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TheGr3ml1n

(Theory/Possible Spoilers) Is Celestia actually Clover the Clever?

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Alright, so this is my first major post. I don't think this has been brought up as a topic before (I searched for it and found no results), so I figured this was as good as any a reason to create my first forum discussion.

 

Plus, it's pretty long, so I thought it probably deserved it's own topic (as opposed to a wall-of-text reply). happy.png

 

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A while back, one of my brony friends and I came up with this theory (which I realized later some other people had thought of as well).

 

We were contemplating Celestia's backstory, trying to figure out if the writers had snuck anything into the show relating to her, or coming up with our own ideas about where she came from. After we started discussing Hearth's Warming Eve (the only episode that seems to provide real backstory on the founding of Equestria), we started questioning why Celestia wasn't even mentioned in the episode. You'd think that an episode about the founding of Equestria would have a reference to Celestia, since she is the ruler of the land? Not only that, but we know she's been alive for hundreds if not thousands of years, so shouldn't she have been alive even in those times?

Then my friend came up with a theory.

 

What if Celestia is, in fact, Clover the Clever?

 

Now, before you dismiss the idea, think of the awesome mythological similarities this would have, more specifically related to the legends of Camelot. We already know that there are some similarities between MLP and the Arthurian legends, specifically the inclusion of the city of Canterlot (a pun off of "Camelot"), and that Star Swirl the Bearded is in fact Equestria's Merlin (confirmed at the writers panel).

 

Now, I am by no means an expert in the stories of King Arthur and Merlin, but what little I do know is that Merlin was King Arthur's personal advisor and mentor. And since the Canterlot Castle is ruled by Celestia, and also since we already know she's presumably a thousand years old, it seems very possible that Clover the Clever is in fact Celestia before her ascension to Alicornhood.

 

On top of that, there seems to be a certain significance to having Twilight play Clover in the story. I, like i'm sure many others have, once watched the Disney interpretation of King Arthur, called The Sword in the Stone. In this movie, Arthur is portrayed as a servant (similar to how Clover is portrayed to the ruler of the time, Princess Platinum), and Merlin as his mentor. Merlin trains and teaches him for a while before he proves himself by removing the legendary Excalibur from the stone, and is crowned king.

 

How is this similar to Clover the Clever?

 

Well, Clover was a servant to the Princess before Equestria's founding. When she, along with the three other members of the pony races met up with eachother, she was successful in banishing the Windigoes using the magic of friendship. Not only that, but she also displayed a powerful ability in magic, very similar to Twilight's.

 

The significance of having Twilight play Clover's part, is because we know that Twilight ascended to become an Alicorn. We also know that Clover was a very powerful wielder of magic, similar to Twilight, and that she was monumental to the founding of Equestria. Who would be better to be crowned the ruler of the new-found Equestria, than Clover the Clever? And if for some strange reason Clover the Clever was not in fact Celestia, then how come this is the first we've ever heard of her, and she's never mentioned in the show again?

 

One last thing to note, based on the way Celestia and Luna have spoken about Star Swirl, it almost seems like they knew him personally. But we know that he was in fact mentioned in Hearth's Warming Eve and they weren't. So the question is this, is there some giant lapse of continuity, or is it in fact true that Clover the Clever is actually Celestia?

 

(and one more quick thing, it is worth noting that the sun and moon are specifically mentioned to be controlled by a group of unicorns, and NOT Celestia and Luna in this time. So that would mean that they hadn't always controlled the rotation of the sun and moon)

 

 

What are your thoughts? Does it seem likely they would go this far in the mythology of the show? Will Season 4 delve into this at all? Are my friend and I simply conspiracy nuts? Please, discuss. laugh.png

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*mind blown*

 

Wow, I've never thought of that before! I too was wondering where Celestia came in...and this is actually a pretty good idea!

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Huh.

 

I never thought of that, but it is now trying to take a place in my personal head canon.

 

That and Starswirl the Bearded being Discord.

 

That would just add so many layers to their relationship, coincidentally.

 

That just leaves the question as to where Luna fits in all of it.

