The Second Opinion

The general reaction seemed to be that they got better as they went, and when I started out reviewing them, I agreed. But while issue #4 was the epic payoff, I thought #3 was still the master of the off-the-wall (and slightly dark) humor, which makes it hard to decide. So my order from best to worst right now is

- #3 or #4

- #2

- #1

What are your thoughts and how do you rank them?

Intentional or not, she definitely has traits indicative of aspergers. But I think whether she actually does is trivial compared to how it factors into the episode, and yes, either way, Maud is used to explore what makes people with these traits tick and how a little patience and understanding can be all it takes for them to become a friend like any other.

There's really no need to definitively establish it or to cry "stop projecting!" when people make the comparison, as though someone is trying to repossess the character from you.

While I did think it had some trouble starting out and only really began to rival the first two in its second half - onward from Pinkie's Pride - that's more than I can say for season 3. (And even season 3 I don't hate, btw. It had its moments.)

When it comes to this kind of thing, in my experience, there's really is no easy spot to place the blame. Because while there is such a thing as nostalgic bias, there's also what I like to call "new toy" bias, where it's simpler for people enjoying the latest episode to dismiss the older ones and tell themselves they have everything they need right here. 

Having watched all of the episodes in row over the past few months and looked up some of the corresponding reactions, I actually find the brony fandom relatively accepting of new things compared to other fandoms. In fact, while I found season 3 and some of season 4 a little more wooden and less inspired than the first two (for example, the surprise bursts of creativity like reworking songs from musicals, Benny Hill chase scenes, and Twilight bursting into flames don't really happen anymore), most people, when I said so, seemed to wish I'd been a little more positive. And despite the instances of minor backlash that do speak to nostalgic bias, just look at Twilight becoming a princess: It would sound like a huge sellout from the outside looking in, and even worse, the episode did only the bare minimum to justify it. But the writers found legitimate ways to weave it into the story after that and continue to explore her character, and not only did the fans seem willing to hear them out, as far as I can tell, all but the obligatory minimum of ill will has been washed away. 

Eh, been there, done that 

I definitely think The Crystal Empire Parts 1 & 2 (basically one episode) is the most boring episode of the show. It is the only episode to date that I had to force myself to get through it. It just kept on going with boring filler, especially in the middle, and the villain did not interest me in the slightest. That, along with some other issues I had, are why I consider the season three premiere to be the worst episode in the show.

I do agree that it's the worst premiere in the show,  although it still looks like I liked it better than you did.

Somepony To Watch Over Me

That one was a lot of things that weren't good, but boring? I dunno...

The difference is that Rarity is self aware enough to chastise herself for being jealous. Every other show treats jealousy as something bad, saying you shouldn't ever be jealous. This one treats it as something natural, that you will be jealous sometimes but there are ways to deal with it.

Again, I'm not seeing the difference. Rarity's jealousy isn't supposed to be a good thing here either. It comes across like you're reading into the few seconds Rarity spends saying to Twilight that she knows she shouldn't be jealous but is. Not that there's anything wrong with liking that moment, which is a nice little bit establishing that Rarity is 3-dimensional, but I'm not about to take any great insight on jealousy from that.

Um... no it doesn't? She's elated to sing from the very first minute. It is exactly just doing the same note over and over. And wait, how many times is Fluttershy's modeling actually shown before the climax? Like twice?

 

 

Well, I'm gonna have to again disagree with you with evidence to the contrary. The first performance shows Fluttershy nervous but then getting into it as the episode goes on. The next few show her enjoying it in new ways, first belting out the song more passionately than she did before, then dancing in her hiding place and changing the words to play it up, and finally in her last performance, pushing Big Mac out to center stage as though she's imagining it herself and going full force in playing it up. The point of Fluttershy's modeling is that ponies think her timid squinting is cute. 

