Is Cadance the ultimate alicorn?

[ManaMinori 4,143]

The MLP fandom, and quite frequently the MLP official canon itself seem to take Princess Celestia and Luna as all mighty supreme goddesses. For instance, we even see frequent instances of Twilight where she uses Celestia's name in place of "God", such as in the episode "Celestial Advice", where Twilight speaks and says "I can't just sent her off to Celestia (God) knows where without thinking it through", to which Celestia herself responds that she was not aware that she was an expression. Rarity twice uses Celestias name as a replacement for God, such as in the episode "Sisterhooves Social" where she states: "as Celestia (God) as my witness, I shall never be sisterless again!" Or in the MLP movie where she is quoted as saying "Oh, for Celestia's (God's) sake!"

 

But one character that I never see around in these discussions of alicorns being gods or not is Cadance, oddly enough. Celestia and Luna are always held to the highest regards by both ponies and fandom. But why not Cadance? While it is pounded in our heads with a sledgehammer time and time again that Celestia and Luna are top tier- they raise the sun and moon, while at the same time being held in highest regards by their subjects (at least, Celestia is, moreso....), both are fallible and fall to villains, and Celestia herself is outclassed in magical power by Twilight, who creates a "new magic"- the magic of friendship, in Magical Mystery Cure, again, we often see Cadance shifted to the background....but why? Isn't the staple of any solid friendship the element of love? Cadance's element? 

 

In the journal of the Two Sisters (which was canonized in "Scare Master"), a passage from Celestia herself states that “Alicorns stood for everything Equestria was founded upon: love, harmony, and friendship. Interesting how love is the first key element at play here.....Because you cant have a foundation for a relationship between anyone - familial, friendship, or romantic- without the element of love taken into consideration, and without that element, there is no harmony, and without harmony, there is no magic of friendship. While there are a multitude of religions and mythos with their own Gods that MLP takes inspiration and reference to across its episodes, if we were to look at this from a Christian viewpoint, (specifically in 1 John 4:8) the verse clarifies that "God is Love", which I'll reference in defense of this theory. What other love related alicorn do we know in this cute pastel pony series? None, that I know of....

 

And....if Cadance being the pony of Love, and God (who IS love) is true, then this could also explain why Flurry Heart herself was born an alicorn....not so much due to the perfect off chance, one in a gazillion blend of genetics, but due to the fact that Flurry is essentially "God's" offspring....basically pony Jesus

[North Star 4,540]

Princess Can Dance

she can dance if she wants to.

she can stretch her pink behind

'cos she's candance and she can dance

and she's a friend of mine

 interesting take on love  

but I think that while Cadance's special talent is love, and she's a powerful and loving pony, she's shown to be frail at multiple times too. Celestia, on the other hoof, has led ponies for over a thousand years and studied under magical greats like Star Swirl. She and Luna also move celestial body. The only body Princess Candance moves is her own sweet booty. She can dance! She can dance! Everyone look at their hooves!

[Props Valroa 26,024]

Cadence to me doesn't really mean a whole lot. She should, but she doesn't. In the show they never did much with her. They never explained her backstory, or how she became an alicorn in the show. I wish they did more with her, but, I don't find a reason to consider her "the ultimate" alicorn. I'd say the Ultimate Alicorn is Celestia, for she controls the Sun, the sole reason why the world is livable. 

[Jesse Terrence 2,963]

I thought it was Cadence? As in the musical term? Given her name is in italian (Mi amore Cadenza) and could be translated as "Cadence my love" or "my love Cadence" I can only picture her name being Cadence.

Candance makes no sense to me. It sounds like a ginger teen trying to get her siblings in trouble and doesn't relate at all with her italian name.

