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I think some sort of middle ground could work just as well. So let's say a preview cannot be listed in the global index, ( Why should it? It's not a song, it's a preview. ) it shouldn't show up on the random tracks page either etc... 

Like this, authors can still link to it, users still get notifications ( once that is implemented ) and they don't clutter the index!

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or set it ridiculously low. like 10 seconds.


Hmmm....

How about setting all under 30 seconds songs marked with a "report for not music" or a "flag" (could be something else) button. 
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Hmmm....

 

How about setting all under 30 seconds songs marked with a "report for not music" or a "flag" (could be something else) button. 

img-1272012-1-mlfw2154-9Vhua.gif

It's music whether it's under 30 seconds or not...

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How would a 30 second snippet really appeal to a listener though? Is pony.fm going to actively try appeal to people who want help with WIP tracks or is intended for finished tracks only. That's a big determiner.

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How would a 30 second snippet really appeal to a listener though? Is pony.fm going to actively try appeal to people who want help with WIP tracks or is intended for finished tracks only. That's a big determiner.

I for example am going to upload my game soundtracks to pony.fm once they're finished, and stuff like menu and cutscene themes might be under 30 seconds, even if looped twice.

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How would a 30 second snippet really appeal to a listener though? Is pony.fm going to actively try appeal to people who want help with WIP tracks or is intended for finished tracks only. That's a big determiner.

 

I agree, especially if Pony.fm is going to be like a (hopefully Pandora-like) radio-station.  (Something I can leave on in the background and work to awesome pony-themed tunes all day! :D  <3 <3 <3 )

 

Maybe... if it is also going to serve the purpose of being a music-demo place and include unfinished tracks or snippets, that those simply not be served-up on the "radio" or in the Pandora-like playlists...?

 

(Or maybe having in the music search function a check-box for unfinished works-in-progress, and one for snippets too?)

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How would a 30 second snippet really appeal to a listener though? Is pony.fm going to actively try appeal to people who want help with WIP tracks or is intended for finished tracks only. That's a big determiner.

It could also appeal for both ?

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Well if people can tag WIP's and promo's so that they would be shown as such and not played in any "radio" station that may emerge then i have less concerns with it. Some people do like to show off tracks in progress but that are not completed or published to others for feedback (very common). I have no idea if work-in-progress tracks can be hosted or privately linked but they can on soundcloud and can't on eqbeats (i think).

Edited by Freewave
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I for example am going to upload my game soundtracks to pony.fm once they're finished, and stuff like menu and cutscene themes might be under 30 seconds, even if looped twice.

 

Thanks for pointing this out, Zacharias. I put the limitation in place with the idea of discouraging WIP's, but I certainly don't want to exclude finished songs that are legitimately shorter than that. 30 seconds is considered the industry standard length for a "preview" of a song, so I thought it would be a good place to set a cutoff, but this topic shows that a cutoff like that isn't necessarily that great an idea.

 

 

How would a 30 second snippet really appeal to a listener though? Is pony.fm going to actively try appeal to people who want help with WIP tracks or is intended for finished tracks only. That's a big determiner.

Well if people can tag WIP's and promo's so that they would be shown as such and not played in any "radio" station that may emerge then i have less concerns with it. Some people do like to show off tracks in progress but that are not completed or published to others for feedback (very common). I have no idea if work-in-progress tracks can be hosted or privately linked but they can on soundcloud and can't on eqbeats (i think).

I agree, especially if Pony.fm is going to be like a (hopefully Pandora-like) radio-station.  (Something I can leave on in the background and work to awesome pony-themed tunes all day! biggrin.png  <3 <3 <3 )

 

Maybe... if it is also going to serve the purpose of being a music-demo place and include unfinished tracks or snippets, that those simply not be served-up on the "radio" or in the Pandora-like playlists...?

 

(Or maybe having in the music search function a check-box for unfinished works-in-progress, and one for snippets too?)

 

To be honest, I intended Pony.fm to be a place for completed, published works, and I'm not terribly interested in footing the bills to host private tracks. Perhaps it could happen as a premium feature someday, but don't count on it.

 

WIP's that the artist wishes to openly publish I'm ambivalent toward, on the other hand. There's certainly nothing inherently wrong with an artist publishing a pre-release teaser for promotional purposes of an upcoming track or album; however, these teasers become largely useless once the real thing is released, and as you both pointed out, most listeners won't have any interest in unfinished music coming up in their day-to-day use of the site.

