Starlight Glimmer - How NOT to write a character

[Courageous Thunder Dash 7,809]

The biggest problem for me with Starlight is her weak backstory...her basis and reasons. That's the most vulnerable area when it comes to character development. 

On 2022-12-12 at 11:04 AM, J.J said:

Next, AGAIN, I also agree I would have liked more initial back story for Starlight in season 5, "at first" I thought the trauma of having lost her best friend as a filly was shallow and lacking for a pony that had seemed to be so politically motivated, but honestly if you establish a little bit of headcanon for her like everyone loves to do with the shows WORST villain Nightmare Moon, the "in betweens" and justifications really begin to present themselves in large number, but you actually have to use a little imagination on a character you don't like, "imagine that." Lol. I believe that at first she created a neurotic obsession with learning magic in hopes of actually catching up to Sunburst, I think in her mind she thought, well if magic can move you up in the ranks of society it's obviously important that I know how to do it, and know how to do it well, it wasn't 5 minutes later after Sunburst ran out the door heartlessly leaving his best friend in the dust distracted by how awesome he thought he was, Starlight just said as a filly, "I'm going to learn how to take cutie marks and enslave a village some day because of this." If you head Canon it that way, than you really want to take depth away from her character, she went through years of learning how to become an effective magic user, shut off from the rest of society likely much like Twilight initially was, the big difference is Starlight developed conviction in an idea for a world that she GENUINELY believes will prevent ponies the same kind of heartache she felt and that she GENUINELY believes will make Equestria a better place for other ponies, her being a control freak doesn't take away from her actual resolve or perspective, it's not like she's just doing it because she wants revenge at the world because she lost her childhood friend? That was just the event that put everything in motion and lead her to become the pony she was by s.5 of the show? 

 

Excellent points here. But all that you said in this blurb alone...gives me an idea about Starlight...begging this question: After the Sunburst incident, would you agree that Starlight had a "fear to anger" moment? What I'm saying is...do you think Starlight was initially driven by the fear of being weak and useless? 

My answer is yes, but what about you?

[J.J 918]

34 minutes ago, Ring Team said:

This argument can pretty much be boiled down to "that's your opinion" but with... one extra step.

I personally dislike when people do this because, yeah, it's true. But it's also entirely unhelpful. Pointing at my opinion is, of course, my opinion in the comments of some thoughts I wanted to share... It's not some silver bullet that obliterates all of my points.

Let me put it this way. I can articulate why Despicable Me is a bad movie. And your response would be "well, that's just your opinion, just your taste". And that's it.

Also, quick note: Calling Starlight's criticism as "witch hunt" or "hatred" is like those teachers who don’t want to change the behavior of the bully that’s harassing you because “he can’t do nothing, it will look like he’s picking favourites”, and then immediately suspend you just because you tried to defend yourself from that bully. I think you can be calm without trying to verbally degrade other people just because they don't like a character as much as you do. That makes the debate impossible to logically discuss, especially in Derpibooru.

If someone doesn't want to read the problems a certain character has, it's as easy as this writer avoiding these problems. If a writer wants to talk about redemption, compassion and empathy, that's cool. That's why I love the 2017 movie and Crusaders of the Lost Mark. But that writer shouldn't run away from commitment. After all, bad examples are often easier to learn from.

I think you share "some fair criticisms" that don't effect how I see her as a character ultimately, but that I still ultimately concurred with you in, regarding some of the posts I've made, however me calling it a "witch hunt" isn't bullying you? It's protecting the bully from the cynical criticisms that you seem to believe ONLY she in specific has earned the right to undergo, while blatantly ignoring flaws and inconsistencies in some of your favorite characters... The problem boils down to "her inclusion feeling forced" the fans think it happened to quickly, but if we would have taken an entire season for a "reformation arc" on Starlight people would have equally complained that she was getting extra attention for her reformation that their crappy fan favorites like Luna didn't receive or characters like Discord who literally can get away with just about anything and be forgiven countless times... What makes it a witch hunt inherently is the situation she was created in, there was nothing they could have done to soften the blow, one way or another in Starlight cynics would have been dissatisfied by her inclusion in the show because it's the 5th season, their Faust goggles are on tight and their ungrateful expectations are getting higher... 

Had Starlight faced persecution after WILLFULLY conceding it would have been a witch hunt all the same, you want everyone to be forgiven except her? That's what will satisfy you... I just, you have to be real, the writers made "some" mistakes "every little thing that she does" but I mean in your post you are literally trying to invalidate triumphs that add depth and dimensions to her character, like success in leadership without magic? Bc you think "nahhhh my fayverit ponee kant luse tag Chaynglins where Sturrlat can succeed" like I said you have to head Canon a lot of scenarios in this show, especially pertaining to villains, but watching her overcome and put herself at risk to save Equestria being totally vulnerable wasn't enough for you on its face, you had to again compare the situation she's in to that of the mane 6, and it's unfair when she's a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT pony...

[J.J 918]

19 minutes ago, Courageous Thunder Dash said:

The biggest problem for me with Starlight is her weak backstory...her basis and reasons. That's the most vulnerable area when it comes to character development. 