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Well, you very well might be conspiracy nuts, but that would mean I am too! :P This is an amazing theory that I have never thought of, which would go hand-in-hand with my side headcanon of Discord being Starswirl. I have a better idea of where he came from, but if Celestia being Clover is true, than Discord being Starswirl becomes practically canon! This is a really cool idea, and even if this is never mentioned in the show, there will always be a shadow of a doubt in my mind now! ^_^

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Well done. Yes, we're still missing the piece on Luna, but that's a pretty good assembly you've got going there. :)

 

Hrm... Doesn't quite fit my own headcannon, as in my version Celestia and Luna are born as alicorns to differentiate them from Cadence and Twilight, but with a bit of creative fiddling....

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Well done. Yes, we're still missing the piece on Luna, but that's a pretty good assembly you've got going there. smile.png

 

Hrm... Doesn't quite fit my own headcannon, as in my version Celestia and Luna are born as alicorns to differentiate them from Cadence and Twilight, but with a bit of creative fiddling....

 

Hmm... perhaps maybe they were born with abilities much more incredible than ponies of their type, and when they were realized they reached their full potential? I do believe that Twilight may end up being in the category of power such as Celestia and Luna, because of Lauren Faust's original intention to have Twilight be Celestia's heir. However, I do not believe that Cadence is in that category (I believe there's a distinguishable difference between simply normal Alicorns and "super" Alicorns, assuming of course that Cadence wasn't just thrown in for toys, and doesn't cause a major fault in continuity)

 

Ah well, hopefully the long awaited and promised Celestia and Luna backstory episode will finally air this upcoming season, and we can have answers to all these questions.

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...

...

...

 

I'm alive?!?!

 

No, seriously.

 

Anyway, it seems very logical when you think about it. But I have one question. The Sword And The Stone was most likely passive magic. I have no idea what kind of magic was used in Harths Warmings Eve, because I haven't watched it yet, but how could the two magical actions be related?

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(edited)

...

...

...

 

I'm alive?!?!

 

No, seriously.

 

Anyway, it seems very logical when you think about it. But I have one question. The Sword And The Stone was most likely passive magic. I have no idea what kind of magic was used in Harths Warmings Eve, because I haven't watched it yet, but how could the two magical actions be related?

 

If the show staff were indeed basing it off of the legends of King Arthur, The Sword in the Stone would act more as an analogy for that moment of "realization", similar in a sense to how Arthur truly realized he was worthy of becoming king when he was able to pull the sword from the stone (and coincidentally, the moment that Clover the Clever defeated the Windigoes, as well as the moment Twilight discovered the meaning of Star Swirl's spell).

 

In regard to it being passive magic, the magic Twilight used was not one with any harmful or offensive intentions, but the Windigoes, (which are powerful magic beings that feed on hatred) would naturally be drawn away from such magic, because their very fabric of existence relies on conflict and war, and not friendship and harmony.

Edited by TheGr3ml1n

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She probably is, but I guess the show likes to show some mythology or legends off of other civilizations in history. But, it shows a lot of historic references, and I guess it has something to do with a civilization.

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(edited)

It's a pretty good idea, but I'm not going to believe this one.

 

For one thing, the play was about the founding of Equestria. Not about Celestia and Luna's ruling the land. The 2 sisters would not come into play until, Discord attacked Equestria. So she would not be there or even mentioned in the play.

 

I don't think it's a big deal that Twilight played Clover. Twilight knows the most about Star Swirl. So it turn she would also know about Clover because she would have studied Clover to. Another thing is we don't really know if Clover was around when Celestia and Luna ruled. They could have know about him or they could have just read about his adventures. Still could be up for debate.

 

Also where is Luna? I just have a hard time believing that she would have a sister that matched Clover to. 

 

So it's an alright theory (not a spoiler) but there are still a few holes you need to fill in.

Edited by pinkiefan1287

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(edited)

It's a pretty good idea, but I'm not going to believe this one.

 

For one thing, the play was about the founding of Equestria. Not about Celestia and Luna's ruling the land. The 2 sisters would not come into play until, Discord attacked Equestria. So she would not be there or even mentioned in the play.

 

I don't think it's a big deal that Twilight played Clover. Twilight knows the most about Star Swirl. So it turn she would also know about Clover because she would have studied Clover to. Another thing is we don't really know if Clover was around when Celestia and Luna ruled. They could have know about him or they could have just read about his adventures. Still could be up for debate.

