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Cutie marks - genes or circumstancial


Sir Hugsalot

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I came up with this thread idea today as I was watching My Little Pony! 

So, as we all know cutie marks are a manifestation of every pony's true talent. The question I ended up asking myself is - are those cutie marks "prewritten" in pony's genes? Basically - their talents are "decided" upon birth and cannot be altered? Or is it the circumstances - upbringing, environment etc that guides ponies towards their call? Or is it a combination of both? 

 

Personally I believe that genes provide ponies with specific personality traits that lead them to pursuit of hobbies and activities that may lead to them earning their cutie mark. So they certainly help pony in finding what their calling may be. But cutie mark is not prewritten - that would likely lead to many ponies ending up as blank flanks for life as they'd fail to fall into specific life situations that can cause their cutie marks to appear.

That's where pony's environment comes into play - genes paved the way, but ultimately pony finds its cutie mark by pursuing its interests. Those interests, when pursued with enough passion can lead to cutie mark appearing. But I believe that every pony could have different cutie marks if something happened in their life differently. So the cutie mark isn't a pre-determined thing, but a manifestation of pony's true talent - one that was discovered through self exploration, not one that was assigned upon birth. 

So, to sum up my opinion - ultimately it's the environment that "decides" the cutie mark while genes are only helping to lead the pony in a specific direction. 

What do You think?

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I think ponies like Diamond Tiara almost objectively suggest that these are predetermined inherent talents that you are going to have from birth, now the counter, I know we have seen Apple Bloom with pseudo cutie marks from a curse, but the fact that the CMC ALL get their cutie mark at the same time either, 1. Suggests that they we're destined to meet, 2. Being each other's friends Influenced some kind of collective cutie marking that was circumstantial based on the friendship, like is it possible all 3 could potentially have gotten different cutie marks had they not met...? Idts

I think in g.5 at least the answer suggests no... Misty doesn't have her cutie mark yet, as an adult mare bc it's rooted in destiny and she is not intended to have it until a later time, ultimately it was destiny to be "found" by Opaline, so that she could eventually meet the Mane 5 in Maretime Bay who I presume will unlock her true talents and give her her cutie mark... If it was circumstantial, surely she has done enough, or done something comprable enough to give her some kind of cutie mark despite looking like a failure in Opalines eyes... It's because even these things that you accomplish (and the CMC did manage to somewhat accomplish varying things circumstantially) yet, they never got a cutie mark trying any of these other things...? It's because their destiny was shown to them clearly when they gave direction to their WORST enemy,

I don't think being good at something determines a cutie mark or Twilight and Applejack would have cutie marks all over their body... It's determined by destiny and what a pony is TRULY intended to do... You see some cutie marks that are vague or open to interpretation like Twilight or Starlight's, some that are based around LITERAL talents, that being said Applejack has many of these singular talents yet her cutie mark is three apples, this may bring more to the "it's genetic theory" hell the WHOLE apple family suggests that to a certain extent, but then there's Apple Bloom who despite having an apple showing in her cutie mark, has a mark that accompanies very specific friendships... 

Let's turn the page to Pinkie Pie just for a minute, all of her family having specifically "rock based cutie marks" yet, hers are party balloons? Well there goes that genetic theory, or do you consider the Rainboom "circumstantial", like would Pinkie just BE Pinkamena without a cutie mark or some weird rock cutie mark had Rainbow not been able to pull off "the boom"? I think the answer is that this hypothetically would have never happened because DESTINY determined that she would be pink and bubbly and fun, and that she would see that rainboom, she was always intended to be Pinkie, not Pinkamena, so going back to Applejack, I think it's just "her families destiny" to feed and supply the ponies and nurture the land of Equestria... 

Ultimately we may be looking to deep into it altogether bc "what talent are snips and a snail" I mean shit shouldn't Snails have a buck ball talent?, or these are figurative and mean things that we dont even understand ourselves entirely...

