Double Rainboom Taken Down

[Slashy 101]

My big issue here is that if Hasbro gave her permission to use the likenesses of the characters, but he wasn't allowed to trace DHX's models, how does that make sense? You're saying that Hasbro gave him permission to use the likenesses and they could look as similar to theirs as he wanted, but he couldn't trace them? You're saying that Hasbro is arguing the method and not the product. How would it be any different if his animators drew them all by themselves and they looked identical (or pretty damn close to where it would be hard to tell) to how they do now?

 

That's the part I am most skeptical on because it doesn't make a lot of sense that Hasbro and DHX would get so nitpicky over the method even if an original method produced the exact same results. It's kind of a wishy-washy argument, and that seems awfully suspicious.

He was allowed to trace over the DHX assets, I never said he couldn't, this is an argument as to whether he traced or copied. I'm arguing it was very unlikely he traced over the DHX assets, due to them matching up 100% in both the look AND the way it was built.

 

And Hasbro absolutely should argue the method because that implies he was leaking out their assets with out their permission.

 

You...need to use Illustrator or Flash to understand how this is nearly impossible to do unless you were willing to spend a ridiculous number of hours making sure that everything looked the same down to the pixel.

Edited February 5, 2014 by NewsAnon

[lardbobobo 1,591]

@, Actually, it isn't that they are too similar. Even if it was traced you'd be able to know it was traced. Even the world's top forgers who get paid millions to do one can not make a 100% perfect forgery.

The issue is that they are the same. The pieces match up 100% and there is no denying that period. When you have something that matches up completely with wireframe you're screwed. To further this, and I will admit that this isn't distinguishable evidence but it is too much to let go, if you open up the pieces and check the timeline you'll notice that the way the frames are labled also matches up with the DHX ones.

Now then, if that still isn't enough everything else about this movie was not show accurate and it was done in an extremely short period of time. The puppet riggers still have no been able to do something that looks show accurate outside of this project when they weren't stretched for time. If the argument was they still look similar, what are the odds of them actually being able to do a show quality stallion rig when they have not been able to do anything else?

And to further this once again, Hasbro has sent many takedown notices to projects that are using the DHX rigs. Even if you are adding stuff to them, they will still cease and desist you. So once again even if the argument was that it is too similar, I think it holds a lot of water with this.

And also I don't want to put it personally but you kind of did don't put no offense after you say something with offense because that's just dumb. If you want to know how I know this stuff? I'm involved with a few pony projects myself with one in particular being huge. You hear a lot of interesting things and even if I was not credible the fact that an email was leaked to the internet after I posted what I posted and said that Zach's a liar should at the very least show that I have some truth to what I'm saying.

 

I cannot say this enough I had nothing against Zachary Rich. He seems like a nice guy, he got the people involved with DRB actual jobs, he teaches kids in class (I was an education major I love this kind of thing), and when DRB was going on  I was the one defending it. For implying something like this I'm actually kind of mad. infact that's another reason why I'm doing this whole thing because I can't BELIEVE he'd do something like this.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Lord Bababa

[Guest]

He was allowed to trace over the DHX assets, I never said he couldn't, this is an argument as to whether he traced or copied. I'm arguing it was very unlikely he traced over the DHX assets, due to them matching up 100% in both the look AND the way it was built.

 

And Hasbro absolutely should argue the method because that implies he was leaking out their assets with out their permission.

If that were the case though, then only the puppets would have been taken down. So once again, it falls under a matter of: something smells funny here.

[Slashy 101]

If that were the case though, then only the puppets would have been taken down. So once again, it falls under a matter of: something smells funny here.

Nah, I'm pretty sure if you're committing unauthorized distribution of something that wasn't supposed to be public, that's breaking the law.

[Guest]

 

 

To further this, and I will admit that this isn't distinguishable evidence but it is too much to let go, if you open up the pieces and check the timeline you'll notice that the way the frames are labled also matches up with the DHX ones.

