What would you change about the villains?

[Sepul-Coloratura 756]

• Sombra didn’t return at S9.
• Grogar was real.
• Chrysalis didn’t return at The Mean Six.
• Cozy Glow wasn’t a twist villain.
• Discord didn’t do stupid things at A Matter of Principals and S9 premiere/finale.
• Starlight Glimmer gets defeated and never returns.
• Pony Of Shadows didn’t exist.
• Chancellor Neighsay didn’t exist.
• Tempest Shadow had a different childhood story anything other than the one we got. 

[Thrond 3,257]

I would not have had Neighsay contribute to saving the day in the season 8 finale. Let him be dunked on while non-racists do the real work. 

I probably would have had Chrysalis appear a few more times as a comic relief villain, and then finally give in to friendship in the finale because she's just so hungry. Remarkable that she was petty enough to stick with the bad way even after Thorax proved that changelings can live without starving all the time. 

I think I would have toned down Lightning Dust's villainy a bit... I just think that's the least interesting thing they could have done with her. Way more interesting to have her and Rainbow Dash come to a mutual understanding of each other, and to see Lightning Dust mature slightly. That way she could be more than just Evil Rainbow Dash. Plus it might let us see Scootaloo leave Rainbow's shadow at long last. 

The Friendship is Magic villains are relatively simple so I don't mind them. The My Little Pony: The Movie villains are awful but they're so generic that I just see no potential in any of them. The Equestria Girls villains are kinda hit-or-miss; mostly I just don't want them to be so easily forgiven. Principal Cinch, Juniper Montage, and Post Crush are awful though, I'd prefer they were all completely different. 

Wallflower Blush is the only one I would really change, otherwise. She needs a better motive than "I am mad that you ignore me, even though it's because I erase your memories constantly." Kinda hard to sympathize with her in that situation, especially since we like and automatically side with Sunset. 

[BastementSparkle 20,312]

27 minutes ago, AlexanderThrond said:

Wallflower Blush is the only one I would really change, otherwise. She needs a better motive than "I am mad that you ignore me, even though it's because I erase your memories constantly." Kinda hard to sympathize with her in that situation, especially since we like and automatically side with Sunset. 

To be fair to Wallflower, Sunset's empathy powers do show that she was actually ignored even before she found the memory stone. The impression I got was that what the writer's intended was that Sunset was cruel to everyone and that included Wallflower, but everyone else ignores her for the most part. Then suddenly Sunset turns around and becomes a better person and everyone starts to love her, meanwhile Wallflower is still ignored and Sunset never reaches out. All Wallflower sees is the horrible bully that was so cruel to her and everyone else becoming loved while she's still a nobody, and Sunset never apologizes or makes amends to her, so even seeing all this she still thinks of Sunset as that bully who hurt her. Then she finds the memory stone and starts using it to "Fix" things, making her problem worse, but she's so messed up at this point she doesn't even realize she's doing that.

 I actually think it's a good backstory in theory, but the special rushes it and does a horrible job at conveying it.

Edited November 20, 2020 by BastementSparkle

[Thrond 3,257]

7 minutes ago, BastementSparkle said:

To be fair to Wallflower, Sunset's empathy powers do show that she was actually ignored even before she found the memory stone. The impression I got was that what the writer's intended was that Sunset was cruel to everyone and that included Wallflower, but everyone else ignores her for the most part. Then suddenly Sunset turns around and becomes a better person and everyone starts to love her, meanwhile Wallflower is still ignored and Sunset never reaches out. All Wallflower sees is the horrible bully that was so cruel to her and everyone else becoming loved while she's still a nobody, and Sunset never apologizes or makes amends to her, so even seeing all this she still thinks of Sunset as that bully who hurt her. Then she finds the memory stone and starts using it to "Fix" things, making her problem worse, but she's so messed up at this point she doesn't even realize she's doing that.

 I actually think it's a good backstory in theory, but the special rushes it and does a horrible job at conveying it.

