lunas perspective retirement is the much better option. Still, luna decided to take over before she turned into NM so it doesn't excuse her crime, and considering luna made herself suffer for years after she returned and what she said in S5 E13 it implies what we saw in the flashback in S4 premier is not everything that happened regarding what she did. Its a bit tragic but its part of what makes her character so alluring to me.

[nightshroud96 116]

Just now, Rushing cash said:

I agree, from lunas perspective retirement is the much better option. Still, luna decided to take over before she turned into NM so it doesn't excuse her crime, and considering luna made herself suffer for years after she returned and what she said in S5 E13 it implies what we saw in the flashback in S4 premier is not everything that happened regarding what she did. Its a bit tragic but its part of what makes her character so alluring to me.

Pretty much thats the major problem with the original idea there, Luna already suffered enough.
She doesn't deserve with what the leaked idea had in store for her.  She at least deserve to experience life even more and maybe strengening her bond with Celestia and recover more from the tragedies that happened.
The show making her retiring it still iffy to me since she didn't rule for much long since she got back, they could have at least make it into a conflict of Luna being torn between ruling for a 1000 more years to make up for lost time or give all that up to be with Celestia(who would be touched that Luna would decide to choose to give up ruling just for her, leading to a tearful moment)
I feel like they needed more than that flashback, in fact I think the NMM personalty was already influencing her during that which lead to her snapping.
Iirc I think I read somewhere that Faust mentioning that NMM is the result of Luna's jealously/negative emotions all bottled up.
And even I think Jim mentioning that NMM is less of a symbiote(Nightmare Forces) but more of a split personality or something. Not sure where that twitter post is though.
Basically the darkness within her heart became a split personality due to Luna kept it all underwraps.
In fact I wished they touched more on NMM in general and the potential with Luna's darker self.
No, not how the comics went "oh, she got possessed by some outside entity due to her negative emotions".(I liked the Nightmare Rarity arc but that bit there is whats messing it up for me. At least say the Nightmare Forces were spawned from Luna one way or another. One change there and I would have love that arc to death)

[Rushing cash 824]

11 minutes ago, nightshroud96 said:

Pretty much thats the major problem with the original idea there, Luna already suffered enough.
She doesn't deserve with what the leaked idea had in store for her.  She at least deserve to experience life even more and maybe strengening her bond with Celestia and recover more from the tragedies that happened.
The show making her retiring it still iffy to me since she didn't rule for much long since she got back, they could have at least make it into a conflict of Luna being torn between ruling for a 1000 more years to make up for lost time or give all that up to be with Celestia(who would be touched that Luna would decide to choose to give up ruling just for her, leading to a tearful moment)
I feel like they needed more than that flashback, in fact I think the NMM personalty was already influencing her during that which lead to her snapping.
Iirc I think I read somewhere that Faust mentioning that NMM is the result of Luna's jealously/negative emotions all bottled up.
And even I think Jim mentioning that NMM is less of a symbiote(Nightmare Forces) but more of a split personality or something. Not sure where that twitter post is though.
Basically the darkness within her heart became a split personality due to Luna kept it all underwraps.
In fact I wished they touched more on NMM in general and the potential with Luna's darker self.
No, not how the comics went "oh, she got possessed by some outside entity due to her negative emotions".(I liked the Nightmare Rarity arc but that bit there is whats messing it up for me. At least say the Nightmare Forces were spawned from Luna one way or another. One change there and I would have love that arc to death)

I agree, they should have touched more about her connection to NM, and the explanation in the comics is very bad in my opinion, they just made that mirror to what happened with stygion, I always though that NM was a split personality that magically emerged from lunas pent up feeling(a royal problem showed that the same can happen to celestia) and once she crossed the line that personality took control, and once that the elements were used by the main 6 they destroyed that personality and freeing a powerless luna, who was stripped from her powers for a while. Yes Jim did mention it once as well, so it just kinda confirmed my theory. In the season 9 premier the sisters mentioned that they came to the decision together so maybe this moment happened off screen.

