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Is this Debate Pit useful?


The Soldier

  

39 users have voted

  1. 1. Is the Debate Pit useful?

    • Yes
      22
    • No
      17


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Debate Pit is very useful, it's a very effective containment subforum to keep the silly arguments from ever spoiling the rest of the Everfree Forest :o

Kind of like the /mlp/ now that you guys mentioned it

 

Personally I don't really care with the quality of the debates, as long as I don't have to acknowledge them ever existing in any way.

 

 

 

Reason for yes: It builds up your post count.

 

I like the way you think! :D

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If the Debate Pit is to serve as a type of containment for users/topics, then I think it has some short comings.

 

First and foremost, I can't access the Debate Pit due to my low post count. From my perspective, the Debate Pit seems more like an added perk to contributing users rather than a safeguard or containment unit. Personally speaking, I'm primarily a lurker and join on sites when I see something that upsets me or motivates me to respond back. I would like to think that newer users should be the ones where containment is geared towards rather than veteran users who are accustomed to the site and therefore less prone to starting fights where they should not occurr.

 

Second, if the Debate Pit were to function as an actual containment sub-forum it would be largely ineffective. This is mostly because when a debate begins in a given thread, it is often not involving the majority of the people who have contributed to the thread but rather involving two individuals going back and forth over a point of contention. Moving the entire thread to the Debate Pit because of two individuals would compromise the fact that the rest of the thread primarily is not a debate and was not supposed to be in the first place. The more effective action would be to contain the two or more users who agree to disagree, therefore allowing the regular thread to proceed as normal.

 

In consideration of this, I feel like people who are mature enough to disagree with one another yet have the patience to listen to each other would consider visitor messages or private messages. Making a separate thread in the Debate Pit seems excessive. Unruly arguments are prone to moderators using infraction, probation, and lock-down measures to keep the thread under control rather than jettisoning it off to Deep Space.

 

I understand how the Debate Pit can function as a psychological deterrent. If you give someone an arena where they can voice their argumentative side, then that user feels less repressed and less likely to unleash that side in other places. However, a big part of using the Debate Pit in this capacity primarily relies on the user themselves to have the maturity to recognize that their own content will be a conflict. After realizing this, they also must consider how their post will affect everyone else and should make a decision of the whole rather than themselves. If a user is mature enough to suppress their own urges to this extent, then they should have sufficient will power to reconstruct their post into an effective pro-discussion post rather than an illogical fallacy or derail to the opening thread.

 

I think that when we consider the Debate Pit to be a containment field, we have admitted that the sub-forum is in a sense flawed. It is not something effective in its own right to spawn ideas and mesh out thoughts, but rather a detractor from the rest of the forums. Resorting a sub-forum as a means to an end intereferes with its utility to be seen as useful in itself. Someone raised the point that debate itself can be an effective process of meshing or solidying ones own thought process. However, I don't believe that if the popular sentiment is that the Debate Pit is a sort of containment unit that people will still retain such an interest. Rather, they would want to post in the thread to a relevant audience that has made relevant posts on the topic. No one wants to be contained, ostracized, or isolated. They just want to be heard.

 

I don't identify with sub-fourms like the Debate Pit because I personally don't understand debating itself as a motivator. I personally find it more interesting to understand other people, how they work, and why they do the strange things that they do or get into the jams they find themselves in. The two aren't mutually exclusive when it comes to conversation, however as an underlying motivator I haven't reached a point where I post anything with the belief that I'm right and in the know. If I believed that then I probably wouldn't be curious about getting feedback from anonymous individuals all over about what they think.

 

If this isn't representative of what the Debate Pit is then I apologize. I understand that I'm arguing against a personal conception rather than an actual piece of work because I don't have access to it. However my intention was not to attack a straw man. Rather question the underlying purpose of what areas like the Debate Pit really serve and whether this function is unique enough to merit it being kept to itself.

Edited by Lincesa
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All I've seen the Debate Pit do is create problems.

 

It's gotten pretty extreme as of late, too, from what I've seen; some people have some crazy, pretty far in left field views, and others think they're too crazy and far out.

 

Which, in most cases, they are, but back on-topic:

 

As of late, it's gotten pretty bad with some of the users and the way they handle it. I mean, out of all the days I've spent on the internet, I've never seen an internet argument get as out of hand as that whole "Should AJ die?" Topic; at least, one not involving a troll.

 

Then, the other day, I posted a negative opinion on Rainbow Dash (It wasn't even that bad; just wondering why Rarity got called out on her flaws when RD didn't) and ever since then, my inbox has been getting spammed with this stuff:

 

full.pngfull.png
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A shoutout to the RD fans kind enough to take the time to send me this stuff.

