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Is Spike's hero status in the Crystal Empire deserved?


CastletonSnob

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10 hours ago, CameoShadowness said:

Because that is literally how you define a hero! By what they do. Even if he is in no danger HIMSELF, he is going out of his way to help others.

Are caretakers heroes?

10 hours ago, CameoShadowness said:

OMFG are you kidding me? You mean those black crystal spikes shooting from the ground at him and possibly trapping him like Twilight is "no clear danger"? Even right before that, him possibly being stuck in a perpetual nightmare due to King Sombra's curse is not a clear danger? What kind of stupidity is that? First of all, not all concerned creatures act the same, some run for their lives, some hide away- we even see this happen in the show. In the end, he still put in the effort to save people.

That would mean that all faceless "walking simulator" characters of horror games are heroes.

10 hours ago, CameoShadowness said:

This has nothing to do with the FEAR of being a hero, this is about ACKNOWLEDGING someone for their heroism! Not only does he view himself as a hero- literally the entire Crystal Empire does as well.

See above

10 hours ago, CameoShadowness said:

 

Oh and this one kills me BECAUSE ITS WHAT SPIKE DOES!

In fact it's what ALL OF THE MANE SIX DO!! SO YOUR NEXT STATEMENT IS BEYOND CONTRADICTORY

They DO risk their lives! They ARE in real danger in their world! What nonsense are you spewing? Seriously? Do you not pay attention to your contractions? They could have died facing Nightmare Moon or other villains, Spike could have died taking the Crystal Heart- he could have became a slave, he could have gotten hurt in so many ways, he openly risks his life to help others but you casually ignore this EVEN THOUGH IT IS PART OF YOUR DEFINITION OF A HERO.

Now, now, there's no need for allcaps screeching. If this little word tussle is too much for you, log off and take a few deep breaths.

 

Anyhow, my definition of a hero applies to someone who willingly performs feats of heroism. The problem arises when it comes to the definition of those feats and their relation to the person doing them. Starting with Nightmare Moon, all the struggles were resolved by the intervention of asspull magic. After a while, one cannot expect the viewer to continue believing that the characters are in any sort of danger since the pattern has become painfully clear: no matter what happens, some powerful magic will always come to save them. The closest thing to a hero would be Princess Celestia who stands against villains even though she gets beaten over and over again. Still, one could claim she is aware that the asspull magic will make things right at the end.

 

And as far as Spike's participation in these "trial games" is concerned, see above as mentioned before.

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12 hours ago, Goat-kun said:

Anyhow, my definition of a hero applies to someone who willingly performs feats of heroism. The problem arises when it comes to the definition of those feats and their relation to the person doing them. Starting with Nightmare Moon, all the struggles were resolved by the intervention of asspull magic. After a while, one cannot expect the viewer to continue believing that the characters are in any sort of danger since the pattern has become painfully clear: no matter what happens, some powerful magic will always come to save them. The closest thing to a hero would be Princess Celestia who stands against villains even though she gets beaten over and over again. Still, one could claim she is aware that the asspull magic will make things right at the end.

Using your definition still doesn't change the fact that they're heroes in fact you straight up say it is about them preforming acts of heroism. You're just adding nonsense to demote them. Like i said it's about what they've done, not how hard or not it's for them. You can't say people don't view them not being in danger when they clearly are- on multiple occassions. We've seen them lost, get hurt, fight and lose. Celestia may stick up for people despite always losing, but because she HAS to rely on others saving the day. We know she can see the future, this was already established in the show. How can you claim Celestia as a hero while completely ignoring the genuine struggles and such the other's have been through to save other people? 

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17 hours ago, CameoShadowness said:

Using your definition still doesn't change the fact that they're heroes in fact you straight up say it is about them preforming acts of heroism. You're just adding nonsense to demote them. Like i said it's about what they've done, not how hard or not it's for them. You can't say people don't view them not being in danger when they clearly are- on multiple occassions. We've seen them lost, get hurt, fight and lose. Celestia may stick up for people despite always losing, but because she HAS to rely on others saving the day. We know she can see the future, this was already established in the show. How can you claim Celestia as a hero while completely ignoring the genuine struggles and such the other's have been through to save other people? 

Little Red Riding Hood was in danger. She wasn't a hero. A granny that's stuck in a burning building is also in danger. She is no hero either.

