movies/tv Mentioning the unmentionable: Portraying death in cartoons.

[Wingnut 7,018]

To the Moderator: I know that my brief mention of MLP here is technically off topic, but it is necessary as part of my effort to promote a general discussion about how death is portrayed in cartoons. 

Overall, death in TV Y programming is rare and usually referenced to by weasel words like saying someone “didn’t make it”. Due to censorship rules, terms like “death”, “die”, and “kill”, are to be avoided. That’s why the passing of Applejack's parents was related to us in such a subtle fashion. In Apple Family Reunion, Applejack verbally worried that some of her relatives may be too busy to attend the next family reunion but her body language tells a different tale. She was thinking of the other meaning of “not making it”. I thought the animation here was nicely done. See how Applejack's face fell as she took a moment to reflect on her deceased parents.  In my opinion, this is the most poignant event in the entire series. Her brief expression of sorrow promptly gave way to one of resolve. Applejack knows that each day is a gift and tomorrow is promised to no one. This is the real reason she was so determined to make this the most memorable reunion ever.

I am hard pressed to remember many other deaths in children’s programming. But I clearly recall a mention in Goof Troop. Talking to Max about his mother, Goofy said she “is amongst the stars now”, indicating she is dead. In Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends, it was openly revealed that Uncle Ben was slain by the burglar Peter Parker allowed to escape the day before. Peter learned, in the most tragic possible way, that “with great power comes great responsibility”. This is why he became Spider-Man.  The only other mention of death in a Y rated show I can think of off the top of my head is in the Alvin and the Chipmunks Christmas special. A boy named Tommy was battling a life-threatening illness and his sister expressed her despair by asking her parents, “What do you mean he might not make it?” Thankfully, Tommy made a full recovery. 

If it were televised today, the anime adaptation Star Blazers would probably be rated Y7. It was groundbreaking in that it showed the deaths of several key characters. I was always grateful to my mom for letting me watch a relatively mature cartoon as an 8 year-old. For the record, it was heavily edited so that gratuitous violence and bloodshed was not seen. But Captain Avatar’s on screen passing was one of the most touching moments I ever watched on TV as a kid.  Why are you laughing?  Stop laughing.  That was his name, it's not that funny.  Sheesh!

 

Have we composed ourselves?  Good.  A funeral in space was held for the many casualties suffered during a particularly brutal battle.  The Star Force continued its mission against all odds, in part, to honor their fallen comrades. Star Blazers also showed a Comet Empire pilot deliberately carry out a Kamikaze attack on the Argo. Broadcasting this was a ballsy move at a time when painful memories of World War II were still fresh in America ’s mind. A more conservative studio would’ve either cut the crash scene out and said “he flew off” or omitted this episode entirely. Because Star Blazers was generally upfront about the price paid in human lives, the editors of the show were never forgiven for claiming “Knox got out right behind you” when even a small child could tell there was no chance of escape.  Wildstar knew that Knox's claim that he would be able to get out on the other plane was a bald faced lie.  Hell, the music itself left no doubt that he died to protect earth! 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yU1frR9c5TY Jump to 4:10 to see the key scene.  Note the blood on Sandor's face too.  4Kids would never show that today!

When WEP released Voltron for North American audiences a few years later, serious anime aficionados criticized them for editing out virtually all fatalities. If Star Blazers could show some death, why couldn’t Voltron? But WEP went on to redeem themselves later by releasing a DVD which compares the Voltron you saw as a kid to the Voltron you didn’t see:  GoLion!

In fiction as well as real life, the loss of loved ones consistently serves to inspire and motivate. We see it from Applejack’s desire to throw the best family reunion ever to Peter Parker’s decision to become a crime fighter. I’m sure some of you have plenty of thoughts on this, so please don’t hesitate to share them.

