Blue pill vs red pill - The Matrix

[Dawnshine Wonder 1,633]

Which would you choose, a computer generated simulation of your own dream world which you can share with friends who consented to it, or a world ruined by machines?

Also, as the question about The Matrix implies, AI life forms would be sentient within the simulated environment and take on the form of life in whatever fantasy world was created for them, be they animal with a brain, or certain kinds of robots. It is whatever fantasy world you desire it to be, and the world continues to exist so long as the hardware that supports it does. In this hypothetical situation, the hardware is capable of self maintenance and repair at the molecular level, making it very difficult for it to fall apart simply by aging of the system, as long as it has a power source and a way to recycle materials, it'll sustain itself, but then this gets into scifi territory and not what exists in the real world. The system would be limited only by the physics of the simulation, the simulated environments themselves would have rules like a society with laws that prohibit anyone to harm or abuse sentient programs within the system, breaking laws for example could get you arrested the same as in the real world, enforcing rule of law. You could be a knight that works for a medieval King or Queen in an ancient time period, but breaking their laws, like poisoning one of their guests, could get you sent to a dungeon. Choose wisely.

 

 

Edited April 18 by Dawnshine Wonder
Giving specifics on what the simulation is about.

[ZiggWheelsManning 11,865]

Spoiler

Did the movie ever indicate which pill the main character took?  

Is anyone in the Tool band a fan of this movie?  

[Raskolnikov 135]

Isn't this just the plot of SOMA? :3

 

Does the 'rule of law' include a recreation of the current penal system then? Because I find the prison system inherently cruel and unethical and if the simulation just recreates our current systems legally then I'm taking the blue pill because either way with abuse built into the system we'll end up exactly where we started like the 'real' world soon enough anyway and it's not as escapist as it sounds if it leaks these kinds if systems into it. Otherwise I may consider the red pill... or maybe not. I don't know how I feel about the concept of indefinite lifespans and that could pose its own problems down the line. So ultimately I don't really know what I'd pick.

Truthfully I'm not sure human definitions of 'real' VS 'simulated' are even realistic and not simply biased to the limitations of the human experience of seeing the world because it requires defining reality VS the artificial - is the simulation not a part of overall reality? And if so doesn't that make it 'real'? Certainly we have lifeforms that may not be conscious the way we see it but they are nevertheless alive within our world's rules of physics. Would a 'simulated' lifeform also not be conforming to the laws of physics of the simulation? It may not be functioning the same way the 'real' world would work but who is even to say our world isn't a simulation? How would we know when we are limited by our human perspectives? To us it would be 'real'. Our senses are fallible and not some objective judge of reality.

But this is just getting a liiiittle carried away into philosophy and science and not directly relevant to the question, but it's fun to think about. :p

If I sound like I'm assuming the robot world is our world it may be because I'm already expecting it to go that direction but it wasn't the intent LOL

Edited April 19 by Raskolnikov

[Dawnshine Wonder 1,633]

3 hours ago, Raskolnikov said:

Isn't this just the plot of SOMA? :3

 

Does the 'rule of law' include a recreation of the current penal system then? Because I find the prison system inherently cruel and unethical and if the simulation just recreates our current systems legally then I'm taking the blue pill because either way with abuse built into the system we'll end up exactly where we started like the 'real' world soon enough anyway and it's not as escapist as it sounds if it leaks these kinds if systems into it. Otherwise I may consider the red pill... or maybe not. I don't know how I feel about the concept of indefinite lifespans and that could pose its own problems down the line. So ultimately I don't really know what I'd pick.

Truthfully I'm not sure human definitions of 'real' VS 'simulated' are even realistic and not simply biased to the limitations of the human experience of seeing the world because it requires defining reality VS the artificial - is the simulation not a part of overall reality? And if so doesn't that make it 'real'? Certainly we have lifeforms that may not be conscious the way we see it but they are nevertheless alive within our world's rules of physics. Would a 'simulated' lifeform also not be conforming to the laws of physics of the simulation? It may not be functioning the same way the 'real' world would work but who is even to say our world isn't a simulation? How would we know when we are limited by our human perspectives? To us it would be 'real'. Our senses are fallible and not some objective judge of reality.

But this is just getting a liiiittle carried away into philosophy and science and not directly relevant to the question, but it's fun to think about. :p

If I sound like I'm assuming the robot world is our world it may be because I'm already expecting it to go that direction but it wasn't the intent LOL

This gets into the philosophical debate about what is reality, Morpheus explained as much in the Matrix film, I know it's only scfi however it is also a thought provoking matter.