Either way, we could address this "issue" to how in polytheist religions most gods and goddesses of love were usually minor deities or were outshined by gods or goddesses of the sun and the moon. This has a lot to do with the fact old societies didn't give much importance to the concept of love. Fertility was far more important since such societies were pragmatic regarding breeding. People getting married due love is kind of a modern thing. I guess we could trace the whole love over convenience to rrenaissance if not just a bit earlier. Given the mlp setting was most medieval oriented in the beginning, it only makes sense a deity of love is less relevant than those deities that can control day and night.

2 hours ago, Props ValRoa said:

Cadence to me doesn't really mean a whole lot. She should, but she doesn't. In the show they never did much with her. They never explained her backstory, or how she became an alicorn in the show. I wish they did more with her, but, I don't find a reason to consider her "the ultimate" alicorn. I'd say the Ultimate Alicorn is Celestia, for she controls the Sun, the sole reason why the world is livable. 

"It's all there in the instruction booklet", or more likely, the official books.

The Cadence we know was a pegasus that became an alicorn. Her backstory is a burning mess and it was better they never addressed it on the show. According to the books, she was a pegasus that grew in a lovely village, faced an evil enchantress and channeled the power of love through the evil amulet that enchantress wore and that's pretty much it. She became an alicorn for actually solving a problem (unlike Twilight who made a problem she later fixed, meaning she didn't really do anything to become an alicorn, lol). The IDW comics try to connect her to princess Mi Amore (yet another IDW OC), supposedly the former queen of the crystal empire. For a while people theorized Cadence was the reincarnation of Mi Amore due the love powers, but that's about it. They are as canon as kirin mane 6, robot shy and whatever you have seen in the IDW comics and gameloft game. The canon part is from the books (Pegasus Cadence raised by earth ponies and becoming an alicorn).

[Evil Pink One 12,964]

19 minutes ago, Jesse Terrence said:

I thought it was Cadence? As in the musical term? Given her name is in italian (Mi amore Cadenza) and could be translated as "Cadence my love" or "my love Cadence" I can only picture her name being Cadence.

Candance makes no sense to me. It sounds like a ginger teen trying to get her siblings in trouble and doesn't relate at all with her italian name.

Either way, we could address this "issue" to how in polytheist religions most gods and goddesses of love were usually minor deities or were outshined by gods or goddesses of the sun and the moon. This has a lot to do with the fact old societies didn't give much importance to the concept of love. Fertility was far more important since such societies were pragmatic regarding breeding. People getting married due love is kind of a modern thing. I guess we could trace the whole love over convenience to rrenaissance if not just a bit earlier. Given the mlp setting was most medieval oriented in the beginning, it only makes sense a deity of love is less relevant than those deities that can control day and night.

"It's all there in the instruction booklet", or more likely, the official books.

The Cadence we know was a pegasus that became an alicorn. Her backstory is a burning mess and it was better they never addressed it on the show. According to the books, she was a pegasus that grew in a lovely village, faced an evil enchantress and channeled the power of love through the evil amulet that enchantress wore and that's pretty much it. She became an alicorn for actually solving a problem (unlike Twilight who made a problem she later fixed, meaning she didn't really do anything to become an alicorn, lol). The IDW comics try to connect her to princess Mi Amore (yet another IDW OC), supposedly the former queen of the crystal empire. For a while people theorized Cadence was the reincarnation of Mi Amore due the love powers, but that's about it. They are as canon as kirin mane 6, robot shy and whatever you have seen in the IDW comics and gameloft game. The canon part is from the books (Pegasus Cadence raised by earth ponies and becoming an alicorn).

I disagree that twilight caused the mess.... It was Celestia who caused this mess XD.

Do you give a child a gun? Nodo you give a very powerful book to someone with so little information about it.... Celestia Says yes. XD

 

 

[Jesse Terrence 2,963]

1 minute ago, Kujamih said:

Do you give a child a gun?

Kony says you can and most likely should 

[EpicEnergy 22,072]

I don't see how Cadance's power is stronger than that of Twilight, Celestia, or Luna's. Also, the concept of alicorns being considered by ponies as deities is not one that I consider accurate.