Edited January 17, 2020 by Rushing cash

[nightshroud96 116]

1 minute ago, Rushing cash said:

I agree, they should have touched more about her connection to NM, and the explanation in the comics is very bad in my opinion, they just made that mirror to what happened with stygion, I always though that NM was a split personality that magically emerged from lunas pent up feeling and once she crossed the line that personality took control, and once that the elements were used by the main 6 they destroyed that personality and freeing a powerless luna, who was stripped from her powers for a while. Yes Jim did mention it once as well, so it just kinda confirmed my theory. In the season 9 premier the sisters mentioned that they came to the decision together so maybe this moment happened off screen.

Really it pretty much bothers me that it happened off-screen.
Wished things could have gone differently honestly. Like a compromise on how Luna can still be with Celestia after she retires but also still on the throne to make up for the 1000 years she lost.
Or at least not give up being the dream guardian and raising the moon part.  They could have let the sisters keep the job of raising and lowering the sun and moon.
As for NMM, I wished they say Luna was meant to have dark powers(like Celestia representing Light, Luna representing Darkness. Balance stuff).
Maybe they say NMM still exists within her no matter how many magic friendship rainbows of doom at her and can still return(in fact I remember Faust saying Luna can turn back into NMM if she is consumed with negative emotions like jealously again).
Maybe conflicts like NMM's voice speaking to her at dire times and Luna trying to resist giving in. Eventually through stuff she ends up persuading NMM to help her and accepting NMM in the process, allowing her to use these dark powers and show how darkness isn't ALWAYS evil.
Maybe even exploring NMM's personality more than she's just laughing evilly and trying to bring eternal night.

I can see Daybreaker can spawn from Celestia's guilt from what happened to Luna and also her pent up emotions.
To me, Celestia gives off the feel that she is bottling things up too. Like she is keeping up this "majestic royalty" mask she has to keep up.

 

[Rushing cash 824]

20 minutes ago, nightshroud96 said:

Wished things could have gone differently honestly. Like a compromise on how Luna can still be with Celestia after she retires but also still on the throne to make up for the 1000 years she lost.

Guess we have different views on this, Maybe she still can patrol dreams even after stepping down.

 

20 minutes ago, nightshroud96 said:

Maybe they say NMM still exists within her no matter how many magic friendship rainbows of doom at her and can still return(in fact I remember Faust saying Luna can turn back into NMM if she is consumed with negative emotions like jealously again).
Maybe conflicts like NMM's voice speaking to her at dire times and Luna trying to resist giving in. Eventually through stuff she ends up persuading NMM to help her and accepting NMM in the process, allowing her to use these dark powers and show how darkness isn't ALWAYS evil.
Maybe even exploring NMM's personality more than she's just laughing evilly and trying to bring eternal night.

I don't think it exists, it may return but its not an active personality now and can't communicate with luna just like that(at least thats my take on it) and never could, when luna was trapped and under NMM "control" she was aware what happens but it felt more like a dream to her. I would have liked if they explored NMMs personality more, while she is clearly evil she is certeinly not the worst villain in the show, in her alternate universe(s5 finale) her subject had pretty alright lives, while they were clearly more aggressive and nasty(rarity was pretty speciest, it seems NMM doesn't encourage interaction with other species) they were not stored as food for changelings or brainwashed and enslaved by sombra, we know that she seeks adoration from her subjects, and while she forces this on them she still wants subjects who will serve her(and maybe she still hopes that they will love her) she doesn't want to hurt them(thats why I also think she didn't out right tried to kill the main 6, or at least tried to make it look more like an accident) unless they really oppose her, like celestia. 

Edited January 17, 2020 by Rushing cash

[Rushing cash 824]

20 minutes ago, nightshroud96 said:

I can see Daybreaker can spawn from Celestia's guilt from what happened to Luna and also her pent up emotions.
To me, Celestia gives off the feel that she is bottling things up too. Like she is keeping up this "majestic royalty" mask she has to keep up.

Daybreaker is more like what happened if celestia let her ego and pride consume her(she says that why should she share power while she can take it all herself), unlike the more moody NMM, DB is more joyful, upbeat and sassy   

[nightshroud96 116]

2 minutes ago, Rushing cash said:

.

