Starlight Glimmer - How NOT to write a character

[Ring Team 119]

This is going to be rough.

This topic has been on my head for many years. Trying to discuss it in the fandom is like stepping on a minefield. But we can’t ignore it forever. I don't think I'm gonna get friends with this, but I also think it’s time to discuss it and got it over with. I’ve come close to talk about Starlight several times in this forum. I’ve planned to discuss it in a specific thread, but, by the time I finished watching the show (which was 2021), pretty much everything has already been said.

I originally planned to write this for my blog, but I have to finish another entry to complete something because it was a second part of a list. Once I finish it, then I'll make it an entry. This post is not only about how not to write a new character in an already established popular show, but also what we can learn from it in the future.

There are a lot of other beloved characters in the animation industry. Woody and Buzz, Steven Universe, Lapislazuli, Elsa and Anna… so, if the industry ever decides to develop them the way they did with Starlight, how can they do it better?

Before we get to her, we should talk a little bit about the person who was chosen to bring Starlight personality. Josh haber is the writer of Friendship Games and the writer of the season 5 finale, where, after 7 months of silence on Starlight, he finally took his time to develop a character by doing the bare minimum.

Honestly, he’s not the best writer to approach someone like Starlight Glimmer. He never made a serious attempt when writing stories about redemption, and the inexperience shows in Starlight. Now, everyone said it a thousand times in the Internet, but the question then is: Why did it happen in the first place? Who, at Hasbro, decided that this was exactly what the show needed?

Let’s start by talking about her most noticeable character feature: Her power. Starlight Glimmer is by far the most powerful character in the show. In the two parts of Cutie Map, Starlight has proven to control many ponies at the same time and, with concerning ease, she can take away the cutie marks, as it’s nothing, completely rewriting the established rules and lore about cutie marks. If that power came from a dark amulet like in Magic Duel from season 3, the story would be fine, but the problem is that Starlight can do that, on her own, and that’s a problem. It severely invalidates the personal aspect and the point of having a cutie mark the way it was established in season 1. When you have a talent, you perfected it and you make a living with your own talent and effort, that doesn’t matter anyway because Starlight is gonna take that away from you whenever she wants and however she wants. And I think it shouldn’t have been this way. It’s like painting the face of God. Better yet, it’s like playing God. You shouldn’t give that amount of power to one single character.

It also didn’t make sense that, for someone who’s supposed to become an integral part of the show, she only got 2 episodes out of 26 in the fifth season. When “Make New Friends but Keep Discord” came out and it ended with the main characters in a party, I was one of the few people who asked “shouldn’t they be chasing Starlight? She might cause more problems”. Keep in mind that the first episode ended with Starlight running away, which presented a perfect excuse for Twilight and her friends to go after her. It’s not an impossible idea. Back then, a couple of people answered me (in a very condescending sassy way, I must add) that “we can have other types of episodes, they can make later another episode of Starlight, this is a slice of life TV show”. And I’d agree if it wasn’t for the fact that we never got an episode about Starlight until the very end.

And, even if she came back in the end, her reasons why she’s evil are shockingly irrational, let alone for a character who’s supposed to be important. It turns out that the main reason why Starlight was manipulating, brainwashing many towns and many innocent ponies and swapping and extracting cutie marks like she was God… was because her best friend moved away when she was a kid.

You can't say that without laughing a bit.

The episode doesn’t share her motivations in detail, it doesn’t fully explore the relationship between Starlight and Sunburst, it doesn’t show any kind of progression, nothing. She’s just evil because her friend moved away. And Twilight, who has no reason to empathize with her, convinced her she can change for the better and Starlight, in the blink of an eye, changes her mind, just like that.

This is a lot to buy in very short minutes. This finale isn’t convicing because, for so much anticipation, we got an ending that seems to be written in one hour, maybe even less time. It also severely limits not only Starlight’s caracterization, but also Twilight’s personality for not being as harsh with her as she would have been in the hands of a competent writer.

This plan was doomed to fail for many reasons:

1. Out of the 26 episodes season 5 has, Starlight only has a major role in 2.

2. Starlight doesn’t have a very strong defined presence in these 2 episodes.

3. The stakes were so nebulous that it’s hard to be engaged with Cutie remark, especially if you know how it ends.

4. The reasons why Starlight was a villain are stupid, ridiculous and too irrational to empathize with her.

Speaking of which, 5. Twilight has no reason to empathize with Starlight.

6. Her being a new main character doesn’t add much to the show. She’s a solution to a non-existing problem.

7. She ends up being a hypocrite many many episodes later for a very long time. We'll get to that later.

This would have been easy to overcome with something as simple as giving her 6 episodes in season 5 rather than 2. That way, Twilight would get to know her past, where she came from, who her best friend is, who her parents are, what type of pony she was, etc. Imagine someone like a manipulative mother who controlled Starlight’s life to the point where she became deranged when she was a child. She would say “manipulating others is how you’ll be successful in life”, and that would have severely affected her view of the world and it would explain why she’s manipulating a lot. And instead of giving her too much power, she could have been a unicorn with no magic but owns a dark amulet that allows her to manipulate cutie marks. That would work better because you don’t sacrifice the information and the context you’ve presented to the audience in the past.

My point is that any person with any basis of rationality could plug in logical things we’ve seen in another stories to make this somewhat coherent. Even the most inept film student would get a good grade by remaking this script, because what I’m suggesting is so easy.

Let us actually hear and see the connection she has with everyone. Her parents, her friend, her other friends, her town, her teachers, etc. Having 6 episodes with stories that fill these gaps will develop her character even more than the final result we got.

If you want to introduce a new character to an already established series, work VERY HARD to get it right and make sure to anticipate any kind of mistake just to avoid them in the future. Giving her so much power and the motivation of someone moving away are not gonna cut it.

I really don’t know what happened in the creative process of that episode. I can make guesses, but with no intention to blame to any writer or producer, I think back when season 5 was in the making, Rainbow Rocks was released, many people love it and the fans popularized a very common request since 2013: "Put Sunset Shimmer in the TV show". So, in a very rushed result, Starlight would have been considered as the new seventh main character of the show. Or maybe the writers and the team were too confident with Starlight's character arc. Maybe there were too many yes-men. Maybe things were different before considering her a new main character. The most logical guess I can make is that it could have been just a scheduling and pipeline problem.

