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Villains Being Redeemed


Roger Boyd

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I agree completely. I'd rather have a great villain put to limited use (so their schtick doesn't get repetitive) than reform them and water them down just so their role could be expanded.

 

It's why I still have a problem with the reforming of Discord. Part of his whole appeal to me was in his role as an antagonist. Also part of why some people welcome the change is that it changes things up so that his role in the series doesn't get stale. Unless they plan on using him 2 or 3 more times, I doubt that really matters.

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They want it because the antagonists are generally more interesting than most of the protagonists.

 

However, I do agree. Both Trixie and Discord should not have been 'reformed'. I'd like them to appear again, sure, but reforming them just doesn't make sense and loses a bit of the interesting traits both of them had.

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I agree that not every villain/antagonist should be redeemed because it simply dosen't make sense to do it for certain ones. King Sombra is the most dark and evil villain introduced so far, he is almost like this shows version of Satan so him returning would be great but no to redeemed. Discord being redeemed made a bit more sense but is a tad pre mature, what made Discord evil was the fact that he wanted to spread chaos which is inherently neutral with no regard whatsoever about how it effects others. I would have liked to have seen at least one more episode with him as a villain before reforming. I don't want Blueblood redeemed because he has the potential to be a sort of anti example and in many ways was in The Best Night Ever and it will make so we won't have scenes like where he used Rarity as a pony shield which was hilarious. People hate on Blueblood because he is a selfish jerk but what they forget is that it is his role as a character to be a selfish jerk and he fills it quite nicely.

 

I wouldn't mind Lightning Dust being redeemed but I am not going to lose any sleep if she isn't, the FlimFlam brothers would be extremely bland and boring as redeemed characters because it is their greed which makes them interesting characters and their new attitude wouldn't really match their names anymore. Iron Will dosen't need nearly as much redemption as the others because although he took his assertiveness training a bit far he has also been shown to have a strong sense of honor. He said that if you are not completely satisfied that you do not have to pay and kept his word when Fluttershy said she wasn't satisfied. And I think he learned something with her direct yet polite approach and may have implemented it into his seminars.

 

One that I would like to see redeemed though is Gilda, the "lesson" in Griffon The Brush Off left a very bad taste in my mouth which made it my least favorite episode of the series until MMC reared its ugly head. Yes Gilda was wrong but I don't like the fact that she is blamed for everything when Pinkie Pie was acting like a crazy stalker, its true that Gilda could have been a bit nicer to her but how would you feel if you had a friend you hadn't seen in years and wanted some alone time with them and someone kept stalking you and wouldn't leave you alone? Gilda could have had something very personal she needed to talk to Rainbow Dash about for all we know and what is the deal with Twilight claiming Gilda is a "false friend" when she dosen't even know her? And Rainbow Dash may have had a right to be angry at her for almost killing Pinkie Pie and being mean to Fluttershy who did nothing wrong but everybody else got off and Gilda took the fall. Even if Gilda dosen't admit any wrong doing than at least have the others do so, the lesson of that episode could be to not hold onto grudges.

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It's not just bronies or this show. People generally love a well-written redemption story for a villain that they've either loved or loved to hate. This isn't an unusual or uncommon thing. Many games, TV shows, comics, and book sagas have done it with varying degrees of success. There's also the "partial redemption" which may see them change their ways a little but not their philosophy; same idea, but it sometimes leaves people wanting more even as they're happy with the progress the villain has made. I'm going through something similar in some books that I read, wondering what direction a certain main will take next.

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I don't agree with a reformed Gilda being another Rainbow Dash. In 'Griffon the Brush Off' the only part of her personality that was revealed was that she seems to be the type of person who has a very limited circle of friends and tends to have an obsessive sort of penchant towards keeping them exclusive. Looking at quotes from 'Twilight Sparkle and the Crystal Heart Spell' reinforces this as being a bad personality trait on her part:

 

 

 

"Twilight is a princess now, you guys! She's off to the Crystal Empire and doesn't need a bunch of silly Ponyville friends like you holding her back. She told me so herself. So leave her alone!"