 

That once again creates the problem of: Why would they not just take down the puppets and leave the episode alone? On top of this, you can still get so close that many people would not be able to tell the difference, so what difference does it make if he traced or not. If he didn't trace and got 99% accuracy when he had permission to use the likenesses, how much of a difference would it make? Even if it was 90% accuracy, many people would not be able to notice. This is the problem, you're saying Hasbro cares more about the method than the product which they gave permission to use.

 

I will admit if he released the puppets that were traced, they have a case there, but not for the episode which he had permission to make. They couldn't touch that, so I don't see why they would.

 

 

 

And also I don't want to put it personally but you kind of did don't put no offense after you say something with offense because that's just dumb.

 

 

I merely said it because as you can see from my argument, because I am stating you are not a credible source, I don't want you to take that as a personal gripe as we know many people would.

 

 

Nah, I'm pretty sure if you're committing unauthorized distribution of something that wasn't supposed to be public, that's breaking the law.

 

Re-read my post. I said if that were the case, then they would only take down the puppets because the only law broken then is the distribution. The episode would be irrelevant to that. If he had written permission to make the episode, they can't touch it unless they have a very specific clause in that permission letter. In this case the only reason to force it to be taken down would be to be spiteful, and I don't think Hasbro has the time or patience to do that. They would attack the thing that is actually breaking the rules, and leave the other aspects alone because it'll cause too much headache.

 

Essentially, if the issue is that he distributed the puppets, then why are they not going solely after them? Something doesn't seem right here.

[Slashy 101]

That once again creates the problem of: Why would they not just take down the puppets and leave the episode alone? On top of this, you can still get so close that many people would not be able to tell the difference, so what difference does it make if he traced or not. If he didn't trace and got 99% accuracy when he had permission to use the likenesses, how much of a difference would it make? Even if it was 90% accuracy, many people would not be able to notice. This is the problem, you're saying Hasbro cares more about the method than the product which they gave permission to use.

 

I will admit if he released the puppets that were traced, they have a case there, but not for the episode which he had permission to make. They couldn't touch that, so I don't see why they would.

 

 

 

 

 

I merely said it because as you can see from my argument, because I am stating you are not a credible source, I don't want you to take that as a personal gripe as we know many people would.

I'll make another argument, he never also gave credit to Hasbro for the assets, he would have to update the film to give Hasbro credit....if you haven't forgot this was an academic project...do you realize he can get in academic trouble for this?

[Guest]

 

 

You...need to use Illustrator or Flash to understand how this is nearly impossible to do unless you were willing to spend a ridiculous number of hours making sure that everything looked the same down to the pixel.

 

I understand the programs quite well, but could someone please provide me some images that showcase how they line up "perfectly"? I hear people keep saying it, but let's see it. Show me. Give me the visual here, stop explaining it, and just show it.

I'll make another argument, he never also gave credit to Hasbro for the assets, he would have to update the film to give Hasbro credit....if you haven't forgot this was an academic project...do you realize he can get in academic trouble for this?

Ehhhh, I wouldn't say that. I am not too familiar with the rules, but the copyright laws bend a little bit for educational things, and with written permission that kind of changes the rules a bit too. I am not going to say he is in the wrong or not in the wrong with that though simply because I am not 100% on the law, but I am pretty sure that someone should look into that a bit deeper before making that claim. Someone perhaps with expertise in that.

[Slashy 101]

I understand the programs quite well, but could someone please provide me some images that showcase how they line up "perfectly"? I hear people keep saying it, but let's see it. Show me. Give me the visual here, stop explaining it, and just show it.

I did already you seemed to ignore this post.

 

Again you forget this is an academic project, this is him getting caught for plagarism by the creator itself. This looks bad on him and his school. If you use an asset you didn't make that isn't public domain/royalty free, you need to credit the author. He never cited the DHX assets as a source.

 

http://img.ctrlv.in/img/52f28e40b283a.png

Edited February 5, 2014 by NewsAnon

[catbooks 0]

Right, Mist, I don't think you get it.

You can't trace with the lines that close.

It's impossible.

And Zach wouldn't have been able to know exactly how they're built.

There wasn't any flash game rips available either.

So, yea.

[XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX 777]

I never did watch DR, the one or two preview vids I saw just put me off because it seemed to be pointed towards le~memes. By the way the comments have gone through this thread, it seems I was right. 