I wasn’t there to see what actually happened, but it seems more plausible to me than the idea of someone saying in the pipeline phase of season 5: “Hey, why don’t you take a crack and say that Starlight started a cult because her friend moved away and make Twilight forgiving her too fast without developing her character in the entire season?”.

So, quick tip for those who want to write character-driven stories: Use caution when setting up your team structure and establishing project goals. You don’t wanna get yourself stuck in a scenario that forces you to attempt things your story isn’t particularly strong at.

Now let’s talk about her approach since season 6. While her re-introduction wasn’t bad, it was very boring and uninspiring after 5 minutes, because we got a Starlight being socially awkward while she’s learning about friendship, like Twilight in the early seasons, which doesn’t make sense because she managed to convince the filly Rainbow Dash to not trust Twilight back in Cutie Re-mark. This doesn’t make sense for a unicorn that was able to manipulate an entire town and get respect from everyone in Cutie Map. And, like Sunset Shimmer from Rainbow Rocks, the moments where she appears is because someone has to make a joke about her past. She even repeats that information in many episodes, just in case you forgot the first time you heard it. But even so, it's hard to like her when she has moments like forcing Big Macintosh to talk to her with quotes like "I can't be friends with somepony who doesn't talk". Why would you love a character that says things like this?

Then there’s the elephant in the room, Every little thing she does. After seeing some episodes in season 6 that suggested a change for the better in Starlight (like A Hearth’s Warming tail), we got an episode where Starlight, for no reason, decided to go back manipulating Twilight’s friends, even after she was forgiven back in Cutie Remark. Her will to finish her friendship homework as quick as possible doesn’t fit with her desire of redemption. It also doesn’t make sense that a unicorn that was able to manipulate an entire town now is clumsy at doing that.

You could argue that she got redeemed because of the season 6 finale, but that ending wasn’t very good. I don’t see Twilight and her friends being useless and defenseless against the changelings at a point of the show where they could defend themselves, let alone against the changelings, who they fought against in season 2. The whole rescue process is a very cheap way to to avoid having a character face the consequences of their actions by having them make the “noble rescue”, especially by making the Mane 6 completely useless and defenseless. I want to see characters actually having to put in the work to atone for all the wrongs they committed.

Some might argue that Every little thing she does would be an anomaly, and she would get better episodes with better stories, right? That was what I thought back in 2016. Well, to my dismay, it turns out that, despite getting so respected by everyone in a very short period of time after the finale of season 6, she comes back to manipulate even more characters. She uses everything. Mind control, dark magic, age regression magic, teleportation magic, a huge beam that anihilates Discord… even tricking her best friend to fill her ego.

Most of her actions not only conflict with what the series intended and disrupt the pacing, but also her choices don’t fit with her desire of redemption. There’s also the fact that she doesn’t consider other options apart from manipulation to solve a problem, and the only times she did it, it doesn’t make much sense. In Friendship is Magic, there’s an episode where Starlight starts to like rocks because, according to her, they don’t judge you. But the problem is that she has no right to say this after what she has done in Cutie Map and Every little thing she does. Even after this episode, she still keeps manipulating everyone as clearly frequent as possible. If she really really didn’t like to be judged, she should have taken responsibility and actually compromise to get better instead of complaining, not doing anything about it and call it a day. Her excuses make her seem like the kind of people who would bully someone a lot and then question why people don't like them.

Then there’s another episode where Rarity asks Starlight to use time travel magic to recover her hair and she refuses because it could fail. That makes sense. However, some episodes later, in Uncommon Bonds, she decides to manipulate her best friend by using age regression spell and teleportation spell without his consent just to recreate her past. This is like time travel with extra steps, but what really makes it scary was that she did this because she didn’t like the fact that her best friend was having fun with other new friends in Ponyville. It’s like The Dog in the Manger: If Starlight can’t have fun with Sunburst, then nobody can’t have fun with him. Not only it shows how manipulative Starlight still is, not only she’s a hypocrite, but it shows that Starlight is only interested in doing things that can fill her ego, which is very creepy. This type of inappropriate choices she makes invalidates her redemption arc.

It’s an insidious result for a character that is supposed to redeem herself. Not just for Starlight, but for Sunburst, maybe even more so for Sunburst. This is supposed to be the pony Starlight values most. So, if she ends up manipulating someone who’s supposed to be her best friend, it’s not because of any of that, it’s because she needs him as an excuse to make everything revolving around her, to feel better about herself and for selfish reasons.

What I mean by this is that in Friendship is Magic we got several episodes where Starlight refuses to consider other alternative options apart from magic without thinking that this might backfire. And nobody in the show questioned her, everyone is completely superstitious to her. Whenever Discord received suspicious looks from her friends, it’s because he was a villain in season 2, that makes sense. But the show doesn’t apply the same logic to Starlight. Even if she does horrible things many times, there are literally no consequences of her actions. Not only it sacrifices the artistic intent of the character that was established in the end of season 5, but it also severely devalues the artistic intent of the show in a degenerate way. The show Friendship is Magic is about learning the values of friendship. Trying to achieve that with a manipulative selfish questionable main character who doesn’t want to change does a disservice to the show.

It’s not that trying to give a plausible reason of why Starlight is like this is a bad idea. But you can’t give her story reasons and then do it half-assed. We’re never given a good reason why we should root for her, especially after what she has done in the show, which lead us to a very distasteful character in the end. Even with all this, the show tries so hard to make you feel sorry for her in ways that we’re not supposed to, which is one of the reasons why this character doesn’t work. The show feels lost in how it wants to view her because her actions conflict with her goal. And I think Friendship is Magic is too forgiving on her, to the point where even TV Tropes called her as “the most base breaking character in the show”.

Now, Starlight’s topic has been discussed to death in the fandom since 2015. And I’d be here all day if I try to take these arguments here. Go google her and you’ll read several arguments from both sides.

