why do people act like mary sue would be the worst thing to happen to the show?

[Noodles 109]

It would be my problem if I was alone, who shares this view on what Mary Sue is. But since in this thred alone several people apperaed to have similar view on the matter - the problem is rather yours, no offence. I haven't extract my definition from my nose, you know

some folks have similar views on the mater? is that the best you can come up with?

I have reread the entire tread most people ad dull and flat to the definition of Mary Sue. that is not the same as agreeing with your unstated version of Mary Sue. and if you add Dull and Flat the bag guys can still fall under the title Mary Sue.

[Declen 118]

 

 

some folks have similar views on the mater? is that the best you can come up with?

Yes. I think that's enough.

 

 

if you add Dull and Flat the bag guys can still fall under the title Mary Sue.

Nope.

Because nobody really expects from bad guys to be complex many-sided personalities. If the are - even better. But if not - it's OK, too.

[Noodles 109]

You pick and choose what I say to try to win your side I quote you Completely you missed the bit where there is no evidence that most people agree with your definition. and you still refuse to put into words what your definition of Mary Sue is.

so trying to debate with you is just like trying to sword fight a fart.

[Declen 118]

SHINING ARMOUR IS STILL A UNICORN!

SO WHAT!

They both used his love, not his magic. So, it says nothing about his magical abilities.

I don't even know why do I tell you this.

 

defeat Celestia, the Alicorn that controls THE SUN.

1) To control THE SUN can be uneasy task on itsef and cost some strengh. Have you ever considered this?

2) Actually, M-me Cheeseholelegs was quite surprised, when she had defeated Her Highness.

 

 

you still refuse to put into words what your definition of Mary Sue is.

Seriously?

 

 

so trying to debate with you is just like trying to sword fight a fart.

So find yourself more honorable sparring-partner, what is the problem?

Edited November 29, 2013 by Declen

[Anneal 2,194]

People are missing something big: Too much flaws can also make an OC just as terrible as a Mary Sue. I like to call it "Anti-Sue".

 

Look, taking out the "perfect" traits still doesn't ensure that your OC is a Mary Sue. Basically, if the plot still facilitates him or her, or he or she is still the center of attention, it's still a Mary Sue. An example of an Anti-Sue:

 

Blind pegasus filly with ADHD that has problems doing actions. She's illiterate and physically abused in the orphanage. It didn't matter anyway, because she was abused by her parents before they died.

 

This isn't going to make anyone sympathize her, it just makes her look pathetic and unrealistic. Most of all, mental illness is not a loophole for flaw-making. If you don't do it well, it's going to be VERY offensive. 

 

But, if the blind pegasus filly at least attempted to create some kind of language, educate herself in some way, or didn't try to make her blindness to much of a burden, it can become a decent OC.

 

That is also why you have to play tragedy and sadness carefully. It's the difference between Anti-Sue and the reader sympathizing the OC.

[FNGRpony 655]

Yes. I think that's enough.

 

 

Nope.

Because nobody really expects from bad guys to be complex many-sided personalities. If the are - even better. But if not - it's OK, too.

 

You have me on ignore last i checked,

who are you to say what's enough?

 

you want a one sided conversation quite trying to pretend like your the objective one

 

oh an flutter shi ^^.

Actually that was the whole threads main point. it's why you see a picture of chris thorn dyke in the very first post.

 

I asserted having a character that can't handle anything is far more tedious and uninteresting than one who can handle everything,

cause their are all powerful characters people like,

"Brock Sampson." and for that show he totally is.  IN a show surrounded by failure he's as mary sue as you can get on that show.

 

as apposed to a complete loser that's likeable.

 

I can give examples and the best people can say "Oh that doesn't count because."

 

but no one can give an example of a chris thorn dyke or "Anti" mary sue being a fun character.

 

Not even a bad example.

 

 

People are missing something big: Too much flaws can also make an OC just as terrible as a Mary Sue. I like to call it "Anti-Sue".