 

@

I can understand where you're coming from, but there's always been some form of truth in bigger situations such as this when it comes from Anon. Lets move along though, if the crew REALLY did redraw/revector everything without tracing, there would still be some form of human error or dissimilarities between the fan made content and the DHX rigs. Non the less though, if he even used ONE INNOCENT piece of rigging material that wasn't his, such as these mouth comparisons between DHX rigs and the DR production, then Hasbro/DHX is within their right to take everything down associated with it. 

 

 

[lardbobobo 1,591]

@, because it goes a little deeper. This was a college project where he had to make all of the rigs himself elsewise he would get into huge, huge, HUGE trouble. And this is literally just stuff that you can find on SCAD's website. They don't like this kind of thing. Furthermore, Hasbro is taking things down that use DHX assets because they don't want people using them period to the point where even if the project iself is finished they will take it down.

 

Also your comment about from your argument still doesn't hold any water and its even worse now because you are literally saying that from your own personal point of view I'm not credible. Now I don't want to fight with you on that because that's just your literal opinion and I'm fine with that. The only thing I can do to change that is to show that I am credible and unfortunatly this is about as far as I can go. I don't like it because I straight up know things that people don't but I'd be breaching people's trust if I were to share. Everything I posted so far is actually public information and can be found easily.

I don't want to leak things because that's wrong. For the people who have leaked emails, I know that proves my point even more but that's still wrong. Mr. Mist, if there's anything I can do to prove this to you please tell me.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Lord Bababa

[Guest]

I did already you seemed to ignore this post.

 

Again you forget this is an academic project, this is him getting caught for plagarism by the creator itself. This looks bad on him and his school.

 

http://img.ctrlv.in/img/52f28e40b283a.png

 

Actually, the image didn't show up before for some reason, but thank you. Also as far as plagiarism goes, as I said, I am not certain that the rules are the same here. The written permission thing kind of messes that up a bit on Hasbro's part, and I think we'd have to see the specifics of their written agreement before we can safely say that he violated the agreement to where they had grounds to take the episode down.

 

In light of the new evidence (which I thank you for), I agree that this does look traced and if that is the case, the puppets should not have been distributed and they definitely should have been taken down. As for the episode, it was shameful to advertise it was entirely fan made, but I am drawing the conclusion at this point that the episode was taken down not because of a C&D from Hasbro (though the puppets definitely were), but because he was ashamed of how he got caught in such a shameful act. I suspect Hasbro was going to let him keep the episode (unless I can see the agreement, which would verify if he was within his rights to keep it up or not) but after the shame of being caught tracing like this and getting a C&D for the puppets, pride took over.

 

Though it is very possible (once again provided the agreement allowed this) that Hasbro was annoyed enough to where they demanded it all go. It's very possible, though I can not say concretely as we still lack the original agreement to verify 100%, but it definitely looks like I was mistaken, and I thank you guys for providing this evidence.

 

 

Also your comment about from your argument still doesn't hold any water and its even worse now because you are literally saying that from your own personal point of view I'm not credible. Now I don't want to fight with you on that because that's just your literal opinion and I'm fine with that.

 

My wording is very poor sometimes. What I mean to say is that from my standpoint, where I am sitting, imagine you're me. You are assuring me something is true, because you said it's true. From where I am sitting that is saying that a stranger I know nothing about's word should be held as true because he said it. I am trying to say your word alone is not enough to prove things to me. I apologize if it came off as I was saying you don't check your sources. I guess what I was trying to say is: "I'd like to see your sources".

 

 

 

Mr. Mist, if there's anything I can do to prove this to you please tell me.

 

Oh there's no need! I didn't notice the evidence posted before. I've seen it now, and I agree that Mr. Rich was wrong to a large degree. The only thing I hold off on is if he had permission to keep the episode up or not, simply because I can not see the agreement made between him and Hasbro. If someone has that though, I would gladly give it a read and modify my thoughts as such.