And to answer your question, there are 7 different scenes of Fluttershy being photographed, including a 2 1/2 minute montage of 3 different times in the middle, and that's disregarding the opening about her getting the cutesy spa treatment and the several other cuteness gags the throw in. Or, if you don't want to hold it strictly to individual moments and just add up the time spent on sequences centered around putting her in outfits and/or photographing her, it's over 7 minutes, or 1/3 of the episode, including the intro portion, theme song, and credits.

So you think Twilight should have just told them? That's fine, but the episode disagrees. You can't ask the episode to give the opposite message.

You can if it's not a matter of a message, just a case of using stupidity as the driving force to keep the conflict going. The idea of not being able to solve the problem because you've been sworn into contractual secrecy by "cross my heart and hope to fly" is a gimmick dilemma for sitcommy plots that NOBODY is hindered by in real life, save for elementary school kids who only think they should be because of episodes like this in the first place. Even people who wouldn't be comfortable just revealing it would be smart enough to say "in that case, you should tell them yourself. Trust me, it's not what you think."

Castle Mane-ia.

 

Pointless Scooby-Doo hijinks, and the "Pony Of Shadows" at the end was most likely just Zecora.

Yeah, that's another one I thought needed to step it up. "Pointless" is the key word, because it reveals early on that nothing is actually wrong and it's just the ponies scaring each other with gimmicky funs house stuff in wooden fashion.

@@The Second Opinion

I found this one of the best episodes of season 1. It showcases just how close friends Rarity and Fluttershy are, and manages to show quite a lot between them even from primarily Twilight's perspective. I can't really address your points directly, proving them wrong or anything, but I will add a bit that I enjoyed related to those points.

 

Rarity spends most of the time on the sidelines being jealous, yes. Here's what I absolutely love about that. In any other show, we'd get this exchange:

"Rarity, don't you think you're just being jealous of Fluttershy?"

"Of course I'm not jealous, I just deserve success more than her!"

But this show is smart enough not to just do the same thing as always, and we get this:

"Rarity, you don't really want Fluttershy to fail, do you??"

"Oh of course not! I should be happy for her and instead I'm just... jealous! I'm a terrible friend!"

 

Rarity's struggle is not with Fluttershy but with herself, and most importantly she's completely aware of this. She agonizes inwardly because she's trying to cope with her own feelings, and in the end decides that just because she's jealous that doesn't mean she can't support her friend. From beginning to end, Rarity does not want her friend to give up on an opportunity just to spare her feelings.

 

 

Fluttershy's cutesy antics, I dunno what to say, I mean it was a plot point. At the very least I can confidently say this was done VASTLY better than in Filli Vanilli, Fluttershy becoming a model is drastically more believable than becoming a pop sensation.

First, she actually is visually appealing. I don't think anyone can really deny this, her delicate features and long hair is clearly supposed to be "pretty" compared to Twilight or Dash. Conversely, she is simply not a great singer. Twilight, Rarity, and Pinkie are the singers of the group, shown by how the recording studio has actual singers do their songs rather than just have the VA's sing it. They have a singers' voice, while Dash, AJ, and Fluttershy do not. Of course I'm not saying they can't sing, but they're clearly not meant to be great singers.

Second, it's not Rarity or another friend telling Fluttershy how great a model she is, it's someone she doesn't know, Photo Finish. And here's the important part, we're clearly shown that Photo Finish has a particular preference that Fluttershy satisfies. She prefers the demure, unconfident modeling and that is why Fluttershy is chosen to be a model, not because she's prettier than Rarity or some nonsense. But in Filli Vanilli, Rarity just goes up to Fluttershy and says "Wow Fluttershy you're the best singer ever." It's simply not plausible by any stretch of logic.

 

 

And Pinkie's subplot with Twilight, wasn't that the whole moral? I mean there was a lot more than that between Rarity and Fluttershy, but the moral is about Twilight's perspective of events. It's like Dragonshy, the story isn't at all about Fluttershy overcoming her fears, no she comes out the same way as she comes in. The episode is about Twilight observing and learning that sometimes your friends will surprise you in the most unexpected ways. I mean, unlike that episode, Fluttershy and Rarity really do learn a lesson, but Twilight's involvement (and by extension Pinkie's) is still important to the episode.