Edited by Reform Conundrum
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I absolutely adored this discussion because it allowed me to contemplate it. Reminded me of the discussion we had with Bastion in regards to how your personality and destiny is not necessarily tied to your physical body.

For example, Applejack, Rainbow Dash and Twilight are stereotypical to their species and body type. But Rarity, Fluttershy and Pinkie Pie -- are not!

I think it is quite explicitly shown throughout the show that variety and your personality has a greater effect on you rather than what was imposed on you and this I greatly appreciate.

So, I believe it's a mixture of both.

Like in vide games, you have stats and those stats would favor a certain aspect of the gameplay, however, no necessarily bound to them as you can choose and carve your own way.

As for the names... that's also interesting. Sometimes our own names affect how we perceive ourselves. And even society will have its bias, so perhaps it is yet another confirmation of how the pony is molded. Again, absolutely loved this approach and contemplation. And I loved how you dragged me into it when I wasn't even paying attention due to being distracted by other things hahahah

You guys rock!

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I am of the adage that it is a combination of pre-destined things such as family heritage and random chance. In the MLP world there seems to be this consistent theme of destiny (such as the blanket Sunny's dad made and hid in various places that had the Mane 5 on it, how did he know?) - so I think it ties within destiny itself. Other times, it may just simply be a metaphor for a theme or idea the character represents within the world / story. 

As for my own characters, and how I put in RP - it is different for each character. Some characters of mine have direct meanings such as my character Magnolia - her cutie mark being a valiant sword with a laurel of Magnolia flowers on either side. Perhaps her nick-name Magnolia comes from her cutie mark? While my character Gold Lass (also known as Collapse) has a gold ring with 3 indents in it, the cutie mark has no real meaning and is just there for aesthetic reasons.

Spiral Spell, another character of mine, her cutie mark is a stone tower with a white star on top with a spiraling pattern going down the tower and leading to the tower up at the top - symbolic of her personality. 

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1 hour ago, Props said:

I am of the adage that it is a combination of pre-destined things such as family heritage and random chance. In the MLP world there seems to be this consistent theme of destiny (such as the blanket Sunny's dad made and hid in various places that had the Mane 5 on it, how did he know?) 

Well im not here to be cynical because I enjoyed your input but Argyle states in Starscout Code that the blanket had been passed down for ten generations, I get an opposite indication than that he was the creator of the artifact rather a pony that inherited it and passed it down to Sunny... As for him being the one who hid the other sections of the blanket, I don't think that either bc it's suggested this would have had to have been done at a time when ponies were still all at peace, and in Sunnys story in MyM it's suggested all 3 races split apart in distrust, how would Argyle have been able to hide anything in Bridlewood or Zephyr Heights or any Earth Pony for that matter? These are alien territories to them, so in my mind a pegasus and unicorn had to have received different sections of the blanket before the split...

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On 2022-10-01 at 12:47 AM, Reform Conundrum said:

I think ponies like Diamond Tiara almost objectively suggest that these are predetermined inherent talents that you are going to have from birth, now the counter, I know we have seen Apple Bloom with pseudo cutie marks from a curse, but the fact that the CMC ALL get their cutie mark at the same time either, 1. Suggests that they we're destined to meet, 2. Being each other's friends Influenced some kind of collective cutie marking that was circumstantial based on the friendship, like is it possible all 3 could potentially have gotten different cutie marks had they not met...? Idts

I think in g.5 at least the answer suggests no... Misty doesn't have her cutie mark yet, as an adult mare bc it's rooted in destiny and she is not intended to have it until a later time, ultimately it was destiny to be "found" by Opaline, so that she could eventually meet the Mane 5 in Maretime Bay who I presume will unlock her true talents and give her her cutie mark... If it was circumstantial, surely she has done enough, or done something comprable enough to give her some kind of cutie mark despite looking like a failure in Opalines eyes... It's because even these things that you accomplish (and the CMC did manage to somewhat accomplish varying things circumstantially) yet, they never got a cutie mark trying any of these other things...? It's because their destiny was shown to them clearly when they gave direction to their WORST enemy,