 

Note that this isn't what would be reformed. Rather her tendency to exclude others would be something that she would be 'working on' in the course of the given episode. Redemption stories tend to be engaging because it shows how the villainous actions of the villain are a coping mechanism for something tragic that occured in their past or is a recurring issue with them currently. Even though I doubt something tragic would ever be a background reason for an MLP villain, it still has the potential to be interesting to see how the villain internalized the conflict and ended up resorting to the actions they took in the series. I don't think that Gilda would make a similar Rainbow Dash. I think that she would be someone who would be trying hard to make friends while dealing with her bad habit of keeping one friend exclusive from everyone else. That's a trait that I would never expect to see exhibited by Rainbow Dash and the only case where I saw anything relatable was in The Ticket Master which showed that such a premise could be interesting enough to be the premise for an entire episode.

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(edited)

My thought is that it all stems from the popularity villains in general.  In order to have a strong story, you need to have strong antagonists for the main characters to go up against, and FiM is lucky to have a whole roster of compelling bad guys.  After all, people love villains.  You know what to expect from our heroes in a story for the most part, but its the villain that grabs the audience's attention since we don't really know much about them at first other than they're bad news and they need to be stopped.  And the more imposing the bad guy, the more memorable the story is.  Think about it, would the first Star Wars have been as big as it is if the villain was anything other than Darth Vader?  Probably not.

 

Getting back to FiM, its antagonists are pretty impressive on its own right.  Nightmare Moon, Discord, Trixie, Chrysalis, Sombra, Gilda, Flim and Flam, Blueblood and hell even Diamond Tiara and Silver Spoon all have their fans simply because their characters left that much of an impact.  It's only natural therefore that people start playing the 'what if' game as they wonder what would it take to redeem these characters.  Because as much as we love a bad guy, we absolutely ADORE a comeback story (see any Hollywood celebrity or sports athlete who overcame ANYTHING in his/her past). 

Edited by Astrobrony
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It's not just bronies or this show. People generally love a well-written redemption story for a villain that they've either loved or loved to hate.

I love a good redemption story too, it is one the many reasons why Luna is tied with Applejack and Twilight for my favorite pony and one of the reasons why Revan is both my favorite jedi and is tied with Darth Bane for my favorite sith. But as powerful as a storytelling tool as it is if it is used too much or for character where it wouldn't make too much sense than it loses whatever power it once had. And since this shows focuses so much on slice of life episodes with morals it might inadvertantly give off the moral that everyone can be changed which is unfortunately not the case and therefore a bad moral. It is however also a bad moral to say that because one side is wrong that the other side is automatically in the right which is the problem I have with the "moral" of Griffon The Brush Off.

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I agree. I mean the only antagonist that I actually wanted to see reformed was Trixie! Because she wasn't completely evil, she was just a bit jealous, boastful and got carried away. Those are redeemable qualities.

 

Chrysalis was willing to make Shining Armor her love slave and let her changelings feed on all of the ponies! And she was a manipulative liar.

 

King Sombra enslaved a whole kingdom!

 

Gilda was a bully who refused to be reformed.

 

And Lightning Dust was a risk everypony's neck, daredevil who didn't care about the consequences.

 

And Discord, well I honestly didn't want him to be reformed. >.> I like his chaotic-ness and slightly harmful humor.

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To be honest, this whole redemption thing is, as Artemis mentioned, something that runs true within all fandoms. I've loved many different fictional universes, and all of them have fans that want to see villains redeemed or to explain their story to make them more relatable or make them seem not as bad.

 

What do I think about redemption of the characters in Friendship is Magic?

 

I personally don't mind it, but the thing I want the most is a well-written and believable reason for it. Let's take "Magic Duel" and "Keep Calm and Flutter On" as two examples. Now, some folks say Trixie was never really evil, but I do believe she was a boastful bully and that she was antagonistic enough for this to be considered a redemption episode. I really liked "Magic Duel" as it was both entertaining and funny, but I felt like the ending with Trixie being redeemed was a bit rushed. I personally didn't mind her redemption since it appears she kept her boastful personality, which is a big bonus for me.