Excellent points here. But all that you said in this blurb alone...gives me an idea about Starlight...begging this question: After the Sunburst incident, would you agree that Starlight had a "fear to anger" moment? What I'm saying is...do you think Starlight was initially driven by the fear of being weak and useless? 

My answer is yes, but what about you?

I think that's an insecurity that drives a lot of characters and villains and isn't all that uncommon, they have a misperception about what "power" actually is. I just have to say thst I think Starlight is obviously very capable and very confident in the training she's been through and knowledge she's acquired, I think it becomes more about being a control freak through this insecurity than being inherently afraid of being powerless... She's bursting at the seam with potential, she could magically subject others to her will largely, there's tons of talents she has that makes her far from "weak and useless" think your projecting a little there, I think she wanted to maintain this power "at large" because I do sincerely believe that in her mind she thought that equality and her grips on its disposal were what was best for Equestria... I think her genuinely being a "control freak" lead her to believe that her will was absolute and made the most sense... But I mean there are COUNTLESS other things Starlight "could do" running with the "she feels weak and useless" thing feels like you are gesturing to me

[Courageous Thunder Dash 7,809]

25 minutes ago, J.J said:

I do sincerely believe that in her mind she thought that equality and her grips on its disposal were what was best for Equestria...

Big pointer here. Just look at how mentally broken those ponies were...compared to the mane 6...like...the mane 6 couldn't even go a second without their cutie marks. That's what makes it so painful...and stirred a hate for Starlight within me, hoping she'd get her dues. But I think the strongest part was how Starlight took revenge...she went as far as trying to alter the timeline of all things. 

[Props Valroa 25,982]

It's clear to me Starlight knew what she was doing to those ponies. It was psychotic and cruel. 

[J.J 918]

1 minute ago, Courageous Thunder Dash said:

Big pointer here. Just look at how mentally broken those ponies were...compared to the mane 6...like...the mane 6 couldn't even go a second without their cutie marks. That's what makes it so painful...and stirred a hate for Starlight within me, hoping she'd get her dues. But I think the strongest part was how Starlight took revenge...she went as far as trying to alter the timeline of all things. 

She did it to end a friendship circle, not the world, in Starlight's world there would still be an order to things and means to survive, just under an oppressive philosophy THEY CHOSE, I know my insights about Starlight are long, but it's clear to me nobody is taking the time to ACTUALLY read them... 

There's NOTHING to suggest Starlight was threatening them by force, they were brainwashed by their own short minded conformity and inability to ask bigger questions themselves, THEY CHOSE this life because their previous lives were obviously lacking

[J.J 918]

1 minute ago, Props ValRoa said:

It's clear to me Starlight knew what she was doing to those ponies. It was psychotic and cruel. 

The argument isnt that she didn't know what she was doing, it's that she thought it was for the greater good, she wasn't getting a little "head rush" like "yeees yeees the power, they all obey me" no, she was just a bit smug bc she was pretty proud that she was accomplishing what she genuinely thought was right for Equestria, please, actually take the time to read my defenses of Starlight before replying... That or I'll quote myself again with hopes that someone actually will ..

[J.J 918]

On 2022-12-12 at 11:25 AM, J.J said:

MORAL INSIGHT FROM ANOTHER POST

She was by far the LEAST "evil" of all the MLP villains, her reformation means a lot to me as a person, but no, the experiences Starlight went through as a pony genuinely made her believe that what she was doing was for the greater good of all ponies. We don't get direct context as to how she persuaded the ponies that she did to partake in the project of "Our Town" but there is a lot to be said about why she wasn't honest to begin with,

 

1. Can a unicorn really even remove her own magic? Or would Starlight have to teach some spell to another unicorn to be able to accomplish doing this? We know that Starlight is LITERALLY the only pony who has ever been able to accomplish doing this? How long would it take her to teach this magic to anyone else? In doing this, that would suggest there be a never ending chain of unicorns teaching new unicorns how to perform this spell so that they all in fact could be equal? Well it's gonna be awfully hard without having magic in general to teach the spell...? How do we know all unicorns would even be capable of such a complex spell? Eventually you would hit a wall in terms of magic capability/comprehension...

 

2. Starlight NEVER, "enslaved' anypony, she manipulated them, again there is lacking context, but there is nothing to suggest she was threatening them into staying in the community with their lives, they were brainwashed, we don't have all the context as to why they decided to join "Our Town" to begin with, but obviously their lives were indeed lacking if they chose to leave them behind in trust of a unicorn they have just met... The way that the ponies of Our Town rationalize their conformity and the way they neglect to ask any questions or look for these answers despite being long term residents of the town itself says just about as much for their competence as it does for Starlight's manipulative tendencies, they were conceptually "happy" not asking these questions....

 

3. Starlight's "control bit" and quite possibly her entire obsession with magic as I have explained MANY times comes from a direct result of her understanding as to how the world prioritizes those that wield it effectively and in her mind, (since I actually do headcanon for good characters) She thought that if she could use this magic effectively at it's conception she may have been able to catch up with her long lost friend or that her being able to use the magic in general was the end all for how the social structure of pony importance worked in general, she got deep into using it because she genuinely disagreed with the sentiment that made her so obsessed with learning it herself, this sentiment is about the social hierarchy and importance of "magic wielders" more or less and not the magic itself, she wanted to genuinely seperate others from having to make personal concessions for not being as "up to snuff" as other ponies, because that is what she knows is capable of happening because of these "special talents"... She uses magic to control because she doesn't want to feel helpless herself, and if she can keep others under control she won't have to make these personal concessions ever again.