 

That is why I said "the closest thing" and added that final sentence. However, after some deliberation, there is another character that fits the bill even better: Shinning Armor. He decided to charge at Sombrero at the beginning of the two-parter with no "I win" magic buffs. He deserves that statue far more than Spike.

 

Also, when you are saying struggles, are we also talking drowning fat tourists trying to outpace a great white shark? That's a pretty real struggle. It's not very heroic though. See, it's not about losing or getting hurt, but why you are getting to that point.

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32 minutes ago, Goat-kun said:

Little Red Riding Hood was in danger. She wasn't a hero. A granny that's stuck in a burning building is also in danger. She is no hero either.

 

 

 

That is why I said "the closest thing" and added that final sentence. However, after some deliberation, there is another character that fits the bill even better: Shinning Armor. He decided to charge at Sombrero at the beginning of the two-parter with no "I win" magic buffs. He deserves that statue far more than Spike.

 

 

 

Also, when you are saying struggles, are we also talking drowning fat tourists trying to outpace a great white shark? That's a pretty real struggle. It's not very heroic though. See, it's not about losing or getting hurt, but why you are getting to that point.

 

 

How bout this then: What bout all the other times he saved Equestria? There's that one time in season 6 - his friendship with Thorax paved the way for Starlight to complete her mission in the finale, then there's the Movie when he and the Mane 5 saved Twilight which led to all 7 of them stopping the Storm King, and he was part of the final climax in the series finale as a mysterious element of harmony of some sort - so if he didn't deserve the statue then, he sure does now!

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4 hours ago, Goat-kun said:

Little Red Riding Hood was in danger. She wasn't a hero. A granny that's stuck in a burning building is also in danger. She is no hero either.

You're right she nor the granny aren't heroes but they didn't go out of their way to save people. That is the difference you GLADLY IGNORE. Every time the mane six or Spike do something heroic, it isn't for themselves- its to help others.

 

4 hours ago, Goat-kun said:

That is why I said "the closest thing" and added that final sentence. However, after some deliberation, there is another character that fits the bill even better: Shinning Armor. He decided to charge at Sombrero at the beginning of the two-parter with no "I win" magic buffs. He deserves that statue far more than Spike.

Deserves it more- no, deserves the title in general- yes. Spike had saved Equestria/ Crystal Empire in general multiple times and you're just discounting it because "it was easy" when it wasn't. You're ignoring context to each scene and constantly trying to put Spike and the others down for no reason. Yes Shining did step up to Sombra to help the main six and such but Spike helped saved the Empire as well. He saved multitudes of people.

 

4 hours ago, Goat-kun said:

Also, when you are saying struggles, are we also talking drowning fat tourists trying to outpace a great white shark? That's a pretty real struggle. It's not very heroic though. See, it's not about losing or getting hurt, but why you are getting to that point.

NO that isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying things like, fighting against his own fears, standing up to others when things are stacked against him, literally fighting for people's lives- actually going out of his way to help in ways no one else can.

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On 7/27/2020 at 5:34 PM, FlareGun45 said:

How bout this then: What bout all the other times he saved Equestria? There's that one time in season 6 - his friendship with Thorax paved the way for Starlight to complete her mission in the finale, then there's the Movie when he and the Mane 5 saved Twilight which led to all 7 of them stopping the Storm King, and he was part of the final climax in the series finale as a mysterious element of harmony of some sort - so if he didn't deserve the statue then, he sure does now!

How about this: Do you then consider Donald Trump to be a hero? Given what you've said, it's a perfectly legitimate question given his great work on bringing different people  together ;)

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(edited)
Just now, Goat-kun said:

How about this: Do you then consider Donald Trump to be a hero? Given what you've said, it's a perfectly legitimate question given his great work on bringing different people  together ;)

 

If we're comparing a fictional character with a good heart, with a real-life monster, even as a joke, then I guess our conversation is done here

Edited by FlareGun45
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On 7/27/2020 at 5:48 PM, CameoShadowness said:

You're right she nor the granny aren't heroes but they didn't go out of their way to save people. That is the difference you GLADLY IGNORE. Every time the mane six or Spike do something heroic, it isn't for themselves- its to help others.

