One reason why I like My Little Pony FIM - villain redemption arcs.

[Dawnshine Wonder 3,455]

One thing I did like about My Little Pony Friendship is Magic story arcs is the main characters attempts to reform villains, giving them a chance to own up to their mistakes and learn to be better, as what happened with Princess Luna in the first season, and I found Princess Celestia's mercy toward her own sister to be endearing, Celestia could have banished Luna to the moon again if she desired, Nightmare Moon enforcing an eternal night did have destructive implications for their world, but instead she chose to offer Luna a chance to make amends, and she did. If she was never shown mercy, think about it, there would not have been any point in reform. Since Luna's release from banishment in the show, her redemption happened faster than Starlight Glimmer's did from episode to episode, but MLP character Starlight Glimmer receives far more negative feedback in the fandom than Luna does.

My point of this thread, is not to antagonize anyone, I am merely putting out a different perspective even if it is an unpopular opinion, and why the default assumption that there are individuals who are beyond redemption is inherently problematic, not just for story writing but real life as a whole.

 

I can give a real life example where redemption has happened, and it is not solely to do with rehabilitated convicts who became productive members of society or at least less problematic than they were before. An ex hunter turned vegan who stopped trophy hunting, otherwise known as big game hunting, because he regretted animal cruelty and while poaching is illegal in some countries, sometimes people turn away from this cruel and destructive practice for reasons other than fear of legal repercussion, though it is rare, this should tell people something about real life redemption in action. Do you think people like this would have learned kindness, if people told them there was no point in stopping violence because it is how people will always perceive them? while it is easy and convenient for us to write off people as automatically incapable of reform because they did something terrible, while I do sympathize with people who hold that view, more understandable in the case of people who were victims of abuse themselves, I think this assumption that this is always the case, that abusers will always be the way they are, therefore therapy is a "waste of time" does more harm than good. This Former Hunter Is Now a Vegan Activist | LIVEKINDLY

It's almost like encouraging abusers to continue abuse, because this is how society will always think of them. While it is true that some abusers continue manipulating or hurting others no matter what others may think of them, it is not necessarily the case in every situation. I believe the show MLP FIM was driving that point home that we should not give up on others or deny them the capacity for self improvement, just because we don't like them. I stand by that opinion, no matter what point of view others may have about that, that would not change if I were to become a victim of something horrible in future. Stopping the cycle of abuse and hurt should take precedence over the blame game IMO.

 

[Midnight Insight 373]

I want to point out that it's not my intention to offend anypony, neither specifically nor generally. I'm just sharing my opinion, and I'll be glad to hear yours too 

4 hours ago, Dawnshine Wonder said:

Since Luna's release from banishment in the show, her redemption happened faster than Starlight Glimmer's did from episode to episode, but MLP character Starlight Glimmer receives far more negative feedback in the fandom than Luna does.

I think people tend to be more understanding of Luna's redemption than Starlight's because it happens at the start of the show, but in the end, it's all a mater of taste.

4 hours ago, Dawnshine Wonder said:

the default assumption that there are individuals who are beyond redemption is inherently problematic, not just for story writing but real life as a whole.

I'll share my point of view on your idea of a punitive VS reformative penitentiary system (with MLP of course)

I really like how mlp handles Starlight's case: she is not inherently evil, she believes in her system as she thinks it's the most functional way of achieving equality and, therefore, harmony. It's a great example of a case where the reformative system would triumph over the others, as the show suggests.

On the other hand we have Tirek, who is the most straightforward villain of the entire show. He won't change his mind if you try to reform him, nor if you just punish him. He's a lost cause IMO.

Then we have Cozy Glow. She will convince you she has changed, just to stab you in the back. In this case life imprisonment of a punitive system would be better for society than a reformative one.

But when it comes to real life...

There will always be moral dilemmas, no matter what we do. I didn't even mention victim's sense of justice, which I think it's also important. I understand your point: you will never see a change if you don't give it a chance, but I can't completelly agree. In my personal opinion, I draw the line when the crime exceeds material or economic loss, since it wouldn't be fair to the victim otherwise. There are extremely harmful things cannot be forgiven IMHO.

 

It's such a complex topic...

[abronymouse 6,149]

23 hours ago, Dawnshine Wonder said:

I believe the show MLP FIM was driving that point home that we should not give up on others or deny them the capacity for self improvement, just because we don't like them

I love Starlight after the redemption, and I love badass Starlight prior redemption. But I do not love the redemption arc.

