Deep Thoughts Discussion

[Guest]

I was inspired by this thread to start a deep thoughts discussion. This discussion is all just for fun and enjoyment, so please don't get too worked up over anything. (I trust the members of this forum though, so the warning is probably unneccesary) I mainly just want to see what other opinions are out there and enjoy some stimulating conversation.

 

The following is just some of my views, tell me what you think, what your opinions are, bring up your own points, etc.

 

I have learned to look at the world as an absurd and horribly silly place where "truth" in philosophical terms means nothing and you have to just live how you want to. If people want to attack you because you have an opinion (which is neither right nor wrong) then let them, because they are just as correct/incorrect as you are. (This doesn't mean you can't argue for your opinion, freeom lets us do that as much as we please. It can be quite fun and stimulating if done in a kind and positive environment.) An opinion is little more than you voicing how you feel or think, and if someone expects another person to agree with exactly how they feel then they are as absurd as I believe them to be! (Note: Now living how you want to and not placing absolute belief in ideas does not mean being unkind towards everyone and not caring, absurdity does not equal nihilism. I still hold opinions and work to make the world a better place, I just acknowledge that deep down I will never truly be right nor wrong).

 

Even facts are not 100% provable/unprovable. Can gravity be 100% irrevocably proven, nope, can it be 100% irrevocably disproven, nope. All facts are truly just opinions that a large group of people choose to accept. At one point a large portion of the world's population believed the sun revolved around the Earth, and they greatly ostracized anyone who disagreed (Galileo). Then one day someone decided "Oh wait, maybe he was right." and another joined in saying "I think your right, he was right!" and it just kept going until it was accepted.

 

If you really want to go deep into the "is anything true discussion" start asking is any of this really real. Can you prove you aren't dreaming right now? Can you prove you are actually "seeing" right now, and not something else (Plato's Allegory of the Cave). There is always a 0.00000000000...etc. % chance something is possible. (Why I love philosophy so much! )

 

And yes, the above is an opinion so it is very much flawed but for now it is the best I have!

 

In case it matters in discussion to anypony I am an absurdist/existentialist agnostic.

[Finesthour 7,284]

The world is absolutely terrible to good people.

 

So many have attempted to do good for the Earth, and get punished in the end.

[Discordian 6,013]

The more nonsensical a concept, the more fun it is to consider the implications of it compared with established concepts and facts.

[SrFrog 926]

I've always viewed the world as Black and White place where you paint the world around you with your own beliefs, and that peace cannot exist without chaos. The more I think of it, I have come to reallize that there is no absolute truth in the universe at least in my perpective of life.

[Discordian 6,013]

Even the most profound and well-accepted "truths" can be viewed as wrong. Good vs Evil is something we view as a way to separate those we agree with and those we don't but in the end, even the most heinous of crimes is not truly wrong but merely something that happened. Humans color it how they want.

[SrFrog 926]

I hadn't quite considered that good and evil was a human concept.

[Discordian 6,013]

I've considered it for many years now. If a planet is destroyed people will view it as a bad thing but in the end if there was no true sentience where would the view "bad" even come from? It just sorta...happened. Imagine the universe without sentience, without thoughts or opinions; that is how the universe truly is. Stuff just happens, it's we humans who color it as something good, bad, beneficial, evil, detrimental or what-have-you.

[Guest]

I've considered it for many years now. If a planet is destroyed people will view it as a bad thing but in the end if there was no true sentience where would the view "bad" even come from? It just sorta...happened. Imagine the universe without sentience, without thoughts or opinions; that is how the universe truly is. Stuff just happens, it's we humans who color it as something good, bad, beneficial, evil, detrimental or what-have-you.

 

I agree, our entire existance is based on how we perceive it. This is essentially the base lesson of the allegory of the cave, the people in the cave believe all of existance is one way simply because that is the only way they are capable of viewing it. On the flip side though I don't feel there is any underlying design either (or at least none that we could understand with our limited perception of the space-time continum).

[Discordian 6,013]

Of course, because humans do perceive what is good and what is bad/evil we are given laws. It's better to follow the majority when it comes to lawfulness even if you don't think killing someone is evil because you will get in trouble.

 

No matter your beliefs, law is upheld by the many so you have to make a small sacrifice for your beliefs and views whether you agree or not.

 

Also, I realize I can alienate a lot of people by saying such things. It's happened before.

 

People tend to stop listening to me when they realize that things I say tend to be so off-the-wall you could almost considering it pure madness rather than just a theory.

[Guest]

Of course, because humans do perceive what is good and what is bad/evil we are given laws. It's better to follow the majority when it comes to lawfulness even if you don't think killing someone is evil because you will get in trouble.

 

No matter your beliefs, law is upheld by the many so you have to make a small sacrifice for your beliefs and views whether you agree or not.