 

Also where is Luna? I just have a hard time believing that she would have a sister that matched Clover to. 

 

So it's an alright theory (not a spoiler) but there are still a few holes you need to fill in.

 

The problem with any theory is that we don't know enough about the show's canonical history to say with certainty one way or the other. The one big hole with this theory (which, if it does end up being at least partially accurate, i'm sure could be fairly easily explained) is that Luna was not included in the founding story of Equestria. I don't have an explanation for it, because it seems we know even less about Luna's past than we know about Celestia's.

 

Now, relating to the timeline differences, we don't know for sure when Discord attacked, nor do we know if Celestia and Luna were around during that time. It could very well be, in the case that Celestia truly is Clover the Clever, that during this period of time without the Elements of Harmony, she was powerless against Discord (or banished to the Sun/Moon). It was not until she discovered the elements later with her sister, that they were able to defeat Discord.

 

This is mainly speculating at this point, because again, between the founding of Equestria and the introduction of Discord there isn't much to go in terms of canon. However, if for some crazy reason the rumor that Discord was actually Starswirl the Bearded (as was apparently leaked), possibly caused by his corruption in desire to become an Alicorn, it does provide a lot of interesting backstory on the relationship between Clover, and Starswirl (Celestia, and Discord).

 

I am more hesitant to accept this theory, because there is very little in canon that has been used to support it. (plus, as much as I do have faith in the writer's abilities, i'm not sure if they would go on such an awesome route as this). On the other hoof, the evidence supporting the idea that Clover could be Celestia is much more plausible, since it could go hand-in-hand with the stories of King Arthur and Camelot. We already know that FiM parodies those stories, with the inclusion of "Merlin", and "Camelot". I find it difficult to believe that with all that, they wouldn't have designed the formation of Canterlot with that in mind.

 

At the moment however, the most applicable pony that could have become the ruler of Equestria and Canterlot is Clover, because of what she did, and because of the similarities she shares with Twilight. So I do find it odd, being the apprentice of Starswirl himself, and managing to perform such high level magic, that she wouldn't be rewarded with major recognition and known across Equestria for what she did. At the very least, it seems highly likely that the history of Equestria is influenced by Arthurian legend, and that Clover the Clever had a much bigger role in things than was initially let on (the similarities just seem too obvious to ignore).

 

On the case of this being a spoiler post, it isn't really, I merely posted possible spoilers in the case that some people didn't want to know of certain things that may or may not actually occur in the show (especially since Celestia is supposed to be such a mysterious character).

 

Also of course, if I was a writer and I had a mysterious character I wanted to implement into the story, I would be likely to place certain  hints and clues as to the true nature and history of said character throughout the show, in order to make the impact of their reveal much more meaningful.

Edited by TheGr3ml1n

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hmm interesting theory. Im a big fan of any references to Arthurian lore so I would welcome this. I would be interested to know Celestia's motivation for changing her name in the legend. 

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(edited)

Okay, here are my thoughts on Celestia's and Luna's background. Perhaps it's a bit redundant, perhaps I get ninja'd because it takes me a while to type in english.

 

There are at least two things in 'Hearth's Warming Eve' that are very... insightful.

 

1) It is mentioned, that sun and moon were initially raised and lowered by unicorns.

2) We see two alicorns on that banner in the foundation-of-Equestria-scene.

 

Think about that. I know, the term 'alicorn' is perhaps younger than the production of season two. But we see one of the actors in the play in that episode raise a sun. Maybe the banner's motif is just a symbolism for day and night and not repesentative for Celestia and Luna. Maybe they even represented two other alicorns (Most speculative but since so many things have changed since that episode, it may be canon someday). So far, your theory, Th3Gr3ml1n, can be valid. We don't know if Clover is possibly Celestia or if the unicorrns just temporarily controlled the cycle of day and night.

 

I may explain my own ideas at this point. I think, Celestia and Luna were two unicorns. Some of those who raised and lowered sun and moon. I think it was a collective task in the first place. And then, at some point for some reason, this ability was connected just to the two princesses. What made them not just strong magic-users, but also magic-sources with unique abilities and also caused their 'immortality'. The physical representations of two cosmic aspects. Very symbolic. Maybe it was because of Discord, because they found the elements and needed to do so to restore and maintain harmony. Maybe a whole different reason.