 

As for "Keep Calm and Flutter On", I don't mind this one either because it appears Discord still will keep his personality and isn't really a completely goody-two shoes character now, since he said he'd do good... most of the time.

 

Regardless, I had issues with both of these episodes in that the endings felt a bit rushed, but overall they were both good and I don't actually mind the redeemed characters since it appears they'll still be themselves, except they'll try their best not to do bad anymore.

 

As for redeeming other characters, it just has to be well-done. I find it interesting that an all-powerful evil like Discord has been redeemed yet Diamond Tiara and Silver Spoon are apparently beyond redemption. Then again, only time will tell with those two. I actually would prefer if some of the villains, such as Flim and Flam, returned but didn't get redeemed, as I love villains and always am at the edge of my seat when they return. On that note, I'm betting Sunset Shimmer will be redeemed in Equestria Girls, even if that's her debut movie. Just a hunch is all.

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(edited)

My thought is that it all stems from the popularity villains in general.  In order to have a strong story, you need to have strong antagonists for the main characters to go up against, and FiM is lucky to have a whole roster of compelling bad guys.  After all, people love villains.  You know what to expect from our heroes in a story for the most part, but its the villain that grabs the audience's attention since we don't really know much about them at first other than they're bad news and they need to be stopped.  And the more imposing the bad guy, the more memorable the story is.  Think about it, would the first Star Wars have been as big as it is if the villain was anything other than Darth Vader?  Probably not.

 

Getting back to FiM, its antagonists are pretty impressive on its own right.  Nightmare Moon, Discord, Trixie, Chrysalis, Sombra, Gilda, Flim and Flam, Blueblood and hell even Diamond Tiara and Silver Spoon all have their fans simply because their characters left that much of an impact.  It's only natural therefore that people start playing the 'what if' game as they wonder what would it take to redeem these characters.  Because as much as we love a bad guy, we absolutely ADORE a comeback story (see any Hollywood celebrity or sports athlete who overcame ANYTHING in his/her past). 

 

I agree completely about the appeal of villains, but to me, part of the appeal for some villains is in their nature as antagonists.  Reforming the Joker, for instance, is a terrible idea.  because he was written as an antagonist, as a force of evil, and reforming him would alter a key element of the character's appeal. 

 

If you want to reform a villain, write them initially with the intent of (or potential for) reform to begin with, like with Luna/Nightmare Moon. 

Edited by hawkflame
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We know next to nothing about our villains other than some are/were powerful rulers, and that others appear as jerks.

 

Maybe not so much a redemption episode for every villain (there has to be some constant bad/evil), but perhaps an episode explaining their past so we can actually understand what they were doing, and know a bit more about who they are. Looking at 'Keep Calm and Flutter On', we learned that Discord never really had a friend ever. Just that simple fact was enough to justify his reformation, since he's not totally evil in the first place, more of like Equestria's biggest troll.

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I agree completely about the appeal of villains, but to me, part of the appeal for some villains is in their nature as antagonists.  Reforming the Joker, for instance, is a terrible idea.  because he was written as an antagonist, as a force of evil, and reforming him would alter a key element of the character's appeal. 

 

If you want to reform a villain, write them initially with the intent of (or potential for) reform to begin with, like with Luna/Nightmare Moon. 

 

That still doesn't stop fans making him an anti-hero though.  Some villans are just so appealing that their fans are willing to legitimize their actions and/or delegitimize the protagonists' actions.  I agree that some villains just cant be reformed just on principle alone, but fans are crazy like that. wacko.png  

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I'm actually ok with Discord's reformation, as it's really not all that different from what happened to Q, who Discord was more-or-less based off of in the first place. The circumstances were a bit different, but at the end of the day, Q stopped being  a full-fledged villain, and instead usually ended up helping the main cast out while trolling them at the same time, which I can totally see Discord doing in season 4 onward.

 

As for other antagonists, it's more-or-less already been stated above. A lot of people are suckers for a good redemption story, and given the fact that love and friendship are sort of the main aspects of the show, reforming villains makes sense, as opposed to defeating them and forgetting about them.