 

 

Meanwhile there's plenty more to love. Remember when Rarity saved Fluttershy from humiliation with dishonesty, by pretending to enjoy the performance and manipulating the socialites? Remember a season later, when Fancy Pants does the exact same thing to save Rarity? Talk about karmic absolution! And hey, who's to say Fancy Pants wasn't at the modeling show, and saw what Rarity did for her friend? Heck, even Cheese Sandwich pulls the same stunt to save Pinkie from her own jealousy.

 

Oh, and let's not forget THIS

 

Vital Spark, on 18 Jan 2015 - 4:21 PM, said:

Really? You have to remember, Twilight is new to having friends, she's still learning the most basic things. Pinkie has more friends than anyone, and she personally attests that breaking her friends' confidence is the worst thing for keeping friends. You really think Twilight would just ignore an expert's opinion? I mean it's not like she doesn't struggle with it, but NOPONY knows friendship better than Pinkie and Pinkie says "DON'T DO IT".

Hm... well, which shows are you referring to that gave us that exchange instead? Because I'm not seeing new insight into jealousy here. "Just because she's jealous that doesn't mean she can't support her friend" sounds like every moral on jealousy ever. And granted, it's nice to see Rarity step up to the plate, but that only happens at the end, after she's been playing pretty much the same note on the sidelines the entire episdoe.

On Filli Vanilli, I'm gonna have to disagree with you. Besides the fact that Fluttershy was joining an already popular group and didn't become "a pop sensation," her montage in that episode tells the story of her discovering her joy in performing, communicating the sense of elation and how it grows over time very well to us, the audience. Green Isn't Your Color just had her playing the same, ahem, note over and over and over for the sole purpose of making viewers coo. Granted, Filli Vanilli is guilty of using the "we never said she couldn't" card to explain Fluttershy's singing, but that begs the question of why it was under the surface so long more than it hurts any other episode's credibility. The singing itself, as done by the actress, fit the bill just fine. "Likelihood" based on headcanon and reading into side details from other episodes is not something I'm all that interested in debating when discussing the effectiveness of a specific story arc.

And as for Pinkie's subplot with Twilight, you mean being able to keep secrets was the moral? Because I don't think ANYONE would walk away from this thinking Twilight pretending she doesn't know the obvious solution to this problem proved anything. I suppose you could skim past the part about jealousy and say it's about being open with your friends, but what does Twilight being pressured to delay the solution because of Pinkie Pie promise chants have to do with that? Of all the ways it could have structured this conflict, why put an obvious solution on the table and then pretend it isn't obvious?

A lot of episodes get flak for breaking continuity or being really stupid/unfunny, but which is most guilty in your eyes of being plain old boring?

For me, it was actually Green Isn't Your Color (not a popular choice), because I thought Rarity's arc was pushed to the sidelines and left stagnant, in favor of overloading on repetitive "cute" Fluttershy antics (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIORsxPIk84)

But I've also heard arguements for Ain't Easy Being Breezies and there were I couple more that had trouble holding my attention. Thoughts?

I really didn't like this episode back in the day. But I got a lot of objections, and I did want to consider it again.

Here's my perspective (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIORsxPIk84);

On one hand:

- I thought it was boring and stagnant. Rarity is apparently our main character, as she's the one who has to grow, to overcome her insecurities and save the day, but she spends most of it just jealously watching the action happen on the sidelines.

- Instead, they focus on overloading Fluttershy's cutesy antics, trying to make everthing she does oh-so precious, as though it wants to be about timid squinting. (Wasn't this generation of the franchise trying to evolve beyond just relying on that?)

- Pinkie Pie's subplot about keeping secrets was an annoying an unecessary way to drag out the conflict. Nobody's going to watch this thinking the right thing for Twilight to do was pretend she didn't know that Rarity and Fluttershy wanted the exact same thing.