 

But there is one thing that might, just might, speak against your theory. A thing that has been established as a strong factor in the show since then. Not even to mention, that the writers possibly didn't have any concept for the whole background at that time.  

 

Destiny.

 

Every stronger characterized pony appears to have a hint in its name if it goes for special talent and destiny. Of course, Celestia could only be Clover's title/name as a princess. But something tells me, that Celestia and Luna have always been Celestia and Luna. Just without wings and ethereal manes but with their cutiemarks in the beginning. That they knew Starswirl personally is a thing that is most likely true. How else should Celestia have gotten his scrapbook? It is the most likely way.

Edited by StatesTheOblivious

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This is a very valid theory, and it could easily become canon. It could also just as easily become non-canon, because we haven't been given much information on Celestia and Luna's backstories. I say at this point in time, there's too little information for it to go either way. Still an awesome theory, and I admire your ability to think inside the chimney wink.png

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(edited)

 

 

Now, relating to the timeline differences, we don't know for sure when Discord attacked, nor do we know if Celestia and Luna were around during that time. It could very well be, in the case that Celestia truly is Clover the Clever, that during this period of time without the Elements of Harmony, she was powerless against Discord (or banished to the Sun/Moon). It was not until she discovered the elements later with her sister, that they were able to defeat Discord.  

 

The way Celestia described it, she and Luna were watching from some other area. Still this could mean a lot. Where they watching in an area only Alicorn are at? Where they watching as young unicorns? Or were they watching as a ruler and a sister?

The story could mean anything really.

 

am more hesitant to accept this theory, because there is very little in canon that has been used to support it. (plus, as much as I do have faith in the writer's abilities, i'm not sure if they would go on such an awesome route as this). On the other hoof, the evidence supporting the idea that Clover could be Celestia is much more plausible, since it could go hand-in-hand with the stories of King Arthur and Camelot. We already know that FiM parodies those stories, with the inclusion of "Merlin", and "Camelot". I find it difficult to believe that with all that, they wouldn't have designed the formation of Canterlot with that in mind.

 

Well I do believe that Star Swirl was based off of Merlin, but  Canterlot was basted off of a Castle in Lord of the Ring. 

 

 

 

At the moment however, the most applicable pony that could have become the ruler of Equestria and Canterlot is Clover, because of what she did, and because of the similarities she shares with Twilight. So I do find it odd, being the apprentice of Starswirl himself, and managing to perform such high level magic, that she wouldn't be rewarded with major recognition and known across Equestria for what she did. At the very least, it seems highly likely that the history of Equestria is influenced by Arthurian legend, and that Clover the Clever had a much bigger role in things than was initially let on (the similarities just seem too obvious to ignore).  

 

Kinda off on that. True, it was Clovers magic that was used to save the day, but it would not work with out the help from the earth pony and the pegasus. So why are they not getting to rule and why are the other 3 rulers getting fired from their jobs? It would just work a lot better if they stayed united and worked in as a group. The story just sounds off to me if a unicorn is the ruler in the end, because it shows that they are better than earth and pegasus.

 

Still the idea might work, I'm just not believing it tell something in the show or comic happens. 

Edited by pinkiefan1287

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I was saving this for my worldbuilding blog, but I'll give a brief version of my own headcannon:

 

We know about five official alicorns in the show so far. Celestia, Luna, Cadence, Twilight, and the unnamed princess that drank the love poison. What we do know is that Cadence and Twilight are both ascended alicorns (at least according to the Crystal Heart Spell book, which may or may not be cannon depending on who you ask.) and Celestia and Luna were *born* alicorns according to Lauren Faust (which again may or may not be cannon as that detail hasn't made it into the show itself yet.)