I have a difficult time squaring that with the extremely apologetic Sunset of the movies, to be honest, but I guess there are a lot of students at that school, and Sunset has been there for a while. Still, I think that special really makes a muddle of Wallflower’s backstory, and it seems bizarre that Sunset and Wallflower could serve on the same committee and not have positive interactions. 

[BastementSparkle 20,312]

16 minutes ago, AlexanderThrond said:

I have a difficult time squaring that with the extremely apologetic Sunset of the movies, to be honest, but I guess there are a lot of students at that school, and Sunset has been there for a while. Still, I think that special really makes a muddle of Wallflower’s backstory, and it seems bizarre that Sunset and Wallflower could serve on the same committee and not have positive interactions. 

I don't think it was intentional on Sunset's part, more so that Wallflower just "Slipped through the cracks" so to speak. Sunset probably didn't care all that much to remember all the people she was bullying when she was a villain, except for the ones who were a threat or she specifically wanted to use in some way, so I could see her being awful to Wallflower and not caring to remember. Then she turns around and becomes better and tries to make it up to everyone, but if all the other students find Wallflower so forgettable too and Wallflower never calls much attention to herself then I don't think it's too unbelievable that Sunset could miss her without realizing. Them being on the same committee definitely makes it a bit weird though.

 If I were rewriting that, I think I'd just make it much more detailed and clear. Show Sunset bullying Wallflower in flashback, shoving her against lockers and being that generic bully to her from the first movie. Show more explicitly that people often seem to ignore or forget her...they don't dislike her or anything, she just doesn't stand out at all. Then show her seeing Sunset, this person who was so cruel getting to "Redeem" herself, and she get's all of these friends and love Wallflower never had, and Sunset keeps making amends and helping everyone else, but as usual nobody really notices her getting left out. Nothing personal, she's just forgettable as usual. Just make it all very clear so there's no confusion about it all. Also, don't make her part of the yearbook committee.

 

Edited November 20, 2020 by BastementSparkle

[Thrond 3,257]

On 11/20/2020 at 12:01 AM, BastementSparkle said:

I don't think it was intentional on Sunset's part, more so that Wallflower just "Slipped through the cracks" so to speak. Sunset probably didn't care all that much to remember all the people she was bullying when she was a villain, except for the ones who were a threat or she specifically wanted to use in some way, so I could see her being awful to Wallflower and not caring to remember. Then she turns around and becomes better and tries to make it up to everyone, but if all the other students find Wallflower so forgettable too and Wallflower never calls much attention to herself then I don't think it's too unbelievable that Sunset could miss her without realizing. Them being on the same committee definitely makes it a bit weird though.

 If I were rewriting that, I think I'd just make it much more detailed and clear. Show Sunset bullying Wallflower in flashback, shoving her against lockers and being that generic bully to her from the first movie. Show more explicitly that people often seem to ignore or forget her...they don't dislike her or anything, she just doesn't stand out at all. Then show her seeing Sunset, this person who was so cruel getting to "Redeem" herself, and she get's all of these friends and love Wallflower never had, and Sunset keeps making amends and helping everyone else, but as usual nobody really notices her getting left out. Nothing personal, she's just forgettable as usual. Just make it all very clear so there's no confusion about it all. Also, don't make her part of the yearbook committee.

The committee thing really threw me off with that special. At that point Sunset would need to be deliberately ignoring her, which I do not believe would happen. If it weren't for that factor, I would definitely have appreciated having Wallflower's part of that special expanded, especially because I think Sunset's part of it is pretty stale. Wallflower at least has a unique problem, whereas Sunset is just going through the motions of atoning for her past, which I kinda had my fill of after Rainbow Rocks. 

[Props Valroa 26,013]

On 11/20/2020 at 1:11 AM, AlexanderThrond said:

I would not have had Neighsay contribute to saving the day in the season 8 finale. Let him be dunked on while non-racists do the real work. 