If people define what is real by what they can experience with their human senses, then it is simply a matter of electrical signals interpreted by the brain.

VR as depicted in scifi, blurs the line between illusion and reality, because while the virtual world does not operate at the physical level as we know it, if you were trapped within this simulation, how would you be able to tell the difference? imagine if you were kidnapped, and then made a test subject within a VR world, you wake up in this simulated world that looks, feels, tastes, smells and sounds just as real as the one you grew up in, but you were never told about what happened, all of a sudden, this strange environment becomes your "new reality".

I'm not making an argument for or against simulation hypothesis actually existing in the real world as we do not have sufficient evidence to determine one way or another, this is merely a philosophical discussion of what it would mean to be in a simulation, is it right or wrong, how much of a mind bender the concept truly is.

[abronymouse 6,133]

gotta be blue pill, for me. It's like Agent Smith said, happy Matrix sounds terrible. Where's all the drama!? 

Edited April 19 by abronymouse

[Dawnshine Wonder 1,633]

24 minutes ago, abronymouse said:

gotta be blue pill, for me. It's like Agent Smith said, happy Matrix sounds terrible. Where's all the drama!? 

Ergo, paradise is subjective.

Some people may tolerate living in that VR simulation, but for others it may do their heads in after a while.

but if you wanted drama, you could opt for a fantasy world where you were a superhero.

Some people prefer solitude, or more peaceful settings. Given the two options above though I'd red pill, because being stuck in a world of oppression by machines is not something I could live with long term. In Terminator films they actually kept humans as slaves, and to that I'd definitely say no. A more peaceful existence may result in some boredom, but at least you have liberty.

Drama does give people something to work for, but if that drama comes in the form of never ending suffering until death like slavery and holocausts, that is not a desirable existence IMO.

[SharpWit 2,776]

Firstly, the question here is not the same as that of the matrix. Here we are offered a world at our whim. If it fails to satisfy, that is merely user error.

Also, the pill colors for the "similar" scenarios are switched from the originals.

Second, forget about reality. The point of taking the pills, is to make the first real decision of your life, but that's only on paper,,,on screen?

Spoiler

For the record, I love these films.

But there's some major issues with the line of reasoning behind Neo/Our actions in this.

We are being offered what we think is a chance to break free from a montonaneous life where we've grown tired of being told what to do, feeling as though everything is out of our control to a point venturing on paranoia. This offer is being made by a group leader who stresses our importance to them, while maintaining an aura of mystery, building up an us versus them mentality, and going along with our perspective of there being something wrong with the world, while claiming that they're there to help. Someone who speaks to you this way, is not your friend. They have an agenda.

The only reason this is turned about, is because Agent Smith takes things too far prior to your meeting. Had your body not been modified, violated, and implanted with a tracking device running on nightmare fuel during your interrogation, you'd still be following the advice/instructions of someone using positive reinforcement as manipulation, under the guise of shared ideals. You'd have still been picked up by his varingly though similarly dressed supporters, who are armed.

You finally meet this guy, who remains as vague as ever, while reassuring you at every opportunity that you're on the same side. Finally he offers you "knowledge" in the form of pills. You haven't found salvation, you've been inducted into a cult or given the illegal nature if this group's actions, a terrorist group.

Taking Agent Smith's tactics out of the equation, and reminding ourselves that we don't know we're living in a simulation set up with this future AI dystopia, then we find ourselves falling for red flag, after red flag.

This doesn't really matter because this is the matrix, and not the question posed to us. I wanted to share this breakdown of events though, to illustrate my next point.

Choice is an illusion. We are bound by a variety of systems with many functions. Anywhere from defending bodily autonomy, maintaining order, keeping those in power from losing it, maintaining relationships, etc. All occurring simultaneously whether it be to our betterment or detriment. Your choices are never truly free to make because there will always be consequences. This isn't necessarily a bad thing. That's simply the cost for being part of a society, and the securities that come with it. That's why choice is an illusion.

Morpheus offers a choice, but only after a considerable amount of effort in influencing our decision while pretending not to. And if we make that "choice", we're not any more free. We know the truth, but now we must work equally as hard, if not harder, to survive the hellscape that is the real world. We become a slave to the resistance, or we fight for our sole survival, which is guaranteed to end poorly.

In this topic's option, Morpheus may not be a part of the question, but the struggles that his world comes with absolutely are. When picking between that or something of your making, not even the machines', there's only one clear answer.