 

Deserves it more- no, deserves the title in general- yes. Spike had saved Equestria/ Crystal Empire in general multiple times and you're just discounting it because "it was easy" when it wasn't. You're ignoring context to each scene and constantly trying to put Spike and the others down for no reason. Yes Shining did step up to Sombra to help the main six and such but Spike helped saved the Empire as well. He saved multitudes of people.

 

NO that isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying things like, fighting against his own fears, standing up to others when things are stacked against him, literally fighting for people's lives- actually going out of his way to help in ways no one else can.

I'm doing this cause there seems to be a need to completely deconstruct "muh struggle" before we can get to the meat. Someone with thalassophobia going on a night dive is not a hero. They just grew a pair is all :P

 

That's the difference: Shining stepped up to Sombra when he didn't know the outcome. He didn't know what will happen. He didn't know how powerful Sombra is (not much given that he only managed to give Shiny horn herpes). And he did that to protect Mane 6. And he survived while achieving his goal.

 

Mane 6 and Spike were all there ... Helping. So? They managed so save Equestria? Someone who manages to feed the world will also succeed in saving it. That doesn't make him a hero in the traditional sense in the confines of which I am arguing. I would not degrade the actions of such a person, but I would also not call them a hero.

 

Now, Mane 6 have a problem even if one is to say they are great and useful like that agriculture scientist: there always exists an external force that enables them to perform these Equestria-saving feats. Merit is what is missing from Spike and Mane 6. They have never done anything useful without help, not of other creatures, but of power that is beyond plain old power of friendship and cooperation.

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10 hours ago, Goat-kun said:

How about this: Do you then consider Donald Trump to be a hero? Given what you've said, it's a perfectly legitimate question given his great work on bringing different people  together ;)

Donald Trump has never helped people- even to make his image look good, he lied in any way he could. He didn't bring people together- in fact we are even more divided then ever as a nation. Horrible thing to pull up as if the two equate in ANY WAY.

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(edited)
11 hours ago, Goat-kun said:

That's the difference: Shining stepped up to Sombra when he didn't know the outcome. He didn't know what will happen. He didn't know how powerful Sombra is (not much given that he only managed to give Shiny horn herpes). And he did that to protect Mane 6. And he survived while achieving his goal.

And you're acting as if even the Mane six or Spike knew- which they didn't. Again, they didn't know they would win. Things wer getting worst and worst and they weren't even sure how to deal with it- just having vague ideas to help.

 

11 hours ago, Goat-kun said:

Mane 6 and Spike were all there ... Helping. So? They managed so save Equestria? Someone who manages to feed the world will also succeed in saving it. That doesn't make him a hero in the traditional sense in the confines of which I am arguing. I would not degrade the actions of such a person, but I would also not call them a hero.

If someone magages to stop world hunger- yes they are a hero/Yes even in the traditional sense because that achievement is HUGE. Even in delevoped countries there are still starving people- to feed literally everyone will make that person a hero.

 

11 hours ago, Goat-kun said:

Now, Mane 6 have a problem even if one is to say they are great and useful like that agriculture scientist: there always exists an external force that enables them to perform these Equestria-saving feats. Merit is what is missing from Spike and Mane 6. They have never done anything useful without help, not of other creatures, but of power that is beyond plain old power of friendship and cooperation.

That is how heroes in fiction are. By that logic even older traditional heroes like Heracles aren't heroes because he had help from the gods on multiple occasions. Your definition just doesn't add up. It just doesn't make sense- in fact most superheroes PERIOD wouldn't be heroes by that logic.

 

11 hours ago, Goat-kun said:

I'm doing this cause there seems to be a need to completely deconstruct "muh struggle" before we can get to the meat. Someone with thalassophobia going on a night dive is not a hero. They just grew a pair is all :P

Also AGAIN bad example, the person with thalassophia isn't going out their way to save people, they are just going to swim at night. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE. You're trying to make them the same and it DOESN'T WORK.

Edited by CameoShadowness
Little fix up.
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17 hours ago, CameoShadowness said:

And you're acting as if even the Mane six or Spike knew- which they didn't. Again, they didn't know they would win. Things wer getting worst and worst and they weren't even sure how to deal with it- just having vague ideas to help.

If someone magages to stop world hunger- yes they are a hero/Yes even in the traditional sense because that achievement is HUGE. Even in delevoped countries there are still starving people- to feed literally everyone will make that person a hero.