Edited February 8, 2013 by Wingnut

[SilverStarApple 850]

Just about every death in Naruto made me feel. Well, most of them. Kimmimaro Kaguya was meh, and Ranmaru and the sword-guy just felt like Lightning-Zabuza and Haku. You know that thing in RPG video games where you'll fight an enemy, then later on you'll fight someone just like him, but the new guy will have different powers, be a recolour, and maybe have different tactics/fighting styles? That's what it felt like, watching Team Gai plus Naruto fight against Lightning Zabuza And Haku. You've fought Water Zabuza and Haku, and next week, we'll fight Fire Zabuza and Haku! Laaaame!

[Replicant 113]

I find it interesting that all of the deaths you described were meant to be significant deaths. Parents passing away, family, friends, etc. I think one of the reasons children's cartoons have to skirt the subject of death is because the situation is usually very serious or dramatic.

 

The only modern example I can think of a where children's cartoon candidly and openly shows death and violence is Regular Show. People get blown up, sliced in half, shot with actual guns that don't look or act like laser guns. This is significant-- can you remember a modern cartoon with real, working guns that shot bullets? If you can, you probably didn't see the bullets hit living people. Regular show is on early enough in the evening where kids over 10 are probably watching it. The deaths and injuries experienced by the characters aren't meant to be tragic or upsetting, though, so maybe that's why Regular Show can get away with so much. 

[duidamasterXD 9,627]

Most cartoons that I've seen go the route of heavily implying death, but keeping it ambiguous enough to probably go over the heads of most very young children. While it is certainly a very heavy subject, I think that some modern cartoons might do well to address it since it is very relevant, sadly even to the lives of kids. Interestingly enough though, by leaving the death of her parents as subtext, I think Apple Family Reunion became a much stronger episode than if they had outright said that her parents were dead. So perhaps there is some merit to implying death but not directly confronting it. I suppose it would depend on the cartoon. Without touching on his tragic origin Spider Man isn't nearly as powerful of a character.  

[Scootalove 10,689]

Well, besides Regular Show and Adventure Time portraying death. Dragonball Z and Naruto do the same, I guess since MLP has a very, childish audience i don't think we see any explainations of death.

[Wingnut 7,018]

Thanks for the feedback, guys.   I tried to Google information explaining the exact differences between what content is allowed in Y and Y7 rated programs respectively. Want to know something funny? This very thread came up on the first page of search results! I did take a minute to look at this other webpage. It is both fun and insightful to read when contemplating this issue: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NeverSayDie  But I wasn't able to find a list of rules for Y and Y7 programming.

I've never watched Regular Show, but that is a different kind of cartoon.  Anything like South Park, Family Guy, Simpsons is not sugar coated for children and is therefore outside the realm of this discussion. But y'all did bring up programs like Dragonball Z and Naruto. While still edited for a young demographic, these have a higher rating than TV Y. Western animation of a similar nature exists in the Clone Wars, Superman, Batman, and Justice League Unlimited series. They openly talk about death and dying. I sometimes wonder if parental reaction to Darkseid's graphic execution of Dan Turpin is what relegated the Superman series to cable. I didn't believe it at first myself. Even though this cartoon could be  intense at times, I thought Darkseid teleported Dan to make Superman think he killed him. Instead, Dan was dead...and he stayed dead.

[Shanks 10,816]

 

Even though this cartoon could be  intense at times, I thought Darkseid teleported Dan to make Superman think he killed him. Instead, Dan was dead...and he stayed dead.

That was one my favorite depictions of death in a cartoon, it was sad as death often is but it was also inspirational and moving. If it wasn't for Dan Turpin's sacrifice Superman might have died instead and Superman clearly knew that during the funeral. It says a powerful message that people tend to forget that you don't need to be all powerful to make a difference.

