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Viewing Luna as the Great Goddess (a Wiccan's veiw on MLP)


drcline

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The more I watch this show and view the fan creations the more I am convinced that Princess Luna is a representation of the Great Goddess. Luna exists as Deity in her own right, being an immortal being with the power to raise the moon and stars. She possess the ability to use magic and uses this magic to enter other ponies' dreams. What Scootaloo did in "Look before you sleep" was essentially a magical technique called Pathworking with Luna as her Guide.The show itself features characters from mythology such as a minatour, cockatrice, and manicore. And don't even get me started on the fan animations. I specifically asked one of the co-creators of "Children of the Night" and, although might have been unintentional, the video is heavily laden with Wiccan themes and patterns. "we will forever be Her children of the night", "Nopony knows that we are still here, smiling beneath the moonlight while remembering our dear Mother", and the fact that Luna takes 6 perfect couples (plus herself would make 13, a witch's number) is too great to ignore.

 

Is there anyone else who feels this way too? Is there anyone on these boards who is Wiccan (Trad. or otherwise)? How do you feel about using a character to enhance your own understanding of the Divine?

 

Blessings,

Dave Cline

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i'm no wiccan but it makes certain sense on what you are saying, Celestia and luna and also some nonpony creatures were seen like some kind deitys and mythological creatures that exist 2000 years ago or more according the greek and roman mythology.

For example, Discord could be seen as the first god of greek mythology Chaos until was defeated by the god of heaven (or Uranus in roman mythology), Luna could be The Great Godess of what are you talking about, or the Both sister as Osiris and Isis (the Sun and Moon) or even the ying and yang

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I see what your getting at. There are a lot of mythology references in the show, and we sometimes view the characters as mythological beings. So, we could go with that theory.

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I tend to find Pagan themes in the world around me anyway and just assumed I was drawing a line between Luna and the Lady on my own. She is my favorite princess for a reason. And a big inspiration for my OC, obviously! I just really hope they showcase her more in season 4 and maybe explore the theme. The whole idea of Celestia raising the sun and Luna raising the moon goes back ages to the concpt of duality and balance in nature, he cycle of life, and turning of the wheel. Btw, I am not Wiccan but I am an eclectic Pagan that leans more toward a Celtic path. If you ever want to chat, let me know.

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You're looking too far into things. Coincidences will happen, and this seems like one of those things. Wicca has a pretty bad rep (which I won't go into details about, although I will say that in my personal opinion, I agree with), so I doubt that the show's creators would intentionally place Wiccan references in there. Lots of cultures worship and/or see the moon as a divine entity, so I'm certain that you're not the only person to think this, of course.

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I do not think I am looking to far into anything. As a member of the Priesthood we are taught to view the world (people, places, and things) in connection with occult elements. What first caught my intrest in the show was the use of mythological figures. Although the references to the Great Goddess may be unintentional, I do not feel that one can dismiss them as coincidences and leave it at that. I do suppose though that this mindset is a product of the mindset of interconnectness that is cultivated through Wicca. Does anypony know if there are other forums or groups for bronies who follow a Pagan path?

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I disagree, for one important reason, and that is because Celestia and Luna are supposed to be a dualistic pair. Sun and Moon, Day and Night, Light and Dark... equal yet different representations of the natural cycles that can be found all around us... unless you can have Celestia and Luna be two aspects of the Goddess?

 

Also you cannot use fanon works such as Children of the Night to give credence your claims of connection between the Goddess an Princess Luna.

Edited by EquestrianScholar
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  • 1 month later...

I am not Wiccan, but I am eclectic Pagan. I won't pretend I know a whole lot about Wicca, but I do know a bit. Focusing on the idea of Luna as The Lady makes sense, even when you stick to canon material. The only problem I've ever had with this idea is that the duality is not complete. You have Celestia as a goddess of the sun, but the duality is not fully balanced as there is no male aspect. The full relationship of The Lord and Lady may not be appropriate for small children (especially of various backgrounds), and having a the primary ruler be male wouldn't work in a show initially targeted at small girls, but it still feels incomplete. 

 

Back to your initial point of Luna being representative of The Goddess, the connection makes sense. Sadly most Pagan content in North America these days is accidental, bits of our paths that have been absorbed and had their initial meaning forgotten. How many people celebrate various modern holidays, but have never seen a wheel of the year, or even heard the word 'Sabbat' in their life. Is Luna representative of The Lady? I don't think so. Can she be interpreted as such? Without a doubt.