 

4. If there was EVER a pony deserving of her successes and vengeful vindication through the destruction of these, it was DEFINITELY Starlight, Starlight never invited the Mane 6 to "Our Town" they show up randomly via instructions of some little magic map, and start to begin investigated it's political infrastructure based off their own intuition, there really is nothing to prove that if they had not been looking for answers themselves that they wouldn't have not just initially been allowed to leave... Yeah we know Starlight sees Twi and it becomes her goal to confirm an alicorn, but they asked to see the vault, they made it their mission to try to get to the bottom of what was going on there, and up to that point they were welcomed as guests and given crappy muffins to enjoy, not force assimilated by some brainwashing film or whatever, yeah AFTER they tried to step on Starlight's toes, Starlight put them in a room for seemingly causing anarchy in Our Town by making her followers go against the towns philosophy.. who knows what would happen if Starlight just let these ponies go? They would probably come back with an army to destroy everything she worked so hard at building?

 

5. When Starlight seeks revenge against Twilight and her friends she doesn't do this with the intention of "ending the world" she does this with the intention of ending a single friendship circle? So they can feel like she did when 1. She lost Sunburst (obviously) which makes her backstory make MORE sense in this situation bc she's proving part of her point about special abilities ending friendships by ruining friendships with special abilities. 2. So they can understand the loss of everything that matters most to them and EVERYTHING that they covet being taken away from them, but even this isn't even completely true, because if Starlight had succeeded at altering time in any one if these dystopias, they would have no recollection of what they had even lost, it's not like they get to keep all these memories? It's not like they have to feel the hurt from losing their true friendships? She's just preventing them from ever happening... At the end, when Twilight takes Starlight with her, to this dystopian wasteland that is left of Equestria, DO YOU NOT SEE Starlight's reaction? She doesn't want to end the world? She wants to make it better in her mind? She didn't want that to happen, she just wanted to remove Twilight Sparkle and her friends from being an ideological threat in concept in part of this new world? She wanted to make the world better through equality, not destroy it...? 

 

6. Starlight studied all these spells and had a genuine idea for what she could do to change Equestria for the better, these plots weren't for simply "revenge" or because she "lOvES ChAOs wooo" or because she simply wanted to become more magically powerful? She genuinely did what she did with purpose and conviction not just outright malice? When she says, "everything else I said was true, the only way to be happy is if we're all equal" or when she says "no I stopped them from bullying because we all should be equal, stopping the rainboom is just a bonus". She believes in this philosophy, she just as I've explained before, if she were to adhere to it herself that would add a lot of complications but ultimately contradict the purpose in why she is doing what she is doing. Starlight sacrifices everything BUT her magic to live in this little podunk nothing town in the middle of BFE, and she's sacrificed her time, any luxuries she did have, she's genuinely doing a lot to mobilize for this philosophy she's trying to spread, this did not come without her own hard work and sacrifice, something Twilight utterly invalidated in 2 episodes so she could feel accomplished as the princess of friendship.

 

I'm not going to justify Starlight's obvious lies, but I'm going to say there were objective reasons for some of them, Starlight is by far THE LEAST evil villain of all of My Little Pony, probably the entire franchise, being cunning doesn't add to the malice of someone's intentions, people act like personal competence always is supposed to be attributed to common sense, ummm Starlight has literally been taught from Filly to full grown mare up to this point that magic is the way, it's how she's taught herself? One could argue by extension she's breaking the chains of others that have her claimed inherently that she can't escape, but the point is her reformation... She just gets even better, we get to see that it isn't flawed intention that causes Starlight to make these mistakes, it's flawed thinking... If anything these mistakes should "humanize her" not start up a witch hunt against her because she's been inherently led to think differently than other ponies? Them giving her a chance makes the most sense, but I can give you all these reasons separately as I'm getting way off topic on the MLP gens post lol...

 

There's just a lot to suggest that Starlight may have never been "evil" on its face, rather misguided and prone to a different belief system that was self justified and by her own emotional competence and experiences... Starlight knows little of Hearrhswarming or the Wonderbolts yet, she can change one of Starswirls spells? She had her own intentions, her own interests, her own priorities, she didn't do what she did merely for power, she just couldn't give up her power to achieve what she wanted

"Starlight Glimmer, a MORAL, retrospective..."

[Props Valroa 25,982]

14 minutes ago, J.J said:

The argument isnt that she didn't know what she was doing, it's that she thought it was for the greater good, she wasn't getting a little "head rush" like "yeees yeees the power, they all obey me" no, she was just a bit smug bc she was pretty proud that she was accomplishing what she genuinely thought was right for Equestria

That's what I am saying, and that is exactly what makes it psychotic. Other villains were like "I have the power, obey me!", she wasn't, and that's what made her even more conniving and threatening for a villain. Her power and abilities was never explained either, where did she get it from? We'll never know. Bad writing.

[J.J 918]

1 minute ago, Props ValRoa said:

That's what I am saying, and that is exactly what makes it psychotic. Other villains were like "I have the power, obey me!", she wasn't, and that's what made her even more conniving and threatening for a villain. Her power and abilities was never explained either, where did she get it from? We'll never know. Bad writing.