 

http://youtu.be/v0pcChyV6o4

 

Another one that had a powerful impact on me was the episode about Arnolds parents, it didn't say one way or the other that they died but that they have been missing for years and implied that it is likely that they died. Since I was adopted at a young age I never knew my biological parents but the parents that adopted and raised me will always be my parents, including my father who passed away a year ago as of next month. Not a day goes by where I don't think for a moment about what he would want me to do with my life, I am dissapointed with the way my life turned out but am doing my best to change course and make things right to take advantage of the talents I have and the opportunities he and my mother tried to give me.

Edited February 10, 2013 by EarthbendingProdigy

[Wingnut 7,018]

I was watching the Animaniacs marathon on the Hub yesterday and it included a segment called When Rita Met Runt.  I was surprised when Rita actually says, "They're gonna gas us, you buffoon, we'll be dead!"

 

 

If you don't wanna sit through the whole thing, jump to the 3:50 mark.  This was from the mid 90s.  When exactly were words like dead, kill, and die outlawed anyway?  Watching Yu-gi-oh at times could be sheer torture because of the extreme lengths they went to just to avoid those words.  Especially the excessive Shadow Realm references.  4Kids' job would've been so much easier if they were able to say dead once in awhile.  I think villains threatened to "destroy" Yugi about 500 times!

 

Oh, and a classic line from the Yu-gi-oh movie went something like, "It's no longer time to duel, it's now time to die!"  People who were so used to 4Kids butchering the TV anime dub were pretty pleased by that! 

[Loriem 639]

Older cartoons weren't actually afraid to use the words "Kill, dead, die, death, because it was common knowledge childrens understanding of death is a lot less emotional as usually they have not experienced a close death at that age. I miss the days when cartoons were fun...

 

That sort of thing I why I like Gravity Falls, it sort of reverts back to those days.

 

But back on topic, if MLP were to take, uh, Fluttershy, and have her die. And then they took it like a real life death, funeral, sadness, grief, anger, developement... Imagine how many kids would be crying? And how many "soccer moms" would be up in arms (Baseball bats) at Hasbro for letting their children be exposed to the real world.

 

I for one would appreciate a sort of touch on what death is in MLP, such as a near death experience  or a one shot character dying and showing what that sort of thing is like. Perhaps having Twilight and her friends having to cheer up a family who lost a relative. 

 

Sadly, that wouldn't happen.

I find it interesting that all of the deaths you described were meant to be significant deaths. Parents passing away, family, friends, etc. I think one of the reasons children's cartoons have to skirt the subject of death is because the situation is usually very serious or dramatic.

 

The only modern example I can think of a where children's cartoon candidly and openly shows death and violence is Regular Show. People get blown up, sliced in half, shot with actual guns that don't look or act like laser guns. This is significant-- can you remember a modern cartoon with real, working guns that shot bullets? If you can, you probably didn't see the bullets hit living people. Regular show is on early enough in the evening where kids over 10 are probably watching it. The deaths and injuries experienced by the characters aren't meant to be tragic or upsetting, though, so maybe that's why Regular Show can get away with so much. 

Oh yes, forgot about that.

 

Although, remember Muscle Dad's death? That was actually one of my favorite episodes. and this all together is a reason I love Regular show too.

[Buttonmash1973 1,026]

Friendship is Magic is more about being hurt inside than outside.

 

In shows like Looney Tunes and Tom and Jerry animals are beaten half dead.

[Shanks 10,816]

But back on topic, if MLP were to take, uh, Fluttershy, and have her die. And then they took it like a real life death, funeral, sadness, grief, anger, developement... Imagine how many kids would be crying? And how many "soccer moms" would be up in arms (Baseball bats) at Hasbro for letting their children be exposed to the real world.

Sadly yes, it is fairly obvious that Applejacks parents are dead and I would really love to see an episode that explored that but because of the likely over reaction of parents it is probably not going to happen. And a main character especially one of the mane 6 is even less likely to occur. Alot of these parents mean well but are not doing their children any favors by shielding them from this death as uncomfortable of a subject as it is part of life and tragedies can sometimes happen even to young children.