 

On the other hand:
 

- I could be missing the appeal of Fluttershy, who bronies in general seem to love for her cutsiness, while I just see her as a decent character in the main cast who still isn't my favorite.

- And what's more, the antics here do try to show off more than just her "cute" faces, throwing in some comedy and some goofy characters for her to play off of.

- So maybe it's just a good "day in the life" episode for fans.

Thoughts?

I liked Lesson Zero's better myself. Odd as this is to say, Pinkie Pie's collapse was a bit unstructured. They gave her a little too much empty space to spiral out of control in, and we're mostly left watching her essentially playing off herself.

I think it's important to keep in mind that personality is not the same as weakness. Someone can be kind and shy while not needing a giant dragon attacking her friends to know when to stand firm. (It's actually a lesson that Putting Your Hoof Down pulled off rather well, for my money.) And no, you don't need to cling to one flaw to make a character interesting.

Eh, stuff like the way she was able to step in and break up Rainbow and Twilight's argument in Testing I think works to demonstrate that she's gone from cripplingly antisocial to competent-if-timid. Stuff like Filli Vanilli is more a case of plain old personal anxieties. I will give this show credit (in spots) for more realistic development, understanding that morals and competence can grow and change, but personalities are sort of rooted at the core. 

she is a small child her personality could vary day to day really that's how i see it

I think medically, that's deemed "schizophrenia" 

OK I got the big one.

 

Lauren Faust is not a freaking god.

 

I mean, I respect her for the things she did bring us, and the world and characters she brought. But that doesn't mean you're a good writer. She seems to be a better show runner than she is a writer. The episodes she did write had a main problem of lacking subtly and having some of the most cheesiest dialogue I have ever seen.

 

Also, season 1 is not best season. It may be to some people but not to me. It didn't feel it got really good until about 7 episodes in. It also kind of had to ease in to the good writing seeing as how the show was just establishing itself. After they established everything, then the show got really good and the other seasons were built on top of each other.

 

Eh, I don't think that's all that big, unless there's a side to this I haven't seen. To me and most of the fans I've come across, Friendship is Magic is one of the better 2-parters and Ticket Master is fine, but nobody put up much of a fight when I pointed out flaws in either of them. While her "power of friendship" speeches were miles better than the same kind of speeches from Yugioh, they could still be pretty gushy. I did like season 2 a little better than season 1 myself, and I think season 3 being such a step down was more a case of the team just blowing it than the show being lost without her.

I never understood why Season 1 was placed in such a high regard by some people, even calling it the best season of the show. Don't get me wrong, it was still better then S3 and has some very great episodes like Winter Wrap Up, Cutie Mark Cronicles and Party of one, but i felt that it was a very experimental season. They used this season to establish alot of the characters first, before moving on to bigger things, which we have seen in S2 and S4 (and a bit in S3)

That's why i think S4 is my favorite season, because it takes big risks and i love that. I would rather have a show that takes big risks and have a few bad episodes, then having a show that plays it safe and has just okay episodes. Episodes like Pinkie Pride, Maud Pie, For whom the Sweetie Belle tolls, testing, testing, 1,2,3 are all pony classics for me.

I guess this is the other side of the story to what I just finished saying, but I do think there were many perks to being the "experimental" phase, with a certain sense of enthusiasm and genuineness. The reworked songs from famous musicals, the Benny Hill references, and the animation gags like Twilight bursting into flames were all genuinely enjoyable touches that just don't happen anymore. And on the flip side, I thought the first half of season 4 spent a lot of time working its way back up, with a lot of forced episodes more interested in the scenarios it could put the gang in than in how it could explore them. (And I'm not even talking about Rainbow Falls, which I actually liked in spite of its sloppiness.)