I disagree with that because it shows that people can change, and he changed. 

[Thrond 3,257]

9 minutes ago, Califorum said:

I disagree with that because it shows that people can change, and he changed. 

I dunno, I guess having non-ponies literally save his life would have a significant impact on him, but I'm not sure I buy that this would cause him to completely abandon his prejudices. He seemed willing to twist everything else around him to fit his faulty worldview, so why would he completely change his beliefs because of a few individuals in a weird situation? It might just be that I don't find him an interesting character, though; I only really liked him because I liked seeing the mane six stand against racism. 

Edited November 22, 2020 by AlexanderThrond

[Props Valroa 26,013]

2 minutes ago, AlexanderThrond said:

I dunno, I guess having non-ponies literally save his life would have a significant impact on him, but I'm not sure I buy that this would cause him to completely abandon his prejudices. He seemed willing to twist everything else around him to fit his faulty worldview, so why would he completely change his beliefs because of a few individuals in a weird situation? It might just be that I don't find him an interesting character, though; I only really liked him because I liked seeing the mane six stand against racism. 

I don't particularly care about the whole racist part, he was an interesting character. One with understandable goals and concerns I will say, although that weird situation is what caused him to change since...its nothing he experienced before, you know?

[Thrond 3,257]

13 hours ago, Califorum said:

I don't particularly care about the whole racist part, he was an interesting character. One with understandable goals and concerns I will say, 

What I mean is that I find him interesting as a symbol but not really as a character. I don't think there's much to him aside from his prejudices; "nice Neighsay" is not something I care about at all. Not to mention that he pretty much only made wrong choices in the time we saw him, which calls his competence into question. 

While I think he had a point about the mane six being inexperienced, his biases make it hard for me to sympathize with his goals of "protecting" Equestria from "threats." To him, anything outside his idea of a "pure" pony society was a threat. Nothing about that seems reasonable to me. 

13 hours ago, Califorum said:

although that weird situation is what caused him to change since...its nothing he experienced before, you know?

I guess but I can't help but feel that he would find some way to justify it to himself. It seems too easy for him to conclude that the student six are just "the good ones" or something like that. Plus I find that character just a little too close to real-world issues for such a naïve approach, even though I like it in other cases. 

[aoEAF2FBvC0MIo2Q 3,671]

The Pony of Shadows. Aside from the Pillars, nothing new was brought to the table. Plunging Equestria into eternal darkness? We already had Nightmare Moon try that eternal night thing. Couldn't he have summoned monsters at least? Or turn ponies into their most wicked selves?

If anything, the Pony of Shadows turned out to be more amusing than he was threatening. The Tantabus was a more threatening adversary than the Pony of Shadows.

[nightshroud96 116]

On 11/16/2020 at 7:44 AM, Kujamih said:

Celestia is a vilain...

Celestia sure did not think stuff though such as how Luna would get the short end of the stick big time..

[Rumpelstiltskin 45]

The Legion of Doom embrace their friendship and reform at the end of season 9. 

Grogar is real and appears, and hell, maybe he reforms as the Legion's cranky Grandpa figure. 

Discord shows empathy to the Legion of Doom and is the one to intervene before they can be punished. 

The Pony of Shadows has a more threatening voice. 

[They call me Loyalty 1,941]

It is KEY for the villains to have understandable perspectives, to the point the viewer is unsure as to which side is "correct" and who is the "villain" anymore.
In the real world there is no such thing as villians, but a conflict of perspective between mutually ignorant aspects of one informed whole, in the form of the watcher, which is to be led into the understanding of this inexorable truth, by means of the multitudinous experience. This is the cornerstone of creation, fictional or otherwise.

As to the intricacies of how this is achieved, they are irrelevant, as long the principle is maintained in balance. Fail to understand this and the dream is over.