See the first point in my moral retrospective, she cant accomplish what she thinks is for the greater good without the means to do so ...

[Props Valroa 25,982]

Moments ago, J.J said:

See the first point in my moral retrospective, she cant accomplish what she thinks is for the greater good without the means to do so ...

And so she did the next best thing. Finding willing subjects that were weak and had low self-esteem. Preying on their fears - and then when granted the possibility, she dangerously messed with the timeline for her own ideological desires. 

[J.J 918]

9 minutes ago, Props ValRoa said:

And so she did the next best thing. Finding willing subjects that were weak and had low self-esteem. Preying on their fears - and then when granted the possibility, she dangerously messed with the timeline for her own ideological desires. 

You don't know anything about the background of the ponies from Our Town, you are head canoning the worst possible scenario to demonize Starlight, I'm not going to justify her altering time, but she genuinely didn't believe she would end the world by ending one circle of friends, after all she knows nothing of their former triumphs, they were literal strangers that showed up and destroyed everything she built over the course of (x) amount of time....

So we're treating the ponies of Our Town like they are helpless and mindless... Noted... Maybe that's why they rushed to a pony that so "cruelly enslaved them" lol to help them host a celebration 

[Props Valroa 25,982]

1 minute ago, J.J said:

You don't know anything about the background of the ponies from Our Town, you are head canoning the worst possible scenario to demonize Starlight, I'm not going to justify her altering time, but she genuinely didn't believe she would end the world by ending one circle of friends, after all she knows nothing of their corner triumphs, they were literal strangers that showed up and destroyed everything she built over the course of (x) amount of time....

So we're treating the ponies of Our Town like they are helpless and mindless... Noted... Maybe that's why they rushed to a pony that so "cruelly enslaved them" lol to help them host a celebration 

Removing their cutie marks, they likely didn't know that they were not going to be capable of magic without their cutie marks, were they? And they seemed very scared of Starlight, so perhaps they were willing...up to a point, and when they were powerless, they now were truly scared and couldn't flee.

Where would they go without their cutie marks? Starlight kept their cutie marks in a vault that they couldn't break on their own. 

What she did was cruel and unusual. There is no justifying it no matter how good of an intention she had. 

[J.J 918]

6 minutes ago, Props ValRoa said:

Removing their cutie marks, they likely didn't know that they were not going to be capable of magic without their cutie marks, were they? And they seemed very scared of Starlight, so perhaps they were willing...up to a point, and when they were powerless, they now were truly scared and couldn't flee.

Where would they go without their cutie marks? Starlight kept their cutie marks in a vault that they couldn't break on their own. 

What she did was cruel and unusual. There is no justifying it no matter how good of an intention she had. 

I'm not trying to justify it? I'm trying to explain it. So there's a way to justify ANYTHING that ANY of the other villains did? Starlight should be punished because she's inherently smarter but actually has the ability to feel remorse and not need to do so in the wake of mercy? Looked like they broke the vault "on their own" during their rebellion to me without any help from the mane 6, or did you forget that?

Blame Starlight for a lot, but NOT their lack of security, confidence or intelligence, they lacked that to begin with, that's the ONLY reason they would have chosen to give up something they know inherently makes them special for a random unicorn they don't know in the first place... And like I said, some may have even had great lives, and said, "this unicorn makes a lot of sense to me..." I'm going to hear her out..."  They are to blame for not asking questions, there is a good quote about this with a people not being mindful of their government being complicit to it's tyranny, there are many actually

[Props Valroa 25,982]

@J.J

We are not discussing other villains here. We are discussing Starlight. I would gladly discuss other villains in other places, but this is about Starlight. The ponies were complacent and weak minded, yes, but in the end, they were abused by Starlight - who is responsible for organizing the whole idea. Starlight's cutie mark swapping and removal ability is one of the more dangerous things in the show. Sure, you may destroy the world, but Starlight? She had the capacity, and the intent to define what the world was, through how she sought out to be in charge of how society should run - which goes against the natural order of the world. Ponies aren't mean to be equal. They are meant to pursue their own individuality and their own types of magic. Starlight's ideology is the antithesis to what occurs in the nature of the world, and she had more than enough power to back it up.

The town was simply too small for her power. She needed to have a massive city or something dedicated to her ideology. She has the largest power level of any other character in the show with the exception of Discord, Twilight, and the Alicorns. 

Bad writing. 

[J.J 918]

2 minutes ago, Props ValRoa said:

@J.J

We are not discussing other villains here. We are discussing Starlight. I would gladly discuss other villains in other places, but this is about Starlight. The ponies were complacent and weak minded, yes, but in the end, they were abused by Starlight - who is responsible for organizing the whole idea. Starlight's cutie mark swapping and removal ability is one of the more dangerous things in the show. Sure, you may destroy the world, but Starlight? She had the capacity, and the intent to define what the world was, through how she sought out to be in charge of how society should run - which goes against the natural order of the world. Ponies aren't mean to be equal. They are meant to pursue their own individuality and their own types of magic. Starlight's ideology is the antithesis to what occurs in the nature of the world, and she had more than enough power to back it up.

