Villains Being Redeemed

[DiscordAnarchy 770]

First of off I need to state that I don't think Somba was a good villain whatsoever. They talked more about his evilness than they did show it and whenever he was on screen, he was a rather useless villain who did nothing to show his true power.

 

As for Discord's reform. If you watch the episode again Celestia mentions that she has a reason to have Discord on her side. If my theories are correct (with Celestia talking about Self-Sacrifice when it comes to Twilight, pushing Twilight to learn more magic and the reformation of Discord) I believe they are building up for a serious threat hence why they had the need to reform Cordy in order to hopefully have him on their side for this upcoming war.

 

 

He shall return...mark my words

[Rainblow H. Ash 5,090]

Grogar?

 

...

 

You know, I wouldn't be against bringing in some of the old villains from My Little Pony, Grogar included. It would actually be kind of interesting to see how he would play out if he was brought back. I also wouldn't be against Tirek showing back up as well.

 

Well, I guess Tirek and Grogar wouldn't be showing back up, but rather appearing for the first time in the new canon.

[NavelColt 22,876]

I have to disagree with your point about Discord being doomed to a bland, repetitive cycle. The guy only really had one episode of villainy and that's it. I don't see how he could get bland or repetitive that fast, especially when villains in other media, such as the Joker or others, have been in a million story lines and still aren't played out. Now, if Discord had a ton more villain episodes, then sure, he might've reached that level where's he bland and played out, but he was only in two episodes so far and in one of them he becomes reformed. I don't see how one could make that claim so early on when we barely even got a taste of the possible villainy he could've caused.

 

If you read through the topic I linked, the blandness I refer to is the fact that he's a realty-warping imp style villain :3 Which, in fact, do get bland quickly if left to be used over and over, because all that can truly be done is get released from stone, wreak some sort of havoc, and be turned to stone again. The Joker 'and others' are not that kind of villain. I'm saying he'd become repetitive quickly if he remained a villain, not that he already is.

[hawkflame 3,308]

If you read through the topic I linked, the blandness I refer to is the fact that he's a realty-warping imp style villain :3 Which, in fact, do get bland quickly if left to be used over and over, because all that can truly be done is get released from stone, wreak some sort of havoc, and be turned to stone again. The Joker 'and others' are not that kind of villain.

 

Then the solution to me would be to use him very judiciously.  Like, maybe twice at best, with Return of Harmony, and a followup two parter as another season finale or premiere. 

 

Hell, I would have understood if they just didn't use him again, period.  

[NavelColt 22,876]

Then the solution to me would be to use him very judiciously.  Like, maybe twice at best, with Return of Harmony, and a followup two parter as another season finale or premiere. 

 

Hell, I would have understood if they just didn't use him again, period.  

 

Characters change, characters development, antagonists as well If you've found him to become less interesting because of it, that's understandable I guess but still only one point of view. Like Twilicorn, I don't think anyone should truly judge until we see him in S4, post-'redemption'.

[Rainblow H. Ash 5,090]

If you read through the topic I linked, the blandness I refer to is the fact that he's a realty-warping imp style villain :3 Which, in fact, do get bland quickly if left to be used over and over, because all that can truly be done is get released from stone, wreak some sort of havoc, and be turned to stone again. The Joker 'and others' are not that kind of villain. I'm saying he'd become repetitive quickly if he remained a villain, not that he already is.

 

I did, but there's so much more they could do villain-wise with him. If anything, I know that his powers make him a giant threat, but what about the fact that no villain can ever be threatening again? I mean, if they have a reality warping being on their side and some new villain shows up, they can just have Discord turn them good or seal them away or something. I mean, I doubt they're going to cop out and do that, but to me that's going to be a plot hole unless Discord's power somehow gets restricted.

 

Besides, I don't think those powers necessarily make him boring, he was exciting in all of his appearances. I realize your argument on this point, but the fact is he was never bland in-canon on the show, so I don't think that argument should hold water.

[Zygen 6,065]

I don't hear a whole ton of want for reforming, but I don't personally have much of any desires to reform any other villains, it would be to many characters to keep up with anyways, and some I don't have a large desire for them to come back to be reformed.

 

I'm ok with the ones who've been reformed so far, I don't really have a desire for any others though, not that I won't tolerate it, but I don't desire for it.