 

Anyway, all the debate pit does is cause problems for people; nothing more, nothing less.

 

I think we should get rid of it all together.

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I think we should get rid of it all together.

The examples you gave all happened outside of the debate pit so how would getting rid of the debate pit have prevented those situations? It is true that the debate pit contains some contentious topics but as the examples you gave prove a topic dosen't need to be about things like religion or politics to start a flame war. If I had to single out one topic for being the most contentious on here it is Derpy and for a while alicorn twilight and to a lesser extent Equestria Girls caused a few flame wars but banning those outright wouldn't make a lot of sense. But I can of course see why they can be more likely to cause a flame war than most topics thus the need for said containment.

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The examples you gave all happened outside of the debate pit so how would getting rid of the debate pit have prevented those situations? It is true that the debate pit contains some contentious topics but as the examples you gave prove a topic dosen't need to be about things like religion or politics to start a flame war. If I had to single out one topic for being the most contentious on here it is Derpy and for a while alicorn twilight and to a lesser extent Equestria Girls caused a few flame wars but banning those outright wouldn't make a lot of sense. But I can of course see why they can be more likely to cause a flame war than most topics thus the need for said containment.

You used a ton of run on sentences, dude. Whoa.

 

Anyway, dude, this stuff will mostly spawn from the debate pit anyway, since that's where most of the fighting happens on this site.

 

I mean, I'm just starting to get irritated with the crap I'm getting in my inbox because people didn't like my opinion. It's pretty bad, dude.

 

Unless you're gonna start spamming my inbox, too dry.png

 

The chances of that happening IN the Debate Pit are much greater than it happening OUT of the Debate Pit. I still say it should be banned, or VERY strictly moderated, at the least.

 

Do you think it feels good to get this crap all the time? No, it doesn't.

 

And the Debate Pit is where most of this crap starts.

I don't want to argue on here, dude. It's caused too much trouble for me. I won't fight anymore.

 

I am a White 16-year old Texan Gandhi nowderpy_emoticon2.png

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Unless you're gonna start spamming my inbox, too dry.png

Nope, unlike those people I have enough self respect to not waste my time with stuff like that. If you are trying to say that people that can't handle themselves with dignity and class on pony related topics can't handle themselves on political topics than you are indeed correct. I am just saying that your argument isn't exactly the best one because the examples you gave didn't even happen in the debate pit. I didn't mean it as any kind of personal attack at all, which brings up another point is that people take a lot of things far more personally than they should. The whole spamming inbox thing is rather blatant flaming and trolling and should be reported, but there are some people that take even the slightest disagreement as a personal attack. 

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Nope, unlike those people I have enough self respect to not waste my time with stuff like that. If you are trying to say that people that can't handle themselves with dignity and class on pony related topics can't handle themselves on political topics than you are indeed correct. I am just saying that your argument isn't exactly the best one because the examples you gave didn't even happen in the debate pit. I didn't mean it as any kind of personal attack at all, which brings up another point is that people take a lot of things far more personally than they should. The whole spamming inbox thing is rather blatant flaming and trolling and should be reported, but there are some people that take even the slightest disagreement as a personal attack. 

Well, good :D I don't want to fight with people on here. I like it on here too much to want to fight :D

 

Anyways, dude, I don't think you're reading my words the right way. I'm not saying this because I'm offended by the hell I'm catching from them ( I am, don't get me wrong), I'm saying that the Debate Pit spawns most of the fighting on here. Not all of it, most of it. If we cut it off all together, or at least strictly moderate it, the Forums as a whole would get along much better.

 

It'd basically prevent a lot of people from having to deal with the crap I'm going through right now, in DP or no DP. Not everyone would be safe, but it'd save a lot of people from having to be nervous when dealing with an entire fanbase. I'm scared to talk to RD fans because of this. I really am.

 

So of course I'm taking a lot of things personal on here right now, especially when it comes to this subject, because a lot of the things I've been getting has meant to be personal.

 

Do you see what I'm saying now, dude? :D

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More like "Shit-storm threads" LOL fights and debates every corner.

This is exactly what I think of it too. One example is the "Opinion on Abortions" thread. That's kind of heated over there. :V
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You guys do realize that debates can happen without a flame war occurring, right? I'd like to think that this is both the fault of members and staff alike not doing what the board's intentions seem to be. Members here are way too sensitive and the staff appears to let it happen. I mean, sure, some of the topics get locked when things get really out of hand, but I've seen a whole lot of junk posts in debates like the Abortion topic or the Feminism topic that's a waste of space, and are usually the catalysts that fuel the wars in the first place.