I mean... it wasn't an arc, it was more like a right angle  

 "bobbady baddeby I'm a bit villainy"

  "hippity hoppity, now you're a friend'o'me!"

(ok, I know they explain it a bit more in later eps)

23 hours ago, Dawnshine Wonder said:

This Former Hunter Is Now a Vegan Activist | LIVEKINDLY

that's a sweet story  I imagine part of the redemption is that he was always into animals and wildlife, and now sees veganism as part of the love and respect he's always had.

but that connection between who he was and who he is now is what feels like it was missing from Starlight's 'arc' for me... I thought badass evil Starlight did what she did because she has a narrow vision of other ponies. She wanted one friend, and when she lost him she tried to make herself feel better by milking other ponies for affection by manipulating them. Some of the later eps address this, showing us an adorably flustered Starlight who tries to deal with Sunburst, but it wasn't done in the episode itself. Twilight just realised that she was upset over losing Sunburst and then ignored what Starlight had done to get over that. At least when it was magical rainbows achieving the change it was easier to swallow. 

Discord got a whole ep (and a great one at that) for his redemption arc, while Starlight gets a couple of sentences

Quote

Twilight Sparkle: So try again! Make new friends! And if something that you can't control happens that changes things, work through it together! That's what friendship is! And it's not just my friendships that are important to Equestria! Everypony's are! When yours ended, it led us here. But just imagine all the others that are out there waiting for you if you just give them a chance!

I really like this message - I just wanted it to play out. But on a balance of 1) "having an awesome AU episode which revisits loads of storylines" and 2) "giving Starlight a proper redemption arc" I think it's a fair decision to lean on the first option. These lil' eps can't do everything afterall.

Edited February 23 by abronymouse

[Dawnshine Wonder 3,455]

On 2025-02-23 at 12:13 PM, abronymouse said:

Quote

Twilight Sparkle: So try again! Make new friends! And if something that you can't control happens that changes things, work through it together! That's what friendship is! And it's not just my friendships that are important to Equestria! Everypony's are! When yours ended, it led us here. But just imagine all the others that are out there waiting for you if you just give them a chance!

I really like this message - I just wanted it to play out. But on a balance of 1) "having an awesome AU episode which revisits loads of storylines" and 2) "giving Starlight a proper redemption arc" I think it's a fair decision to lean on the first option. These lil' eps can't do everything afterall.

I couldn't bring myself to hate them, though they make mistakes as well, sometimes even ones which could have gone horribly wrong, their ideals of justice and fairness are there. They even accepted that not all Changelings are evil, just because their Queen is cruel. Thorax's rebellion and how Ponies responded to this demonstrated that Ponies do show effort to overcome prejudice.

[Espy 4,723]

On 2025-02-22 at 8:04 AM, Dawnshine Wonder said:

Since Luna's release from banishment in the show, her redemption happened faster than Starlight Glimmer's did from episode to episode, but MLP character Starlight Glimmer receives far more negative feedback in the fandom than Luna does.

Oh yeah, Luna's did happen at the snap of a finger and we didn't get to see her again until her Nightmare Moon episode (basically just her keeping up with the times) and a few other times. Everything else was a small scene or appearance along with maybe one or two dedicated episodes for her and Celestia.

Though concerning the negative feedback with Starlight, I think this has more to do with how the show writers introduced a new "main" character along with how she was redeemed.

Honestly they did shove her in the front over lots of other characters since the show writers deciding that Twilight should take her under her wing. That decision seemed to claw itself deep under people's skins. It seems to be a common thing when a show and the main characters at least are established, then suddenly you gotta tell viewers to focus on a new character and the compromise being to push one of those established characters in the background, people hate it. Tribalism might have a play in it.

I would say she took up "too much" screen time over the Mane Six, but then what about the CMC? Granted they didn't get a redemption arc (I think their purpose was to be more relatable for younger viewers while the Mane Six were the adult role models) but they did get a good chunk of episodes dedicated to following them while the Mane Six made a small appearance at most for those episodes. Yet I don't see much hate or criticism about that. Not to the extent as Starlight anyways. So I consider that a weak argument from the Starlight haters.

None of that is really a huge problem for me though.

 

 

 

But anyways, I guess another interesting example nobody's said yet is with Discord. I think he's a better and slightly more nuanced example of this over Luna, where basically mentioned above they just made her good for the rest of the show after she was defeated as Nightmare Moon in the beginning.