 

Also, I realize I can alienate a lot of people by saying such things. It's happened before.

 

People tend to stop listening to me when they realize that things I say tend to be so off-the-wall you could almost considering it pure madness rather than just a theory.

 

Laws are useful, even if they aren't backed by anything more than the majority's will. They keep people generally safe, and in my opinion a few small sacrifices are worth it (although standing up agaisnst laws is important as well).

 

I'm here to listen to everypony's opinion, so please don't worry about alienating me. I just like listening to ideas and then modifying my own through what I learn.

 

My theories don't really follow a straight line either, I just use the term organized chaos.

[NeverNeverland 1,940]

I feel as if I'm the most boring person on the earth.

 

I think I can attribute this to past experiences, but something that makes me realize this is what things that interest me. As a metal head that likes to watch MLP I'm pretty sure that I'm somewhat interesting, but not interesting enough to compare myself to the rest of general society. Even among my friends I feel as if they seem to have more over me, for instance me and my friends are active Yu-Gi-Oh players, but while I'm managing to run only one deck, the others are at least working using three decks and STILL beating me with said decks.

 

Along with that, as a metal head I feel as if that I have something interesting to talk about, but to people that aren't interested in the music I enjoy (which is 1: A lot of people, 2: a big hinderance of talking to those who hate what I appreciate) it's complete noise which makes me feel isolated. Along with that, I'm on another forum specifically for metal. I can get some interesting trivia, but in terms of discovering multitudes of new and old bands to listen to, I've barely managed to scratch the surface. What I feel I've accomplished in discovering bands, is nothing compared to others.

 

EVEN IN MLP I still come off as a boring person. I notice this because a lot of the MLP: FIM fanbase is a very heavy creative group where a lot of artists/musicians/authors can easily come up with things and display it to others, good or bad, and still be recognized by others. When someone creates something in this community, they can get some good recognition from many others. If I create something, I can't even show it because after reviewing it over and over and over and over (you get the idea), it turns out generic and uninteresting and I FRICKIN HATE IT!

 

I'm gonna go throw something now. Excuse me.

[DoNotStruggle 13]

Life is pointless and an utter waste of valuable time.

 

Relative terms such as "good" and "bad" ultimately have no meaning.

 

There is no true ego, only a section of matter experincing itself subjectively as part of one object.

 

Deal with it!

[NeverNeverland 1,940]

Relative terms such as "good" and "bad" ultimately have no meaning.

 

There is no true ego, only a section of matter experincing itself subjectively as part of one object.

 

Deal with it!

 

You're most probably right and I apologize for venting like that.

[Arylett Charnoa 4,919]

I feel as if I'm the most boring person on the earth.

 

I think I can attribute this to past experiences, but something that makes me realize this is what things that interest me. As a metal head that likes to watch MLP I'm pretty sure that I'm somewhat interesting, but not interesting enough to compare myself to the rest of general society. Even among my friends I feel as if they seem to have more over me, for instance me and my friends are active Yu-Gi-Oh players, but while I'm managing to run only one deck, the others are at least working using three decks and STILL beating me with said decks.

 

Along with that, as a metal head I feel as if that I have something interesting to talk about, but to people that aren't interested in the music I enjoy (which is 1: A lot of people, 2: a big hinderance of talking to those who hate what I appreciate) it's complete noise which makes me feel isolated. Along with that, I'm on another forum specifically for metal. I can get some interesting trivia, but in terms of discovering multitudes of new and old bands to listen to, I've barely managed to scratch the surface. What I feel I've accomplished in discovering bands, is nothing compared to others.

 

EVEN IN MLP I still come off as a boring person. I notice this because a lot of the MLP: FIM fanbase is a very heavy creative group where a lot of artists/musicians/authors can easily come up with things and display it to others, good or bad, and still be recognized by others. When someone creates something in this community, they can get some good recognition from many others. If I create something, I can't even show it because after reviewing it over and over and over and over (you get the idea), it turns out generic and uninteresting and I FRICKIN HATE IT!

 

I'm gonna go throw something now. Excuse me.

 

It's okay to feel like that... I often feel incompetent in comparison to others. I was just having a moment similar to this today, actually.

 

But nah, you're not the most boring person in the world. Even if I don't know you that well, if at least some people are interested in you enough to be your friend, then you're definitely not boring! Boring people are people who just sit around alone all day, without internet or real life friends. They have nothing in common with anybody and just spend all of their time doing nothing. You share some interests with people, even if many don't share your primary interest in metal. That doesn't mean you're boring though. It just means you can't seem to find a lot of people with your interest. You just gotta look in the right places to find people with more in common with ya. The internet's a huge place, you'll find someone who loves what you love. And a lot of 'em.