 

What if, to be born an alicorn, you need to be born *of* an alicorn. The only alicorn we know of that could possibly be Celestia's and Luna's mother is that unnamed Princess that was poisoned. It fits time-wise, as that story's tag line was 'A Dragon Came, The Kingdom Fell, and Chaos Reigned'. Chaos reigned... that sounds suspiciously like Discord, that does. That puts Discord and the young princesses together, gives them enough time to grow up to some extent, to get Discord stoned by them

 

Ooooh, let's get freaky with this and get into true speculation. The unnamed Prince was magically besotted with the Princess, but being a mother might have broken the spell for her. The Prince was pretty skilled in experimental magic, to develop the love poison in the first place, so he kept experimenting. He was the one who brought the Dragon. Dragons are powered by greed, which isn't that far from lust. In an attempt to make himself 'better' for his love, he blended himself with the power of a dragon, and a variety of other creatures.

 

He made himself into Discord.

 

Discord is what remains of Celestia's and Luna's *father*.

 

It's still possible to blend the two theories together, if you assume that the Hearth's Warming Eve tale is leaving out what the author thought was 'irrelevant' or politically dangerous information, like Clover the Clever actually being an alicorn rather than just an unicorn. And Starswirl being Clover's *father* rather than just her mentor.

 

Of course if you want to go weird places with other non-cannon information; earlier generations of MLP toys had a Star Swirl, but as a mare. My thought being that she disguised herself as a stallion (why it's always Starswirl *the Bearded*, rather than just Starswirl), to get the respect she needed. In which case maybe Starswirl did manage to ascend to alicorn-hood, and was the *Princess* in the love poison fairy tale. That would make Starswirl the princesses' mother, of course... blink.png

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(edited)

Well I do believe that Star Swirl was based off of Merlin, but  Canterlot was basted off of a Castle in Lord of the Ring. 

 

 

Kinda off on that. True, it was Clovers magic that was used to save the day, but it would not work with out the help from the earth pony and the pegasus. So why are they not getting to rule and why are the other 3 rulers getting fired from their jobs? It would just work a lot better if they stayed united and worked in as a group. The story just sounds off to me if a unicorn is the ruler in the end, because it shows that they are better than earth and pegasus.

 

Still the idea might work, I'm just not believing it tell something in the show or comic happens. 

 

You do bring up valid points. My personal headcanon regarding the design of Canterlot based off of the LOTR castle, is that it's specifically the design used, and not the actual history of the castle (more for looks than anything else). The big reason I consider there to be relevance to Camelot is the amount of times Starswirl is brought up in the show or alluded to.
 
As for the three species coming together like that, yes it is true that each species had a big part to do in defeating the Windigoes. However, if we're to take the play to be literal in several ways, then Clover has a display of magic that is very similar to that of Twilight's (super-mega-powerful) and the Elements of Harmony, and we also know that, because of Twilight's abilities, she eventually ascended to become an Alicorn with the help of her friends. (people have actually expressed similar issues with this, saying they prefer if Twilight stay the way she were instead of "rising" above her friends)
 
The connection I made was this: Clover has reason to become an Alicorn. However, we only know of one other Alicorn that could ever match the description, that being Celestia.
 
Of course, you're right in saying there isn't enough evidence to say if this is true or not, so we'll just have to wait and see if there's any merit to this theory at all (hopefully with that evasive backstory episode).
 

 

Discord is what remains of Celestia's and Luna's *father*.

 

It's still possible to blend the two theories together, if you assume that the Hearth's Warming Eve tale is leaving out what the author thought was 'irrelevant' or politically dangerous information, like Clover the Clever actually being an alicorn rather than just an unicorn. And Starswirl being Clover's *father* rather than just her mentor.

 

Of course if you want to go weird places with other non-cannon information; earlier generations of MLP toys had a Star Swirl, but as a mare. My thought being that she disguised herself as a stallion (why it's always Starswirl *the Bearded*, rather than just Starswirl), to get the respect she needed. In which case maybe Starswirl did manage to ascend to alicorn-hood, and was the *Princess* in the love poison fairy tale. That would make Starswirl the princesses' mother, of course... img-1529051-1-blink.png

 

Those are some pretty interesting theories. The one that I have a slight issue with, is that Starswirl was female and needed to disguise herself as a male to gain respect. Granted, it's entirely possible, but from everything we've heard so far Equestrian society seems to be the complete opposite in regard to the value of a certain gender's social status. Aside from the fact that we haven't seen a single male Alicorn in the show, there's also the case of mares running the majority of jobs in the workplace (with a few exceptions).