I don't think being good at something determines a cutie mark or Twilight and Applejack would have cutie marks all over their body... It's determined by destiny and what a pony is TRULY intended to do... You see some cutie marks that are vague or open to interpretation like Twilight or Starlight's, some that are based around LITERAL talents, that being said Applejack has many of these singular talents yet her cutie mark is three apples, this may bring more to the "it's genetic theory" hell the WHOLE apple family suggests that to a certain extent, but then there's Apple Bloom who despite having an apple showing in her cutie mark, has a mark that accompanies very specific friendships... 

Let's turn the page to Pinkie Pie just for a minute, all of her family having specifically "rock based cutie marks" yet, hers are party balloons? Well there goes that genetic theory, or do you consider the Rainboom "circumstantial", like would Pinkie just BE Pinkamena without a cutie mark or some weird rock cutie mark had Rainbow not been able to pull off "the boom"? I think the answer is that this hypothetically would have never happened because DESTINY determined that she would be pink and bubbly and fun, and that she would see that rainboom, she was always intended to be Pinkie, not Pinkamena, so going back to Applejack, I think it's just "her families destiny" to feed and supply the ponies and nurture the land of Equestria... 

Ultimately we may be looking to deep into it altogether bc "what talent are snips and a snail" I mean shit shouldn't Snails have a buck ball talent?, or these are figurative and mean things that we dont even understand ourselves entirely...

It's interesting that You mention those cutie marks (I assume You mean ones given by Twilight's spell?), because I was thinking about them too and my theory is that they merely relate to Apple Bloom's past experiences, but since these were not significant enough - cutie marks couldn't last and quickly vanished. That further proves Twilight's own statement about how cutie marks can only be earned in one way as truth. You can't cheat Your way to them, You have to earn them by finding Your own calling. 

I haven't reached that part of the show yet, but from what You write so far I am inclined to believe that their cutie marks would've not been related to each other have they not become friends. 

On 2022-10-01 at 1:42 AM, Silky said:

I absolutely adored this discussion because it allowed me to contemplate it. Reminded me of the discussion we had with Bastion in regards to how your personality and destiny is not necessarily tied to your physical body.

For example, Applejack, Rainbow Dash and Twilight are stereotypical to their species and body type. But Rarity, Fluttershy and Pinkie Pie -- are not!

I think it is quite explicitly shown throughout the show that variety and your personality has a greater effect on you rather than what was imposed on you and this I greatly appreciate.

So, I believe it's a mixture of both.

Like in vide games, you have stats and those stats would favor a certain aspect of the gameplay, however, no necessarily bound to them as you can choose and carve your own way.

As for the names... that's also interesting. Sometimes our own names affect how we perceive ourselves. And even society will have its bias, so perhaps it is yet another confirmation of how the pony is molded. Again, absolutely loved this approach and contemplation. And I loved how you dragged me into it when I wasn't even paying attention due to being distracted by other things hahahah

You guys rock!

I like the video games analogy, because it's true. Sometimes even unusual combinations of skills that really go outside certain class's "playstyle" are created and they turn out to be particulary powerful meaning that even if You have for example a priest it doesn't mean they can't be particulary strong in melee. It all comes down to idea and creativity and really is in sync with how ponies can also overcome their assumed limitations and find their real talent elsewhere. 

I am also so happy to see people participating in the thread, it's so amazing to see You here! *hugs* 

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...

You know? I also wondered the same thing about cutie marks: are they decided at birth, or do they depend on the pony's past and how did he/she get into the situation that gave him/her the cutie mark?

And these are my thoughts:

To begin with, I mostly agree that cutie marks only appear after a pony discovers his/her special talent from past activities, and not from genetics. This would make more sense in some ways, and would also open windows of opportunity for interesting experiments!