It was actually a very interesting choice to make him a reformed villain considering not just how powerful he is but also how much of a gaslighter and manipulator he is, even more interesting was making Fluttershy be the one to do it. He even was going to cause havoc but wanted to keep Fluttershy as a friend since she was trying to be inclusive for him, so he rolled back on whatever chaos he was causing.  This was all while he was trying to take advantage of her. That happened all in one episode and his change in heart felt very sudden, yet a lot of people love Discord over Starlight regardless. Plus he makes multiple appearances later in the show.

Not to mention that he, for whatever reason, fell for Tirek's trick (or maybe it was intentional, but it seemed like he actually believed Tirek would make him powerful too).

And then later near the end of the show when, as Grogar, he was getting the rest of the villains to mingle (Sombra, Tirek, Cozy Glow, Chrysalis) so Twilight could defeat them all at once to make her feel better and more confident for what she and her friends were doing, but oops the villains used Grogar's bell on him and he lost his powers when he was intending to be a safety net if everything went a bit too far; his intention was good but it was just an awful idea to begin with.

And then he implied that there were more battles or even adventures they did leading up to that moment that might've been him causing them just to boost their confidence levels. It ended up doing the opposite when they learned about it.

Meanwhile, Luna and especially Celestia were about ready to turn him back to stone/imprison him right then and there!

On the other hand, which is the way that I see it, perhaps it's better punishment to just take away his powers because of the situation. After reforming, he wasn't trying to take over Equestria. He was just trying to set up scenarios for the Mane Six (especially Twilight) to help show Celestia that she was capable of being a great leader. Again, heart's in the right place but it's a terrible idea because of how insincere and manipulative it is.

I think it's a good example where someone who's redeemed themselves does something really stupid and in some people's eyes, they haven't changed at all. Though we know that Discord was not trying to put everyone in danger (I mean, literally everyone's life was on the line here), at least two characters were more than angry at him because that's what he ended up doing. Not to mention him still gaslighting and manipulating in the background all the way through until it was almost too late. It's understandable why they were angry at him and wanted to imprison him.

 

 

This is a bit of a tangent but we can compare that to how Celestia was letting the Mane Six (especially Twilight) "prove" themselves. I know some people consider her a bad teacher, but at least she isn't Discord levels of bad. Celestia observed from a distance and let them do their thing. However, if things get WAY out of pocket, she showed that she will step in (she did this during that episode when Twilight forgot about sending a friendship report and tried to fake a friendship problem to "solve", she stepped in to revert what Twilight did). She never made up scenarios for them to deal with to make them feel better about what they were doing like Discord was doing.

[Dawnshine Wonder 3,455]

8 hours ago, Espy Vibe said:

Oh yeah, Luna's did happen at the snap of a finger and we didn't get to see her again until her Nightmare Moon episode (basically just her keeping up with the times) and a few other times. Everything else was a small scene or appearance along with maybe one or two dedicated episodes for her and Celestia.

Though concerning the negative feedback with Starlight, I think this has more to do with how the show writers introduced a new "main" character along with how she was redeemed.

Honestly they did shove her in the front over lots of other characters since the show writers deciding that Twilight should take her under her wing. That decision seemed to claw itself deep under people's skins. It seems to be a common thing when a show and the main characters at least are established, then suddenly you gotta tell viewers to focus on a new character and the compromise being to push one of those established characters in the background, people hate it. Tribalism might have a play in it.

I would say she took up "too much" screen time over the Mane Six, but then what about the CMC? Granted they didn't get a redemption arc (I think their purpose was to be more relatable for younger viewers while the Mane Six were the adult role models) but they did get a good chunk of episodes dedicated to following them while the Mane Six made a small appearance at most for those episodes. Yet I don't see much hate or criticism about that. Not to the extent as Starlight anyways. So I consider that a weak argument from the Starlight haters.

None of that is really a huge problem for me though.

 

 

 

But anyways, I guess another interesting example nobody's said yet is with Discord. I think he's a better and slightly more nuanced example of this over Luna, where basically mentioned above they just made her good for the rest of the show after she was defeated as Nightmare Moon in the beginning.

