TL;DR: Superman roflstomps because of America-writerhax; the only versions that would be able to be beaten by End of Z Goku would be DCAU Superman, Golden Age, Animated Versions (except All-stars), POSSIBLY The New 52 Superman(will discuss) and the Movie Versions of Superman

 

(Pre-script: I will be revising this version and coming out with a new one shortly)

 

Dear Reader,

 

This has been plaguing my mind for the longest time. Personally--I am a huge fan of anime, one of which was Dragonball/Z--I have grown up watching it, and find that Goku is one of my favorite Super Heroes of all time. If I had to list my favorite heroes:

1. Goku

2. Gohan

3. Batman

4. Wolverine

5. Spiderman

 

Now, why is it that I rage out at Superman/Goku fights? Because I've noticed the majority of people who argue in this either go with "LOL SUPERMAN IS GAY" or "GOKU'S WEAK!" Which, personally--I agree with both of those statements. I hate Superman, and in comparison to Superman, Goku is weak; however, as you will go to notice, this thread will be VERY long. IF you wish to continue onto this topic, I will be more than happy to discuss any theory you may have to try and have Goku win--since I do want that. But I've looked at everything.

STRENGTH

First and foremost the following argument is invalid and I will go to prove it:

Superman peaks his lift around 100 tons

100 tons = 100,000 kg = 220,462.262 lbs

An average person can lift 40% of their weight

An average person weighs 80kg, 40% of that is 32kg

100,000/32 = 3125, meaning superman can lift 3125 times the average man

Now, remember when Raditz scanned a human and his power level was 5?

Well, Superman's PL is 3125x5, which is 15625

Goku, when training with King Kai, reached 16000PL using kaioken2x

When using kaioken4x, he reached around 40k

Goku wins. Science proves it.

If this is true, then, the following scans are inaccurate

 

 

 

Going on--Superman doesn't say his weight limit is 100tons.

 

Science may "prove" that--however if that is the case then it is very inconsistent. And therefore we cannot use that "Science" to prove anything. In raw strength, though, Goku is at a disadvantage for the mere fact that Superman has many different feats.

 

 

 

 

Based on speculation and feats I would say that the feats of Superman clearly put Goku in over his head. We'll use Goku at the end of Z with his SSJ2, because SSJ3 is too much of a strain--and even with the SSJ3 I'll suggest why Goku wouldn't be able to beat Superman.

 

Post-crisis Superman is shown to be holding a miniature black hole--which if you know the MINIMUM mass for a black hole is Planck's Mass but the catcher is that the hole must concentrate mass or energy so that the escape velocity from the region in which it is concentrated exceeds the speed of light. To do so you need Schwarzschild's Radius R=2GM/c^2 (G is the gravitational constant; c is the speed of light; M is the mass of the black hole).

 

 

It is true that we do not know the mass of the black hole but we can assume that it pushes Superman to his limit. He is shown next overpowering Warworld

 

 

And he has also absorbed Meggedon's Warhead energy which could take out half a galaxy.

 

 

 

Now--why would I suggest that Post Crisis is still stronger even if Ki has a large influence in the DB-verse? Because of these feats in and of themselves put him on par with the DBZ-bad-boys. As for strength feats of Cell. Cell states that he has the ability to destroy the solar system.

 

 

 

Chapter: 415 (DBZ 221), P3.2, P4.2 (Herm's translation, preferable over VIZ's translation)

Context: while charging the Kamehameha

Cell: “I’ve already gathered enough ki power to blow away not only the Earth, but the solar system as well!”

 

 

He has the ability TO destroy a Solar System--I will agree with this to a point; however NO character in the series has an attack with the blast diameter large enough to destroy a solar system in one blast, based on the size of the Final Flash, the Solar Kamehameha, Gohan's Kamehameha and Goku's Spirit Bomb (Final). If I had to be completely honest, I think Cell believes he can blow the solar system up--just as there is a scan of Burter saying he can move faster than the speed of light--and when he says he is the fastest in the universe, he means "fastest excluding Frieza, and people stronger than me."

 

 

 

 

 

Chapter: 273 (DBZ 79), P5.1

Context: Vegeta tried to throw a dragonball so far away that the Ginyu Special-Squad wouldn’t be able to find it, but Burter caught it.

Ginyu: “Ahhh, I get it… Throw them so far that we won’t be able to get them, eh? Too bad Burta here is the fastest in the universe!”--

 

Chapter: 282 (DBZ 88), P2.3,

Burta: “W-when did you…get behind me?! I’m the fastest in the universe…”

Goku: “Well then, you’d be the second fastest in the universe, wouldn’tcha?”

 

 

 

- The scan was editted so it is not official.

 

Personally I think Cell would be surprised if he shot the beam--and it didn't destroy the solar system. If all the planets were aligned properly--I think he would be able to wipe the solar system out--maybe if he was able to destroy the sun with a blast. So--I will concede that Cell has the ability to possibly destroy the sun.

 

So--power wise, yes--he would be able to destroy planets themselves--but not the whole solar system due to the diameter of the attack. If we want to go more in depth--and you want to use the canon-DBZ you can use Kid Buu going from planet to planet destroying each of them. By the Manga, Goku and Buu are no where near Solar System/Galaxy Busters.