 

Look, taking out the "perfect" traits still doesn't ensure that your OC is a Mary Sue. Basically, if the plot still facilitates him or her, or he or she is still the center of attention, it's still a Mary Sue. An example of an Anti-Sue:

 

Blind pegasus filly with ADHD that has problems doing actions. She's illiterate and physically abused in the orphanage. It didn't matter anyway, because she was abused by her parents before they died.

 

This isn't going to make anyone sympathize her, it just makes her look pathetic and unrealistic. Most of all, mental illness is not a loophole for flaw-making. If you don't do it well, it's going to be VERY offensive. 

 

But, if the blind pegasus filly at least attempted to create some kind of language, educate herself in some way, or didn't try to make her blindness to much of a burden, it can become a decent OC.

 

That is also why you have to play tragedy and sadness carefully. It's the difference between Anti-Sue and the reader sympathizing the OC.

Edited November 29, 2013 by FNGRpony

[FoxyCryptid 4,327]

Chris kinda would be a Mary Sue(or Marty Stu if you like that phrase) because he's a new character to the Sonic franchise, who essentially steals the spotlight and plays an important part in even the arcs based on the games for no reason and it magically friends with all the heroes.

 

I don't really care, I don't find him annoying at all, but that's the basic argument.  

People are missing something big: Too much flaws can also make an OC just as terrible as a Mary Sue. I like to call it "Anti-Sue".

 

Look, taking out the "perfect" traits still doesn't ensure that your OC is a Mary Sue. Basically, if the plot still facilitates him or her, or he or she is still the center of attention, it's still a Mary Sue. An example of an Anti-Sue:

 

Blind pegasus filly with ADHD that has problems doing actions. She's illiterate and physically abused in the orphanage. It didn't matter anyway, because she was abused by her parents before they died.

 

This isn't going to make anyone sympathize her, it just makes her look pathetic and unrealistic. Most of all, mental illness is not a loophole for flaw-making. If you don't do it well, it's going to be VERY offensive. 

 

But, if the blind pegasus filly at least attempted to create some kind of language, educate herself in some way, or didn't try to make her blindness to much of a burden, it can become a decent OC.

 

That is also why you have to play tragedy and sadness carefully. It's the difference between Anti-Sue and the reader sympathizing the OC.

 

For God's sake, go find the book "Shattering Glass" by Gale GIles for a good example of an anti-sue in original content. It could much be entitled: How Not To Write A Story: The Book.  

Edited November 29, 2013 by Shoboni

[FNGRpony 655]

Chris kinda would be a Mary Sue(or Marty Stu if you like that phrase) because he's a new character to the Sonic franchise, who essentially steals the spotlight and plays an important part in even the arcs based on the games for no reason and it magically friends with all the heroes.

 

I don't really care, I don't find him annoying at all, but that's the basic argument.  

 

For God's sake, go find the book "Shattering Glass" by Gale GIles for a good example of an anti-sue in original content. It could much be entitled: How Not To Write A Story: The Book.  

 

I'm going to say something constructively critical and you can choose to be flattered.

The idea you called chris a mary sue comes from being a broney and you highly value friend ship.

 

So much so you consider it OP.  (I recommend you be flattered or not, I don't insist).

the spot light itself is not power.

 

Charlie brown being the star doesn't make him powerful (thought I might consider him potentially the only likeable anti mary sue, which is why I didn't bring him up.

[FoxyCryptid 4,327]

I'm going to say something constructively critical and you can choose to be flattered.

The idea you called chris a mary sue comes from being a broney and you highly value friend ship.

 

So much so you consider it OP.  (I recommend you be flattered or not, I don't insist).

the spot light itself is not power.

 

Charlie brown being the star doesn't make him powerful (thought I might consider him potentially the only likeable anti mary sue, which is why I didn't bring him up.