[Slashy 101]

Actually, the image didn't show up before for some reason, but thank you. Also as far as plagiarism goes, as I said, I am not certain that the rules are the same here. The written permission thing kind of messes that up a bit on Hasbro's part, and I think we'd have to see the specifics of their written agreement before we can safely say that he violated the agreement to where they had grounds to take the episode down.

 

In light of the new evidence (which I thank you for), I agree that this does look traced and if that is the case, the puppets should not have been distributed and they definitely should have been taken down. As for the episode, it was shameful to advertise it was entirely fan made, but I am drawing the conclusion at this point that the episode was taken down not because of a C&D from Hasbro (though the puppets definitely were), but because he was ashamed of how he got caught in such a shameful act. I suspect Hasbro was going to let him keep the episode (unless I can see the agreement, which would verify if he was within his rights to keep it up or not) but after the shame of being caught tracing like this and getting a C&D for the puppets, pride took over.

 

Though it is very possible (once again provided the agreement allowed this) that Hasbro was annoyed enough to where they demanded it all go. It's very possible, though I can not say concretely as we still lack the original agreement to verify 100%, but it definitely looks like I was mistaken, and I thank you guys for providing this evidence.

 

 

 

My wording is very poor sometimes. What I mean to say is that from my standpoint, where I am sitting, imagine you're me. You are assuring me something is true, because you said it's true. From where I am sitting that is saying that a stranger I know nothing about's word should be held as true because he said it. I am trying to say your word alone is not enough to prove things to me. I apologize if it came off as I was saying you don't check your sources. I guess what I was trying to say is: "I'd like to see your sources".

 

 

 

 

Oh there's no need! I didn't notice the evidence posted before. I've seen it now, and I agree that Mr. Rich was wrong to a large degree. The only thing I hold off on is if he had permission to keep the episode up or not, simply because I can not see the agreement made between him and Hasbro. If someone has that though, I would gladly give it a read and modify my thoughts as such.

I'm not arguing traced, I'm arguing copying outright. Human error, unless you're AIMING for 100% accuracy in how it was built will show up in the wireframe.

 

Flamingo didn't build this, but someone on his team did (someone who I hope is blacklisted from the industry for this dishonesty, it's actually public knowledge who is responsible for it). But the fact is, he was the lead producer and director, he shared a big part of the responsibility.

 

In order to prevent this there are four unfortunate answers...:

 

A. Don't base your student film entirely on copyrighted work

B. Don't try to mimic the way something is created as the basis of your student film

C. Don't recruit strangers on the internet for something serious like a student film

D. Don't give people you're new to working with too much autonomy, observe your staff members regularly

[Captain Brony (MG11) 218]

Hmm Zach has showcased behavior like this before.

He also knows when a fan project goes down that the fandom flips tables.

 

Spontaneous takedown? Or publicity stunt?

[Flutter's lover <3 8,204]

I watched it a couple times. It was alright. Better than anything I could do. There were just too many references to bronydom/shout-outs in it. It more or less ruined the episode. I sort of get why the Power Puff Girls were in it. But why were they there? They have nothing to do with MLP story wise....which contradicts his "100% show accuracy thing" that he promised. There were many other things(Cartoon Network stuff) that contradicted his "100% Show Accuracy thing" other than the Power Puff Girls but not gonna go into that. The characters really didn't act like themselves either.

 

But why take it down? There's no harm in leaving it up. That seems to be a dick move on his part and not giving creditor thanks for any of the other people that worked on the project.

 

Sorry, but the respect I had for this dude is mostly gone now. And I have no interest in watching or following up on "True Tail" whatever that is.

Edited February 5, 2014 by ~TGAP Flutterdash~

[Guest]

I'm not arguing traced, I'm arguing copying outright. Human error, unless you're AIMING for 100% accuracy in how it was built will show up in the wireframe.

 

Flamingo didn't build this, but someone on his team did (someone who I hope is blacklisted from the industry for this dishonesty, it's actually public knowledge who is responsible for it). But the fact is, he was the lead producer and director, he shared a big part of the responsibility.

 

In order to prevent this there are four unfortunate answers...:

 

A. Don't base your student film entirely on copyrighted work

B. Don't try to mimic the way something is created as the basis of your student film

C. Don't recruit strangers on the internet for something serious like a student film

D. Don't give people you're new to working with too much autonomy, observe your staff members regularly

I agree this could have been avoided.