[NavelColt 22,876]

If anything, I know that his powers make him a giant threat, but what about the fact that no villain can ever be threatening again? I mean, if they have a reality warping being on their side and some new villain shows up, they can just have Discord turn them good or seal them away or something. I mean, I doubt they're going to cop out and do that, but to me that's going to be a plot hole unless Discord's power somehow gets restricted.

 

Besides, I don't think those powers necessarily make him boring, he was exciting in all of his appearances. I realize your argument on this point, but the fact is he was never bland in-canon on the show, so I don't think that argument should hold water.

 

I. Do. Not. Believe. He. Is. Boring You're talking to his biggest fan, here. I'm just stating a fact. I'm not saying he is bland :3 I'm talking about the future. You, yourself, stated in hawk's thread, that:

 

I'm not saying he can't become repetitive, but he's had one good episode of being a great villain and that's it.

 

I agree. He's not bland. But he would become so if they continued to use him as-was. That's all I mean. And I don't feel further arguing the fruitless is worth it, so I'll stop here

[Gabriel Smith 53]

I think a big chunk of it comes from the "love and tolerance" idea being a core central tenant of things. That, and a lot of the villains are only arguably or mildly evil, owning to Alternate Character Interpretation and occasionally a few things in the show. For example:

 

• Trixie - Is a Stage Magician. The whole "bragging" thing? Part of her job. The only reason I can see she went off the deep end was Twilight effectively killing her career. Pretty mild as antagonists go.
• Gilda - ...Nothing to see here, move along...
• Discord - He's the Spirit of Chaos and Disharmony. In short hand, Khorne collects skulls, Menoth builds walls, Discord screws over everyone. Could we really call him evil when he's *technically* doing his job? So yeah, I don't quite agree with the "redeeming" Discord there.
• Flim & Flam - ...Nothing to see here, move along...
• Chrysalis - Probably the most disappointing, y'know on account of her whole plan not making the slightest lick of sense. Honestly, she could have gotten the same result sitting around the diplomatic table - Love is not an exhaustible resource, and I'm pretty sure Celestia and Luna might allow you to stay around if you just talked about it. It probably doesn't help there's a chunk of the fanbase who see her as a Well Intentioned Extreamist (and there are one or two lines to help back that up).
• Sombra - Here he is, the most eeeeeeeeevil villain...and probably the most hilariously ineffectual as well. Okay, this does in part owe itself to bad story structure, but how long did this guy rule the Crystal Empire for? Because for all I know, he was in charge for about a week. Yes, the man may be a tinpot dictator, but I'm sure a lot of people can run various differant theories over the whole mess of an episode that was. Say it with me now - "Socially Awkward Sombra".

Do let me know if I missed anybody off, but most of them seem very mildly or arguably evil, and thus redeemable to some extent.

 

tl;dr: I'm sure the answer lies somewhere between Alternate Character Interpretation, some Clues given in the show, personal headcanon and an attachment to/perceived personal investment with the Charecter.

 

That's all I got for now.

[Rainblow H. Ash 5,090]

I. Do. Not. Believe. He. Is. Boring You're talking to his biggest fan, here. I'm just stating a fact. I'm not saying he is bland :3 I'm talking about the future. You, yourself, stated in hawk's thread, that:

 

I agree. He's not bland. But he would become so if they continued to use him as-was. That's all I mean. And I don't feel further arguing the fruitless is worth it, so I'll stop here

 

Oh well, I guess this debate is over then. My point was that you can't speak of the future all that well when he has been fresh in both episodes he appeared in. I did say that if they continued to use him a lot it would be boring, but I just don't see how your argument makes sense when he was never boring in the show itself.

 

But I guess that's that. Keep the chaos burning, Chaotic.

[NavelColt 22,876]

Oh well, I guess this debate is over then. My point was that you can't speak of the future all that well when he has been fresh in both episodes he appeared in. I did say that if they continued to use him a lot it would be boring, but I just don't see how your argument makes sense when he was never boring in the show itself.

 

But I guess that's that. Keep the chaos burning, Chaotic.

 

Because he wasn't doing the same thing in his second appearance :3 And, my argument never had how he is currently in the show as a factor. I've only talked of the future. So I think it's perfectly valid.

 

Yupe.

[Rainblow H. Ash 5,090]

Because he wasn't doing the same thing in his second appearance :3 And, my argument never had how he is currently in the show as a factor. I've only talked of the future. So I think it's perfectly valid.

 

Yupe.