 

A Mary Sue doesn't necessarily have to be over-powered, just being perfect and being the center of attention all the times when it makes no sense can be the same

[FNGRpony 655]

A Mary Sue doesn't necessarily have to be over-powered, just being perfect and being the center of attention all the times when it makes no sense can be the same

 

Hum, I've gotten so many different definitions on the term but that ones interesting.

 

Indulging in it would mean i'd have to go back and give things a new look through your lenses.

or at least look at new things in that way.

 

I might do that.

  Yeah i think will.

I'm not sure if agree but your concept interests me in the subject that i'll be trying to approach the topic from your angle.

[SBaby 660]

2) Actually, M-me Cheeseholelegs was quite surprised, when she had defeated Her Highness.

Again, you make the case for me. You consider Chrysalis to be an Alicorn. She was surprised that she defeated Celestia.

 

If Alicorns are more powerful than Unicorns, then Shining Armour wouldn't have been needed to defeat her in the first place. Not to mention Chrysalis wouldn't have been so shocked that she defeated the Princess of the Sun (unless of course, what you said about her being an Alicorn is inaccurate).

1) To control THE SUN can be uneasy task on itsef and cost some strengh. Have you ever considered this?

Celestia does it pretty much effortlessly, as shown in previous episodes. If it was that difficult for her, I doubt she'd be able to handle both the Sun AND Moon at the same time for a thousand years.

They both used his love, not his magic. So, it says nothing about his magical abilities. I don't even know why do I tell you this.

 

And yet, Cadence still needed him to defeat Chrysalis. This should tell anyone that Alicorns aren't as omnipotent as people make them out to be.

Edited November 30, 2013 by SBaby

[FoxyCryptid 4,327]

Hum, I've gotten so many different definitions on the term but that ones interesting.

 

Indulging in it would mean i'd have to go back and give things a new look through your lenses.

or at least look at new things in that way.

 

I might do that.

  Yeah i think will.

I'm not sure if agree but your concept interests me in the subject that i'll be trying to approach the topic from your angle.

 

The main issue is that there's no concrete definition of Mary-Sue and what constitutes one, how far a character has to go down that road to be one, and whether it's a real concept or just a name people call characters they find annoying is a topic of debate.

[Declen 118]

 

 

Again, you make the case for me.

Wishful thinking.

 

 

If Alicorns are more powerful than Unicorns, then Shining Armour wouldn't have been needed

One has nothing to do with the other.

 

Celestia does it pretty much effortlessly, as shown in previous episodes.

And you know it how? "Try walking in my shoes".

 

And yet, Cadence still needed him to defeat Chrysalis

They used love, not magic.

[Noodles 109]

 

 

They used love, not magic.

Candace's magic is love. why do you think her horn produces them hearts. and if you notice the two ponies entered the "god" mode so it was clearly a mixing of magic types that saved the day.

and that fits perfectly with the series message you can do far more working together than you can alone.

 

I wonder if changlings suck out the love or just feed on its good vibes.

[Cwanky 17,445]

First off, Discord is not a main character, which is who the term "Mary Sue" is most commonly applied to. Even if we were talking about a "Marty Stu" the male equivalent, it wouldn't apply for the same reasons. But let's have TV tropes further flesh out the definition:

 

The prototypical Mary Sue is an original female character in a fanfic who obviously serves as an idealized version of the author mainly for the purpose of Wish Fulfillment. She's exotically beautiful, often having an unusual hair or eye color, and has a similarly cool and exotic name. She's exceptionally talented in an implausibly wide variety of areas, and may possess skills that are rare or nonexistent in the canon setting. She also lacks any realistic, or at least story-relevant, character flaws — either that or her "flaws" are obviously meant to be endearing.

 

This is why people disliked Twilacorn so much and I am very glad that Twilight thus far has not turn out that way. Mary Sues are bad writing plain and simple. A character that is so idealized and perfect has no room for character development, growth and the chance to actually face an actual challenge. It becomes predictable because the viewers and readers will know what to expect, hence no excitement. In some ways it may be for the best that Lauren Faust left, otherwise there could be a lot of subconscious Mary Sue development of Twilight. 