[Dawnshine Wonder 1,633]

18 hours ago, SharpWit said:

Second, forget about reality. The point of taking the pills, is to make the first real decision of your life, but that's only on paper,,,on screen?

Morpheus explicitly stated the choice was between Wonderland and the Real World, he gave Neo the choice whether to wake up into the real world, or remain in the computer simulation and Morpheus shows him how messed up the system actually is, but this only applies to this specific simulation in the movie. They did not get into the illusion of choice until later on in the movie, and Morpheus was not the one who claimed choice was an illusion, another character said this to him.

I purposefully altered the hypothetical situation a bit to ask people which would they pick, a simulated environment based on their own fantasy, or reality. In theory there is no reason why such a simulation could not be created if the technology were available, and it is not, real computer hardware is nowhere near powerful enough to create such a world, let alone the other issue of uploading a person's brain into it, which also does not exist in reality.

Some people may pick wonderland, or they may pick the harshness of the dystopian world with the false belief they could win the war, either way, both decisions have consequences and gotchas, people may choose the world of illusion, but in so doing, they become a "slave to the system" that they cannot escape from, it might seem pleasing on surface level, but actually being there would come with risks, hazards and unexpected outcomes.

[Midnight Insight 180]

I'm more afraid of suffering than of death, so I would choose to live in my own fantasy world where I know I would never suffer and where I can control how long I can live. Experiencing war in real life terrifies me and I wouldn't hold on for too long in such a hard situation... Too much suffering.

Going back to the simulation: the only thing that bugs me is that I don't know why I'm kept alive to stay in that simulation; what do "they" gain keeping me like that? It feels like someone literally gave me heaven, but called it simulation.

[Dawnshine Wonder 1,633]

19 minutes ago, Midnight Insight said:

I'm more afraid of suffering than of death, so I would choose to live in my own fantasy world where I know I would never suffer and where I can control how long I can live. Experiencing war in real life terrifies me and I wouldn't hold on for too long in such a hard situation... Too much suffering.

Going back to the simulation: the only thing that bugs me is that I don't know why I'm kept alive to stay in that simulation; what do "they" gain keeping me like that? It feels like someone literally gave me heaven, but called it simulation.

Me too, a dystopian world would be too much for me

Yeah a heaven-like dimension is allowed in this Q&A of a hypothetical simulated VR world, in that case you would not have war, disease and famine to worry about, and it would come with minimal risks or unexpected drawbacks.

 

[SharpWit 2,776]

20 hours ago, Dawnshine Wonder said:

Morpheus explicitly stated the choice was between Wonderland and the Real World, he gave Neo the choice whether to wake up into the real world, or remain in the computer simulation

He also said, unfortunately no one can be told what the matrix is, you have to see it for yourself. Perhaps the scale of the matrix is beyond most people's comprehension, but we all get the general idea and can infer from there. Morpheus doesn't even try to explain what the real world is like, all while pushing Neo towards it. We're not allowed to make a reasonable decision because crucial information is being actively withheld from us.

20 hours ago, Dawnshine Wonder said:

people may choose the world of illusion, but in so doing, they become a "slave to the system" that they cannot escape from, it might seem pleasing on surface level, but actually being there would come with risks, hazards and unexpected outcomes.

"you exist in a computer generated world of your own dreams forever"

These aren't compatible. I would only be a slave to the limits of my imagination, and an illusion requires that I'm out of the know, which I shouldn't be in this scenario.

What risks and hazards are present in the world of my making, and how?

[Dawnshine Wonder 1,633]

6 minutes ago, SharpWit said:

"you exist in a computer generated world of your own dreams forever"

These aren't compatible. I would only be a slave to the limits of my imagination, and an illusion requires that I'm out of the know, which I shouldn't be in this scenario.

What risks and hazards are present in the world of my making, and how?

It wholly depends on what world is being created

even a computer generated world based on your own fantasy would be dependent on your imagination that went into making it, whatever it may be, and human decision making is not perfect, mistakes happen.

What if the computer generated world involved you being in a world where you were a superhero like from Marvel or DC? let us ignore the copyright implications in this hypothetical situation for a moment and discuss what would happen if you could exist in such a world, you would then have to deal with the same risks and tragedies that those characters do, including villains killing loved one's.

Sure, you could still have an "afterlife" system in the VR world to backup the conscious mind of individuals so that they were not erased from the simulation, but that does not change the fact that hardships will be felt.