 

I'd be okay with Gilda being reformed, seeing as she's barely even an antagonist, she's just a jerk who doesn't know how to be a good friend. I'm sure there's an episode with a good moral that could be made out of that scenario. It'd be interesting to see what happens with Lightning Dust. Do we even know if she was kicked out of the academy, or just demoted? Either way, I can maybe see her resenting Rainbow Dash and trying to sabotage her attempts to join the Wonderbolts, but I could also see them going a different route, with Lightning Dust getting Dash to help her become less reckless, so that she can have another chance. It is a kid's show, after all, and I can see scenarios that could have a friendship moral attached to them being more likely.

 

As for Chrysalis, I'm not sure. The fandom has a soft spot for her, and I'm sure plenty would be okay with her being reformed as well, but I'd like to learn more about her and the changelings first. As of right now, I'd like to see Chrysalis being a recurring villain instead of being reformed, at least for a while. Between the wedding and the comics, she's proven to be one of the series' darker and more threatening characters, and I'm sure there's still a lot we could get out of her being evil.

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As for "Keep Calm and Flutter On", I don't mind this one either because it appears Discord still will keep his personality and isn't really a completely goody-two shoes character now, since he said he'd do good... most of the time.

 

But he'll never be a true threat again.  Discord *broke down* the Elements and pushed the Mane Six to their brink.  The character who did that is gone and replaced only with a watered down version of himself. 

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While I agree that they shouldn't bring back so many antagonists to be redeemed, but the way I see it, there's some that potentially build some good development and history between both the antagonist and those involved, Like Rainbow Dash ad Gilda, or Diamond Tiara/Silver Spoon and the CMC

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I don't want all the villains to be redeemed. Returning  some of them just seems like a bad idea. (Sombra, Lightning Dust, Blueblood, Flim and Flam). While others I think would be cool if they were to be redeemed. (Chrysallis and Gilda) Chrysallis is the villain from my favorite episode to date (A Canterlot Wedding) and I think her return would make for a great episode. As for Gilda I think it would be nice for her to have a change of heart and realize she was being a jerk all the time. (Sort of like Keep Calm and Flutter On)

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(edited)

I liked the Trixie and Discord reformations.  That said, they probably either to come up with a new, powerful villin or find clever ways to give Crysalis and Somber good new stuff to do, because, while Twilight becoming an alicorn didn't make me think she was overpowered, when you combine her, Celestia, Luna, Discord, Trixie, other mane five, etc. on the side of good, then it's going to be a challenge for the writers to make anything feel like a threat.  And if they do come up with things that are threats against that much powerful good, it'll be hard to keep it from feeling like an action show.  I hope they're up to the challenge.

Edited by Dr. Eggnog
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But he'll never be a true threat again.  Discord *broke down* the Elements and pushed the Mane Six to their brink.  The character who did that is gone and replaced only with a watered down version of himself. 

 

True, but what I'm saying is that I don't mind him being reformed, but they should've had a two-part episode for the very reason you stated. It should be a big deal to reform the deadliest villain they've faced thus far, yet they stuffed it into one episode.

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True, but what I'm saying is that I don't mind him being reformed, but they should've had a two-part episode for the very reason you stated. It should be a big deal to reform the deadliest villain they've faced thus far, yet they stuffed it into one episode.

And I think that they shouldn't have reformed him period , because to do so would lose an important part of what made him such a compelling antagonist to begin with.

 

It should have been an epic two part season finale where he once again is a major threat. But the chance for that is now gone.

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And I think that they shouldn't have reformed him period , because to do so would lose an important part of what made him such a compelling antagonist to begin with.

 

It should have been an epic two part season finale where he once again is a major threat. But the chance for that is now gone.

 

Well we probably just have differing opinions in this case, but I do agree on the point that I don't want him reformed simply because I think it could've been handled better if it had to be done.

 

I of course would've preferred for him to keep kicking butt with chaos, but if he must be reformed, then I at least want a two-part epic about it.