Well, just the ones that I probably won't be using as the subject of anything in the near future;

Pinkie Pie was hilarious in Filli Vanilli, and the hatred for it is a classic case of missing the joke, which was making fun of the "isn't it great that everyone will be watching your every move while you're onstage?" trope. What's more, this is an ironic shame, because the show has used that trope before, with Fluttershy doing it to Rainbow Dash in Sonic Rainboom, Photo Finish and Rarity doing it to Fluttershy in Green Isn't Your Color and Hearth's Warming Eve, ect. and because the trope itself is REALLY stupid. (Yet it, of course, never got any backlash.)

Season 4 wasn't much better than season 3 until it got to Pinkie's Pride.

Pinkie Pie's existential crisis in Pinkie's Pride was a lame bid for melodrama in the last episode that called for it.

Rarity only has 2 great episodes, and neither of them are from season 1 (or include songs). 

And of course, I just started a thread and did a video on For Whom The Sweetie Belle Toils hurting Sweetie Belle as a character, so there's that.

My impression is that this is a phase of growing up for her. Twilight Time shows similar behavior. She wants to be popular, first by learning skills from Twilight, and then just by knowing Twilight. But that didn't work out, so in Belle Tolls, she has a new plan to become popular by her own skills, with the play. And if Rarity hadn't been too stressed out to think deeply, she probably would have realized that what Sweetie really needed from her was knowledge, and not finished products.

 

So the problem wasn't so much being outshined by Rarity specifically, but just not getting the attention she was expecting from everything else she did for the play. Disappointment turns to anger, and Rarity is the one who got the attention Sweetie wanted, so obviously she becomes the target of the anger, and then Sweetie comes up with the conspiracy theory that Rarity did it on purpose.

 

I do agree that it makes her much less likeable. The attention seeking itself is pretty relatable, but scheming and taking advantage of Twilight, and assuming the worst of Rarity, were both pretty poor showings of character on Sweetie's part. But hopefully it is only a phase, and she won't go all Kate Sanders on her friends (brohoof to anyone who gets that reference ) and become a nasty cheerleader type.

You just had to make me remember that I remember Lizzy McGuire...   

That does sound pretty close to my conclusion (save for the part about Rarity needing to rethink giving Sweetie Belle a finished product), but I will say that it didn't help their case that they tried a little too hard to weave in the 5th birthday party as a grudge that was totally always there.  

Granted, the season 3 finale was the only one I thought was anything less than great for this show, but I'd probably have to put Best Night Ever/Grand Galloping Gala in third. 

While, I do think you brought up valid points in the video,  I do  think that as you put, Sweetie  is growing up  and  changing.  Something  else to mull over is that perhaps  Sweetie Belle has  had  these feelings   of living under Rarity's  shadow  for some time now  and  the  costumes was the  thing that pushed her over the edge.  True,  we have never seen this brought up before but that doesn't mean,  Sweetie Belle  didn't  have these feelings.  She could have been  keeping them bottled up  and   she  just exploded on Rarity here.  It was not the best way to handle things  but a lot of us have been in situation not unlike what Sweetie Belle was feeling.

Well, one of the points I tried to make in the video was that her past actions also suggested her real feelings weren't in that vicinity either (the bit on Sisterhooves Social and all that). Growing and changing is still a legitimate possibility though, just one that, as they depicted it, is sort of a shame when you were as genuine and likable as Sweetie Belle was. 

I don't think so.

I saw her as a blank slate finally getting some depth.

 

Now if they'd just tell us what the deal is with Scootaloo...

Actually, now that you mention it, I kinda thought Apple Bloom was more of a blank slate than either of them. Granted, up through Stare Master, they were pretty much all the same character, but after that, Sweetie Belle really started to convey realistic motivations for someone who would actually be as good natured as she was. And Scootaloo definitely seems to have a less confident version of Rainbow Dash's mindset, someone who wants to be the biggest and the baddest, rather than someone who likes to think she already is.

And on the flipside, new characteristics can still be bratty ones. 