The town was simply too small for her power. She needed to have a massive city or something dedicated to her ideology. She has the largest power level of any other character in the show with the exception of Discord, Twilight, and the Alicorns. 

Bad writing. 

I agree with the facts surrounding the statement but a lot of it is actually what make it good writing? Did we want another, "I'm so powerful, I want you to bend to my will" type of simplicity in another villain? I thought she had more philosophical edge to her than the literal god of chaos who continually proves to be one dimensional himself... But like you said "for another topic." 

She had a difference of perspective it was just held up by ",somewhat shallow back story" that you have to head Canon the details of her life between her being a filly and her being a full grown mare...look dude, she is my second favorite as a villain the show for many unique reasons, she's not a slouch, she had more capability in her premeditated resolve than ponies with literal chaos magic and alicorn magic and Tirek with all of it combined... Her intelligence being a weapon with her raw talent makes her a remarkable villain 

Good writing, people just don't like their favorite characters being dwarfed, watch Fairy Tail, it's just part of the universe, there's someone out there you don't know about that can do things you can't comprehend

[Props Valroa 25,982]

@J.J

Her villainy and cruelty as a villain, as well as her ideology of a whole was very interesting to me. She'll always be a well liked character of mine, but as someone who likes her character - I think her backstory was poorly written and did not serve her character well at all.

[Ring Team 119]

On 2022-12-12 at 9:17 PM, abrony-mouse said:

Ok first off, that was an incredible post! 

However, the big difference between MLP and Steven Universe is that MLP is written by a collection of writers on a theme and NOT as a cohesive whole. Starlight, like all the ponies, is a character-beat and not a character. Starlight's character-beat is OP fragile anti-hero and I absolutely love the delivery of that but ofc half the time (and especially when she's not the focus) her character makes no sense. 

The worst thing about Starlight was her redemption, as you say. But can't you see some value in the villain portrayal and the reformed character portrayal as separate things? 

I can agree with a great deal of what you say though - MLP did manage to be pretty coherent, and much of what you say makes sense as a criticism. I certainly think she was a base-breaker. The thing is - Kelly Sheridan delivered, and the writers wrote great eps for her. She was one of the best things about S5 and S6 for me. The loss to coherence was more than made up with delivery in other areas.

I think that's the root of most problems Friendship is Magic had: They have a bunch of writers, but there's not one cohesive direction, which is a pity, because some episodes suggested that idea in a way you can't stop thinking about it.

The villain portrayal and reformed character portrayal cannot be separate because it's one single character, especially if there's gonna be a certain narrative ambition. The real deal here is how coherent this is in a character who's meant to evolve. For example, Moises from Prince of Egypt. At the beginning of the film he's like a spoiled kid with so many privileges. And over the movie he slowly changes, to a point where, after discovering who he really is and having a hard time dealing with it, he embraced his roots and became a better person.

Or how about Tony Stark? I'm not too familiar with Marvel, but one thing that the first Iron Man film did great was to show the cause and effect of Tony's actions, making him reflecting on himself and, at the end, he decided to build his own suit to destroy what he built.

If the respective writers of Iron Man and Prince of Egypt could do this to their respective main characters, I don't see why Josh Haber and other writers couldn't do the same thing to Starlight.

That doesn't mean all her episodes are bad. Out of all her chapters where she focuses on manipulating someone or everyone, I enjoyed three of them because they're not about that: The beginning of the end, The ending of the end and A Hearth’s Warming tail. These episodes don't portray Starlight as the usual selfish character, they show a character who legitimately wants to do the right thing by actions instead of intentions and these episodes are great. It's a pity that two of them happened right at the end, but hey, better later than never, right?

[Castle Bleck 19,164]

1 hour ago, Props ValRoa said:

Her villainy and cruelty as a villain, as well as her ideology of a whole was very interesting to me. She'll always be a well liked character of mine, but as someone who likes her character - I think her backstory was poorly written and did not serve her character well at all.

Same here. I mostly like her, except in The Cutie Re-Mark.

[North Star 4,486]

1 hour ago, Ring Team said:

The villain portrayal and reformed character portrayal cannot be separate because it's one single character, especially if there's gonna be a certain narrative ambition.

they shouldn't be separate, because they're one character. But, honestly, did the kiddies notice that in G1 when the animated series rebooted the comics? In G3 the entire setting was up for grabs, never mind the characters.  

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The real deal here is how coherent this is in a character who's meant to evolve

That's what people want when they're engaging with your world and characters, yes.

 

1 hour ago, Ring Team said:

If the respective writers of Iron Man and Prince of Egypt could do this to their respective main characters, I don't see why Josh Haber and other writers couldn't do the same thing to Starlight.

Honestly, the team did a decent job, considering neither Iron Man or the Prince of Egypt were delivered using a format geared towards incoherent fun, like MLP was. I place the responsibility for that squarely on Lauren Faust. You can just tell that she cared about her story beyond what was reasonable :3 

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Out of all her chapters where she focuses on manipulating someone or everyone, I enjoyed three of them because they're not about that: The beginning of the end, The ending of the end and A Hearth’s Warming tail. 

Those are amazing eps that speak for themselves :3  Other than Hearth's Warming, they are not the most Starlighty of eps, but she fits in all of them.