 

But I'm sure I don't need to go off on a tangent about the importance and power of words in a thread started by a Wiccan. Blessed Be.

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  • 1 month later...

I'm an eclectic Pagan, though there are some Wiccan influences in my path and beliefs, and I can certainly see what you're getting at. Both Princesses put me in mind of the Goddess in different ways, and of course the whole balance of having two deities, one who represents the sun and one who represents the moon has a very Pagan "feel" to it. I'm not saying it's intentional (personally I don't think it is intentionally Pagan), but the show does draw on a lot of world mythology so it makes sense to me that someone who had Pagan inclinations would be able to see parallels with their own beliefs.

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The show's creators were obviously drawing on the idea of a duality when they created the characters of Celestia and Luna. One can argue that they are representations of Yin and Yang because of the image from the beginning of the show where they are cycling day and night.

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The reason that I think the Luna-Great Lady parallel is drawn is that both rulers are identified largely by their respective heavenly body. Both Luna and The Goddess are represented by the moon. There is also the fact that Luna offers guidance through dreams. While this isn't regarded as The Goddess' modus operandi 100% of the time, the connection is not immediately obvious, but the Lady is regarded as a guiding force and an affectionate mother, creating a similarity in their  personalities.

 

Luna being banished to the moon can also been seen as a reference to Paganism in a more political sense. The rise of Christianity led to the death of countless Pagans (not to mention innocents), resulting in the burial of nature-centric religion and the concept of divine feminine. Luna's banishment could represent the suppression of Paganism and the idea of a Great Goddess, whereas Luna's return can be seen as a reflection of the modern day growth of Wicca, along with other Neo-Pagan and re-constructionist paths, or the return of The Lady. Whether or not this is an intentional statement  from the writers is a mystery, however there is a clear connection that can be drawn.

Edited by Frith is Magik
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Princess Celestia can also be seen as a guiding force, a teacher and mother figure, thus such a distinction is lessened. Honestly I could even offer that the ruler of the sun represents this more, as only one episode establishes Princess Luna guiding ponies in their time of need. I would also ask that it be considered that she is less of a mother figure, partly because she is still learning herself how to connect with her subjects.

 

I would also ask how her growing jealous and bitter, allowing a dark force to enter her and her transformation into Nightmare Moon, can be related to the fall and return of paganism and counter with a suggestion that one can actually draw christian parallels when it comes to the fall of the princess of the night and her banishment as Nightmare Moon.

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All in all I still feel it doesn't fit as it leaves out Princess Celestia and if we treat them as goddesses or deities we must consider them together. The Goddess is a single being, though she has been shown to have three aspects and there is her cohort/lover/son (some information I have says he is both her husband and her son. A seasonal cycle to his birth, maturity, death, and rebirth) the Horned God, and as such does not fit as well since Princess Luna does have a sister of at least equal power.

Edited by EquestrianScholar
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I have always viewed Celestia largely as a protector, and even though she is a teacher, I do not see her as the motherly guide. Both the Lord and Lady have lessons to teach, what separates them is that the Lord is more of a fatherly sort of teacher and a shield, whereas the Goddess is more motherly and a loving embrace. Celestia needs to be female in order to truly fit in with the shows intended theme and target audience, but despite a lack of masculinity, I think she fits the role well. 

 

Celestia has acted a motherly figure, but Luna was banished for 1000 years, leaving Celestia to fill the role. This also explains Luna's lack of familiarity and connection with her subjects The most simple argument is the symbols that are connected to them; Luna is represented by the moon and Celestia by the sun. This argument bears little weight, but it does demonstrate the possibility that Luna may be interpreted as The Goddess and Celestia as The Horned God. Because symbols mean what the person or group using them interprets them as meaning, it is perfectly reasonable to view the Princesses at the very least as symbols of the God and Goddess for those who use them as such.

 

If Luna represents The Great Lady, it is logical to assume that Celestia represents The Lord at her side (unless you're Dianic Wiccan). Granted, the two do not share the same relationship, and the birth-maturity-death cycle is absent, however, parallels can be drawn in characteristics. Celestia, despite being female, can be seen as filling the fatherly role. She teaches her children when needed, she is a protector. Celestia loves her subjects, but she is also cold enough to let them learn lessons the hard way. The whole idea of Trollestia was spawned from her tendency to allow the ponies to learn for themselves. Luna does not have the raw power of Celestia, but she offers more intimate guidance. She walks in the dreams of her subjects, and though there may be a rift caused by her time away from her children, she is still the motherly embrace. The two rule side by side, neither is better, they are equal and opposite. Celestia also has a bigger horn. That may sound petty, but we are talking about the Horned God, plus large horns could be considered phallic.