 

I also agree, it definitely looks now like this was traced and violated his original agreement, and as leader of the project, he definitely needs to take responsibility, and I can understand from a business standpoint that he wanted to cover this up. Not good for business, I am sure. However from a moral standpoint, yes lying like this was not wise either. As much as coming forward and stating that some of his animators broke the rules of the agreement would have lost him some support, it's arguable that it would have been as much as if he tried to cover it up and lie to the public. The choices were more or less "take one hit, or take the other hit", he chose the one he thought he could get away with, and it failed. From a business standpoint I can understand, but it's definitely a shitty thing to do, and it certainly says something about his business practices if he is starting business based upon deceiving his fans.

 

As far as people calling him a traitor just for taking it down they are kind of still being self entitled. I mean as much as he is in the wrong (and he definitely is), the fans who were upset not because Hasbro had any involvement or it was traced, but solely because he took it down are being incredibly self entitled.

[Slashy 101]

 

In light of the new evidence (which I thank you for), I agree that this does look traced and if that is the case, the puppets should not have been distributed and they definitely should have been taken down. As for the episode, it was shameful to advertise it was entirely fan made, but I am drawing the conclusion at this point that the episode was taken down not because of a C&D from Hasbro (though the puppets definitely were), but because he was ashamed of how he got caught in such a shameful act. I suspect Hasbro was going to let him keep the episode (unless I can see the agreement, which would verify if he was within his rights to keep it up or not) but after the shame of being caught tracing like this and getting a C&D for the puppets, pride took over.

Holy Celestia, and I mean this with no sarcasm, I'm impressed. Your argument makes ALOT of sense. It may have VERY WELL been a polite e-mail from Hasbro, but the subject matter would have no doubt been very serious in his situation. This explains why he isn't sharing details, and why he is shutting everything down and making up a reason why.

 

Every detail brings more and more shame upon him and threatens the success of True Tail.

 

 

 

Hmm Zach has showcased behavior like this before.

He also knows when a fan project goes down that the fandom flips tables.

 

Spontaneous takedown? Or publicity stunt?

I don't want to share my source (if you push me I will), but supposedly the story Flamingo is sharing with his current team is that he no longer cares about the FIM fandom and that it is time to move away from it, though the way my source told me it may seem like Flamingo has no problems with ruining his relationship with this fandom.

Edited February 5, 2014 by NewsAnon

[The Soldier 2,043]

Then how did it stay on the internet for so long?

 

The same way Fighting is Magic was in progress for about 2 years, and how Molestia has been around since almost the beginning of the brony fandom. Both have been taken down.

 

Hasbro is being a complete dick. What's next? Take down Friendship is Witchcraft? Take down Snowdrop? Screw you, Hasbro

[FoxyCryptid 4,327]

Eh, that's more or less the argument of "stuff is too similar, therefore it must be traced".

 

And I would like to see this concrete evidence. I am not arguing against you to support Mr. Rich, I however would like solid proof before accusing someone of something so serious. I am an artist myself, and I know as a fact that many people try to emulate the show style and come pretty damn close to it without tracing. So the argument of "this is too similar" isn't a very good one because it's arguing the method and not the product, and you're going to be hard pressed proving that.

 

But it's not that argument at all, it's more "things two things appear to carbon copies with the exact same linework" mimicking a shows style is different from just ripping assets from it and re-using them.  

 

One is paying tribute, the other is claiming the work of whatever animator made the puppet as your own. 

[Slashy 101]

The same way Fighting is Magic was in progress for about 2 years, and how Molestia has been around since almost the beginning of the brony fandom. Both have been taken down.

 

Hasbro is being a complete dick. What's next? Take down Friendship is Witchcraft? Take down Snowdrop? Screw you, Hasbro

If this is true that not only were DHX parts used, but that Hasbro took it down for those reasons, then I feel both morally and legally Hasbro is in the right position.

 

I can say that my source on his current team has told me that the team's response was along the lines of, "No, everything was custom, it looks so close to DHX because we got a lot of references and put a lot of time into it."