It was actually a very interesting choice to make him a reformed villain considering not just how powerful he is but also how much of a gaslighter and manipulator he is, even more interesting was making Fluttershy be the one to do it. He even was going to cause havoc but wanted to keep Fluttershy as a friend since she was trying to be inclusive for him, so he rolled back on whatever chaos he was causing.  This was all while he was trying to take advantage of her. That happened all in one episode and his change in heart felt very sudden, yet a lot of people love Discord over Starlight regardless. Plus he makes multiple appearances later in the show.

Not to mention that he, for whatever reason, fell for Tirek's trick (or maybe it was intentional, but it seemed like he actually believed Tirek would make him powerful too).

And then later near the end of the show when, as Grogar, he was getting the rest of the villains to mingle (Sombra, Tirek, Cozy Glow, Chrysalis) so Twilight could defeat them all at once to make her feel better and more confident for what she and her friends were doing, but oops the villains used Grogar's bell on him and he lost his powers when he was intending to be a safety net if everything went a bit too far; his intention was good but it was just an awful idea to begin with.

And then he implied that there were more battles or even adventures they did leading up to that moment that might've been him causing them just to boost their confidence levels. It ended up doing the opposite when they learned about it.

Meanwhile, Luna and especially Celestia were about ready to turn him back to stone/imprison him right then and there!

On the other hand, which is the way that I see it, perhaps it's better punishment to just take away his powers because of the situation. After reforming, he wasn't trying to take over Equestria. He was just trying to set up scenarios for the Mane Six (especially Twilight) to help show Celestia that she was capable of being a great leader. Again, heart's in the right place but it's a terrible idea because of how insincere and manipulative it is.

I think it's a good example where someone who's redeemed themselves does something really stupid and in some people's eyes, they haven't changed at all. Though we know that Discord was not trying to put everyone in danger (I mean, literally everyone's life was on the line here), at least two characters were more than angry at him because that's what he ended up doing. Not to mention him still gaslighting and manipulating in the background all the way through until it was almost too late. It's understandable why they were angry at him and wanted to imprison him.

 

 

This is a bit of a tangent but we can compare that to how Celestia was letting the Mane Six (especially Twilight) "prove" themselves. I know some people consider her a bad teacher, but at least she isn't Discord levels of bad. Celestia observed from a distance and let them do their thing. However, if things get WAY out of pocket, she showed that she will step in (she did this during that episode when Twilight forgot about sending a friendship report and tried to fake a friendship problem to "solve", she stepped in to revert what Twilight did). She never made up scenarios for them to deal with to make them feel better about what they were doing like Discord was doing.

No disagreement there, Discord's so called redemption arc has been poorly written since season 4, where even after befriending Fluttershy, Discord continued to create problems for Mane Six and Equestria as a whole. He betrayed Mane Six to get a false sense of freedom with Tirek, and became so surprised when that blew up in his face.

 

I agree with what you said about Princess Celestia, she trusts in her students, and that's what many fans don't seem to get. She doesn't believe that the powers of the state should do everything for them, if able to, they need to learn how to figure out problems on their own, she offers guidance, yes, but a hallmark of maturity and problem solving comes from independence, and to that end I see where she was coming from. Whether people accept the truth or not, personal responsibility does matter. They're not Celestia's slaves, but Celestia is not their slave either, nor should she be treated like one. When the time comes, and when her subjects come of age, they need to step up and take bold risks to help others in need, similar to risks people take in real life.

Somehow this ethic is lost on fans who are overly harsh in their criticisms about her. I don't believe Celestia is as terrible as others make her out to be, she is flawed and make questionable decisions sometimes, like not properly addressing Princess Luna's mental health problems and feelings of isolation, but at least she is not evil or draconian.

That is something I am going to touch on in my fan fiction about as well. I don't expect everyone to agree with me on this one, however I don't see enough of a reason within MLP verse, at least as far as the show goes, not the comic, to initiate a revolution against her. People are quick to assume violence is the solution when things don't go their way, but it's almost never the right way to go about a problem, and it certainly is not in this case. Some people have claimed a Republic replacing the Monarchy would be better, but Republics are not perfect either, voters can be just as selfish as leaders.

[Ishmael 31]

A little late to this, but just wanted to say thanks for a thoughtful and nuanced discussion about character and motivation. It's a kid's show, but at the same time, MLP:FiM has a level of sophistication and nuance that reaches far beyond a kid's show. It's not perfect--Luna's instant redemption as discussed, and Discord's uneven behavior--but on average the show treats its characters with the same care and respect taken in top-tier adult shows. 