[Props Valroa 26,024]

2 hours ago, Jesse Terrence said:

 

"It's all there in the instruction booklet", or more likely, the official books.

The Cadence we know was a pegasus that became an alicorn. Her backstory is a burning mess and it was better they never addressed it on the show. According to the books, she was a pegasus that grew in a lovely village, faced an evil enchantress and channeled the power of love through the evil amulet that enchantress wore and that's pretty much it. She became an alicorn for actually solving a problem (unlike Twilight who made a problem she later fixed, meaning she didn't really do anything to become an alicorn, lol). The IDW comics try to connect her to princess Mi Amore (yet another IDW OC), supposedly the former queen of the crystal empire. For a while people theorized Cadence was the reincarnation of Mi Amore due the love powers, but that's about it. They are as canon as kirin mane 6, robot shy and whatever you have seen in the IDW comics and gameloft game. The canon part is from the books (Pegasus Cadence raised by earth ponies and becoming an alicorn).

Yup. I've known of that - it should have been in the show. I don't understand how Cadence became leader of the Crystal Empire though...I never understood that. Is there something that I am missing?

[Jesse Terrence 2,963]

9 minutes ago, Props ValRoa said:

I don't understand how Cadence became leader of the Crystal Empire though...I never understood that. Is there something that I am missing?

That's why I say her backstory is a burning mess. The IDW comics tried to explain that through the Mi Amore princess stuff. Supposedly, Cadence should be from that very same dinasty and once the Crystal Empire reappeared she automatically took the throne as absurd as that might be. Let's be honest, they just pulled the whole crystal empire thing out of their.... rectum. Yeah, just to sell toys and add more princesses to the franchise. One can tell they didn't think her through, and up to that point the show was no longer running as Faust had fleshed it out. A canterlot wedding was the point where FiM was no longer Faust's FiM, and inconcistences started to rain from that point onwards.

So no, it's not that you're actually missing info as far as I know. It's just they didn't think through the whole empire thing and didn't expect adults to pay attention or even wonder what was going on. After all, the show itself was meant to be a 22 minutes long ad to sell plastic ponies anyway.

[Props Valroa 26,024]

@Jesse Terrence

Yes, exactly. If I had wrote it, I would have had Amore (the actual Amore) be found locked up somewhere by Sombra and after Sombra was defeated, Amore returns to power. There wouldn't be any flurry heart or marriage with Shining Armor, as that made no sense to me. 

And by Amore, I mean -

[RDDash 18,858]

Shining Armor or Cadence seems to be way more interesting then other Equestrian princesses because they feel cool.

[Jeric 46,834]

14 hours ago, ManaMinori said:

But why not Cadance?

The simplest in-universe explanation is that out of all the Princesses only one has been around for many generations without interruption. Cadance, Flurry, and Twilight are newer. Luna was away for quite a bit (her name isn’t as common an expression either). 

[Jeric 46,834]

Moments ago, RDDash said:

Shining Armor or Cadence seems to be way more interesting then other Equestrian princesses because they feel cool.

From a storytelling perspective they had a built-in advantage of being automatically more dynamic and fluid. They were not introduced with much backstory to anchor them, allowing the reader to craft away. By being married and starting a family it further played into a lot of potential scenarios that were not as likely to explore with Luna, Celestia, or Twilight. 
 

Plus … Princess of Love fits with Princess of Friendship like the Moon and Sun complement each other 

[Props Valroa 26,024]

@Jeric

How would you (as in, if you had an idea) explain how Cadence became the leader of the Crystal Empire despite it being gone for a thousand years since it was banished? I'm curious.

[Evil Pink One 12,964]

1 hour ago, Props ValRoa said:

@Jeric

How would you (as in, if you had an idea) explain how Cadence became the leader of the Crystal Empire despite it being gone for a thousand years since it was banished? I'm curious.