[Props Valroa 26,013]

Just now, They call me Loyalty said:

It is KEY for the villains to have understandable perspectives, to the point the viewer is unsure as to which side is "correct" and who is the "villain" anymore.
In the real world there is no such thing as villians, but a conflict of perspective between mutually ignorant aspects of one informed whole, in the form of the watcher, which is to be led into the understanding of this inexorable truth, by means of the multitudinous experience. This is the cornerstone of creation, fictional or otherwise.

As to the intricacies of how this is achieved, they are irrelevant, as long the principle is maintained in balance. Fail to understand this and the dream is over.

Nightmare Moon was the only one who had that. Chrysalis and Tirek did to some extent.

[ChB 18,532]

Grogar being real would have been more than enough for me, but no, they had to ruin that too.

Edited December 1, 2020 by ChB

[nightshroud96 116]

17 hours ago, Califorum said:

Nightmare Moon was the only one who had that. Chrysalis and Tirek did to some extent.

My thoughts exactly for NMM's case there.
Pretty much she wasn't doing it for "evulz", she just wanted her night to be loved as much, if not more, than the day due to how she suffered and such.
And the timeline thing showed she thought things through with Eternal Night given how she was ruling for a few years and Equestria looked completely fine.
And the fact Celestia wasn't there for her to notice her suffering in time and the ponies of Equestria are guilty too for taking Luna for granted there and overpraising Celestia over her.
Everyone was at fault for Nightmare Moon there, not just Luna alone. The whole mess was a tragedy there pretty much.

[Props Valroa 26,013]

7 minutes ago, nightshroud96 said:

My thoughts exactly for NMM's case there.
Pretty much she wasn't doing it for "evulz", she just wanted her night to be loved as much, if not more, than the day due to how she suffered and such.
And the timeline thing showed she thought things through with Eternal Night given how she was ruling for a few years and Equestria looked completely fine.
And the fact Celestia wasn't there for her to notice her suffering in time and the ponies of Equestria are guilty too for taking Luna for granted there and overpraising Celestia over her.
Everyone was at fault for Nightmare Moon there, not just Luna alone. The whole mess was a tragedy there pretty much.

I mean under her rule things looked...fine. I couldn't say the same for the other villains really. Chrysalis had to feed her hive, and Tirek just wanted to impress his father.

[nightshroud96 116]

8 minutes ago, Califorum said:

I mean under her rule things looked...fine. I couldn't say the same for the other villains really. Chrysalis had to feed her hive, and Tirek just wanted to impress his father.

Most likely give NMM a bunch of years and eventually her bitterness might go away and ends up missing Celestia. 
 

[Props Valroa 26,013]

1 minute ago, nightshroud96 said:

Most likely give NMM a bunch of years and eventually her bitterness might go away and ends up missing Celestia. 
 

I mean without her main 'enemy', what will she do, then? I feel like she would eventually miss her. 

[nightshroud96 116]

4 minutes ago, Califorum said:

I mean without her main 'enemy', what will she do, then? I feel like she would eventually miss her. 

When her night is finally loved and she ruled for some time, she is going to realize she misses Celestia once her the bitterness and jealously in her heart cools down.
Its only a matter of time.   

[Props Valroa 26,013]

2 minutes ago, nightshroud96 said:

When her night is finally loved and she ruled for some time, she is going to realize she misses Celestia once her the bitterness and jealously in her heart cools down.
Its only a matter of time.   

I don't consider her evil at all, really. 

[nightshroud96 116]

3 minutes ago, Califorum said:

I don't consider her evil at all, really. 

Pretty much she snapped and lashed out pretty badly.
The mess there was pretty tragic.

[Props Valroa 26,013]

1 minute ago, nightshroud96 said:

Pretty much she snapped and lashed out pretty badly.
The mess there was pretty tragic.

What you think of Starlight?

[nightshroud96 116]

1 minute ago, Califorum said:

What you think of Starlight?

Her backstory is missing some pieces of info I think.
And she kind of suffered from that due to how fans reacted to her because of it.