 

And not everyone who likes MLP is creative! You certainly don't have to be. And even if it seems generic and uninteresting to you, it doesn't mean it isn't worth showing. The things you create, I mean. Somebody might well take interest in it. You don't know until you try.

 

It's all about how you think about things. It's just your perception about yourself. It's not really... you know, that good. And it's easy to get that way. I get that way all the time, comparing myself with other people... feeling like an idiot in comparison. Just forget them, and do your own thing. If anything, you're probably more interesting because you have a special interest that not a lot of people have. You are a distinguishable person from the rest of the crowd, and in my opinion, that definitely makes you more interesting than most.

[StarGazer 129]

I seriously think that the world is a beautiful place that we should treasure since it won't be around forever. But I think that it's hard for people to see it's beauty because we are so caught up in civilization that we have forgotten the animal part of us that just likes to live. And I think that the start of agricultural societies was the beginning of the bad times for the environment since that was when we started to control nature. I don't think that it was bad for us per se, but there were some downsides.

I think that we should appreciate the trees, stars and each other more and try to care for one another even though it isn't always practical, easy, or fun.

[Guest]

You're most probably right and I apologize for venting like that.

 

Venting is just something we all have to do once and a while, so no worries.

 

Your third paragraph in the vent post actually hit a chord for me, I like to think of myself as an artist but I feel I have too much "idea" and not enough quality "product." Overall I feel like I am always a step behind, or I can't compete with what is out there. My poems are about the only thing I can feel good about after reviewing them, but I still don't give up. You just have to keep going even when it feels like you aren't going to come out ahead, because in the end I think everyone feels similar emotions. The grass is always greener as the proverb goes.

 

Also I would not call you boring, I wouldn't call anyone on this entire forum boring. You are all such amazing and interesting people, I feel like I know you all more than I do some of my offline friends.

[DashingRainbow36 263]

Here is the way I see it.

 

So you have the big bang (I'll get on what may have started that), which is still happening to this day and speeding up. So our first ancestors (the first sub atomic particles, atoms, matter, then to stars, and galaxies) have been, and still are in a constant movement. This I think we can relate to. We, as the somewhat intelligent primates we are, are constantly learning, talking, sexing (hehe), eating, breathing, and to sum it up, living. We are constantly moving forward, gathering, and making acquaintances, lovers and friends, to what purpose pleases us. The universe did this as well. It evolved, and is still evolving for the sole purpose of doing so. In this, we can see that our own evolution, from the tiny amino acids, to the fish, to mammals, and then to us, is in a constant state of moving forward, just for the purpose of doing so.

 

So, why?

 

Why is it just doing this?

 

Some will say that god did it. Some even speculate we are living in a computer program. But those ideas of god, or a super computer, or aliens was only contrived from US. We as humans are capable of making up stories to suite our needs, because we have a HUGE imagination, language and syntax, better communication and so forth. Which is why I never take the notion of god seriously. There is no science in that.

 

But what we do find science in, is understanding. We understand how our universe came to be. We understand how we evolved. We understand how planets and stars came about. But for the longest time, science has had no reason as to why. We left the reason as to why, up to poets and priests. But that time, I think is over.

 

So why live? Why have life?

 

So we can UNDERSTAND each other.

 

We are all made of the same shit. The chair you are sitting on, the book on your nightstand, and the dog shit you stepped in today, are all made of the same stuff. Sub atomic particles and atoms. We have all the same genetics (99 percent of it, putting the notion of race into the ash can). We need this sort of philosophy from science, to help us live together and.well...love and tolerate.

 

Why would we want to do that?

 

Well what do we like? Love, friendship, experience, altered states of consciousness, sex, food, entertainment. We like the things that make us happy (on the ground that what makes you happy doesn’t harm other people). So, we should live for these things, and if not for us, so our future generations can have these things. So we can keep our "big bang" going. And so we can understand the things and mysteries around us.

 

Religion, politics, state lines, boarders, racism, homophobia, hate, greed, and all other horrible things (yes I know religion can be beautiful, I’ve known many people who are beautiful because of it) are things we contrived only out of our lack of UNDERSTANDING. We all have the ability to love and tolerate, but because of the things listed above, we separated ourselves. Did the universe do that? In some ways yes (look up at the night sky and look at the Andromeda galaxy coming toward us. Some intelligent design huh?), the universe has let’s say "contradicted" it’s self, but it didn’t have the emotion, and greed of men to poison it.

 

So, we need science. Our politicians need to take that notion seriously or we are in grave danger. As individuals we should take this seriously, so we can assert ourselves when we are sad, lonely, angry, or indifferent. We need this gem, this “savior”, this way of understanding so we can help ourselves, and the future generations ahead of us.