Well because celestia decree it. No one questions nanalestia right @Samurai Equine

[North Star 4,540]

huh, some thought provoking stuff from @Jesse Terrence That does sound like a cute story in the books, but also a little flat for becoming an alicorn. Twilight's alicorn powers were made part of her princess arc which is the main arc of the show, while Celestia and Luna are semi-divine horsey tribe leaders. What Cadence did there just seems like another magic trick, but maybe the book sells it a bit more (never been a fan of the books though, so unless that changes I'll probably never read it in full).

 In terms of the inception of Cadence, she was thought up after Season 2, so she's always been meant to be a Princess at least but pretty clear that she wasn't meant to be an alicorn or comparable to Celestia/Luna. Celestia sent her to look after Twily as a trusted member of Celestia's court. This is a pretty sensible idea of Cadence in my view, even though I am kinda biased towards Lauren's vision for the show.

So then we have the post s2 conception of Cadence which just doesn't add up. Nevermind with the earlier lore, it just doesn't make any sense. Why does she have comparable power to Celestia and Luna and what is her link to the Empire?

When lore doesn't make sense, fan-works and semi-official non-canon sorts of things step in. The comics hint at a connection with Amore and then you have the book Jesse mentions, but neither really explain either Cadence's power or connection to the Crystal Empire satisfactorily.

So this is where fans can come in and, using fan-goggles, I think the answers are as follows. Firstly, she has no prior connection to the Crystal Empire but is sent there because she is a respected member of Celestia's court whose talent is suitable to being a ruler of Crystal Ponies. She is also sent for her power. Secondly, the reason her power is comparable to Celestia and Luna. So, periodically ponies of exceptional power are born who become alicorns - nopony knows why, and only with discipline do they attain the longevity and power of a Celestia and Luna. This would be enough to explain Cadence, but additionally, as shown in the show, alicorn magic does not disappear and can be transferred to others, so when Luna was banished I think Celestia absorbed her power. Celestia would potentially be able to transfer this power to a trusted emissary like Cadence, especially if she was a natural born alicorn. 

Do natural-born alicorns contradict what happened with Twilight? Yes, in a way, but Twilight is one of the most exceptional unicorns to ever exist in terms of magical ability. She was not born an alicorn, but her power was comparable to one. The magic of harmony therefore made Twilight its chosen, and modified her form to suit.

[Splashee 28,537]

Here is a similar question: Is Prince Blueblood the ultimate unicorn? Both Prince Blueblood and Princess Cadance are royal, highest in their rank, and non-rulers of Equestria. Should one of them be the ultimate of .....? If you ask me, I would say no.

 

 

On 2023-01-09 at 3:58 PM, ManaMinori said:

"I can't just sent her off to Celestia (God) knows where without thinking it through", "as Celestia (God) as my witness, I shall never be sisterless again!", "Oh, for Celestia's (God's) sake!"

I am quite new to live chat using English, but I've learned very early on to use "Oh My Goodness" or "Oh My Gosh". It turned out that being safe was the best option every single time. For a TV show, it might be similar. But I don't really know. It is a guess.

[North Star 4,540]

24 minutes ago, Splashee said:

Is Prince Blueblood the ultimate unicorn?

in his own eyes maybe  

[Jesse Terrence 2,963]

9 hours ago, abrony-mouse said:

Twilight's alicorn powers were made part of her princess arc which is the main arc of the show

Problem with that is, she got her alicorn form from solving a problem she herself triggered (which contradicts lesson zero. She supposedly learned several things, including not casting magic lightly AND that solving a problem you caused with unnecessary magic is just bad). It wasn't even closely related to what she's supposed to be princess of if you come to think about it. All she did in that episode was suggest her friends what they should be really doing from previous knowledge (being show savvy, we could say it was meta knowledge). That's not very friendly, or at least not something worth an evolution.