[Barbossa 47]

Sadly yes, it is fairly obvious that Applejacks parents are dead and I would really love to see an episode that explored that but because of the likely over reaction of parents it is probably not going to happen. And a main character especially one of the mane 6 is even less likely to occur. Alot of these parents mean well but are not doing their children any favors by shielding them from this death as uncomfortable of a subject as it is part of life and tragedies can sometimes happen even to young children.

 

 

I completely agree with you.

It's really pretty sad that it also causes us (as well as the children) to miss out on what could easily be brilliant character developement, and what could be a great example of the seriousness of death, and how to deal with the consequences (which is something kids particularly should know about.)

[FoxyCryptid 4,330]

Sadly yes, it is fairly obvious that Applejacks parents are dead and I would really love to see an episode that explored that but because of the likely over reaction of parents it is probably not going to happen. And a main character especially one of the mane 6 is even less likely to occur. Alot of these parents mean well but are not doing their children any favors by shielding them from this death as uncomfortable of a subject as it is part of life and tragedies can sometimes happen even to young children.

I think one of the staff confirmed that they're dead and the two shooting stars in Apple Family Reunion when Applejack says that EVERYPONY made it were meant to be them. 

[Shanks 10,816]

I think one of the staff confirmed that they're dead and the two shooting stars in Apple Family Reunion when Applejack says that EVERYPONY made it were meant to be them. 

Yes they did confirm that, that much is true but it is of course not the same as having an actual episode dealing with that. This is just as defining to Applejacks character as Twilight's apprenticeship to Celestia is to her character it forced Applejack to grow up far more quickly than she would have otherwise and explains why she dosen't fly off the handle or get into trouble as much as the other mane 6. When I see Applebloom in particular I see what Applejack would have been like had her parents never died. I suppose there is at least fanfics I have had a fanfic idea about this for a good while but I don't know when I am going to get to actually writing it.

[hawkflame 3,311]

When you brought this subject up, I instantly thought of Robotech, particularly the Macross saga.

 

This series gets a lot of grief from anime fans in the way that it was basically three unrelated series cobbled together, and all of the major changes as a result. But one thing that gets lost often is that the changes were made to create a continuous story arc for the series, and they were *not* for violent or adult content. The impact of war on people's lives is not lost in the translation, and major character deaths are still kept in. Roy Fokker succumbs to his wounds in his girlfriends' apartment in this version just like in the original, there's little editing of battle footage, and his death lingers over the entire series- it's something that definitely haunts the main character, Rick Hunter. When a piloted Veritech fighter explodes, the pilot's presumed to be dead. There's no mention of "they parachuted out just in time" or whatever line of dialog they added into these shows to cover their asses. And perhaps most shockingly of all, they preserved the episode where it was revealed that mankind was mostly wiped out and Earth is now a nuclear wasteland.

 

And consider that this show was on at the same time as the bloodless violence of Voltron and GI Joe.

 

I think that discussion of death and violence in a kids' show can be entirely appropriate provided that it's handled in a delicate enough way, and depending on the nature of the show. You don't want to *depress* the kids, but maybe sending the idea that violence and war is bad and has consequences maybe isn't the worst thing.

[Twinhead B 482]

Well, I figure I'll toss my two bits into this discussion. Just know that I'm mere theorizing and speculating, and I don't have any experience working the in the cartooning industry.

 

Generally, death in cartoons is only allowable if it meets three unspoken requirements:

 

1.) If it is done in a way that is without gore/blood and is not disturbing to the viewer.

 

2.) If it is the only way to convey the ideas or thematic elements that the writers are trying to accomplish.

 

3.) If it is possible to retcon or ignore in future episodes/stories.