But all I’m gonna say is this: At the end of the day, I have a hard time believing that the Starlight we saw in All bottled up, Rock solid friendship, Uncommon bond and Road to friendship is the same unicorn that wanted to redeem herself at the end of Cutie re-mark. After finishing The last problem, I didn’t find her redemption arc pretty engaging, rewarding or even remotely satisfying. This isn’t something exclusive of Every little thing she does, it affected many of her episodes. There’s even a 2019 short where Starlight actively manipulates Twilight.

I’m not saying Starlight should never show any weaknesses or emotions, because that would be silly. A character without human flaws is a bad character. But the specific weaknesses she’s given here and their place in the show don’t sync up with the rest of the character.

That’s reason enough to complain, but, why do people still discuss about this issue with arguments from both sides when, as an industry, we get animated films and animated TV shows with bad scripts more often than not? Well, because people love MLP for the characters.

Often I read someone defending Starlight that “these are flaws. and while they are also essential parts of characters, flaws are not the entire character. There are weaknesses, strengths, flaws, personalities, morals, and more”. I have two problems with this argument.

1. Most of her choices weren’t little mistakes or flaws. There’s an episode called Road to friendship from season 8 where Starlight travels with Trixie. When they met in season 6, Trixie told her that this wagon is her home, her only home. What does Starlight do in Road to Friendship? She sells Trixie’s wagon, Trixie cries and then Starlight gets mad at her because of that, to the point where she accusses her of loving her wagon more than her.

Okay, that's not a charming little mistake, that is a dick move. And there are many times where she does stuff like that in the 4 last seasons, something where she's supposed to be responsible, but it's not like a funny little mistake or something clumsy gets in the way. She made a choice and they're usually very horrible choices. Keep in mind that actions define a character. It’s not “little flaws” that get in the way, it’s trying as hard as she can to have nothing to do with redemption, even if she got a chance at the end of season 5.

2. You are supposed to root for her. You’re supposed to want her to get better and, in the end, I didn’t want to, I thought she was horrible.

And that’s not to say that you shouldn’t ever write new characters for a popular show, but a new character badly written is far worse than not giving the show new characters.

I’m sure this comes as a surprise to practically nobody, but, it really does seem to be a product of mismanagement and deadlines.

A villain who wants to get better is an interesting idea for an animated TV show. But I do not think the current execution is anywhere near what it needs to be to be fun or to catch on. The show has an identity crisis with Starlight. Does it want her to be a character who wants to compromise with a main goal or does it want her to be a manipulative selfish villain like she was in the past? I have no idea why Josh Haber wanted to go to that direction when other approaches could have been more compelling, especially after Luna Eclipsed, Crusaders of the Lost Mark and the movie from 2017.

So, final lessons for bringing narrative to a long standing series. Just because you want to add narrative to the series doesn’t mean you have to shoehorn a new character that has to earn her place. And keep in mind everything you’ve established about the show in the past, even little details.

Just because she apologized once doesn’t stop her from making the same mistake again.

For everyone, I hope this helps as a reminded to stay aware and vigilant. Friendship is Magic has tons of great details that makes us appreciate something about ourselves. But every idealistic series like this one carries the potential for misuse. It happened to Friendship is Magic and it happened to Overwatch. And it’s on us, as a community, to do what we can to stop that misuse.

Take care

Edited May 15, 2023 by Ring Team

[J.J 918]

It's almost 2023 and we're seriously still doing this? I'll read this later, but I just thought that was a needed question, I just know with this much spew, my response is going to take me awhile...

[DPBOX 65]

Oh my goodness, I totally agree with this! I hate Starlight Glimmer just as much as you.

[Props Valroa 25,971]

I totally agree with you on this. Starlight's backstory and way she was presented in the show as extremely non-sensical. I used to be a fan of her, I will admit that she had fallen quite out of my favorites. I liked her as a villain, but the way she was reformed was rushed, nonsensical, and not believable. I would like to propose my own backstory for her. It is not complete. 

 

In the first arc, Starlight is fresh off the loss of her mother. She's searching for an outlet for her grief and gets teased a lot in school. Eventually, things come to a head and she snaps.

In the second arc, Starlight is more active and combative in her world, and generally succeeds in driving away a lot of ponies who would previously call themselves her friends. There's probably a focus on the other adults in her life, what they're trying to do to help her, and how she falls through the cracks anyway. This ends in some event in which she gets her cutie mark.

In the third arc, Starlight has new power from her cutie mark, but for some reason it scares or unnerves the ponies around her, both empowering and further isolating her. Her cutie mark being different than it is in the show, what it is, I am not so sure of. 

Early on, she uses her cutie mark in some way to rekindle her friendship with Sunburst, who also feels like an outcast. She starts developing her ideology of how the city/country/world etc should be run. Later in the arc, something happens to test her ideology, forcing her to choose between it and something else she cares about. She ends up choosing her ideology. 

[J.J 918]

I think my "biggest problem" with people that don't like Starlight is their endless crusade to get others to join them, or to persuade others into seeing her the way they do. Like they really really grand stand on the issue of her character, like even going as far as to remind people they don't like her in multiple posts even now nearly 4 years after the shows ending and 7 or 8 after her initial inclusion, it's like bro we can see your post in "new topics" did you need to make a status lol? You really really want people to know something we've already known from your neurotic obsessive hatred for her in your past posts lol 

Anyways we'll get to the matters at hand you bring up, I won't say she is a flawlessly written character, but through out this post I'll be scrolling up to give you my take on every little obsessive nit pick of her character and try to explain how they try to use her personality defectives to create plot material and how it makes more sense from perspective you don't have or headcanon you won't make for her... 

Let's start out somewhere where we can agree, yeah I totally agree in season 5 we didn't get ENOUGH Starlight, I think her development was kind of lacking and there was no way to gradually make her familiar to the viewers which created a lot of nit picky cynics like yourself who think her inclusion to the mane cast was rushed and unearned, but honestly? If you are going to present her as the main villain of a seasons arch, going with how the shows plots have ALL been written up to this point, alternatively fans like yourself would have just complained that she was given more time than other crappy senseless villains like Nightmare Moon or Sombra(who I think at least needed speaking roles) You would then have shifted your criticism to the fact of her getting "over emphasized" as a villain and feeling unworthy of her being so due to either Faust googles restricting the amount of oxygen to your brain, or just a general bad taste in character personality or in some of these villains case "lack thereof". It's clear you think she was over emphasized as a reform character, but we'll get more into that as this ridiculously long post I can't believe I'm taking the time to make drags out, as I know there is nothing to say to change the mind of someone that truly hates best pony. 