 

2 hours ago, Props ValRoa said:

I think her backstory was poorly written and did not serve her character well at all.

it needed a hay of a lot more development!

[North Star 4,486]

On 2022-12-11 at 5:55 PM, Ring Team said:

 

 

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It’s an insidious result for a character that is supposed to redeem herself. Not just for Starlight, but for Sunburst, maybe even more so for Sunburst. This is supposed to be the pony Starlight values most. So, if she ends up manipulating someone who’s supposed to be her best friend, it’s not because of any of that, it’s because she needs him as an excuse to make everything revolving around her, to feel better about herself and for selfish reasons.

What I mean by this is that in Friendship is Magic we got several episodes where Starlight refuses to consider other alternative options apart from magic without thinking that this might backfire. And nobody in the show questioned her, everyone is completely superstitious to her. Whenever Discord received suspicious looks from her friends, it’s because he was a villain in season 2, that makes sense. But the show doesn’t apply the same logic to Starlight.  Not only it sacrifices the artistic intent of the character that was established in the end of season 5, but it also severely devalues the artistic intent of the show in a degenerate way. The show Friendship is Magic is about learning the values of friendship. Trying to achieve that with a manipulative selfish questionable main character who doesn’t want to change does a disservice to the show.

It’s not that trying to give a plausible reason of why Starlight is like this is a bad idea. But you can’t give her story reasons and then do it half-assed. We’re never given a good reason why we should root for her, especially after what she has done in the show, which lead us to a very distasteful character in the end. Even with all this, the show tries so hard to make you feel sorry for her in ways that we’re not supposed to, which is one of the reasons why this character doesn’t work. The show feels lost in how it wants to view her because her actions conflict with her goal. And I think Friendship is Magic is too forgiving on her, to the point where even TV Tropes called her as “the most base breaking character in the show”.

 

Now, Starlight’s topic has been discussed to death in the fandom since 2015. And I’d be here all day if I try to take these arguments here. Go google her and you’ll read several arguments from both sides.

But all I’m gonna say is this: At the end of the day, I have a hard time believing that the Starlight we saw in All bottled up, Rock solid friendship, Uncommon bond and Road to friendship is the same unicorn that wanted to redeem herself at the end of Cutie re-mark. After finishing The last problem, I didn’t find her redemption arc pretty engaging, rewarding or even remotely satisfying. This isn’t something exclusive of Every little thing she does, it affected many of her episodes. There’s even a 2019 short where Starlight actively manipulates Twilight.

I’m not saying Starlight should never show any weaknesses or emotions, because that would be silly. A character without human flaws is a bad character. But the specific weaknesses she’s given here and their place in the show don’t sync up with the rest of the character.

That’s reason enough to complain, but, why do people still discuss about this issue with arguments from both sides when, as an industry, we get animated films and animated TV shows with bad scripts more often than not? Well, because people love MLP for the characters.

Often I read someone defending Starlight that “these are flaws. and while they are also essential parts of characters, flaws are not the entire character. There are weaknesses, strengths, flaws, personalities, morals, and more”. I have two problems with this argument.

1. Most of her choices weren’t little mistakes or flaws. There’s an episode called Road to friendship from season 8 where Starlight travels with Trixie. When they met in season 6, Trixie told her that this wagon is her home, her only home. What does Starlight do in Road to Friendship? She sells Trixie’s wagon, Trixie cries and then Starlight gets mad at her because of that, to the point where she accusses her of loving her wagon more than her.

 

Okay, that's not a charming little mistake, that is a dick move. And there are many times where she does stuff like that in the 4 last seasons, something where she's supposed to be responsible, but it's not like a funny little mistake or something clumsy gets in the way. She made a choice and they're usually very horrible choices. Keep in mind that actions define a character. It’s not “little flaws” that get in the way, it’s trying as hard as she can to have nothing to do with redemption, even if she got a chance at the end of season 5.

2. You are supposed to root for her. You’re supposed to want her to get better and, in the end, I didn’t want to, I thought she was horrible.

And that’s not to say that you shouldn’t ever write new characters for a popular show, but a new character badly written is far worse than not giving the show new characters.

I’m sure this comes as a surprise to practically nobody, but, it really does seem to be a product of mismanagement and deadlines.

 

A villain who wants to get better is an interesting idea for an animated TV show. But I do not think the current execution is anywhere near what it needs to be to be fun or to catch on. The show has an identity crisis with Starlight. Does it want her to be a character who wants to compromise with a main goal or does it want her to be a manipulative selfish villain like she was in the past? I have no idea why Josh Haber wanted to go to that direction when other approaches could have been more compelling, especially after Luna Eclipsed, Crusaders of the Lost Mark and the movie from 2017.

So, final lessons for bringing narrative to a long standing series. Just because you want to add narrative to the series doesn’t mean you have to shoehorn a new character that has to earn her place. And keep in mind everything you’ve established about the show in the past, even little details.

Just because she apologized once doesn’t stop her from making the same mistake again.

For everyone, I hope this helps as a reminded to stay aware and vigilant. Friendship is Magic has tons of great details that makes us appreciate something about ourselves. But every idealistic series like this one carries the potential for misuse. It happened to Friendship is Magic and it happened to Overwatch. And it’s on us, as a community, to do what we can to stop that misuse.