 

I like her as a writer and was sad to see her leave the cast, but there's always a silver lining and in this case I think the show benefits as much as it hurts from her departure. If MLP:FiM was just primarily about Twilight, it might be okay to get away with having her be a Mary Sue. But no the show is about the Mane 6, not just Twilight Sparkle. The show after all is called My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic NOT My Little Pony: Twilight is Magic. A lot of episodes don't even have Twilight in them for that matter.

 

Besides each of the Mane 6 characters serve as respectable role models just as much as Twilight does. Making Twilight a Mary Sue would just put her above her friends, which as the Season 4 premier emphasized in a delicate balance, is not what the show wants to do.

 

Friendship is something that's unconditional anyways. I know I wouldn't put any of my friends above others. 

[Gary S. 102]

First of all, Joker's philosophy was highly flawed. He was in the end, proven wrong by the citizens of Gotham.

Slightly offtopic, but that was my biggest roll-eyes-moment in the whole movie. In reality one of the criminals or yuppies would have pushed the button. The Joker would have won without script protection.

Edited November 30, 2013 by Gary S.

[FNGRpony 655]

Slightly offtopic, but that was my biggest roll-eyes-moment in the whole movie. In reality one of the criminals or yuppies would have pushed the button. The Joker would have won without script protection.

there could have easily been a convict who found religion in jail who believed the only freedom he'd ever find is in the after life (true or not) so one throwing it out the window on that end isn't impossible.  As for the yuppie it think your forgetting yuppies are all about social status and pact mentality.

 

it would have been a huge social fo pa to be the one to push that button.  And what?  Spend the rest of his life as a social pariah? 

It's not complete bs, but your right, the odds would been with your theory.

 

back on topic

 

the consensuses of the thread is mary sue is something that only happens in fan fiction.  or rather that seems to be the universal shut up tag.

I will bow out.  as i've picked up 200 points of warn on a unrelated matter (i know ironic?)

Edited November 30, 2013 by FNGRpony

[SBaby 660]

Wishful thinking.

1) Madame Cheeseholelegs was a sort of alocorn herself.

 

In your own words.

 

And this is what makes the case for me. If she was an Alicorn, she was defeated with the help of a Unicorn. If she wasn't an Alicorn, she defeated an Alicorn with the help of a Unicorn. Either way, a Unicorn was necessary to defeat an Alicorn.

 

Now let's apply some simple logic. If Shining Armour was necessary to defeat both Chrysalis and Celestia, then that must mean Unicorn magic can be stronger than Alicorn magic.

 

Remember, Alicorns are the average of the two races, not the sum of their parts. It's kind of like dual-class characters in D&D. You have to use your experience points to level up both classes, so in total they level slower than a single-class character.

Edited December 2, 2013 by SBaby

[Noodles 109]

 

 

Remember, Alicorns are the average of the two races, not the sum of their parts. It's kind of like dual-class characters in D&D. You have to use your experience points to level up both classes, so in total they level slower than a single-class character.

Celesta is different than that I see her more as a gestalt  as twilight would be Multi class.

[Declen 118]

 

 

Now let's apply some simple logic. If Shining Armour was necessary to defeat both Chrysalis and Celestia, then that must mean Unicorn magic can be stronger than Alicorn magic.

You repeat youself. And your logic is flowed.

If you, let's say, armrestle with somebody, and to win you take steroids (or something, I don't really know that kind of stuff). And now you say, that because steroids helped you to win, they are stronger than humans. Steroids on themselves. That sounds absurd.

 

 

Alicorns are the average of the two races, not the sum of their parts. It's kind of like dual-class characters in D&D.

D&D has nothing to do with equestrian lore.

The canon is thar Royal Sisters are deity-like creatures - not just some "mix" - who live for millenia and maintain luminaries. They are not omnipotend, but it doesn't mean that they can be defeated by first best sucker just because he is a "pure" unicorn.