 

The first "requirement" is simply because of stricter censorship rules in America. Gore or Blood is considered "traumatizing" to children in America, so deaths due to bodily injury are often edited or complete removed in America releases of some cartoons (mainly animes). Dragonball Z (and the recently editted version of it; Dragonball Z Kai) have many instances of censorship due to scenes being deemed "too gory" for children (Notably Frieza and King Cold's deaths in Kai). Many instances were characters are said to be "killed" or "murdered" are often changed to being "defeated" in Shonen Dubs as well.

 

The second "requirement" is mainly due to storytelling standards. Death for the sake of death is cliche and cheesy, no matter the medium of storytelling. Thus, it's often used as a last resort to add/relieve tension in a story, and as we've learned from Dragonball Z; one memorable death is much better than many unnecessary deaths for story tension. Often times, killing a character is less impactful than bringing them to a near-death state, as (in the case of the good guys) they do not learn/change from the experience, or (in the case of the bad guys) cannot be brought back for a rematch/chance at redemption.

 

Finally, the third "requirement" is mainly for marketing/longevity purposes. If you can add a way to bring back dead characters into you story (and make it believable), it's very easy to explore new ideas within the story, as you can always fall back on your story element (IE: the Dragonballs, Edo Tensei, The Lazarus Pits) to bring back characters who may have been killed off for whatever reason (story progression, waning popularity, fun). Writers often try to steer clear of using these elements too often, as it will inevitably reduce the impact of death in a story (much like how Goku ALWAYS managed to be resurrected after a fight in DBZ).

 

Again, I'm no writer, but those are what I imagine are the requirements for portraying death.

 

How does it pertain to MLP? Well, I think if the writers could fit it into the educational aspects of the show (IE: an episode about dealing with the loss of a loved one), it could very easily be a story that can be heartfelt and genuine. But, it'd be very difficult to pull off, and it would require losing a character the fanbase (bronies and children alike) are already invested in. So, I'm doubtful such a theme would ever be explored (if you thought Alicorn Twilight was risky, ho boy!) as Hasbro is most likely going to be playing it relatively safe with the series so they can ride it out for as long as possible.

Edited February 20, 2013 by Twinhead B

[Shanks 10,816]

How does it pertain to MLP? Well, I think if the writers could fit it into the educational aspects of the show (IE: an episode about dealing with the loss of a loved one), it could very easily be a story that can be heartfelt and genuine. But, it'd be very difficult to pull off, and it would require losing a character the fanbase (bronies and children alike) are already invested in.

Not necessarily, there is Applejacks parents which are the big elephant in the room and we are yet to see anything about them or their background so people can't really be all that invested in them. And there is also Granny Smith who is a secondary character whose death would be very much believable due to her advanced age and would have a profound affect on Applejack of course but even more so Applebloom as I get the feeling that Applebloom was a tad too young to actually remember her parents.

[Wingnut 7,018]

I do wish they were a little more open about the death of Applejack's parents. The shooting stars and AJ's anguished facial expression would be easy to overlook by anybody unaware of their true meaning. Most of us knew to look for it because we were given a heads up on Apple Family Reunion here. Still, they don't want to lose their TV Y rating so they're going to err on the side of caution.

 

But I am very annoyed with 4Kids' handling of Yu-gi-oh. The removal and concealment of almost all fatalities, guns, and fist fights was a true disservice to the fans of the show. It's almost like they were going for a Y rating. Yeah right! While the original anime is too violent for a children's audience here, they could've done much better. Lots of other Y7 cartoons have guns, fighting, and occasional death talk. Teen Titans could be dark at times, especially with the grudge between Robin and Slade.  I generally liked Saban's dub of Digimon much better than 4Kids' crap. Again, while gratuitous violence, fatalities, and some objectionable material were take out, they were much truer to the original. Many Japanese names and cultural items survived the translation. Fights between the kids were shown, although particularly brutal shots were cut. When Ken wished the older brother he envied so much would “just go away”, he was fatally struck by a car. I don't think they explicitly said the brother died, but no dialogue or editing was done to conceal his death either. 4Kids would not have gone for this.
 