That is how heroes in fiction are. By that logic even older traditional heroes like Heracles aren't heroes because he had help from the gods on multiple occasions. Your definition just doesn't add up. It just doesn't make sense- in fact most superheroes PERIOD wouldn't be heroes by that logic.

Also AGAIN bad example, the person with thalassophia isn't going out their way to save people, they are just going to swim at night. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE. You're trying to make them the same and it DOESN'T WORK.

 

Perhaps Type Moon Astolfo would be a better vessel for my mockery than Donald: he is a good person who can and will perform heroic deeds, but taking it in the ass would not be counted among them, if you catch my drift :P

 

I brought up a phobia cause it is a bad example that demonstrates that distress and struggle do not automatically a hero make. I'm glad that we're on the same page.

 

This just in: scientists of big pharma are heroic! Motive? Doesn't matter. They shall save more lives than Mane 6 ever could :P

 

When it comes to Greek heroes, divine intervention is the least of your problems. Many of them were monsters by modern standards, and the rest were also quite unscrupulous. However, this does grant us yet another opportunity to explore a crucial difference: many a hero is given "superweapons" so that they have a chance to complete their quest. Anyone can be given a power that completes some super dangerous quest for them. You don't need a hero for such power. You just need someone to push the button and delete the evil dark lord after a short yet somewhat scary trip.

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4 hours ago, Goat-kun said:

Perhaps Type Moon Astolfo would be a better vessel for my mockery than Donald: he is a good person who can and will perform heroic deeds, but taking it in the ass would not be counted among them, if you catch my drift :P

 

 

 

I brought up a phobia cause it is a bad example that demonstrates that distress and struggle do not automatically a hero make. I'm glad that we're on the same page.

 

 

 

This just in: scientists of big pharma are heroic! Motive? Doesn't matter. They shall save more lives than Mane 6 ever could :P

 

 

 

When it comes to Greek heroes, divine intervention is the least of your problems. Many of them were monsters by modern standards, and the rest were also quite unscrupulous. However, this does grant us yet another opportunity to explore a crucial difference: many a hero is given "superweapons" so that they have a chance to complete their quest. Anyone can be given a power that completes some super dangerous quest for them. You don't need a hero for such power. You just need someone to push the button and delete the evil dark lord after a short yet somewhat scary trip.

 

What you're saying doesn't add up. You point out going by traditional standards for heroes and when I do- you say they aren't heroes.

 

When I point out WHY you're example doesn't work- you ignore that and just assume we're on the same page, even though it's obvious we're not. I'm talking about the process of going out of ones way to save people's lives and you're comparing it to a fear and assuming it's equivalent- it isn't. Even if you say that that's what you believe you're not acting like it.

 

You are constantly changing things up that just don't add up no matter how much I disprove you by explaining why each of your examples don't work. I'm done with you.

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20 hours ago, CameoShadowness said:

What you're saying doesn't add up. You point out going by traditional standards for heroes and when I do- you say they aren't heroes.

 

When I point out WHY you're example doesn't work- you ignore that and just assume we're on the same page, even though it's obvious we're not. I'm talking about the process of going out of ones way to save people's lives and you're comparing it to a fear and assuming it's equivalent- it isn't. Even if you say that that's what you believe you're not acting like it.

 

You are constantly changing things up that just don't add up no matter how much I disprove you by explaining why each of your examples don't work. I'm done with you.

Someone (Achilles) who pillages, casually trades slaves for bronze tripods, and rage quits Trojan War when his favorite woman slave is taken away can hardly be considered a hero by modern standards. I'm talking about the modern traditional heroes like All Might. Plus ultra!

 

I'm building a case here. These are all important blocks. This is the end result: someone who finds themselves in a scary and/or dangerous place and gets out of said situation by means that can be employed by anyone no matter their physical prowess and/or mental fortitude, even when this is all done in an attempt to save someone else, cannot be considered a hero.

 

Someone who finds themselves in a dangerous place in order to save someone else and gets out of said situation by means that require great physical prowess and/or mental fortitude can be considered a hero.

 

P.S: In front of doors bewitched by Sombra, Twilight and Spike couldn't even snap out of their worst fears by themselves. Not to mention that with the worst fears like those, it really shows how unheroic these characters are.

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