 

The other side is that if the Debate Pit is truly "the scholars place to have mature conversation", then why are half the posts I see on there filled with sloppy grammar, meme pics, one run-on sentence, or quoting someone and then just adding a sentence further like "I agree fully to what you are saying, kudos."? I think a rule needs to be established that the posts in the Debate Pit need to have correct spelling, grammar, and punctuation, have a decent length (just a short paragraph even), and isn't simply a meme pic proclaiming "FAITH IN HUMANITY RESTORED" with that stupid image of the guy raising his fist. It's more or less the reason I don't really post here anymore because the Debate Pit was kind of my main board after I pretty much expressed everything I could about the MLP episodes I've watched.

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The debate pit is this communities way of separating the very intensive debates from the more softhearted conversation found in the General discussion section. It seems to have worked in some ways from my own observations, although a few debates can get out of hand. As it stands, I agree with having the Debate Pit there...

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  • 3 weeks later...

I noticed some cursing being thrown back and forth in the Abortion thread and it bothered me because that's not how the debate should properly operate, which is why, as a member of the community, I propose a small suggestion to everybody that could help keep tempers down: 

If you feel yourself getting flustered, take a break. Step away from the debate in order to gain a level head. Don’t force yourself to continue while angry or frustrated and risk saying or doing something you’ll regret. Do what you need to cool down. Get a drink of water, grab a snack. Then come back with a clear mind ready to continue the debate in civil manner.

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The debate pit is just like general discussion. The only difference is people think that they are allowed to bend the rules a bit and yell at other member who don't share their same views.

 

Honestly, the only good that comes out of the debate pit is it keeps a good chunk of the stubborn and annoying argumentative posts isolated to a place where I don't have to look at them.

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The debate pit is just like general discussion. The only difference is people think that they are allowed to bend the rules a bit and yell at other member who don't share their same views.

 

Honestly, the only good that comes out of the debate pit is it keeps a good chunk of the stubborn and annoying argumentative posts isolated to a place where I don't have to look at them.

Well, that is the entire point of having it. And if people think the rules are suspended in there, they are wrong. Admittedly, it is hard to find the motivation to go in there to clean up...

Edited by SolarFox
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I think the Debate Pit's absolutely pointless in one sense. (Now, now! Don't quote my post and start refuting me just yet. There's going to be more to this.) That sense is: people don't actually know how to utilize it properly. It's a sad thing that happens on the internet often, and without very strict moderation, the so-called "debates" aren't really debates. They're just people screaming at one another "I'M RIGHT YOU'RE WRONG" rather than trying to actually refute each other's points in an intelligent or "scholarly" fashion. 

 

Now, it has a point in the way everyone else has said: "Let's dump all those controversial hot button threads that some people don't wanna deal with into this pit and then just let them fester there!" That's the impression I seem to be getting from most. There's obviously some disdain for the section. And this disdain is really quite sad. Although I'm not a debater myself (and don't really care for the thing), I think this attitude could be part of the reason why the section is... well, the way it is. People misinterpret what a debate is ACTUALLY supposed to be. It isn't supposed to be pointless arguing and finger-pointing, but a civil discourse. If people were more aware of this, then the section would be a lot more cleaner and friendlier to deal with. Sadly, I doubt this is ever going to occur, as I'm sure the mods don't care to devote resources to it in the first place based on the tone of their responses here.

 

So although I think the section should be removed due to it appearing to be nothing more than a pointless finger-pointing quest, I know it cannot be as there's no other place to put those posts without putting a ban on debates, which would be way too harsh. I just think it could do with some improvement to make it less of a necessary evil as people seem to think it is, and more of a legitimate section.

Edited by Arylett Dawnsborough
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 I just think it could do with some improvement to make it less of a necessary evil as people seem to think it is, and more of a legitimate section.

I can of course understand the containment logic but it does seem like treating it like the bastard stepson of general discussion may be giving the wrong impression that a debate is supposed to be a glorified pissing match. The bottom line is a lot of people there have a serious listening problem which I know is the case for people on many other sites as well but still. I feel like people are talking at me but not really talking to me and I know from my conversation in the Libertarian Circle PM group that I am not the only one that feels this way and there are likely people of other political persuasions that feel the same way. I am not claiming I haven't made any mistakes on this but I am at least trying to hear people out, there is no rule against just shitting on peoples posts without even really addressing them but it does foster a very hostile environment which does lead to misunderstandings and flame wars.