 

However, it could be explained if there was a radical shift in cultural views over the last thousand years (possibly due to Discord?).

 

Personally, I like to believe that Starswirl couldn't become an Alicorn because one, he wasn't female, and also because he wasn't as in-tune with the concept of "Friendship is Magic". Then, if I were to expand this theory into conspiracy territory, I would say he was consumed by the desire to become an Alicorn, but with the solution to his spell always just beyond his reach, he chose the next best thing: The Spirit of Chaos.

 

Though one thing does intrigue me (going off a little bit on what you originally said). One possible theory is that there was actually a generation gap (I believe it probably would only be one generation, seeing as we don't know of any other rulers of Equestria besides Celestia), it might solve several holes in this theory. It could be that Celestia (as well as Luna) is actually Clover's daughter, after Clover herself became an Alicorn. This would establish the theory that Celestia and Luna were born as Alicorns, and have always been Alicorns, as well as the possibility that they were born right around the time of Discord.

 

What would make it even more interesting is if Discord was in fact Starswirl, and that he was once married to Clover. Clover had Celestia and Luna without Discord's knowledge, making it so that Celestia and Discord had no true idea that they are in fact related, and that Celestia was never fully aware that Discord was in fact Starswirl. Of course, as amazing as this sounds, it seems it might be a little dark and mature for a kids show, (as well as complex) but who knows? The show has surprised me before.

 

(BTW relating to the theory that the unnamed princess could be involved with the story, it is definitely possible. However, I have heard somewhere, i'm not sure where, that making her an Alicorn was actually an animation mistake. Again though, it's possible, (might've even been done on purpose) because we know that the staff will almost flat-out lie about certain things if it means not revealing spoilers.)

 

 

But there is one thing that might, just might, speak against your theory. A thing that has been established as a strong factor in the show since then. Not even to mention, that the writers possibly didn't have any concept for the whole background at that time.  

 

Destiny.

 

Every stronger characterized pony appears to have a hint in its name if it goes for special talent and destiny. Of course, Celestia could only be Clover's title/name as a princess. But something tells me, that Celestia and Luna have always been Celestia and Luna. Just without wings and ethereal manes but with their cutiemarks in the beginning. That they knew Starswirl personally is a thing that is most likely true. How else should Celestia have gotten his scrapbook? It is the most likely way.

 

It is true, that Clover doesn't seem to quite fit as the name of Celestia. However, we aren't actually aware of what Clover's true talents were, or her destiny, because ironically enough it was Twilight that played her in the play. If, for whatever reason, (be it Celestia didn't want others to know of her past, specifically enemies, or another reason) Celestia wanted to change her name in the history books, Clover the Clever could be a good Pseudonym.

 

Also, I personally like to believe that Lauren Faust thought the history of Equestria out ahead of time, and that it's only up to the writers to think of creative ways to implement the stories into the show. Because if that weren't true, then there would most assuredly be huge continuity gaps in the future of the series. Thankfully, evidence so far has shown minimal conflicts in canon, so we can assume that there is an actual established storyline from the creation of Equestria, up until the point of the return of Nightmare Moon.

Edited by TheGr3ml1n

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(edited)

Those are some pretty interesting theories. The one that I have a slight issue with, is that Starswirl was female and needed to disguise herself as a male to gain respect. Granted, it's entirely possible, but from everything we've heard so far Equestrian society seems to be the complete opposite in regard to the value of a certain gender's social status. Aside from the fact that we haven't seen a single male Alicorn in the show, there's also the case of mares running the majority of jobs in the workplace (with a few exceptions).

 

However, it could be explained if there was a radical shift in cultural views over the last thousand years (possibly due to Discord?).

 

Personally, I like to believe that Starswirl couldn't become an Alicorn because one, he wasn't female, and also because he wasn't as in-tune with the concept of "Friendship is Magic". Then, if I were to expand this theory into conspiracy territory, I would say he was consumed by the desire to become an Alicorn, but with the solution to his spell always just beyond his reach, he chose the next best thing: The Spirit of Chaos.