Regarding Celestia, I'd add that she demonstrates the qualities you'd want in a mentor, teacher or therapist. In addition to the excellent points already made, I think it was a wise choice to present her as being a little removed. The show's young audience benefits from the unstated message that the Mane Six they're identifying with, and by extension themselves, are capable of facing crises and solving their own problems. Celestia has genuine affection for Twilight, and in general offers Carl Rodger's "unconditional positive regard" to Twilight and other characters. It's also striking to me how Celestia is shown to have flaws, and can be vulnerable. "A Royal Problem" demonstrates this, and it's easily one of the best episodes. 

[Dawnshine Wonder 3,455]

3 hours ago, Ishmael said:

A little late to this, but just wanted to say thanks for a thoughtful and nuanced discussion about character and motivation. It's a kid's show, but at the same time, MLP:FiM has a level of sophistication and nuance that reaches far beyond a kid's show. It's not perfect--Luna's instant redemption as discussed, and Discord's uneven behavior--but on average the show treats its characters with the same care and respect taken in top-tier adult shows. 

Regarding Celestia, I'd add that she demonstrates the qualities you'd want in a mentor, teacher or therapist. In addition to the excellent points already made, I think it was a wise choice to present her as being a little removed. The show's young audience benefits from the unstated message that the Mane Six they're identifying with, and by extension themselves, are capable of facing crises and solving their own problems. Celestia has genuine affection for Twilight, and in general offers Carl Rodger's "unconditional positive regard" to Twilight and other characters. It's also striking to me how Celestia is shown to have flaws, and can be vulnerable. "A Royal Problem" demonstrates this, and it's easily one of the best episodes. 

I know my previous post is old and by extension so is the show it's about.

However I wished to say thank you. It may not be a popular opinion, I realize that, some people do not like Princess Celestia, me and some of our friends do.

Want to know something hilarious? I don't know how Celestia can eat all them cakes and not become overweight, high metabolism maybe? but that's the least of her worries considering the threats Equestria faced from time to time. I admired Celestia's bravery in taking on Queen Chrysalis in A Canterlot Wedding, like she did not attempt to use any other Pony to shield herself, she took it upon herself to defend her kingdom, even if it meant making the ultimate sacrifice, thankfully she did not die, but she could have done and she was aware of that, heroic royalty is the best royalty in my opinion.

As for her love for high calorie foods, I find that humorous, I wonder if she likes jam on toast? you know a lot of fans claim Princess Celestia is lazy, but she is clearly burning up her energy from some activity if she never becomes obese from all that food she eats. 

[Ishmael 31]

As most of the Equestrian diet seems to be pie/cake/chocolate/ice cream, it seems like everybody can handle titanic amounts of sugar.

The writers were smart to have Celestia confronting serious problems more or less on her own. She does seem a little blind to some of her faults or those of others, but I can't think of an instance where she doesn't come around. This is the through-line of "A Royal Problem", and that episode is interesting as it shows how both Celestia and Luna have serious blind spots, but both are mature enough to correct them when Starlight forcibly lifts the veil for them both. 

What's really interesting to me in this episode is when Celestia faces her alter-ego. Daybreaker makes clear she's a projection of Celestia's subconscious fears that she's not the princess everybody values: "I'm the smarter, prettier, and more powerful version of you," or words to that effect. Oliver's delivery captures the perfect amount of sneering and dark glee of your outwardly projected subconscious fears and lusts. Even more powerful is the deeply repressed negative feelings Celestia must have about Luna, given Daybreaker's uninhibited regret that she didn't destroy Luna/Nightmare Moon when *Celestia* had the chance. 

It's strange to me that people don't like Celestia for her supposed flaws and poor judgments. It's faults and imperfections that make characters interesting, and create conflicts that require growth and change. An hour talking with Celestia would be *very* interesting.

Since I'm psychoanalyzing an episode of a kid's show, I got some big, knowing laughs at Starlight playing therapist. She's collected and aware enough to recognize Twilight is biased when it comes to Celestia, and tells Twilight this in a very-therapist way. Starlight also uses classic active listening technique in the second breakfast confrontation, which Starlight more or less instigates. "Celestia, how does it make you feel when Luna..." and "Princess Luna, tell Celestia how it makes you feel when..." is a technique counselors used on me! It's a valuable skill not everybody learns growing up. And it's very uncomfortable. I really felt Celestia and Luna squirming, and could relate to their lashing out at each other immediately after.