Take care

 

 

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Josh Haber

Yep, definitely not my fave writer. Secrets and Pies and Last Laugh...

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Let’s start by talking about her most noticeable character feature: Her power. Starlight Glimmer is by far the most powerful character in the show. In the two parts of Cutie Map, Starlight has proven to control many ponies at the same time and, with concerning ease, she can take away the cutie marks, as it’s nothing, completely rewriting the established rules and lore about cutie marks. If that power came from a dark amulet like in Magic Duel from season 3, the story would be fine, but the problem is that Starlight can do that, on her own, and that’s a problem. It severely invalidates the personal aspect and the point of having a cutie mark the way it was established in season 1. When you have a talent, you perfected it and you make a living with your own talent and effort, that doesn’t matter anyway because Starlight is gonna take that away from you whenever she wants and however she wants. And I think it shouldn’t have been this way. It’s like painting the face of God. Better yet, it’s like playing God. You shouldn’t give that amount of power to one single character.

This is a broader problem with the show, and most fantasy stories which prioritize story over lore. Harry Potter is ridiculous for this. Starlight's power level is not the worst example of dud lore in the show - not by a long way. Secret of My Excess is a good example of sacrificing lore for a fun story point. The question is, do her powers make for fun stories or not? And the answer to that is - well yup in many cases. A Royal Problem is a great use of her power. Mind controlling the Mane 6 like that in Every Little Thing She Does was also pretty fun in the ep itself. For that matter, her inexplicable power to remove cutie marks was insanely enjoyable when she was a villain. The points you raise are hypothetical problems which a fanfic writer might have to deal with, but which in all probability you just ignore or work around in order to have a fun story. I'm writing a fic in which one of the ponies is a telepathic unicorn. I hadn't realise just how insanely useful that power could be. But I'm just not going to have her do the logical thing and use that power all the time in order to allow for fun story points to happen. Ofc that does diminish the realism a bit, but it's a balance - super OP powerful unicorns are fun and realism is also fun.

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It also didn’t make sense that, for someone who’s supposed to become an integral part of the show, she only got 2 episodes out of 26 in the fifth season. When “Make New Friends but Keep Discord” came out and it ended with the main characters in a party, I was one of the few people who asked “shouldn’t they be chasing Starlight? She might cause more problems”. Keep in mind that the first episode ended with Starlight running away, which presented a perfect excuse for Twilight and her friends to go after her. It’s not an impossible idea. Back then, a couple of people answered me (in a very condescending sassy way, I must add) that “we can have other types of episodes, they can make later another episode of Starlight, this is a slice of life TV show”. And I’d agree if it wasn’t for the fact that we never got an episode about Starlight until the very end.

And, even if she came back in the end, her reasons why she’s evil are shockingly irrational, let alone for a character who’s supposed to be important. It turns out that the main reason why Starlight was manipulating, brainwashing many towns and many innocent ponies and swapping and extracting cutie marks like she was God… was because her best friend moved away when she was a kid

Ah, yes, the redemption arc. So, first off, as a villain she was built up just fine. Very mysterious and creepy and with a villain motive that seemed to make sense - differences = arguments so equality is good. Her running away into the caves was a bit silly as a reason not to pursue, but just about swallowable and clearly if she was a recurrent villain she needed to escape. Her redemption was ofc rushed. Stygian/Pony of Shadows and NMM were also rushed. The thing is - the sudden appearance of Starlight was sinister and epic - that would have been diminished if we'd had more stories about her, and what could the stories have said? They wouldn't have fitted with the format of the show very well as it was more dealing with the massive implications of s4 and the completion of Twi's first arc. They couldn't drop in on Starlight villaining like they did in S9 with Grogar/Discord. The final ep too was not about her redemption but about struggling against the villain and defeating her - the redemption has to be tacked on if it's going to be included in the ep. None of that justifies the rush-job, but still you can't always get the space you need as a writer to develop certain points. As for the reason rather than its execution in the ep, as a few people have said, it is actually one of the better villainy reasons, as befits a 'pony gone wrong' story (rather than intrinsic evil like Discord). Starlight was hurt because she lost her bestie who was more talented (in one respect) than her and was unable to deal with that humiliation. To protect herself from future hurt she used her considerable talents to force friendships and constructed a justification for that which corresponds with her warped view of friendship. It's a pretty common thing immature people (kids) do when they are hurt by their friends and can lead to an unbalanced personality in maturity.

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3. The stakes were so nebulous that it’s hard to be engaged with Cutie remark, especially if you know how it ends.

The spell itself is pretty silly, yes. Most timey wimey shenanigans lose my interest. On the other hoof, it did provide a fun platform for fan-fic worlds - Crystal dystopia, Changeling dystopia and Night dystopia were pretty awesome. Also foal Dashie eating popcorn and enjoying the fireworks show was fun.

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5. Twilight has no reason to empathize with Starlight.

No properly given reason in the ep, I agree. But if there is one pony who would understand the importance of placing ponies over rationalisations it is Twi. As for empathising with the hurt feelings of friends you have left behind, Twi does that in the amazing Amending Fences where she literally plays the role of a sort of appeasing Sunburst to Moondancer.

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6. Her being a new main character doesn’t add much to the show. She’s a solution to a non-existing problem.