 

Yeah, the 'for respect' thing was just the off-the-top-of-my-head explanation as to why Starswirl would feel the need to live as a stallion. Mainly because I was watching Inspector Murdoch the other night and it had a similar plot running due to it's Edwardian setting. We always assume the culture of Equestria is effectively static, but take any thousand years of our own history and the shifts in culture within that time are extreme. There's another blog post in the making... Hrm....

 

 

Though one thing does intrigue me. If there was actually a generation gap (I believe it probably would only be one generation, seeing as we don't know of any other rulers of Equestria besides Celestia), it might solve several holes in this theory. It could be that Celestia (as well as Luna) is actually Clover's daughter, after Clover herself became an Alicorn. This would establish the theory that Celestia and Luna were born as Alicorns, and have always been Alicorns, as well as the possibility that they were born right around the time of Discord.

 

What would make it even more interesting is if Discord was in fact Starswirl, and that he was once married to Clover. Clover had Celestia and Luna without Discord's knowledge, making it so that Celestia and Discord had no true idea that they are in fact related, and that Celestia was never fully aware that Discord was in fact Starswirl. Of course, as amazing as this sounds, it seems it might be a little dark and mature for a kids show, (as well as complex) but who knows? The show has surprised me before.

 

 

That's a much better leap, I like that one. Clover ascended to Alicorn-hood (because of the events of Hearths Warming Eve?), became a Princess, and was then the subject to the love poison from Starswirl. Gives birth to Celestia and Luna, and was released from the poison by experiencing a form of 'true love' for her children. Starswirl goes nuts due to the loss of his compelled love-interest, becomes Discord, and takes down the Kingdom. Celestia and Luna grow up in a world ruled by Discord, assemble the Elements and turn what's left of their father to stone. Now they rule Equestria 'forever after'.

 

That's pretty good. That's a pretty typical fantasy novel plot.

Edited by Fhaolan

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I like this theory a lot better than others I've read. It seems not only plausible, but appropriate, and addresses the continuity concerns of Hearth's Warming Eve.

 

My only problem, if this turned out to be right, is disappointment. I would have expected Clover the Clever to be quite a bit sharper and more on top of things than Princess Celestia. happy.png

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I very much love your theory and it does present some interesting points from the perspective you have given. however i believe that some of it doesn't add up from what i know about the show. I'm not making an attempt to attack your theory I'm just going to be going over some of your material and explaining why I beleive the said material is incorrect. starting with the beginning. 

 

 

What if Celestia is, in fact, Clover the Clever?

although there isn't much known about this mysterious unicorn, it is known that she is the personal student to Star Swirl The Bearded and helped him to forge the Elements Of Harmony into gems that could be used as weapons. They crafted them from the Tree of Harmony which said tree is made known of in the fourth and fifth seasons. Celestia did learn from him but so did many others.

 

 

since the Canterlot Castle is ruled by Celestia, and also since we already know she's presumably a thousand years old, it seems very possible that Clover the Clever is in fact Celestia before her ascension to Alicornhood.

Celestia according to the show, is roughly over 1100 years old. something that is made mention about her is that unlike Cadence and Twilight who ascended to alicornhood, Celestia and Luna were Born Alicorns. i say this in part from my own research and a fan theory video that goes over a few topics about them. the video even goes as far as to bring in a conversation held between Lauren Faust and Meghan McCarthy about the origins of Cadence and how she was a Pegasus before her ascension. i will put a link at the end when im done, its got some great material and i suggest anyone to take a look. also in the hearths warming eve episode, it said that three individual kingdoms each ruled by the respective races of ponies existed before the founding of Equestria and the founding of it was because of a group effort from all three parties not Celestia. she and Luna just came in later and took over as the immortal rulers. you know, since they control and stabilize the orbit of the sun and moon so they revolve around their planet on a daily schedule. its kind of following that mantra that if someone who was immortal and possessed great powers were to reveal themselves to a primitive race they would be comparable to gods or goddesses in their case.

 

On top of that, there seems to be a certain significance to having Twilight play Clover in the story. I, like i'm sure many others have, once watched the Disney interpretation of King Arthur, called The Sword in the Stone. In this movie, Arthur is portrayed as a servant (similar to how Clover is portrayed to the ruler of the time, Princess Platinum), and Merlin as his mentor. Merlin trains and teaches him for a while before he proves himself by removing the legendary Excalibur from the stone, and is crowned king.