The fact that Starlight can take cutie marks herself in and of a premise, light weight supports her lying to the ponies of "Our Town" on its face, it's very unlikely that without her magic potential and years of research that anypony else would also be capable of performing this feat, she would have to have a never ending chain of unicorns preforming the spell and then teaching it to the next to ensure that everypony actually remained truthfully equal. Most likely lacked the genuine potential to preform such a spell themselves let alone be able to teach it to a less experienced unicorn than themselves, we can see throughout the show that most unicorns stick to magic that compliments their career or livelihood, they don't neurotically obsess over magic like ponies like Twilight or Starlight and this just creates another reason all on its own why a magic freak like Twilight would take interest in such a magically gifted unicorn like Starlight... Just because Starlight "can" take cutie marks, doesn't necessarily mean that with the right amount of training and study a pony likevTwilight couldn't, or Starswirl or Celestia... They just don't align themselves with a philosophy that would ever compel them to do such a thing..  

Next, AGAIN, I also agree I would have liked more initial back story for Starlight in season 5, "at first" I thought the trauma of having lost her best friend as a filly was shallow and lacking for a pony that had seemed to be so politically motivated, but honestly if you establish a little bit of headcanon for her like everyone loves to do with the shows WORST villain Nightmare Moon, the "in betweens" and justifications really begin to present themselves in large number, but you actually have to use a little imagination on a character you don't like, "imagine that." Lol. I believe that at first she created a neurotic obsession with learning magic in hopes of actually catching up to Sunburst, I think in her mind she thought, well if magic can move you up in the ranks of society it's obviously important that I know how to do it, and know how to do it well, it wasn't 5 minutes later after Sunburst ran out the door heartlessly leaving his best friend in the dust distracted by how awesome he thought he was, Starlight just said as a filly, "I'm going to learn how to take cutie marks and enslave a village some day because of this." If you head Canon it that way, than you really want to take depth away from her character, she went through years of learning how to become an effective magic user, shut off from the rest of society likely much like Twilight initially was, the big difference is Starlight developed conviction in an idea for a world that she GENUINELY believes will prevent ponies the same kind of heartache she felt and that she GENUINELY believes will make Equestria a better place for other ponies, her being a control freak doesn't take away from her actual resolve or perspective, it's not like she's just doing it because she wants revenge at the world because she lost her childhood friend? That was just the event that put everything in motion and lead her to become the pony she was by s.5 of the show? 

"Twilight has no reason to empathize with Starlight." Oh? And what are the reasons to empathize with an evil alicorn thats literal premise and motivation would utterly disturb the natural balance of all of Equestria and ultimately subject them to famine, and basically end the ponies food supply indirectly? An evil alicorn princess who is just "jealous bc her sister is more popular"? Who has now tried to overthrow the sitting ruler of Equestria twice now? She makes some crappy illusions, runs away into the middle of the forest to hide, then gets rainbow blasted by ponies who have literally only known each other for 30 minutes, no character progression arc AT ALL, then she cries about it because she got thwarted (unlike Starlight who had to willfully concede on her own Accord.) And then it's just all fine, like "aww poor baby woona", let's just appoint her to the second highest role of authority in Equestria after trying to overthrow Equestria twice... That makes a lot of sense... Anyways back to a pony that matters in Starlight.... 

The main reason to empathize would be for the fact that 1. We already know Starlight is a vengeful pony, look at the entire premise for the s.5 finale? She's made herself emotionally transparent, and willingly conceded the fight to see Twilight's way? What are we gonna throw the book at ponies like Starlight and not ponies like Luna who literally REPEAT injustices or characters like Discord who literally BETRAY their friends after being given special extra chances to reform and price themselves? How about you sympathize with Starlight because it's the right thing to do and consistent with the shows message? She wasn't trying to "end the world"? Obviously you can tell by her reaction to the dystopia Twilight brings her to, in her mind instilling equality was BETTER for the world, she's quoted being consistent to that sentiment on MULTIPLE occasions... Starlight was trying to end a friendship circle, and it is even more relevant to how she lost her friend as a filly, and reflective of how Twilight's friendship circle made her lose everything she worked so tirelessly to build... 

I will admit "every little thing's she does" is admittedly her "worst episode" but you really want to compare this mistake of having her friends make a scrap book and bake cakes in a temporary attempt as an excuse to be lazy what more is a poorly written episode all around, but you think Discord can be excused for lying to his to friends, locking them in a literal cage and allowing a mutant centaur man to drain all of their magic power? I just don't see it, and you are using a lot of "word play" to attribute single mistakes to make them seem like an abundant handful while also blatantly ignoring the context of these situations... Discord was begging to be banned from school grounds, the only shame in that scenario is that she didn't obliterate him in my opinion... But I digress 

She continues making these misconceptions and mistakes with magic because that is literally who her character is designed to be, what kind of character regression do you want when you already know on the surface she is one of the most magically gifted ponies in Equestria, she would be a lot less interesting and you would alternatively complain that she is a character of no depth, and just a background pony echoing the viewpoints of her new friends with very little substance of her own... What makes her different and unique are all of these scenarios that her magic can create. It adds to her, not takes away, she's still defective and on its face this is a pony that was known for cloaking her magic potential for years, not allowing it to be known and acknowledged by all of her friends and peers... The ponies of "Our Town" genuinely did not know about Starlight's capabilities for years, they thought she was a equality pony with a magic staff, not that she had hidden magic powers, and Starlight is now coming to grips with her identity as part of her actual persona and character, it conflicts this is who she is going to be on the surface now, and now she's implementing this magic she's hidden for so long into little wacky slice of life situations bc her primary skill and strong point is magic, we see later that Starlight can hardly last on a camping trip without her magic, she's a lot more codependent on it than you seem to think, she's was just able to sway the ponies of Our Town because they wanted to believe in something more than the lives they were leading, and I have context from multiple other Starlight posts I can bring to this one, but God knows if you will actually read all of it, or just see one thing you disagree with, and proceed to try to ream me for seeing her in a different light or being able to establish headcanon for her.. 