 

Celestia being female seems like a difficult point to get past. With topics like this, one needs to peel away the superficial elements that are there to make the show more appropriate for the target audience. I don't want to be accused of ignoring fact for the sake of convenience, but if you peel away the exterior of Luna and Celestia and look at their symbols and base characteristics, a parallel can be drawn.

 

 

 

one can actually draw christian parallels when it comes to the fall of the princess of the night and her banishment as Nightmare Moon.

You have piqued my interest. Would you be willing to elaborate on this point? 

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Hmm you make a good case and I guess I stand corrected. Because of how much focus seems to be placed on the Goddess I got the impression that her cohort the Horned God was not as important and secondary to the Goddess. Though honestly I feel the fact he has horns is a small detail and so Princess Celestia having a bigger horn then her sister doesn't need to be used as support of such.

On whether or not Princess Celestia can be considered motherly... well I always felt she care towards her subjects could be seen much as a mother cares for her children. Her letting her subjects make their own decisions and figure out answers to their problems being that of a ruler seeking her subjects to be self reliant.

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Well it was actually pointed out by a friend of mine when I was describing the situation of Princess Celestia banishing Nightmare Moon, and of Princess Luna's fall to darkness. Though I was actually using a comic/video to help perk his interest in the show called Light and Dark, which means he will likely be disappointed on how little the Season 1 pilot episode give on the subject.

 

The way christian parallel could be drawn is in comparing Princess Luna, her fall and transformation into Nightmare Moon... with Lucifer and his fall from grace, him being removed from his position of power because of his selfishness and pride. Lucifer became a threat, causing Micheal to need to fight and defeat this fallen servant of God. It can be said that through this Princess Celestia could be seen as God but I prefer the parallel being made between her and Micheal. This is farther supported by the fact Lauren Faust had said that Nightmare Moon would not only have brought eternal night but also ushered in an era of evil, thus all the more reason for Princess Celestia to have stepped forward.

 

Admittingly some things are also different, as Lucifer (whether or not one sees him as the Devil, as there is some debate on this) will not be forgiven for his actions and Princess Luna has been forgiven in addition to being allow back her position as co-ruler of Equestria..

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I never thought of that. I was focused on the banishment and return of the idea of a Goddess, and ended up neglecting specific parts of the christian mythos. The situation you described covers the point of corruption and banishment of a deity (if Lucifer can be considered such) better. I was looking at the progression of ideas and Paganism as a whole rather than connecting individuals.

 

My thought process was that the corruption and banishment of Luna was paralleled by the campaign against Paganism. The catholic church launched a propaganda campaign to demonize Pagans and their paths, resulting in them being viewed as evil. I admit that connecting slander and misunderstanding to corruption was truly grasping at straws. It stands to reason that if there are parallels with Wicca and Paganism in general, there would also be references to christianity,

 

I also watched the video you mentioned, and I must say that I enjoyed it. It covers both the ideas of misunderstanding and corruption nicely. Sadly, nothing similar would ever become canon, but I do hope the writers are able to insert a hint of those concepts when they delve deeper into Luna's character. The fact that the show's target audience is a younger, female demographic makes it harder to approach such an idea, but that is starting towards a different discussion.

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Interestingly, unlike many/most Christains I don't see Wiccans as 'witches' in the sense used to try and make them worshipers of Satan.

 

I believe Satan is very real but Wicca is no more corrupt the lets say Buddhism, and I understand it is a nature based religion. I actually find much worthy of interest, admittingly I also find most religions worth looking into and study so that isn't such a big thing.

 

Honestly though I feel it was less of a campaign against paganism, at least at first, as early Christianity purposely worked to draw parallels between the many pagan religions and Christianity so its a better draw in converts. So in that case they have no one to blame but themselves when it comes to pagan ideas working their way in.

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What makes having a Christian parallel work even more, at least for me, is Lucifer could actually be considered the brother of Michael. Upon Lucifer's fall, whose name means Lightbringer, and having his name become Satan he could be said to take on a corrupt form before being banished.

 

Of course this is expanded lore, the Bible actually only going briefly over Lucifer's fall from grace which is part of the reason some argue against him being Satan.