 

Yeah, but I just don't see how one can talk of a bland future when there isn't a bland present. Discord is fresh like one day old lettuce, ain't no way he be gettin' boring that quickly.

 

Yup yup yup!

 

But I think we're not going to get anywhere on this. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this point.

[NavelColt 22,876]

Yeah, but I just don't see how one can talk of a bland future when there isn't a bland present. Discord is fresh like one day old lettuce, ain't no way he be gettin' boring that quickly.

 

Because everything, -everything- gets bland sooner or later. That's fact. My argument was all about how he'd be libel to get bland faster than normal, due to the type of villain he is.

 

Or we could stop responding :3

[Rainblow H. Ash 5,090]

Because everything, -everything- gets bland sooner or later. That's fact. My argument was all about how he'd be libel to get bland faster than normal, due to the type of villain he is.

 

Or we could stop responding :3

 

Yeah, but by that argument Rainbow Dash or especially Twilight should've gotten bland by now. Like I said, it's a possibility that his powers would make him get bland, but I didn't see that issue arise in the show at all. I think he at least one more villain episode left in him, or perhaps "Keep Calm and Flutter On" could've been a two-part episode.

 

We could... but Administrators first.

 

*Smiles coyly*

[NavelColt 22,876]

Yeah, but by that argument Rainbow Dash or especially Twilight should've gotten bland by now. Like I said, it's a possibility that his powers would make him get bland, but I didn't see that issue arise in the show at all. I think he at least one more villain episode left in him, or perhaps "Keep Calm and Flutter On" could've been a two-part episode.

 

We could... but Administrators first.

 

*Smiles coyly*

 

No, the logic doesn't apply to them They're not reality-warping beings, nor antagonists. A reality warper can't be beaten through traditional means. There's only so many ways they can be used in a storyline uniquely. Break out from stone > cause havoc > sealed away again. Rinse and repeat. That's what it would continue to be. It's all in the topic I linked.

 

Nope :3

[Rainblow H. Ash 5,090]

No, the logic doesn't apply to them They're not reality-warping beings, nor antagonists. A reality warper can't be beaten through traditional means. There's only so many ways they can be used in a storyline uniquely. Break out from stone > cause havoc > sealed away again. Rinse and repeat. That's what it would continue to be. It's all in the topic I linked.

 

Nope :3

 

True but we're talking about a land of magical talking ponies and creatures, I'm sure the awesome team that brought us all of it could get creative with Discord and his villainy. And as I also said, now that Discord is reformed I do hope he will return and bring hijinks of a different kind perhaps. So really, it's not big deal to me, I just disagree and think he had one more good comeback before getting either reformed or tossed away for good into the royal garden.

 

So, manners are going out the window, eh? That's way I like it.

 

*Plops down on the couch and crosses arms*

[NavelColt 22,876]

I just disagree and think he had one more good comeback before getting either reformed or tossed away for good into the royal garden.

 

So, manners are going out the window, eh? That's way I like it.

 

*Plops down on the couch and crosses arms*

 

I never said he didn't have another good return in him. I didn't say, 'if he was a villain past The Return of Harmony he'd be bland', I just said the proccess itself is doomed to become monotonous. For the sake of arguement, three or so times or more. So, no, there is no disagreeing there, because I agree with that.

 

Checkmate :3

[Rainblow H. Ash 5,090]

I never said he didn't have another good return in him. I didn't say, 'if he was a villain past The Return of Harmony he'd be bland', I just said the proccess itself is doomed to become monotonous. For the sake of arguement, three or so times or more. So, no, there is no disagreeing there, because I agree with that.

 

Checkmate :3

 

Then I don't see why we're arguing, cause that's what I was saying. I think Discord could've done a bit more as a villain and then had a deeper conversion over to the side of not being a complete jerk. So like... I guess we agree now?

 

*Flips over the chessboard*

 

Wait... we were playing chess?

[NavelColt 22,876]

Then I don't see why we're arguing, cause that's what I was saying. I think Discord could've done a bit more as a villain and then had a deeper conversion over to the side of not being a complete jerk. So like... I guess we agree now?

 

*Flips over the chessboard*

 

Wait... we were playing chess?

 

Well, you weren't being clear, that's probably why xP

 

Yup. And I win.

 

Anyway, moving on from Discord. Chrysalis probably won't be redeemed, nor Sombra. Chrysalis came back in the comics and was still very much a villain, and Sombra is assumadly dead. Even if he isn't, I don't see him becoming good or even neutral.