However, there is just one problem with this idea: in the season 5 finale, you can see that Starlight Glimmer alters the future several times, but the cutie marks of the Mane Six (and pretty much all the other ponies) remain unchanged, even though the life of each pony has been altered very heavily along with the rest of the universe (Starlight, why did you do this to us?). In other words, cutie marks cannot be altered, no matter how hard you try. They're stuck to the pony's body.

This would also explain why did the Cutie Mark Crusaders try so many things, and only got their cutie marks when doing exactly what they were meant to do (helping other ponies with their cutie marks). Maybe the cutie mark of each Crusader didn't want to appear until the Crusader did exactly what they were meant to do her whole life.

So yeah, these are my thoughts of the matter. I like to think that cutie marks can be altered along with the pony's life, because this would make for some great experiments. But it appears that it makes more sense if we take it as if cutie marks were tied to the pony's genetics.

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1 hour ago, LCpony417 said:

You know? I also wondered the same thing about cutie marks: are they decided at birth, or do they depend on the pony's past and how did he/she get into the situation that gave him/her the cutie mark?

And these are my thoughts:

To begin with, I mostly agree that cutie marks only appear after a pony discovers his/her special talent from past activities, and not from genetics. This would make more sense in some ways, and would also open windows of opportunity for interesting experiments!

However, there is just one problem with this idea: in the season 5 finale, you can see that Starlight Glimmer alters the future several times, but the cutie marks of the Mane Six (and pretty much all the other ponies) remain unchanged, even though the life of each pony has been altered very heavily along with the rest of the universe (Starlight, why did you do this to us?). In other words, cutie marks cannot be altered, no matter how hard you try. They're stuck to the pony's body.

This would also explain why did the Cutie Mark Crusaders try so many things, and only got their cutie marks when doing exactly what they were meant to do (helping other ponies with their cutie marks). Maybe the cutie mark of each Crusader didn't want to appear until the Crusader did exactly what they were meant to do her whole life.

So yeah, these are my thoughts of the matter. I like to think that cutie marks can be altered along with the pony's life, because this would make for some great experiments. But it appears that it makes more sense if we take it as if cutie marks were tied to the pony's genetics.

Wow, You made one strong point with the season 5 finale (I haven't seen it, but now I can't wait to get to it!). 

But as a little counterthought to that to stir up the debate, my friend! :rarity:

The question is at which point were the events altered! (here it's actual question as I have no idea D:). 

If the history was changed after Rainbow Dash's sonic rainboom which was how mane 6's cutie marks came to be then the similarity is understandable. After

 

The trick comes if it was the Sonic Rainboom that was "erased". 

In that case I will have to agree with You that at least to some degree genes are involved with cutie mark's appearance. There is a chance that they would end up with the same cutie marks for circumstancial reasons given their natural talents, but while that would be... measurable with only one altered future. Here apparently we discuss about several futures with the very same cutie mark. 

My, my, that's the hard one, You brought up a really powerful argument with season 5 finale alone, but maybe I can find other explanation yet :toldya::laugh: This will take a lot of thinking... and apparently watching too...

Thank You for amazing contribution as always, whenever You post something :rarity:

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12 minutes ago, Sir Spooksalot said:

Wow, You made one strong point with the season 5 finale (I haven't seen it, but now I can't wait to get to it!). 

But as a little counterthought to that to stir up the debate, my friend! :rarity:

The question is at which point were the events altered! (here it's actual question as I have no idea D:). 

If the history was changed after Rainbow Dash's sonic rainboom which was how mane 6's cutie marks came to be then the similarity is understandable. After

 

The trick comes if it was the Sonic Rainboom that was "erased". 

In that case I will have to agree with You that at least to some degree genes are involved with cutie mark's appearance. There is a chance that they would end up with the same cutie marks for circumstancial reasons given their natural talents, but while that would be... measurable with only one altered future. Here apparently we discuss about several futures with the very same cutie mark. 

My, my, that's the hard one, You brought up a really powerful argument with season 5 finale alone, but maybe I can find other explanation yet :toldya::laugh: This will take a lot of thinking... and apparently watching too...