What the hay!? There's a huge problem. The Mane 6 had completed their arcs. Without a new character to develop the show has lost one of its best features - following the characters as they pursue their hopes and dreams. Having Twi play mentor to Starlight is story-writing 101.

The CMCs parodied this in one ep which is one of the meta-est lines in the show, which happens in S6 when Twi is doing this exact thing to Starlight:

Bulk Biceps: Oh, right. Uh, well, my cutie mark is a dumbbell, but I've lifted every dumbbell in Ponyville!

Scootaloo: [nervously] Have you tried lifting other things?

Bulk Biceps: You mean, not dumbbells?

Sweetie Belle: Yeah!

Apple Bloom: Yeah!

Bulk Biceps: Yeah!

Bulk Biceps: Oof! I mean... no. I hadn't thought of that. You guys are awesome!

[crunch]

Bulk Biceps: But... what happens when I run out of other stuff?

Sweetie Belle: ...I guess you could teach other ponies to lift things?

Anyway you allow the familiar character with the completed arc stay in the narrative for the fans while allowing a new character to follow in her hoof-steps.

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The most logical guess I can make is that it could have been just a scheduling and pipeline problem.

Yup, practical stuff like this will have contributed to the rush-job.

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Now let’s talk about her approach since season 6. While her re-introduction wasn’t bad, it was very boring and uninspiring after 5 minutes, because we got a Starlight being socially awkward while she’s learning about friendship, like Twilight in the early seasons, which doesn’t make sense because she managed to convince the filly Rainbow Dash to not trust Twilight back in Cutie Re-mark.

Again, while the execution was definitely poor, the reason Starlight did what she did (ie the hurt) and the methods she used to address them (the rationalisations) would leave her with inferior social skills - when it comes to genuine friendships, Starlight remains the poor lost lil foal that lost her bestie. Her social awkwardness makes sense in light of that. The relapse in Every Little Thing also makes sense in light of that (and the execution there was much better in general and that ep is also just fun). I also disagree that it makes the Mane 6 powerless - Starlight is explicitly meant to be comparably powerful as Twilight and the show has built up Twi's power level over many eps to establish that the Mane 5 are defenceless against a unicorn with that much power (she's the Princess afterall), but ofc the magic of friendship is most powerful of all and, as Twi's besties, they are essential parts of that.

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Even if she does horrible things many times, there are literally no consequences of her actions.

I do agree that there should be more suspicion. However, there is a HUGE difference between her and Discord. The latter is portrayed as intrinsically evil (although yes, he can be kinda changed), while the former is a PONY and therefore intrinsically good (yes, I know the show goes a bit more liberal on this and has an intrinsically evil pony in Cosey, but the overwhelming portrayal of ponies is that they are good beings). 

Ok will need to leave this there for now, but this is fun :3 haven't done a deep dive on pony stuff for a while.

[Ring Team 119]

On 2022-12-13 at 8:21 PM, Props ValRoa said:

It's clear to me Starlight knew what she was doing to those ponies. It was psychotic and cruel. 

That's what makes her scary. If she started a huge cult just because her friend move away, imagine what she could have done if she lost a plushie or a pencil.

Besides, if she really cares about Sunburst, why didn't she write some letters for him instead? Why couldn't she just ask him what his new place is so she can visit him and send him letters so she can have fun communicating with him? But no, he moved away and that's where we draw the line.

And, even if she says she cares about him, that doesn't seem to be the case with Uncommon Bond. ¿Is she happy that Sunburst makes new friends? No. She treats it like a personal attack and manipulates her best friend just so he can stay with her. That is insidious. So, if she does all this questionable stuff to her best friend, it's not because she's her best friend, it's because she loves being self centered.

Writing selfish characters isn't a bad idea, but this doesn't fit with the fact that Sarlight considers Sunburst her best friend. A best friend is someone you absolutely respect and admire, not someone you want to trick.

Edited December 16, 2022 by Ring Team

[Ring Team 119]

Normally I don't post on a one year thread, but yesterday I've discovered this video. I haven’t watched it at the time because back then I wasn’t paying attention to the show. I was watching better shows, but I fully agree on this.

If you have a character that says “I have good intentions” before brainwashing Twilight’s friends, some random Ponyville ponies and manipulated who’s supposed to be her best friend out of spite, then your thoughts and words are proven to be lies.

Intentions mean nothing when your actions are consistently negative.

[Megas 27,052]

On 2023-07-03 at 1:06 AM, Ring Team said:

Normally I don't post on a one year thread, but yesterday I've discovered this video. I haven’t watched it at the time because back then I wasn’t paying attention to the show. I was watching better shows, but I fully agree on this.

If you have a character that says “I have good intentions” before brainwashing Twilight’s friends, some random Ponyville ponies and manipulated who’s supposed to be her best friend out of spite, then your thoughts and words are proven to be lies.

Intentions mean nothing when your actions are consistently negative.

Lily Peet is literally the last who should get to have a say on morality. And using one of the most vindictive, manipulative and abusive people in the fandom to boost your argument isn’t doing it any favors 

[GodlyWolf 1,678]

Simple and to the point. No Mary sues or Gary stues. Don't be afraid to give them flaws.

 

No I didn't take the time to read because DEAR LORD!!!