 

I don't think it exists, it may return but its not an active personality now and can't communicate with luna just like that(at least thats my take on it) and never could, when luna was trapped and under NMM "control" she was aware what happens but it felt more like a dream to her. I would have liked if they explored NMMs personality more, while she is clearly evil she is certeinly not the worst villain in the show, in her alternate universe(s5 finale) her subject had pretty alright lives, while they were clearly more aggressive and nasty(rarity was pretty speciest, it seems NMM doesn't encourage interaction with other species) they were not stored as food for changelings or brainwashed and enslaved by sombra, we know that she seeks adoration from her subjects, and while she forces this on them she still wants subjects who will serve her(and maybe she still hopes that they will love her) she doesn't want to hurt them(thats why I also think she didn't out right tried to kill the main 6, or at least tried to make it look more like an accident) unless they really oppose her, like celestia. 

They could just say the Elements can't destroy the personality but only lock it away within Luna's mind.
It looked more like NMM was "passively" controlling her and when that got locked away, Luna ended up realizing what she had done and was consumed with guilty and remorseful.
In fact that might be a side-effect of the Elements if NMM returns, she is now a full split personality.
Would be a interesting plotline and show how light and darkness must co-exist, not at each others' throats and rejecting each other all the time.
Rather than running away and rejecting the darkness's existence, one must face it and accept its existence and determine one's future.
It would have been so interesting instead of just "light is always good, darkness is always evil" stuff.

I would love to see more of NMM's personality showing maybe she "cares" for Luna if the two interacted for real, since NMM was spawned from Luna's pain/sadness and jealously and her desire to be loved and accepted. Stuff like that.

From the looks of the alternate future it does show life flourishing normally, she most likely thought things through since she wanted the night to last forever so she and her night would get the same amount of love Celestia and her day had gotten. It would be redundant if her night ends up causing suffering and death to the subjects, so I liked how she wanted to bring darkness for not because "just evulz" but she wanted said darkness to be loved equally as the light(day).
I can see while NMM doesn't want to kill her potential adoring subjects and wanted acceptance from them, she would show no mercy to the threats that would endanger her citizens.
I can just see many of the villains(like Tirek) that do popped up during the few years since she came back, they end up meeting terrible fates for threatening her subjects.

11 minutes ago, Rushing cash said:

Daybreaker is more like what happened if celestia let her ego and pride consume her(she says that why should she share power while she can take it all herself), unlike the more moody NMM, DB is more joyful, upbeat and sassy   

I can see if Daybreaker happened for real than just being someone's hallucination/nightmare, she might be a mix of both that joyful/upbeat/sassy personality(showing how its Celestia's inner self going wild. Like her wild side is unleashed and not caring how "un-princess" it is) and that like a powerful force of anger and fury. Like all her bottled up anger and negative emotions unleashed and wanting to burn everything and also embodying RAW power that is let loose onto the world.

In fact it would be interesting if Daybreaker already exists within Celestia due to her guilt from what happened to Luna and the stress of ruling a 1000 years alone, but is essentially her own Tantabus at the moment. Berating and insulting her  deep within her mind for her shortcomings and failures.
Would have been an interesting plotline.

Maybe even Grogar(the real one) popping up and using this to his advantage

[Rushing cash 824]

14 minutes ago, nightshroud96 said:

I can see while NMM doesn't want to kill her potential adoring subjects and wanted acceptance from them, she would show no mercy to the threats that would endanger her citizens.

Endanger her citizens and her rule, she wants to rule equestria alone, she wants to be their GODDESS, she will destroy other enemies as fast and as quickly as possible so they can't become stronger and threaten her rule, thats what makes her antagonistic, that she wants to be the sole focus of her subjects, she wants their world to revolve only around her.

 

18 minutes ago, nightshroud96 said:

From the looks of the alternate future it does show life flourishing normally, she most likely thought things through since she wanted the night to last forever so she and her night would get the same amount of love Celestia and her day had gotten. It would be redundant if her night ends up causing suffering and death to the subjects, so I liked how she wanted to bring darkness for not because "just evulz" but she wanted said darkness to be loved equally as the light(day).