 

One thing I don't understand though is the way people talk about these topics like they are the only ones that could possibly cause flame wars on here when many of the most intense flame wars on here were controversial topics about the show like twilicorn and Derpy. Yes these topics are more likely to start flame wars than most but if people treat it like an absolute certainty than it just becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. While it is up to moderation to enforce the rules it is also up to us to do what we can to try to just stop talking at people and start talking to them, wait until we are calm to respond to certain posts, know when to cut things off and report abusive posts.

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The "debates" would be a lot more productive if every single post included some kind of question to help the writer understand/analyze an opposing viewpoint.  A wall of assertions is not particularly useful (especially when it's based entirely on opinion).

 

@ mentioned the difficulty in finding motivation to moderate it to the same extent that the rest of the forum is moderated.  So now I'm curious...is there a dedicated staff member (or staff members) specifically responsible for that part of the forum? Or is it just a blanket responsibility that all moderators share?

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SolarFox mentioned the difficulty in finding motivation to moderate it to the same extent that the rest of the forum is moderated. So now I'm curious...is there a dedicated staff member (or staff members) specifically responsible for that part of the forum? Or is it just a blanket responsibility that all moderators share?

 

A mixture of both. Informally, Chigens and Kay, LowfatEnvelope, Evilshy and Aquila are responsible for that section along with everything else that happens in Beyond Equestria. However since every mod here is global, and able to read and respond to reports everywhere, dealing with that section often falls to whoever is online, and motivated and proactive enough to wade through it. SolarFox is one of the more active mods here, and I know that he'd often chip in and deal with reports from the Debate Pit even though he's mainly active in and responsible for the MLP boards.

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Um, well instead of banishing things to the debate pit, can't you just lock them so that people will realise when a topic has gone sour or when a topic is silly in the first place or they'll learn how to create a clear-cut OP. Keep in mind that we are getting a lot of new members so they are learning how2forums. I don't think it's suitable for the current situation with a tonne of low quality-high quantity posters.

 

Otherwise, hell-yeah, it's the best bin ever.

Edited by Fubz
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Um, well instead of banishing things to the debate pit, can't you just lock them so that people will realise when a topic has gone sour or when a topic is silly in the first place or they'll learn how to create a clear-cut OP. Keep in mind that we are getting a lot of new members so they are learning how2forums. I don't think it's suitable for the current situation with a tonne of low quality-high quantity posters.

 

Otherwise, hell-yeah, it's the best bin ever.

 

Doesn't the Debate Pit already require a certain number of posts before members can participate?  If so, that should effectively prevent the problem you described above.  If not, then that's probably something that could be put into place so that participants at least have a rudimentary grasp of the community before wading in.

 

In any case, locking a thread for the actions of one or two members only causes resentment among the participants who were following the rules and engaging in a productive conversation.

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Doesn't the Debate Pit already require a certain number of posts before members can participate?  If so, that should effectively prevent the problem you described above.  If not, then that's probably something that could be put into place so that participants at least have a rudimentary grasp of the community before wading in.

Hahah, true! In theory it should work, but in this current situation there's quite a few people with around 1000 posts who still can't post properly.

 

 

 

In any case, locking a thread for the actions of one or two members only causes resentment among the participants who were following the rules and engaging in a productive conversation.

Again I agree with you but many topics there are just full of posts with the exact same argument and points so once it's answered that should be the end of it and this is generally because of the OP who either

1) Makes an unclear OP

2) Creates a single argument thread which can't be discussed, only answered as only 1 individual would ever take the OP's side, which is the OP. So the full thread is just everyone trying to convince the OP otherwise, but then some people just read the OP and are convinced and don't read on and pretty much re-state OP's opinion in the same way but nicer, because people don't read topics blahhh

 

Actually in the case of no 2 it's probably more accurate to say that nobody listens to each other and it turns into a debate pit thread rather than all of that what I said there.

Edited by Fubz
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Again I agree with you but many topics there are just full of posts with the exact same argument and points so once it's answered that should be the end of it...

 

Some of the long-running debate threads follow a pattern: members discuss a few points, and then lose interest, acquiesce, run out of counter-arguments, or otherwise stop participating.  As this is happening, brand new participants enter the conversation, often retreading the same territory in a slightly different way.

 

This does not mean that the thread is uselessly chasing its own tail.  Instead, it means that new people get to participate as they find it, without having to start the thread over.  They can read it from the start if they want, or they can jump in and begin discussing it with whoever else cares to participate.

 

Bottom line: the reason debate threads go on for so long is because new people are continuously discovering, experiencing and then leaving the debate.  Tampering with that life cycle is counter-productive.

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