 

So when I’m down, and in the dumps, this is what I think. I have been around as matter for billions of years, from the big bang, to the sun that created me. I am made of the earth that is home, and I have a mind that is capable of vast wonders and delight. Why end it? Why end my only chance at a life I can make my own. NO. I won’t give in, and neither should you.

 

But that’s just my “deep thought” views for today, I have many more.

[Guest]

 

I agree with much of what you have said, atlhough for me I would change the word understanding to perception. Understanding implies that there is inherent meaning in the universe, that without perception there would still be meaning. In my opinion, it is the ability to "perceive" and interperet our surroundings that fills the world with meaning. This meaning is as real as any "inherent" meaning, and it grows from within us. This also leads to every person having a different meaning for themselves, but we can still shape and affect each others perceived existance.

 

Overall I loved the way you put your ideas into words, it was a powerful read! *adding this to my collection of thought provoking reading material*

Edited February 3, 2012 by Guest

[Yellow Diamond 7,561]

I take issue (not personally, but philosophically) with the reference to the Allegory of the Cave as a postmodern tale. Recall the whole of the allegory: there are men inside who are chained, believing the shadows cast on the walls are the whole of reality. The postmodern tale tends to stop at this point in order to illustrate our inability to assess the truth of reality objectively. But that is not where Plato stops! One of the imprisoned men is gradually led out of the cave, until he at last sees the sun and understands the wholeness of the world. Venturing back into the cave, this enlightened prisoner is killed by the others who refuse to accept a world outside of the one which that they inhabit.

 

Plato is indicating a higher understanding, a higher truth with respect to the functions of the world. And knowing Platonic philosophy and its concept of the forms, there is little reason to believe it is a deconstructionist tale about how our perception, being fallible, is ultimate untrustworthy across the board. The Allegory of the Cave is a criticism of ignorance and reactionary elements toward higher truth which, in a not so subtle foreshadowing, eventually leads to the trial and execution of Socrates for “corrupting” the youth of Athens.

 

We can argue about what enlightening truth the sun represents—the existence of God? The power of human reason? The truth of the natural world?—but it is not another false premise within the Platonic framework. A postmodernist would be inclined to reject it as foundational, for there appears no objective foundation for the centrality of this “truth.” The truth sets the fettered man free; a postmodernist, always critical of absolute constructs, would paradoxically declare himself free by denying the wholeness of truth.

[Eenohay 318]

I used to believe we all were free. That the whole universe was created by mere chance, and that we were completely free to do as we wanted, as there was no one watching over us.

 

I still believe part of that, but i've realized that none of us are free at all. We are all mortal, and as we only exist while we are alive we must do anything to remain like that, or else we cease to exist. We aren't capable of swimming in lava or jumping of buildings or not eating anything and such. We are slaves or our own bodies, we are slaves of the Earth, the only place with conditions for life, we are slaves of the whole universe wich we can't escape and on top of that, we are slaves of our society, wich obliges us to do things we might not want, and makes us life within certain parameters. We aren't free at all.

 

So all that remains for me is to accept that I'm just a slave during my short existance in this universe, and hope to make the best of it, wich is actually quite little.

[Starswirl the Trixie 974]

Is this thread trying to put all philosophical discussion in one small place, or is there some sort of theme (I doubt the latter)? Things could get a bit messy in the future; ex. two people discussing metaphysics, their posts intermingled with a group debating ethical quandaries.

 

Anyways, I'll go off of the epistemological themes of the OP and a couple other people. As shown through countless examples of methodological doubt, no knowledge can be held to certainty; the problem, therefore, is trying to find a justification for doing things that are based entirely upon assumptions. Hume tackled this issue: While many of the assumptions and beliefs of past generations will turn out to be wrong, it is still a good idea to follow them, as they are the closest one can get to truth. As a philosophy professor I once had put it: If your parents tell you that those berries are poisonous, you probably shouldn't eat them. The belief may have come from the Middle Ages, when people may have believed that the berries were poisonous due to demons residing in them, but the message is still true.

 

I extend on this: We do not know the actual layout of the universe, down to the very subatomic particle (if they even exist, that is). HOWEVER, the human mind cannot imagine it; I can try to imagine a different universe, which has the same chance of being "reality" as the universe that I perceive with my senses, but I could not understand that conjured world. To best understand things, I must rely upon the belief that what I perceive is probably true, even though I know that it very well may not be.

 

The problem emerges with critiques of logic itself; any attempt to prove that logic IS reliable follows the infamous "Cartesian Circle": 1) I use logic to show that logic is illogical 2) I use logic to prove X 3) Because of X, logic actually IS reliable. That circle is simply inescapable, because any thought on the issue must use logic (unless you are a zen master that has somehow tapped into a higher level of understanding), and because of that I try to disregard it. I find that actually proving things to be true is impossible; what I do is make conditional statements; "If X is true, then I can logically deduce Y."