Thank You for amazing contribution as always, whenever You post something :rarity:

 

You're welcome! Like I said, if you put me in any kind of situation, then I can make things very interesting!

Yes, in the season 5 finale, Starlight Glimmer blocks Rainbow Dash from flying, which also stops the rainboom. She does this several times, but you can only see what is happening to the young Mane Six the very first time she stops the rainboom. Whenever the rainboom is stopped, Twilight and Spike will end up in one of the many altered futures.

However, I don't want to spoil the finale for you. So, I'll let you find out more about it when you get it. In the meantime, can you tell me what episode are you at?

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15 minutes ago, LCpony417 said:

 

You're welcome! Like I said, if you put me in any kind of situation, then I can make things very interesting!

Yes, in the season 5 finale, Starlight Glimmer blocks Rainbow Dash from flying, which also stops the rainboom. She does this several times, but you can only see what is happening to the young Mane Six the very first time she stops the rainboom. Whenever the rainboom is stopped, Twilight and Spike will end up in one of the many altered futures.

However, I don't want to spoil the finale for you. So, I'll let you find out more about it when you get it. In the meantime, can you tell me what episode are you at?

And that definitely is true! :squee:

I am still on season 1! D: That's a long way ahead :laugh:I can't wait!

There is a possibility of them being a more isolated case though. As we know mane 6 are elements of harmony which makes them bound to each other since birth - in fact - before they even knew of each other. 

Maybe that's why their cutie marks remained the same? Because, while Rainbow Dash's rainboom got stopped something else happened that still made them find their cutie marks together due to special bond they share? 

That would allow them to keep same cutie marks while altering the rest of events leading to various futures with only one thing remaining the same - mane 6's cutie marks.

It's just a theory for now and its correctness depends on if other ponies have same cutie marks or not. If they have the same cutie marks as well then my theory goes through the window :laugh:

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Season 1 sure has some fun ideas about how Cutie Marks work. As Episode 12 came out, there were a lot of talk about tattoos. I'll never forget about the Australian 45 year old male YouTuber/Brony who defended G4 with his life, but couldn't defend the tattoo situation...

Oh, yea, the Cutie Marks... Oh no.... I still was waiting for CMC to get their real Cutie Marks in Season 1 and then Season 2. They were soooo close!
We really have to jump into Season 5 to truly understand Cutie Marks though. They kinda changed meaning there. I would have been fine with Season 1 tattoos, which is kinda what we have in G5, but one on each pony, to save money!

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30 minutes ago, Sir Spooksalot said:

And that definitely is true! :squee:

I am still on season 1! D: That's a long way ahead :laugh:I can't wait!

There is a possibility of them being a more isolated case though. As we know mane 6 are elements of harmony which makes them bound to each other since birth - in fact - before they even knew of each other. 

Maybe that's why their cutie marks remained the same? Because, while Rainbow Dash's rainboom got stopped something else happened that still made them find their cutie marks together due to special bond they share? 

That would allow them to keep same cutie marks while altering the rest of events leading to various futures with only one thing remaining the same - mane 6's cutie marks.

It's just a theory for now and its correctness depends on if other ponies have same cutie marks or not. If they have the same cutie marks as well then my theory goes through the window :laugh:

 

You're still on season 1? Oh my, then you really have no idea what an amazing story are you going to see!

But I'm not gonna spoil any of it to you. I want you to enjoy every second of every episode!

For your interest, I just watched the 24th episode of season 1 today.

 

You know? I recently came up with another theory regarding to the elements of harmony.

To begin with, you'll see later in the show that the elements of harmony were actually created by some ponies from the past (I know who they are, but I won't tell you because I don't want to spoil it). So, my theory says that maybe the elements of harmony were "programmed" in such a way that they get connected to ponies that represent them once they meet each-other.