I have a segment on my series I call "Viewer Appreciation Corner," where I ask fans to send me their artwork and videos on Friendship is Magic, so I can announce my picks for favorites at the end of every month (one winning artist and one winning video director). I figured I may as well start a forum to make submitting easier, so feel free to post your stuff here if you'd like a well-earned nod. 

Note: Anything can win once, so if your submission isn't chosen the first time you send it in, feel free to try it again.

The first winners were announced at 2:42 of this video, if you'd like an example: 

I don't think she is a "brat" but I do see her growing up at a faster pace. Her voice starts to mature and have less squeak in it if you compare from the older seasons. She's a filly, it's all about growing up and finding her special talent.

Yeah, I did offer her growing up as a possible explanation myself. But if that really is what they had in mind, I think the particular route they chose decreases her likability in a big way (for the moment at least, since her next episode could still take her in a much more appealing direction).

How can anyone not pick The Failure/Success Song? Of all the pointless excuses to sing with pointless non-lyrics, pointlessly attempting to dramatize whatever emotion they wanted to convey and dragging it out until the face-palming stupidity of the whole thing was beyond any...

Erm, yeah, that would probably get my vote.

Welcome to the Brony forums! You may know my by my username on Channel Awesome, which is also Tross. What brings you to our humble neck of the woods? As for the subject at hand, I'm sure I weighed in when you initially posted your vid, but I agree that Sweetiebelle is quite different in this episode than what she used to be. I chalk it up to a change in writers which happens with a series that has multiple writers, especially given that some left after season 2. I am however still looking forward to seeing how Sweetiebelle and other characters are portrayed in season 5. I would hazard a guess that Applebloom's Luna dream episode will pop up in this next season.

Thank you!

Like I said in the video I paired with this, setting up threads here is a great way to make these subjects a two-way street. I'll be looking forward to more of seeing what everyone thinks.

And yeah, that's another very legitimate possibility, that somebody decided they had a "better" vision for Sweetie Belle. That definitely leaves a lot hanging on her episodes next season. (And yeah, I guess if the pattern continues, Apple Bloom's Luna nightmare is due next season.)

I watched your video & you make some good points.  I'm the oldest of 5 kids & this is the way the kids react.  In season 1, IMO the CMCs were 8-12 yeas old.  Now, they are 2 years older & stuff that you used to let go by starts wearing on you. I also think part of the reason SB doesn't like to sing in public is that she feels R is better at it.  (R is manager of Pony Tones & 1 of the singers).

 

Also, IMO, singing is going to be her Cutie Mark & until she can admit that to herself she is NEVER going to get her Cutie Mark.  If she ever writes an autobiography, the part on her childhood is going to be called "Living in the Shadows" (or something along those lines).  It is tough to have "The Golden Girl" as an older sister, everything you do she has done 1st & better.  Season 5 could have an episode or 2 about this.  I also agree, this makes SB a MUCH less likeable character.

 

Maybe Luna taught her a lesson & she can help one of her friends deal w a similar problem.  (As you said, AB looks like a plausible choice) 

Very interesting. It'd be worth exploring if Sweetie Belle thinks Rarity is a better singer (assuming Sleepless in Ponyville wasn't their attempt to kill her voice with puberty), although that would leave the question of why she wanted to do designing instead, even though Rarity is also better at that, much more so. 

On one hand, I do think kids in these types of shows are made a little on the nice side, so we know they're "innocent." But I think the type of quality they gave Sweetie Belle, a genuine, unconcerned goodwill, runs a little deeper than that and, as I've witnessed firsthand, isn't always something you lose just by getting older and less niave. And yeah, with what we got as the alternative, I would have much rather seen them go that route. (Assuming they really did do it on purpose to grow Sweetie Belle up, that is.) But I do kinda like your idea of Luna's influence making her good at dealing with this problem.

And I can also attest as the oldest of four that sometimes kids don't change that much growing up. My siblings were equally as bratty when they hit puberty, no more and no less