 

Yes, apparently the team believes you can build something EXACTLY like the show JUST by looking at decompiled flash games and high quality screencaps from the show.

Edited February 5, 2014 by NewsAnon

[Guest]

But it's not that argument at all, it's more "things two things appear to carbon copies with the exact same linework" mimicking a shows style is different from just ripping assets from it and re-using them.  

 

One is paying tribute, the other is claiming the work of whatever animator made the puppet as your own. 

If you read my more recent comments, I have since changed my opinion based upon new information.

 

 

 

Holy Celestia, and I mean this with no sarcasm, I'm impressed. Your argument makes ALOT of sense. It may have VERY WELL been a polite e-mail from Hasbro, but the subject matter would have no doubt been very serious in his situation. This explains why he isn't sharing details, and why he is shutting everything down and making up a reason why.   Every detail brings more and more shame upon him and threatens the success of True Tail.

 

Business is business. What can I say? Making moves to ensure successful business is sadly usually optioned in place of making moves to be a good person.

 

 

 

I don't want to share my source (if you push me I will), but supposedly the story Flamingo is sharing with his current team is that he no longer cares about the FIM fandom and that it is time to move away from it, though the way my source told me it may seem like Flamingo has no problems with ruining his relationship with this fandom.

 

 

If that is the case, the reason could be because of being caught. I mean it makes sense that he knows the story will get out, so he wants to distance himself from bronies long before that happens. It makes sense really. Still totally sneaky and underhanded, but it looks like Mr. Rich is focusing solely on business and has little care what people's personal opinion of him is at this point. Not sure if this is a wise move, I suppose we'll wait and see.

If this is true that not only were DHX parts used, but that Hasbro took it down for those reasons, then I feel both morally and legally Hasbro is in the right position.

Hasbro had reasoning for taking them down, I discussed this in another thread, but the short version is:

 

If you don't seek permission, technically Hasbro has authority to take a lot of stuff down. They choose to ignore much of it because they see it as no threat. However they clearly saw Molestia and Fighting is Magic as a threat, and decided to take action. Legally, as I discussed in the other threads, they have a pretty hard case to beat.

 

Also they aren't really "dicks" for controlling their property. Some people may be stoked that people are using their work at all, some aren't. Either way, saying they are dicks is to say that they shouldn't have control over their intellectual property and that's just wrong. Whether not you agree with their way of protecting it is up to you and I will stand by the idea that you are free to do either or.

[Slashy 101]

Because True Tail is a passion project at this moment, with only the promise that the team will ever get paid if there is an investment, means that everything the show sort of teaches us about friendship is important for this project to have a chance.

 

I'd wager in Flamingo's position, he's aware that he's on the verge of losing most of his team. Again, if I need to reveal my source I will, but apparently Flamingo is now telling his team that they might be picked up for a new show on The Hub in 2015. My source tells me that Flamingo didn't think this was important enough to tell the FIM fandom.

[Guest]

Because True Tail is a passion project at this moment, with only the promise that the team will ever get paid if there is an investment, means that everything the show sort of teaches us about friendship is important for this project to have a chance.

 

I'd wager in Flamingo's position, he's aware that he's on the verge of losing most of his team. Again, if I need to reveal my source I will, but apparently Flamingo is now telling his team that they might be picked up for a new show on The Hub in 2015. My source tells me that Flamingo didn't think this was important enough to tell the FIM fandom.

I guess we'll wait and see.

[Oblivion 20,265]

Remember guys this is the internet, nothing just magically vanishes, you CAN watch it here in the form of a lets watch...

 

Though I do find it annoying that Rich would take it down, why not just leave the official ones up for the hell of it?

But lets look on the bright side, at least all the Lets Watch versions of DRB are still up, lets just hope he don't start going around to all of peoples lets watch videos and requesting that they take them down!

[CT-1138 3,180]

Even if he does want to move on to bigger things, why remove the work that not only he did, but several others as well? It's like an Indy director moving on to studio directing and so burns his old films that took the effort of a lot of people. Not only does it not make sense from a group viewpoint, but what he did he should be proud of, not try to hide away.