 

If "promotional" WIP's are allowed, I could certainly add another option to the track editor to mark music as such, and users could then make their own choice whether to see these tracks or not (like I already do for explicit/NSFW music). With the upcoming "update track" feature, it would be possible for an artist to replace a promo WIP with the real thing in the future. The original WIP could be preserved for archival purposes in case anyone particularly curious wishes to hear it.

 

As a whole, however, I see WIP's as being of interest more to artists than listeners. What do you think?

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(Big mass of text.)

 

I'm in agreement with you Feld0 - thirty seconds is probably a good cutoff point. If people need to make a WIP longer, they can simply add some silence to the end of the track. It's not that hard to do, but I suppose I could see lessening it to twenty seconds or something like that.

 

And yes, as a musician, I'd love to be able to post WIP's, but at the same time, I wouldn't want them intermixed with the "radio" songs that I would listen to on a regular basis. I'd rather have them marked in the metadata, like the explicit content, so that it can be filtered out. (In fact, it may be best not to even include the option for WIP's to land on the radio. That seems akin to having advertisements on the radio.)

Edited by CloudFyre
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As a whole, however, I see WIP's as being of interest more to artists than listeners. What do you think?

 

I have to disagree here, WIP showcases are by definition for the listeners and not the artists. After all, the artist knows his work.

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I have to disagree here, WIP showcases are by definition for the listeners and not the artists. After all, the artist knows his work.

 

Sorry i disagree with that completely. The artist wouldn't put out a WIP up unless they wanted feedback on what they should improve BEFORE they published a finished track. That's why people are constantly showing off WIP's (generally private ones) to other musicians, for feedback and improvements. Otherwise if they know their work they should just publish a finished track!

 

If Feld doesn't want WIP's and only finished tracks, that's understandable.There has to be standards.

Edited by Freewave
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Sorry i disagree with that completely. The artist wouldn't put out a WIP up unless they wanted feedback on what they should improve BEFORE they published a finished track. That's why people are constantly showing off WIP's (generally private ones) to other musicians, for feedback and improvements. Otherwise if they know their work they should just publish a finished track!

 

If Feld doesn't want WIP's and only finished tracks, that's understandable.There has to be standards.

 

That's still for the listeners isn't it? If he wants to share it with artists he can contact them and not publicly post it.

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I have to disagree here, WIP showcases are by definition for the listeners and not the artists. After all, the artist knows his work.

 

 

Sorry i disagree with that completely. The artist wouldn't put out a WIP up unless they wanted feedback on what they should improve BEFORE they published a finished track. That's why people are constantly showing off WIP's (generally private ones) to other musicians, for feedback and improvements. Otherwise if they know their work they should just publish a finished track!

 

If Feld doesn't want WIP's and only finished tracks, that's understandable.There has to be standards.

 

Let's settle this now: you're both wrong! tongue.png  Okay, now that we have that all straightened out...

*Edit: I suppose neither of you are really "wrong"...that was a poor choice of words on my part.

 

All bad jokes aside, I think it's safe to say that this really isn't a debate worth exerting a ton of energy on. (Allow me to elaborate.)

 

WIP's by definitions are meant for someone other than the original artist to hear. Whether it's for 1) reviews/feedback to make it better, or 2) to showcase a piece of an already finished track that's coming out in the near future, it won't be the full song. 

 

The question becomes this: do we let them onto the site? Or do we exclude them? I think I have a reasonable answer. (Please feel free to share your thoughts on this.)

 

 

In our concepts for the website, we have a "featured artists" or "featured tracks" section. (Check it out here: http://mlpforums.com/topic/43802-featured-artists/) Obviously not every song can be "featured", but we've discussed an option to allow artists to resubmit songs once they've refined it more - making the failed songs a "work in progress" by default. We even have a feature to request critiques, and that in and of itself is aimed at artists trying to make their music better.

 

We have so many tools and features already laid out to help artists get better at what they're doing, I can't understand why we wouldn't let artists upload songs that they're having problems with, or why we wouldn't let people upload tracks which they want some input on before they make their final tweaks.

 

I say we let people upload them, but mark them in the metadata so that they don't appear on random playlists (or whatever form of "radio" we set up later).

 

Is that a fair assessment?

Edited by CloudFyre
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I think some sort of middle ground could work just as well. So let's say a preview cannot be listed in the global index, ( Why should it? It's not a song, it's a preview. ) it shouldn't show up on the random tracks page either etc... 

 

Like this, authors can still link to it, users still get notifications ( once that is implemented ) and they don't clutter the index!

 

I support this idea. I think it would be a way to make those on both sides of the argument happy. 

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I support this idea. I think it would be a way to make those on both sides of the argument happy. 

 

My thoughts exactly. It looks like it's the best of both worlds.

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