For exemple, Applejack is a very honest pony. So, when she came in contact with the element of honesty, she became permanently connected to it. Same with all other ponies.

Eventually, many other events happened to the elements of harmony later in the show. But these events would make a lot of sense if we believe in the theory that the elements of harmony were "programmed" to have specific properties for specific ponies, and weren't just tied to the Mane Six ever since they were born.

Basically, this is my theory according to which the elements of harmony have specific properties and aren't just connected specifically to the Mane Six.

Now that we have this theory, we no longer have to worry about the elements of harmony, as they have nothing to do with the young Mane Six. Of course, we can still bring them back in the context if we need to, but for now, there is no need. So, don't worry if the elements of harmony could affect or even ruin the theory about cutie marks! This won't happen (as long as my theory is valid)!

 

Oh, and I forgot to mention one thing: just letting you know, the Cutie Mark Crusaders get their cutie marks in season 5. So yeah, there is quite a lot of information that you'll go through watching MLP!

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19 hours ago, LCpony417 said:

 

You're still on season 1? Oh my, then you really have no idea what an amazing story are you going to see!

But I'm not gonna spoil any of it to you. I want you to enjoy every second of every episode!

For your interest, I just watched the 24th episode of season 1 today.

 

You know? I recently came up with another theory regarding to the elements of harmony.

To begin with, you'll see later in the show that the elements of harmony were actually created by some ponies from the past (I know who they are, but I won't tell you because I don't want to spoil it). So, my theory says that maybe the elements of harmony were "programmed" in such a way that they get connected to ponies that represent them once they meet each-other.

For exemple, Applejack is a very honest pony. So, when she came in contact with the element of honesty, she became permanently connected to it. Same with all other ponies.

Eventually, many other events happened to the elements of harmony later in the show. But these events would make a lot of sense if we believe in the theory that the elements of harmony were "programmed" to have specific properties for specific ponies, and weren't just tied to the Mane Six ever since they were born.

Basically, this is my theory according to which the elements of harmony have specific properties and aren't just connected specifically to the Mane Six.

Now that we have this theory, we no longer have to worry about the elements of harmony, as they have nothing to do with the young Mane Six. Of course, we can still bring them back in the context if we need to, but for now, there is no need. So, don't worry if the elements of harmony could affect or even ruin the theory about cutie marks! This won't happen (as long as my theory is valid)!

 

Oh, and I forgot to mention one thing: just letting you know, the Cutie Mark Crusaders get their cutie marks in season 5. So yeah, there is quite a lot of information that you'll go through watching MLP!

I did reach season 3 or 4 before and I also saw first 2 episodes of season 5 so I am not that far away. I am only rewatching entire series all the way from the beginning with friends :rarity:

Your theory does make sense :fluttershy: Honestly though, as much as I try to add something I think that to discuss this I need to first reach related episodes so for now I can only agree ;-; I can't wait to see episodes needed though!

And I definitely can't wait for CMC to get their cutie marks :yay:

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56 minutes ago, Sir Spooksalot said:

I did reach season 3 or 4 before and I also saw first 2 episodes of season 5 so I am not that far away. I am only rewatching entire series all the way from the beginning with friends :rarity:

Oh, alright then! I thought you didn't see any of the episodes after season 1.

 

56 minutes ago, Sir Spooksalot said:

Your theory does make sense :fluttershy: Honestly though, as much as I try to add something I think that to discuss this I need to first reach related episodes so for now I can only agree ;-; I can't wait to see episodes needed though!

Yeah. You'll definetely have to reach episodes where the elements of harmony go through major events. For your interest, season 4 is one of the seasons where the elements of harmony, along with other things, suffer from major changes and show off their cool properties. So yeah, you'll definetely have to reach over there!

 

59 minutes ago, Sir Spooksalot said:

And I definitely can't wait for CMC to get their cutie marks :yay:

Yay! You'll definetely love that one episode. Because in my opinion, that episode was epic! But for now, all I can tell you is that this episode is in season 5. So, yeah!

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