There is a HUGE difference in being socially disingenuous and being inconsistent with the standards made by your new friends or peers, Starlight goes from manipulating others to serve her cause that in itself she genuinely felt was righteous, to being completely transparent and trying to get others to accept her for who she is on the surface, I mean Mrs Cake was literally mad at her bc her powers could literally make her job irrelevant, she isn't hiding her powers anymore, now she's mildly being encouraged to embrace them? I mean that is the whole message if what Twilight was saying in combatting her correct? Why should Starlight repress her talents for the comfort of others if the philosophy is that "cutie marks and talents make us all special, let's embrace our talents..."

So there IS a slight mixed message there, and it more or less adds credence to her social misconceptions not takes them away, she is trying to confidently implement her magic into her day to day life now without hiding it, but she also wants to develop and be able to interact in within the social structure of the other ponies, I will say selling Trixies wagon was one I saw as actually pretty terrible, it was something extremely sentimental to her best friend, but these other scenarios, I mean, instances like these are what helps Starlight continue her progress at being able to "honestly communicate" not just "communicate" she holds back on her perspectives, because she doesn't feel she's in a position to freely speak her mind at time, she uses magic as a crutch, she eventually makes it to the position of guidance counselor I think for a reason, and it's supposed to note how the largest parts of her character progression, INCLUDING her initial inclusion of the show come from being able to communicate with others in the wake of these disagreements and not just keep everything "all bottled up." Lol, you can sympathize with Starlight for many reasons, she's making the efforts to conform to the lifestyles of others she just has to find a way through out the series that she can do this and still embrace what's true about herself and her own talents... She's not "perfect" but she's not supposed to be, she's supposed to be her to tell you that there are varying forms of social and emotional competence, some that greatly rival our own, this doesn't make these individuals perspectives inherently wrong and there is a lot that being a teacher can teach us ourselves... Starlight teaches Twilight on various occasions, but this inclusion I feel was the best way to move Twilight's character forward as well, she was ready to become a teacher herself and what better student for the element of magic to have than arguably the most powerful magic user in Equestria who in herself is looking to become more socially adept...

Now these are just merely justifications and reasonings, I haven't even began to touch all of her positive qualities and redeeming traits, but that isn't what my role in defending Starlight in this witch hunt is, 

As far as "To Where And Back" I always criticize the incompetence of changelings and question their strategies after seeing so e if the forms they can take, but you have no idea how the changelings went about individually replacing the princesses or mane 6 so I obviously to me there is more blatant choice to not want to head Canon in the situation because you dont like Starlight and wish to invalidate one of her triumphs, WHICH she accomplishes WITHOUT MAGIC, I might add...

But yeah there's no saying that if Chrysalis hadn't underestimated Starlight she wouldn't have been easily lured into a false sense of security just like the others... Another good question you know, where is Discord in all of this? Obviously his sense for magically imbalances isnt that good? He didn't even want to interfere when Starlight literally changed the course of time separating the elements of harmony? Seems like a pretty big "magical imbalance to me" but whatever forgot he gets the free pass bc "living tombstone rulez" and "John De Lancie"  lol ..

Hold up I'll bring you some more Starlight context I got it everywhere 

 

[J.J 918]

MORAL INSIGHT FROM ANOTHER POST

She was by far the LEAST "evil" of all the MLP villains, her reformation means a lot to me as a person, but no, the experiences Starlight went through as a pony genuinely made her believe that what she was doing was for the greater good of all ponies. We don't get direct context as to how she persuaded the ponies that she did to partake in the project of "Our Town" but there is a lot to be said about why she wasn't honest to begin with,

 

1. Can a unicorn really even remove her own magic? Or would Starlight have to teach some spell to another unicorn to be able to accomplish doing this? We know that Starlight is LITERALLY the only pony who has ever been able to accomplish doing this? How long would it take her to teach this magic to anyone else? In doing this, that would suggest there be a never ending chain of unicorns teaching new unicorns how to perform this spell so that they all in fact could be equal? Well it's gonna be awfully hard without having magic in general to teach the spell...? How do we know all unicorns would even be capable of such a complex spell? Eventually you would hit a wall in terms of magic capability/comprehension...

 

2. Starlight NEVER, "enslaved' anypony, she manipulated them, again there is lacking context, but there is nothing to suggest she was threatening them into staying in the community with their lives, they were brainwashed, we don't have all the context as to why they decided to join "Our Town" to begin with, but obviously their lives were indeed lacking if they chose to leave them behind in trust of a unicorn they have just met... The way that the ponies of Our Town rationalize their conformity and the way they neglect to ask any questions or look for these answers despite being long term residents of the town itself says just about as much for their competence as it does for Starlight's manipulative tendencies, they were conceptually "happy" not asking these questions....

 

3. Starlight's "control bit" and quite possibly her entire obsession with magic as I have explained MANY times comes from a direct result of her understanding as to how the world prioritizes those that wield it effectively and in her mind, (since I actually do headcanon for good characters) She thought that if she could use this magic effectively at it's conception she may have been able to catch up with her long lost friend or that her being able to use the magic in general was the end all for how the social structure of pony importance worked in general, she got deep into using it because she genuinely disagreed with the sentiment that made her so obsessed with learning it herself, this sentiment is about the social hierarchy and importance of "magic wielders" more or less and not the magic itself, she wanted to genuinely seperate others from having to make personal concessions for not being as "up to snuff" as other ponies, because that is what she knows is capable of happening because of these "special talents"... She uses magic to control because she doesn't want to feel helpless herself, and if she can keep others under control she won't have to make these personal concessions ever again.