Even more, what the hell does this "spell" is supposed to do, in the first place? It serves no actual purpose unless the spell was about making an unicorn turn into an alicorn. Literally, what effect does that spell have? Up to this point, all spells do something. There's a momentary time travel spell, even a spell that makes a moustache grow on your face. But this spell? When it was incomplete it switched cutiemarks and perhaps changed the collective memory of everyone (hinted by "this is what I've been doing since day one it appeared"). But the "correct" spell? Twilight literally countered the effects WITHOUT casting the completed correct spell. So, the spell doesn't even make sense. Why did she turn into an alicorn for this?

Magical Mystery Cure has to be one of the worst episodes in the entire show because it destroyed the whole alicornification arc due the terribly awful plot device used for it.

I think Cadence has a more valid reason to have ascended to princesshood compared with Twilight. Cadence saved a village and reformed a villain WITHOUT the elements of harmony nor actual help from others. She actually solved a situation and chenneled the concept she's a princess of. Twilight didn't.

[Evil Pink One 12,964]

8 hours ago, abrony-mouse said:

in his own eyes maybe  

Rember he has power.... He is in the school council

 

 

[Evil Pink One 12,964]

1 hour ago, Jesse Terrence said:

Problem with that is, she got her alicorn form from solving a problem she herself triggered (which contradicts lesson zero. She supposedly learned several things, including not casting magic lightly AND that solving a problem you caused with unnecessary magic is just bad). It wasn't even closely related to what she's supposed to be princess of if you come to think about it. All she did in that episode was suggest her friends what they should be really doing from previous knowledge (being show savvy, we could say it was meta knowledge). That's not very friendly, or at least not something worth an evolution.

Even more, what the hell does this "spell" is supposed to do, in the first place? It serves no actual purpose unless the spell was about making an unicorn turn into an alicorn. Literally, what effect does that spell have? Up to this point, all spells do something. There's a momentary time travel spell, even a spell that makes a moustache grow on your face. But this spell? When it was incomplete it switched cutiemarks and perhaps changed the collective memory of everyone (hinted by "this is what I've been doing since day one it appeared"). But the "correct" spell? Twilight literally countered the effects WITHOUT casting the completed correct spell. So, the spell doesn't even make sense. Why did she turn into an alicorn for this?

Magical Mystery Cure has to be one of the worst episodes in the entire show because it destroyed the whole alicornification arc due the terribly awful plot device used for it.

I think Cadence has a more valid reason to have ascended to princesshood compared with Twilight. Cadence saved a village and reformed a villain WITHOUT the elements of harmony nor actual help from others. She actually solved a situation and chenneled the concept she's a princess of. Twilight didn't.

Season 1 to 4 was solid enough for me for twilight to be a princess.. also controlling the elements is proof enough. Not everyone can use it.

[Jesse Terrence 2,963]

1 hour ago, Kujamih said:

Season 1 to 4 was solid enough for me for twilight to be a princess.. also controlling the elements is proof enough. Not everyone can use it.

Nah, it was too soon. She wasn't developed enough to become one. Let's face it, she became an alicorn early on because of marketing, not because of good writing. She should have remained an unicorn longer. The princess title was far too big for her by the end of season 3. It has been stated by the writers themselves that Magical Mystery Cure was supposed to be the end for the show, but Hasbro renewed for yet another season when they didn't expect it. That's why season 3 was rushed and season 4 was roaming around aimlessly.

Honestly, I would have loved if FiM had unicorn Twilight for more than half the show run. We literally had her as an alicorn for 2/3 and it was simply awkward. It was like that movie where this kid wishes to be a grown up and you see him the entire movie trying to be a grown up but he's simply too immature to be an actual adult and thus keeps messing up for most of the movie and just by the end he finally starts to behave more accordingly to his age just before he can finally revert the wish. Twilight felt out of place most of the show after season 3. Too immature to be an alicorn princess with an actual ruler role but too old to hang out with the rest of the mane 6.

Compare her to Cadence, for instance. Cadence was an actual princess and ruler just by when she was mature enough. Her behaviour matched that of an adult wise enough to take an actual leadership role. That only happened to Twilight way later in the show, and still Twilight wasn't fit to take on the role of Equestria's absolute ruler by season 9. The writers just made her skip a lot of character development to meet their own deadlines.