[Rainblow H. Ash 5,090]

Well, you weren't being clear, that's probably why xP

 

Yup. And I win.

 

Anyway, moving on from Discord. Chrysalis probably won't be redeemed, nor Sombra. Chrysalis came back in the comics and was still very much a villain, and Sombra is assumadly dead. Even if he isn't, I don't see him becoming good or even neutral.

 

Mayhap we both weren't being clear, Monsieur Chaotic?

 

Best of seventy-one?

 

Regardless, I agree about Chrysalis and Sombra for the most part.

 

I just want Flim and Flam to come back darn it and sing another one of their awesome musical numbers.

 

Who's with me on that one? Although if redemption for them is on the table... well, that might be okay with me. The only thing I ever ask for is that it's done well. That's it.

 

Then again, this topic was really made to discuss why Bronies want these villains and antagonists to be redeemed, and I think that it's been answered. I mean, every Brony has a different opinion on this, but I don't think there's an overarching or unified opinion when it comes to this subject. And this subject sure has come up a lot lately...

[Creamy Arty 6,251]

@100 beasts kaidou

 

Your thread on perspectives regarding the redeeming of villains has been merged with this one, as they were made on the same premise and followed the same general direction.
 

I love a good redemption story too, it is one the many reasons why Luna is tied with Applejack and Twilight for my favorite pony and one of the reasons why Revan is both my favorite jedi and is tied with Darth Bane for my favorite sith. But as powerful as a storytelling tool as it is if it is used too much or for character where it wouldn't make too much sense than it loses whatever power it once had. And since this shows focuses so much on slice of life episodes with morals it might inadvertantly give off the moral that everyone can be changed which is unfortunately not the case and therefore a bad moral. It is however also a bad moral to say that because one side is wrong that the other side is automatically in the right which is the problem I have with the "moral" of Griffon The Brush Off.

 

Agreed, and I would have to evaluate each of this show's villains on a case-by-case basis. I was just briefly trying to explain the phenomena as a whole, not so much justify anything.

[Shift 4,271]

I'm absolutely fine with the redeeming of villains.

 

It shows that inside, villains aren't who we think we are. Discord threw the world into a reign of chaos, but that's probably because he had a rough childhood with no friends, but deep down, he always wanted one. It helps expand on the character.

 

Trixie used to be a boaster, but guess what? Now she's the 'Humble and Apologetic Trixie'. She's still Trixie, except she learned not to get her ego get in front of her friendships.

 

This is one thing I love about MLP:

CHANGE.

 

Scootaloo wanted to get tutored by Dash? She's getting tutored by Dash. Dash wants to be in the Wonderbolts? She's (Training) in the Wonderbolts. Trixie was a jerk? She's a fair and honest (mostly) pony. Twilight Sparkle, destined for great things, stuck being a librarian? She's now a princess. Fluttershy a pushover? She's no longer a pushover. Discord evil and chaotic because he's lonely? He now has a friend in Fluttershy.

 

Do you know how TIRING it is when shows have no change? When every single last joke is used AGAIN. AND AGAIN. AND AGAIN TILL IT GETS BORING?!

 

tl;dr: I think it's great.

 

Edit: I just realized I posted on this thread with an entirely different opinion. I am so awesome.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Neutral Shift

[Dusty Soul 2,611]

I like it when Like Discord and Trixie they can still maintain their personalities.  I agree as I do like it when characters are redeemed, when balanced with actually destroying some villains (Sombra)

[Ladybug 6]

I don't mind villain being redeemed, I just don't want all of them to though. I'll take Luna, Trixie and even Discord. But I hope they leave more like, Sombra and Crysalis and many other villains they create evil just to show that not everyone wants to be, or likes being 'good'. 

[Galen 1,353]

i personally think its great i think it also adds more to the show to see characters like discord and trixie from a differant perspective what do you all think

 

I really like it as well. One thing to remember is that this is a children's show, and I believe ideally, you'd want kids to learn from very young that even the most evil sort of people can be redeemed if you give them the right reasons. That was the purpose of Discord's redemption. Even as early as the opening episodes, we're given that message when Luna is brought back to her sister's side (and becomes more awesome than her sister to boot).

 

On a side note, what I'd like to see in the show is a good character going bad. The comics (which btw I haven't read) seem to take that direction somewhat but I won't mention more than that in case others haven't been spoiled as much as me, but that's not been touched in the show, and I'd certainly like to see something like that happening.