 

4. If there was EVER a pony deserving of her successes and vengeful vindication through the destruction of these, it was DEFINITELY Starlight, Starlight never invited the Mane 6 to "Our Town" they show up randomly via instructions of some little magic map, and start to begin investigated it's political infrastructure based off their own intuition, there really is nothing to prove that if they had not been looking for answers themselves that they wouldn't have not just initially been allowed to leave... Yeah we know Starlight sees Twi and it becomes her goal to confirm an alicorn, but they asked to see the vault, they made it their mission to try to get to the bottom of what was going on there, and up to that point they were welcomed as guests and given crappy muffins to enjoy, not force assimilated by some brainwashing film or whatever, yeah AFTER they tried to step on Starlight's toes, Starlight put them in a room for seemingly causing anarchy in Our Town by making her followers go against the towns philosophy.. who knows what would happen if Starlight just let these ponies go? They would probably come back with an army to destroy everything she worked so hard at building?

 

5. When Starlight seeks revenge against Twilight and her friends she doesn't do this with the intention of "ending the world" she does this with the intention of ending a single friendship circle? So they can feel like she did when 1. She lost Sunburst (obviously) which makes her backstory make MORE sense in this situation bc she's proving part of her point about special abilities ending friendships by ruining friendships with special abilities. 2. So they can understand the loss of everything that matters most to them and EVERYTHING that they covet being taken away from them, but even this isn't even completely true, because if Starlight had succeeded at altering time in any one if these dystopias, they would have no recollection of what they had even lost, it's not like they get to keep all these memories? It's not like they have to feel the hurt from losing their true friendships? She's just preventing them from ever happening... At the end, when Twilight takes Starlight with her, to this dystopian wasteland that is left of Equestria, DO YOU NOT SEE Starlight's reaction? She doesn't want to end the world? She wants to make it better in her mind? She didn't want that to happen, she just wanted to remove Twilight Sparkle and her friends from being an ideological threat in concept in part of this new world? She wanted to make the world better through equality, not destroy it...? 

 

6. Starlight studied all these spells and had a genuine idea for what she could do to change Equestria for the better, these plots weren't for simply "revenge" or because she "lOvES ChAOs wooo" or because she simply wanted to become more magically powerful? She genuinely did what she did with purpose and conviction not just outright malice? When she says, "everything else I said was true, the only way to be happy is if we're all equal" or when she says "no I stopped them from bullying because we all should be equal, stopping the rainboom is just a bonus". She believes in this philosophy, she just as I've explained before, if she were to adhere to it herself that would add a lot of complications but ultimately contradict the purpose in why she is doing what she is doing. Starlight sacrifices everything BUT her magic to live in this little podunk nothing town in the middle of BFE, and she's sacrificed her time, any luxuries she did have, she's genuinely doing a lot to mobilize for this philosophy she's trying to spread, this did not come without her own hard work and sacrifice, something Twilight utterly invalidated in 2 episodes so she could feel accomplished as the princess of friendship.

 

I'm not going to justify Starlight's obvious lies, but I'm going to say there were objective reasons for some of them, Starlight is by far THE LEAST evil villain of all of My Little Pony, probably the entire franchise, being cunning doesn't add to the malice of someone's intentions, people act like personal competence always is supposed to be attributed to common sense, ummm Starlight has literally been taught from Filly to full grown mare up to this point that magic is the way, it's how she's taught herself? One could argue by extension she's breaking the chains of others that have her claimed inherently that she can't escape, but the point is her reformation... She just gets even better, we get to see that it isn't flawed intention that causes Starlight to make these mistakes, it's flawed thinking... If anything these mistakes should "humanize her" not start up a witch hunt against her because she's been inherently led to think differently than other ponies? Them giving her a chance makes the most sense, but I can give you all these reasons separately as I'm getting way off topic on the MLP gens post lol...

 

There's just a lot to suggest that Starlight may have never been "evil" on its face, rather misguided and prone to a different belief system that was self justified and by her own emotional competence and experiences... Starlight knows little of Hearrhswarming or the Wonderbolts yet, she can change one of Starswirls spells? She had her own intentions, her own interests, her own priorities, she didn't do what she did merely for power, she just couldn't give up her power to achieve what she wanted

[Props Valroa 25,971]

Starlight to me was the villain who had the most power. She could go back in time and change the world to whatever she wanted with the scroll. Plus, the whole brainwashing of her villagers was psychotic. To me, she has by far the worst potential for a villain in the show in terms of the destruction they may cause. Starlight would have wanted to brainwash everyone to make them her equal ponies. Her backstory struck me as a lazy attempt to explain this kind of behavior. 

[J.J 918]

3 minutes ago, Props ValRoa said:

Starlight to me was the villain who had the most power. She could go back in time and change the world to whatever she wanted with the scroll. Plus, the whole brainwashing of her villagers was psychotic. To me, she has by far the worst potential for a villain in the show in terms of the destruction they may cause. Starlight would have wanted to brainwash everyone to make them her equal ponies. Her backstory struck me as a lazy attempt to explain this kind of behavior. 

That's just not true, if she could go back in time to change it to "whatever she wanted" she could have just altered the past to stop the books from falling on herself that ended the Sunburst friendship, she HAD NO IDEA about the dystopias she was creating, she thought she was ending the friendship circle, not the world, there's a lot of rules that come into play with time travel, the paradox of stopping the books from falling, would have meant that she never learned how to time travel in the first place likely, and it would negate the experience and negate the instance of her stopping the books from falling, it's impossible... and these are "learned abilities" her premise "more destructive" than NMM, Discord, Tirek or Cozy Glow? Are you insane?

8 minutes ago, Props ValRoa said:

Starlight to me was the villain who had the most power. She could go back in time and change the world to whatever she wanted with the scroll. Plus, the whole brainwashing of her villagers was psychotic. To me, she has by far the worst potential for a villain in the show in terms of the destruction they may cause. Starlight would have wanted to brainwash everyone to make them her equal ponies. Her backstory struck me as a lazy attempt to explain this kind of behavior. 

Everything that those villains would ultimately accomplish would literally disrupt the natural order of Equestria, not bring order to it?