 

How is this similar to Clover the Clever?

 

Well, Clover was a servant to the Princess before Equestria's founding. When she, along with the three other members of the pony races met up with each other, she was successful in banishing the Windigoes using the magic of friendship. Not only that, but she also displayed a powerful ability in magic, very similar to Twilight's.

the reason twilight is playing Clover is because as clover was the adviser to princess platinum of the unicorn tribe, Twilight is the student and adviser to Princess Celestia. they both serve under their leaders. this is a time when Celestia wasn't even recognized as a leader yet probably because she wasn't fully grown at the time in her skills or physically. plus the reason why clover was so powerful was because she was personally trained by the unicorn who invented over 200 spells so that is a pretty powerful teacher.

 

 

 if for some strange reason Clover the Clever was not in fact Celestia, then how come this is the first we've ever heard of her, and she's never mentioned in the show again?

because its common that even with important figures, over time some information about them can be changed based on the regime of the countries leader or leaders at the time. remember the war that happened when Nightmare Moon took over Luna. history has shown that evil people will go and burn books or documents on a whim because they feel it goes against their reign as well as insights rebellion. Nightmare Moon was in the process of trying to over throw Celestia and her rule so there is a possibility that like the Nazi's, when she would invade and take over a territory or land belonging to Celestia's empire, that she would immediately burn any books pertaining to Celestia and her victories. so its possible that by doing that they could have removed most of the information pertaining to Clover The Clever in the process. there is truth the old saying, "history is written by the victors and any that is lost in the process is gone forever." 

 

 

One last thing to note, based on the way Celestia and Luna have spoken about Star Swirl, it almost seems like they knew him personally. But we know that he was in fact mentioned in Hearth's Warming Eve and they weren't. So the question is this, is there some giant lapse of continuity, or is it in fact true that Clover the Clever is actually Celestia?

i believe the reason why the sisters knew him personally but were not in the hearths warming eve episode is as follows. First, as i said earlier, the events of the Hearths Warming Eve Episode takes place before the sisters came to power. second, Star Swirl The Bearded Died lived a long time. he was never killed and they never made mention that he had fallen in battle so the only likely scenario is to assume he died of old age. now according to the show itself, Granny Smith is well over a hundred years old due to the fact that earth ponies have long lasting longevity. based on this we can accurately conclude that the unicorns could live just as long if not longer using magic. Magic is an all powerful force in their world after all that Star Swirl wielded very effectively. He most likely lived long enough to be in a position to train the sisters before he past away.

 

 

(and one more quick thing, it is worth noting that the sun and moon are specifically mentioned to be controlled by a group of unicorns, and NOT Celestia and Luna in this time. So that would mean that they hadn't always controlled the rotation of the sun and moon)

I agree, it does say that the rotations of the sun and moon were in fact controlled by the unicorns. that however was before Celestia stepped in and took over the job and later the title of princess of Equestria. the unicorns were being weakened by the spell and since its a children show they would leave out any concept of death. that does not mean that it doesn't happen even in a world full of talking technicolor ponies. no unicorn was ever meant to take on the job of raising the sun and moon alone and thats when they figured out a way around this. they formed a large group of spellcasters and combining their magics were able to perform the task as a normal function for a time mind you. real science also takes a unique role in their world as twilight is a scholar, a chemist, astronomer, and biologist. based on those results, its likely to assume that their solar system would follow similar physics as our own except with one regard. the orbits of the planet that they are on as well as their moon is out of whack because of weak gravitational pulls. so to compensate for the lack of proper orbit the unicorns used magic to make up for the differences and everything went on as normal. until one day when the unicorns could no longer perform the daunting task and the stress from doing that daily finally took its tole. unicorns started dying, and it just so happens that Celestia showed up and stopped them before taking on the task herself and thats how she got her Cutie Mark of the sun.                                                                                                                                                                                         at the end of it all, you have a pretty good theory here and i commend you on coming up with some pretty interesting questions. i hope that i may have been informative as well as helpful in answering your questions. thank you for taking your time to read this and may the magic of friendship be all our guides in our individual endeavors.                                                                                                                                                                                                                          

       

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