Edited February 20, 2013 by Wingnut

[Twinhead B 482]

Not necessarily, there is Applejacks parents which are the big elephant in the room and we are yet to see anything about them or their background so people can't really be all that invested in them. And there is also Granny Smith who is a secondary character whose death would be very much believable due to her advanced age and would have a profound affect on Applejack of course but even more so Applebloom as I get the feeling that Applebloom was a tad too young to actually remember her parents.

 

AJ's parents are almost certainly never going to be mentioned in the show. They were never mentioned or even alluded to up until Apple Family Reunion (and even then the reference was so subtle, only the most clever kids would've even picked up on it).

 

While I agree that Granny Smith passing away would have an affect on Applejack, Applebloom, and Bic Macintosh's character, I can't help but feel an episode relating to death (and dealing with it) would kill of a character that fans are more attached too (at least, if they wanted it to have any impact). I'm sure we all love Granny Smith, but not nearly as much as one of the Mane 6 or CMC.

 

Come to think of it, there really aren't any characters in the show that would have that kind of impact without leaving a big hole in the show..

[Flying Space Badger 84]

One recent show that seems to handle death and the feelings surrounding it in a mature fashion is Transformers Prime. Granted they can get away with more because Giant Robots. Though I feel like even so, I personaly would have flipped out upon seeing some to the more violent deaths as a young child. It's rated Y7, for the recored.

[Wingnut 7,018]

One recent show that seems to handle death and the feelings surrounding it in a mature fashion is Transformers Prime. Granted they can get away with more because Giant Robots. Though I feel like even so, I personally would have flipped out upon seeing some to the more violent deaths as a young child. It's rated Y7, for the record.

I would concur with that.  One of the big differences between Transformers Prime and earlier generations is that Autobots and Decepticons have a higher mortality rate.  And once they are dead, they stay dead.  But the deaths of Transformers still seems more palatable because they are exotic lifeforms.  And they're also easier to resurrect than humans if the plot calls for it. 

[duidamasterXD 9,627]

I was just revisiting one of my favorite shows from when I was younger, and it actually had loads of death. Weird thing is, it was on PBS. Not the place I would expect that. it wasn't ever bloody or anything, but there was pretty obvious what was happening. Look at this video, about 2:25 or so.

 

 

I can't believe they got away with that on PBS. The guy got freaking impaled. Also if you keep watching after that you get to see Laterose die, in one of the greatest cartoon death scenes that I know of. When I was little, we didn't have many channels and I think one of the reasons that I liked Redwall so much was that it had a bit more respect for its audience than most other shows I could watch. There was a well-woven and intricate story, complex and flawed characters, and it didn't shirk away from killing characters and using their deaths to create intensely powerful scenes. This show needs more recognition dang it.

 

(on a humorous forum related note, my favorite character was a squirrel named Felldoh. I actually thought our fearless leader named himself after this show once He died too )

Edited February 28, 2013 by DashForever

[PlunderSteed 1,252]

Studio Ghibli's "The Secret World of Arrietty" provides a bittersweet look into a couple of kids' struggle for survival.  Arrietty's struggle is the classic fantasy aspect of little people living among us, but Sho's struggle is a starkly realistic terminal heart condition.  Their courage is inspiring, and the film does a good job of not sugar-coating the boy's grim situation.

 

Rotten Tomatoes Review

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vp2nb9Vq0yY

[Wingnut 7,018]

I can't believe they got away with that on PBS. The guy got freaking impaled.

 

Heh, it was cleverly concealed through heavy clothing, but it was still bone-chillingly obvious.  I take it this doesn't air immediately before or after Sesame Street. 

 

If you've ever watched Voltron or the original anime, GoLion, the fatal blow to Sven isn't shown on screen.  You simply see this monster striking downward (Sven is just under the camera view).  When Megatron kills Ironhide in the 1986 Transformers movie, that is semi-censored in a similar way. 

Edited March 1, 2013 by Wingnut