[Props Valroa 25,971]

@J.J

I believe she was very intent and very knowing of what she was doing - and that is what makes her the most destructive villain in my eyes. Nightmare Moon in my eyes was probably one of the more benign of the major villains. Simply respect her and don't bother her, and she won't bother you (I believe she would have used various types of magic to prevent the world from freezing over without the sun, but that's off topic). 

[J.J 918]

1 minute ago, Props ValRoa said:

@J.J

I believe she was very intent and very knowing of what she was doing - and that is what makes her the most destructive villain in my eyes. Nightmare Moon in my eyes was probably one of the more benign of the major villains. Simply respect her and don't bother her, and she won't bother you (I believe she would have used various types of magic to prevent the world from freezing over without the sun, but that's off topic). 

If you believe "she knew" she was creating those dystopias you clearly didn't watch the s.5 finale, and if you are talking about her knowing that dishonesty undermined the premise of wanting a new and equal world for all ponies, welcome to any political institution, but apparently jealousy is enough to trigger NMM though so, in her new world don't get to popular or take any attention off of her, she may persecute you for it...

[Props Valroa 25,971]

1 minute ago, J.J said:

If you believe "she knew" she was creating those dystopias you clearly didn't watch the s.5 finale, and if you are talking about her knowing that dishonesty undermined the premise of wanting a new and equal world for all ponies, welcome to any political institution, but apparently jealousy is enough to trigger NMM though so, in her new world don't get to popular or take any attention off of her, she may persecute you for it...

Nightmare Moon's story is told from the victors. The victors write history. We never truly saw her side of the story. All we saw what was Celestia's side of the story. I believe it was something that festered over the centuries, with complex political affairs behind it, rather than just plain and simple jealousy. I've read fanfics that put anything in the show to shame, and I've seen plenty of good ones about it. 

[J.J 918]

Moments ago, Props ValRoa said:

Nightmare Moon's story is told from the victors. The victors write history. We never truly saw her side of the story. All we saw what was Celestia's side of the story. I believe it was something that festered over the centuries, with complex political affairs behind it, rather than just plain and simple jealousy. I've read fanfics that put anything in the show to shame, and I've seen plenty of good ones about it. 

But you can't find good fanfics for Starlight eh? This is the biggest problem with Luna/NMM fans they act like headcanon for her is absolute but completely ignore canonical redeeming traits from characters like Starlight when it takes away from the narrative they have about her...

Nah Nightmare Moons story is told from the literal LOSERS, she was butthurt that someone more competent and grounded was able to maintain order in Equestria in such ways that almost made her seem irrelevant, and irrelevant she truthfully was as Celestia was able to raise the moon perfectly fine without her...

Ive said MANY times myself I need more context if I'm to sympathize with Luna and even suggested that Sunset may have had a falling out with Celestia over similar reasons, but I can't see Celestia as this "unfair tyrant" when she will literally forgive Discord after multiple attempts to over throw Equestria and forgive Luna of the same... Luna is appointed to the second highest position of ruling after failing to take over the world and getting thwarted by a team of ponies that barely know each other, she's a loser in my eyes... Twilight had to beg or plead for Starlight's concession, those cards she controlled, she didn't concede cause she had to, she did it because she actually felt it was the right thing to do...

[Props Valroa 25,971]

@J.J

Quote

But you can't find good fanfics for Starlight eh? 

The fanfic that got me into reading into the first place was a Starlight fanfic. You can't just assume things like that and expect it to hold water.  I do not like the way Starlight was handled in the show. That does not mean that I do not like Starlight as a concept. Starlight in fanfics is much better than the one in the show. The one in the show has an extremely poor backstory that I find laughable - so she loses one friend as a child and goes on to found a psychotic cult based around removing cutie marks, the source of ponies talents, in a magical world?

https://www.fimfiction.net/story/376880/the-olden-world

[J.J 918]

Moments ago, Props ValRoa said:

@J.J

The fanfic that got me into reading into the first place was a Starlight fanfic. You can't just assume things like that and expect it to hold water. 

https://www.fimfiction.net/story/376880/the-olden-world

It was a question, not an assumption, I'm just saying if your basis of justification is fanfics than it doesn't hold ANY water...

[Props Valroa 25,971]

Moments ago, J.J said:

It was a question, not an assumption, I'm just saying if your basis of justification is fanfics than it doesn't hold ANY water...

My basis is that fans have created better content with Starlight than the writers of the actual show. 

[J.J 918]

Moments ago, Props ValRoa said:

My basis is that fans have created better content with Starlight than the writers of the actual show. 

That I largely won't refute, but I'm holding true to the fact that Starlight's Canon "in the show" is better than Nightmare Moons as well as many other villains 

[Props Valroa 25,971]

Moments ago, J.J said:

That I largely won't refute, but I'm holding true to the fact that Starlight's Canon "in the show" is better than Nightmare Moons as well as many other villains 

I definitely don't agree with that, for reasons I have already stated. 

 

[J.J 918]

3 hours ago, Props ValRoa said:

@J.J

The fanfic that got me into reading into the first place was a Starlight fanfic. You can't just assume things like that and expect it to hold water.  I do not like the way Starlight was handled in the show. That does not mean that I do not like Starlight as a concept. Starlight in fanfics is much better than the one in the show. The one in the show has an extremely poor backstory that I find laughable - so she loses one friend as a child and goes on to found a psychotic cult based around removing cutie marks, the source of ponies talents, in a magical world?

https://www.fimfiction.net/story/376880/the-olden-world

Clearly you didn't read any of my insight, why can't people make a fraction of headcanon for Starlight but they can make entire books about the shows worst character? If you think Starlight just literally as a filly, lost her friend and said, "I'm going to start a cult of equality" your seriously lacking depth OR you just hate Starlight on face

3 hours ago, Props ValRoa said:

I definitely don't agree with that, for reasons I have already stated. 

 

That's an agree to disagree then because aside from Sombra I think Nightmare Moon is the shows most lazily uninspired villains who lives off Faust clout 

[Props Valroa 25,971]

Moments ago, J.J said:

Clearly you didn't read any of my insight, why can't people make a fraction of headcanon for Starlight but they can make entire books about the shows worst character? If you think Starlight just literally as a filly, lost her friend and said, "I'm going to start a cult of equality" your seriously lacking depth OR you just hate Starlight on face

I don't hate her. For years she was my favorite character - but the backstory was always her worst trait to me. The issue isn't Starlight. The issue is how she was written. 