Edited by EquestrianScholar
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As you mentioned, Lucifer means "light-bringer", which introduces a challenge to the parallel. Granted, Lucifer is a light bringer in the figurative sense, but all the same Luna is the Princess of the night, a bringer of darkness. There is also the problem that he was banished for pride, for trying to rise above his station, whereas Luna was corrupted out of jealousy and feelings of neglect.The tale of Lucifer's fall does serve as a parallel for the banishment of Luna, however, I do not see a direct connection of character. It is entirely possible that the writers used one source for her character and a different source for the story. Another option is that they may have drawn character and story from a third source. Nothing comes to mind immediately, but the writers did draw from multiple sources from around the world. I think I am returning to my earlier problem of focusing one or two specific points (Neo-Paganism and christianity).

 

If anyone reading this can think of a parallel that isn't drawn from the discussed sources, please post something and let us know.

Edited by Frith is Magik
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Actually not true, Luna raises the moon and arguably places the stars into the sky... which brings light into the darkness of night. Admittingly the light of the moon is a reflection of the light of the sun but still... Luna is a bringer of light, just a softer light that one can actually look at. That and mattering the interpretation lightbringer could also be interpreted as a bringer of knowledge as well.

 

Also, Luna did try to rise above her station. She held responsibility for the night but was jealous of the fact ponies honored and respected her sister who was charged with responsibility for the day, she was angry that ponies slept during her beautiful night and wish for ponies to see all that which she worked to create... this can be related to pride.

 

Now yes Princess Luna and Lucifer are not the same but they do relate in some ways. I mean consider Aslan from the Chronicles of Naria, he was meant to be an analogy to Jesus Christ yet they are not exactly the same.

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Yes I am also interested in seeing if others can come up with more possible parallels.

Edited by EquestrianScholar
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  • 2 weeks later...

@@drcline

Yeah, I'm a recently converted wiccan and I've seen the similarities you've spoken of. And I think a similar concept for celestia being like the horned god. I know she's nothing like him, but her representation for the sun and her respect for life and equality kinda made me think of this.

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  • 2 years later...

Luna is the godess of the night, and Celestia is the godess of the day. I am new to wicca but i love MLP. And Twilight is here selected dear student ^^

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The fact that night and day are a continual cycle with one forever following the other is probably the first scientific observation that was ever made by man, consequently, people have been worshipping various aspects of the sun and moon for as long as there has been people to do so.  The deification of the sun and moon long predate any religion or modern revisions thereof.

 

One thing I have seen a lot in this fandom is that people will always find what they want to see in the cartoon, which is part of the beauty of it, but anything that you choose to interpret as being one thing, another person will inevitably interpret as something else, and the chances are that the writer's intent was neither.

 

There may be similarities, but it's simply far too basic a concept to draw any inference from.

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I made a post about MLP on the witchcraft themed facebook group I admin for. Though it had been about Celestia rather then Luna.  :sunbutt: I'm a Eclectic wiccan. 

I guess what you're saying makes sense. Though I highly doubt it was done on purpose.

 

 

 

Some believe that all gods and goddesses are all representations of the same god and goddess. That gods from all over the world, Bast, Zeus, Thor, and Pele, these are just different interpretations of the same two. That the great deity of the celestial bodies, father sun and mother moon are constantly living through human art.
If this is the case, then they can live through other media, some that aren't thousands of years old. Like the gods and goddesses of elder scrolls.
Or my personal favorite goddess of fiction, Princess Celestia from MLP:fim. This kind and loving matriarchal goddess has been ruling the country of Equestria for over a thousand years in the form of an alicorn. Celestia, whose sister Luna fell to darkness and tried to over throw her and cast the world unto eternal darkness. Celestia banished her to the moon with the elements of harmony. Proving she would do anything for her people
Luna, goddess of the moon and Celestia, head ruler and goddess of the sun. Both of them are said to guide the celestial bodies across the sky each day, (They do within the show).
So regardless of anyones thoughts on pop culture pagans, I will keep saying Omc (Oh my Celestia) instead of Omg.
Because Celestia is like the best thing since anything.
Plus, pretty much everything exists within the astral plane and the dreaming, so why you judging pop culture pagans? huh? huh?
May the warmth of Celestia's sun guide you always.
Mutha trucker.

This is the post btw. 

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  • 1 year later...

I am Wiccan. I think that if you can see even the slightest conection in an object or idea, that can be seen and/or used as your diety interpretation. If you have a doll of Luna you could use it as a goddess statue if you feel so strongly about it. In my opinion, Wicca has no rules, just do what feels right. "Let them do what they will, for they do not understand."

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