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I guess we want to see our favorite villains to be redeemed or we just want to see them how they are when they aren't evil. Or maybe we want to see the villains again.

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While I did like the Trixie and Discord reformations, I do hope they don't reform any of the other villains we've seen so far. With a tiny bit of a minor exception: perhaps give Gilda some little bits of redemption that would make Rainbow Dash willing to hang out with her again. Her presence in the Crystal Heart Spell book just made little sense: why would Rainbow Dash even be spending time with her after the events in Griffon the Brush-Off? I don't want her fully redeemed, but perhaps a little something would be nice. Or, we can have an episode that involves a different take on the story, one that excludes Gilda. We'll see what happens.

 

I do want to see Flim and Flam return, but still as antagonists and still swindling ponies.

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Our little show has some big concepts and messages. One that it may be promoting is redemption. Redemption is a very difficult thing to do, whether it be the victim or the perpetrator.

 

It's fascinating how there are so many dogmas (religious and/or social) that promote the redemption of ourselves, but on the other-hand promote retribution and revenge. Believe me I am not above the norm or getting on a high horse. I too have a guilty part in this hypocrisy.

 

In terms of the show, it was really hard to "forgive" Trixie at the end of Magic Duel, simply because she was insincere and didn't deserve it. I still sort of don't. Yet how Twilight forgave her at the end made me actually respect her character more because she did something that I couldn't do myself.

 

Yeah it's all a cartoon and ponies, but since we're attached to it so much thoughts like this are bound to occur.

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Lol. 'Bronies', 'Wanting', 'Villains', 'Reformed' do not belong in the same sentence :3 It's inaccurate, to say the least. As many posts in this thread clearly show, most fans are not at all interested in villain reformations. And those that are, usually only support it for one specific antagonist, two tops, not as a general philosophy for most or all villains.

 

I personally don't care. Discord's reformation made sense to me from a storyline perspective, as he was doomed to a bland, repetitive cycle if he remained a pure villain. Trixie makes sense to me as well, I guess, though I honestly don't care for her character much so that's not saying anything. Obviously not all villains will be reformed, so it's simply a matter of if the writers' handle it well or not. To me, they have so far. To others, they haven't. Oh well :3 Will have to see what the future holds, now.

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Lol. 'Bronies', 'Wanting', 'Villains', 'Reformed' do not belong in the same sentence :3 It's inaccurate, to say the least. As many posts in this thread clearly show, most fans are not at all interested in villain reformations. And those that are, usually only support it for one specific antagonist, two tops, not as a general philosophy for most or all villains.

 

I personally don't care. Discord's reformation made sense to me from a storyline perspective, as he was doomed to a bland, repetitive cycle if he remained a pure villain. Trixie makes sense to me as well, I guess, though I honestly don't care for her character much so that's not saying anything. Obviously not all villains will be reformed, so it's simply a matter of if the writers' handle it well or not. To me, they have so far. To others, they haven't. Oh well :3 Will have to see what the future holds, now.

 

I have to disagree with your point about Discord being doomed to a bland, repetitive cycle. The guy only really had one episode of villainy and that's it. I don't see how he could get bland or repetitive that fast, especially when villains in other media, such as the Joker or others, have been in a million story lines and still aren't played out. Now, if Discord had a ton more villain episodes, then sure, he might've reached that level where's he bland and played out, but he was only in two episodes so far and in one of them he becomes reformed. I don't see how one could make that claim so early on when we barely even got a taste of the possible villainy he could've caused.

 

Regardless, as I said before, I don't mind him being (mostly) reformed, but I just wish it had been in a two-part episode so that we got a more fleshed out story. Don't get me wrong, I love the angle that Discord never knew the value of friendship so he just callously tossed around the ponies and used him as his playthings for amusement, but I feel that this story is a bit deeper than most and could've used two episodes instead of one.

 

Oh well, I like how things turned out in the end, and I hope there is another Disord episode. I do agree on your first point whole-heartedly though, I rarely see Bronies calling for every antagonist to get reformed. Usually ever Brony has a different antagonist they want to come back and make good with the Mane Six. I personally don't, but that's what I usually see.

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