[North Star 4,466]

Ok first off, that was an incredible post! 

However, the big difference between MLP and Steven Universe is that MLP is written by a collection of writers on a theme and NOT as a cohesive whole. Starlight, like all the ponies, is a character-beat and not a character. Starlight's character-beat is OP fragile anti-hero and I absolutely love the delivery of that but ofc half the time (and especially when she's not the focus) her character makes no sense. 

The worst thing about Starlight was her redemption, as you say. But can't you see some value in the villain portrayal and the reformed character portrayal as separate things? 

I can agree with a great deal of what you say though - MLP did manage to be pretty coherent, and much of what you say makes sense as a criticism. I certainly think she was a base-breaker. The thing is - Kelly Sheridan delivered, and the writers wrote great eps for her. She was one of the best things about S5 and S6 for me. The loss to coherence was more than made up with delivery in other areas.

[North Star 4,466]

19 hours ago, J.J said:

She was by far the LEAST "evil" of all the MLP villains, her reformation means a lot to me as a person, but no, the experiences Starlight went through as a pony genuinely made her believe that what she was doing was for the greater good of all ponies

omg, the amazing first post was followed up by this amazing reply I don't have time to address it rn but want to come back to this. I think as fans we can fill in the gaps with Starlight and come up with a credible villain and that seems to be what you have done. They give us an outline hint at what makes her hurt ponies in the show and I agree that she's the least villainous in substance (although one of the most sinister and adult-themed villains in style/theme) - I think that is shown by how ready her village are to forgive her and the fact that many of the village ponies were ready to follow her when they thought she was pledging genuine equality.

[Splashee 28,537]

If I only know what the original plan was for Starlight. Season 5's beginning was obviously written by MA Larson. But then, it gets really weird. I can't tell if Starlight was supposed to be redeemed at the end or not.

[Ring Team 119]

1 hour ago, Splashee said:

If I only know what the original plan was for Starlight. Season 5's beginning was obviously written by MA Larson. But then, it gets really weird. I can't tell if Starlight was supposed to be redeemed at the end or not.

This is why I don't think trying to guess what happened or what could have happened behind the scenes is a good way to talk about a TV show or a film. I think it's much more beneficial to talk about the content on their own merits than trying to play Cluedo with the production, animation team and writing process.

Keep in mind that the only people who know for sure how these creative decisions happened are the ones who did it. I’m much more comfortable examining characters such as Starlight Glimmer than I am guessing why this happened. Because at least with the character arcs, stories and episodes I can confidently break down how and why she's a bad character.

[J.J 918]

12 minutes ago, Ring Team said:

 I can confidently break down how and why she's a bad character.

*Why it is your OPINION she is a bad character

I think you have a little bit of an "expectation clause" going on here and your comparing her personality and standards and behaviors to that of the Mane 6 and other ponies, and the fact that she was one of the only villains they bothered to even attempt to throw in a back story for and it didn't live up to your standards or expectations, I saw on your profile season 1 was your favorite season and that explains a lot to me, tell me what gives any of these villains more depth philosophically based off of CANON ALONE that makes them have more depth than Starlight Glimmer, without bringing up some weird delusional Luna fanfic portraying her as the complete opposite character the shows consistency will tell us she is... You most likely can not do this in a way that can't be easily debated...

Now her as a "reformation character" has it's inconsistencies but the writers are at fault for using her abundant magical talent for plot material, but they just had the ability to do this with her so quickly because of how multi dimensional her character truly was... I mean it's cool if you don't like her, I even lightweight understand on the backstory tip, but nitpicking her emotional and selfish decisions, I mean she's Trixies best friend for a reason? Quit comparing her and pretending like she should be a carbon copy of Twilight, Ember...

[Ring Team 119]

10 minutes ago, J.J said:

*Why it is your OPINION she is a bad character

I think you have a little bit of an "expectation clause" going on here and your comparing her personality and standards and behaviors to that of the Mane 6 and other ponies, and the fact that she was one of the only villains they bothered to even attempt to throw in a back story for and it didn't live up to your standards or expectations, I saw on your profile season 1 was your favorite season and that explains a lot to me, tell me what gives any of these villains more depth philosophically based off of CANON ALONE that makes them have more depth than Starlight Glimmer, without bringing up some weird delusional Luna fanfic portraying her as the complete opposite character the shows consistency will tell us she is... You most likely can not do this in a way that can't be easily debated...

Now her as a "reformation character" has it's inconsistencies but the writers are at fault for using her abundant magical talent for plot material, but they just had the ability to do this with her so quickly because of how multi dimensional her character truly was... I mean it's cool if you don't like her, I even lightweight understand on the backstory tip, but nitpicking her emotional and selfish decisions, I mean she's Trixies best friend for a reason? Quit comparing her and pretending like she should be a carbon copy of Twilight, Ember...

This argument can pretty much be boiled down to "that's your opinion" but with... one extra step.

I personally dislike when people do this because, yeah, it's true. But it's also entirely unhelpful. Pointing at my opinion is, of course, my opinion in the comments of some thoughts I wanted to share... It's not some silver bullet that obliterates all of my points.

Let me put it this way. I can articulate why Despicable Me is a bad movie. And your response would be "well, that's just your opinion, just your taste". And that's it.

Also, quick note: Calling Starlight's criticism as "witch hunt" or "hatred" is like those teachers who don’t want to change the behavior of the bully that’s harassing you because “he can’t do nothing, it will look like he’s picking favourites”, and then immediately suspend you just because you tried to defend yourself from that bully. I think you can be calm without trying to verbally degrade other people just because they don't like a character as much as you do. That makes the debate impossible to logically discuss, especially in Derpibooru.

If someone doesn't want to read the problems a certain character has, it's as easy as this writer avoiding these problems. If a writer wants to talk about redemption, compassion and empathy, that's cool. That's why I love the 2017 movie and Crusaders of the Lost Mark. But that writer shouldn't run away from commitment. After all, bad examples are often easier to learn from.