[King Sejong 858]

   Now to be fair, Mary Sue characters are a new addition to literature, great writers like William Shakespeare, Alexandre Dumas or Charles Dickens wrote there characters to be as three dimensional and flawed as possible, to connect with the reader, and it works just as well when adapted into the theatre and cinema, and that's why we remember these authors and the books. Perfect one dimensional characters that speak with pure eloquence or does everything with perfect timing will and does loose the audience, even the mistakes the Mary Sue character commits and not have repercussions as a result is equally insalubrious, the audience is smart and will not be as easily fooled by the sanitized jovial puppet, that's why the ponies are memorable for their differences and foible traits each one has, we can see ourselves in each ponies position, that includes the characters from past literature, thus MLP can and will possibly be remembered like the legendary stories of long past.     

[Noodles 109]

You repeat youself. And your logic is flowed. If you, let's say, armrestle with somebody, and to win you take steroids (or something, I don't really know that kind of stuff). And now you say, that because steroids helped you to win, they are stronger than humans. Steroids on themselves. That sounds absurd.

more like unicorn supported alicorn magic PS again because you Ignored it Love is a kind of Magic in equestriea.

 

The canon is thar Royal Sisters are deity-like creatures - not just some "mix" - who live for millenia and maintain luminaries. They are not omnipotend, but it doesn't mean that they can be defeated by first best sucker just because he is a "pure" unicorn.

where do you get your info that they are god level being?

 

and none of this bears on the real question of Mary Sue. a definition that seems to change with each telling.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Noodles

[Declen 118]

 

 

Love is a kind of Magic in equestriea.

Feeling Pinkie Keen

Twilight Sparkle: For one thing, [clears throat] magic is something you study and practice. It only happens when you decide to do it, and it's meant to make something specific that you choose to happen, happen.

 

So, no. Magic is a form of science in Equestria.

 

 

where do you get your info that they are god level being?

Comon knowledge.

 

 

and none of this bears on the real question of Mary Sue

Wlee, I agree. It's completely off-topic.

[crazitaco 596]

 

A true Mary Sue would be pretty awful in mlp. Twilight isn't a Mary Sue because there's still conflicts that she struggles with. She still has some flaws, although not many. It wouldn't be impossible for her to reach MS status, although I doubt it would happen.

 

I think I agree with an earlier statement that Mary Sues pretty much have to be a major/main character, not a supporting character like discord. Discord could be considered a MS if the story was centered around him, and he just defeated everyone who got in his way. But that's not the case. He been defeated numerous times, held prisoner/hostage by the mane six, had his will broken by flutters, and is now a reformed villain. Seriously though, he was out-manipulated by fluttershy of all ponies. His will is weaker than you think.

Edited December 2, 2013 by crazitaco

[Noodles 109]

Twilight Sparkle: For one thing, [clears throat] magic is something you study and practice. It only happens when you decide to do it, and it's meant to make something specific that you choose to happen, happen. So, no. Magic is a form of science in Equestria

so Candace Spreading love is study and Science not Love? (kind of screams mind control don't it?) or she has no magic one or the other.

Magic while being studied has a definite emotional component to it.

If Celesta is a god she is a pretty weak one. one changeling powered up by this totally not magic love stuff defeated her.

and the she was weak because she had to raise the sun doesn't hold water. at the time of the wedding she was only controlling the sun (daytime)

 

not the sun(daytime) and the moon(nighttime) Luna was back controlling the moon(nighttime) in equestrea the sun and moon I don't think are what we would normally we would think of them. the sun in Equestriea is Day not a Giant Ball of incandescent gas. while the moon is Night not a rocky ball.

notice in season 4 opening that when the sun and moon were out it was day and night.

 

so Celesta would Be only dealing with her own Element sun(daytime).

 

and Celesta and Luna could not defeat Discord they needed the elements of harmony. the same elements that were used by mortal ponies to defeat him.

so its Clear that it was the welding of the elements that did Discord in. not Celesta. not even Celesta and Luna.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Noodles