Edited January 11, 2023 by Jesse Terrence

[Evil Pink One 12,964]

5 minutes ago, Jesse Terrence said:

Nah, it was too soon. She wasn't developed enough to become one. Let's face it, she became an alicorn early on because of marketing, not because of good writing. She should have remained an unicorn longer. The princess title was far too big for her by the end of season 3. It has been stated by the writers themselves that Magical Mystery Cure was supposed to be the end for the show, but Hasbro renewed for yet another season when they didn't expect it. That's why season 3 was rushed and season 4 was roaming around aimlessly.

Honestly, I would have loved if FiM had unicorn Twilight for more than half the show run. We literally had her as an alicorn for 2/3 and it was simply awkward. It was like that movie where this kid wishes to be a grown up and you see him the entire movie trying to be a grown up but he's simply too immature to be an actual adult and thus keeps messing up for most of the movie and just by the end he finally starts to behave more accordingly to his age just before he can finally revert the wish. Twilight felt out of place most of the show after season 3. Too immature to be an alicorn princess with an actual ruler role but too old to hang out with the rest of the mane 6.

Compare her to Cadence, for instance. Cadence was an actual princess and ruler just by when she was mature enough. Her behaviour matched that of an adult wise enough to take an actual leadership role. That only happened to Twilight way later in the show, and still Twilight wasn't fit to take on the role of Equestria's absolute ruler by season 9. The writers just made her skip a lot of character development to meet their own deadlines.

Actually reuniting the two sisters should've been enough.... Playing a big roll on season 2 was enough, beating discord and chrysalis.

Season 3... Yeah saving the crystal pony was enough.what else..... Practically the first 2 episode of mlp was enough for her to have the right to be an alicorn in my book.

[Evil Pink One 12,964]

And again... They need money and again, their purpose are to sell toys. Was and always is. So its the writers fault for not doing their job that they were paid for by hasbro... And where will hasbro get their money? From views? Nope toys and what not other things i suppose the company get it from..... Magic the gathering i suppose. And transformers.

Moments ago, Kujamih said:

And again... They need money and again, their purpose are to sell toys. Was and always is. So its the writers fault for not doing their job that they were paid for by hasbro... And where will hasbro get their money? From views? Nope toys and what not other things i suppose the company get it from..... Magic the gathering i suppose. And transformers.

And advertisment from gak.

 

 

[Jesse Terrence 2,963]

41 minutes ago, Kujamih said:

Actually reuniting the two sisters should've been enough.... Playing a big roll on season 2 was enough, beating discord and chrysalis.

Season 3... Yeah saving the crystal pony was enough.what else..... Practically the first 2 episode of mlp was enough for her to have the right to be an alicorn in my book.

Not quite. She didn't do it on her own a single time. She beat Nightmare Moon thanks to the mane 6. As a matter of fact, the mane 6 reached out to her when Nightmare Moon appeared, not the other way around. Each one of them showed her what friendship was about, not the opposite. If it had been for her, she wouldn't have seek for their help and NMM would have won. Beating discord was a collaborative effort too. She just had the mcguffin in turn to fight back the chaos magic (the letters) and only because Tia sent them to her. No mane 6, no rainbow lasers, and definitively, no letters no mane 6. So this time Tia gave her the cheat codes to win. Beating Chrysalis wasn't her thing either. At the end Cadence and Shinning Armor blew her away with a love shockwave. Not Twilight's work. The mane 6 were inprisoned, actually. It was Chrysalis mistake to send Twilight to the crystal caves. We could say it was Chrysalis rescuing Cadence by sending Twilight, and then Cadence and Shinning blasting her off with love.

Now, the crystal pony thing, it was actually spike saving them, lol
Spike literally got the stained glass because he was the one that saved Twilight's sorry purple curple on that one

In retrospective, she always gets credit for what her family or friends do (or even her enemies).