  Its equestria, I am pretty sure they can live without day or night, it just makes life better for them. She wouldn't raise the sun because it will take adoration from her night, as NMM, she doesn't want to be as loved as celestia, but more than her.

24 minutes ago, nightshroud96 said:

I can see if Daybreaker happened for real than just being someone's hallucination/nightmare, she might be a mix of both that joyful/upbeat/sassy personality(showing how its Celestia's inner self going wild. Like her wild side is unleashed and not caring how "un-princess" it is) and that like a powerful force of anger and fury. Like all her bottled up anger and negative emotions unleashed and wanting to burn everything and also embodying RAW power that is let loose onto the world.

Daybreaker is pretty much celestia says "screw them", she doesn't seek adoration but only power and control. While it was a very cool concept but character wise its a good thing they didn't turn celestia evil.

[RulesofRarity 489]

Still terrible and retroactively ruins the primary story of the season. 

[ChB 18,532]

On 12/20/2019 at 3:23 PM, VG_Addict said:

Now that we've had time to take in the finale, how do you feel about the Grogar twist?

I still say it's one of the worst decisions the writing staff has made for the show. Even if you don't think Grogar was interesting, Discord's plan was completely stupid. He brings Equestria's biggest threats together and makes them get a super-powerful weapon just to test Twilight? And he seriously doesn't expect them to turn on him? It also means Discord was responsible for every bad thing that happened in S9.

Any way I look at it, this is bad writing. How did nobody on the writing staff look at this and realize, "Wait, this is a TERRIBLE idea!"?

Thank you! 100% agree. Would have rather had a cliché "final boss" ending than that. 

[Rushing cash 824]

I still think it was a pretty good twist, and how they subtly hinted at it during the season. Discord have a tendancy not to think things through sometimes. Like letting the main 6 have the elements in season 2, helping tirek in season 4, letting his feelings cloud his judgment a few times. The plan is stupid, but its chaotic, I always thought that he should be viewed as an anti-hero or more neutral character and its the closest thing we got to it since season 4, so regarding discord I am very satisfied with this twist. 

[IronM17 5,145]

On the one side, it was the biggest "What the hell" moment they made in the show for me personal, but on the other side, it was also one of the worst decisions they made. When Grogar was introduced, I was happy to see a character who have the potential the be a great enemy for the end of the show. I was really upset at the moment when it turns out he is Discord. Besides this, that gave me another bad view on Discord (he was really great at the beginning of the show an became at least for me more and more anoying with the episodes). I mean, he had a really stupid and also dangerous plan and didn't even got any punishment for this. This is just one of a lot of reasopns why I really don't like the finale. 

[ZiggWheelsManning 7,297]

Worst thing ever.  Seth MacFarlane and the Family Guy writers would have done better. 

[Hierok 11,829]

On 2/15/2020 at 7:42 AM, ZiggWheelsManning said:

Worst thing ever.  Seth MacFarlane and the Family Guy writers would have done better. 

The only thing that wasn't done right was making it rushed. It was a good idea from the writers, but they should have took their time.

[CozyGlower 1]

The comments and some replies in this thread irritated me SO MUCH that I had to make a whole account just to reply. So yeah, sorry for reviving this. 

 

So people are defending/letting this absolute clusterfuck of a twist go by because... "Discord is gonna break the plot and this is the only way to restrain him!"

Like really. Really. REALLY. REAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLY??

Oh my, it isn't like writers are literally PAID to think CREATIVELY to come up with literally ANOTHER just ONE other plotline? hence why this job in their career resume is named "creative writer"? It isn't like the Human Brain is limited in thinking to the point it goes like "nah, its only option A or B. I to come up with nothing more."

Yo, remember when M. A. Larson took that random third scene in the first ever episode and was like "Why don't we make a a whole concept out of that." and we ended up getting arguably an episode we can call "all time best" (S5E12)...?

Yeah, I remember when creativity meant something.