 

In the anime, non-canon even, Broly--in the English version--"destroyed" a galaxy, but Goku went to said galaxy and was standing on one of the planets. So it goes to show the error in the American translations. In the initial Japanese dub--narrator says that the Southern Galaxy is being attacked by a Super Saiyan. And that's why Goku goes to the Southern Galaxy, to check it out. In terms of feats Anime Movie DBZ >> Anime DBZ >>> Manga DBZ.

 

Now an argument of "He doesn't show it therefore he can't do it" is logical for those who like Superman to use, but the argument stands as it's just stated; we cannot PROVE that Cell can destroy a Solar System so we have to go based on an enemy who claimed he was "perfect" and still could lose. On the same scale, we see that Frieza says he can destroy Namek--yet when he uses his attack Namek stands.

 

Chapter: 320 (DBZ 126), P9.2

Context: after it turns out Planet Namek didn’t blow up

Freeza: “Chih…! Did I suppress my power too much…?!”

Goku: “It’s because you were afraid of getting caught up in the planet’s explosion yourself…You screwed up. Though thanks to that, I survived…”

 

Now--Goku says it's because Frieza was afraid of getting caught up in the explosion but Frieza clearly states that he can survive in space--and seeing that at LESS than 50% of Frieza's health he was able to survive the planet's explosion he had nothing to be afraid of. He held back his ki; however when it shows Planet Vegeta being destroyed by Frieza first form--it is completely overtaken. I don't doubt planet busters in the DB-verse. I believe that Frieza thought he could destroy the planet--just as I believe Cell believes he can destroy the solar system, just as I believe Burter thinks he's the fastest in the universe.

 

What makes me suggest that Cell wasn't a Solar System buster? The fact that Buu had skills similar to Cell's but was CLEARLY much more powerful. He had to go from planet to planet to destroy a galaxy. The characters in DBZ are eventual galaxy destroyers--in the sense that they are able to conquer and destroy a galaxy with ease, yes--but not one-shotting.

 

- This is just an Example when it comes to Mephisto vs. Galactus

 

- Even just by pure boasting this would prove more and if we continue on

 

- This is between Dr. Fate and Spectre.

 

If we are going by the anime, for Buu we can suggest two things; he is a universe destroyer (he can cause a rip in dimensions and cause the universe to be destroyed by people coming THROUGH other dimensions) and kid buu is a galaxy destroyer (not buster).

 

Kid Buu going planet to planet destroying each of them

 

- Dende expressing Anime Super Buu could destroy the multiverse with the dimensional rip he'd cause

 

 

Now--the reason I suggest that Superman is stronger than Goku isn't because the DBZ-verse is wrought with weak people. On the contrary, the anime suggests many inconsistencies, and English dub translations do the same. On another note--Anime Goku is stronger than Manga Goku--just as Comic Superman (except Golden Age) is stronger than Cartoon/movie Superman.

 

I suggest Superman is stronger because of the feats that are expressed showing Superman's strength. From Pre-crisis, to post-crisis. Even the new 52 shows his strength feats more. I will express that Goku doesn't NEED to express his strength--but the feats of power are shown in planet busting from a few characters. Later it is shown--as I suggested earlier--that Physical strength is NOT something that the characters in DBZ have. Goku is shown lifting 40 tons, easily after transforming Super Saiyan--but before that he had a hard time. Then you have the Z Sword which Gohan lifts--he has trouble lifting the sword and using it and we have no way of seeing how much it weighs since Gohan in his Great Saiyaman outfit is able to easily lift a plane the size of a Boeing 747 where Goku has a hard time training with 40 tons. The inconsistencies are present in Superman, as well, but moreso in DBZ. Sometimes Goku seems to have lifting power--sometimes he doesn't. Piccolo and Goku in a filler had a hard time keeping a Bus in the air--but it could be to create drama. Goku and Piccolo are much stronger than that, and they can destroy the bus if they wanted, easily--but lifting power is something that seems to be inconsistent in DBZ.

SPEED

First I want to express that the idea of moving faster than the speed of light is completely ridiculous--and whenever I hear Flash, Superman etc. saying they are going faster than the speed of light--it makes me rage just on the basis of the Theory of Relativity. Short bursts would mean nothing (in the long run) but travelling hours, days et cetera--FTL characters would age and time on Earth, or wherever, would seem longer than what they felt. If they were gone for a day travelling light speed--it may have been weeks on Earth.

 

Combat speed and travel speed can be different, such that Goku could move light speed theoretically in combat, but not in his travelling speed; however, with previous versions of Superman we have seen that he can move short, and long distances at light speed--to the point where one of his favorite things to do was to speed blitz--and I do believe that the heroes of DBZ can move at fast speeds. The problem with the American Manga is that it is VIZ who does it--their translation is off. So if you want to go with two(three) versions of Goku; one version is the Anime(dub)with all movies, the Anime without movies, and the manga (canon) we can do this:

 

Canon Manga DBZ has no true FTL(faster than light) feats expressed. The only one that is expressed in the Viz version is Burter and there are better versions out there. Though--the FTL feat of Burter is not expressed in the manga just the dub version (as shown earlier).

Actual Translation:

 

Chapter: 282 (DBZ 88), P2.3, P3.1

Burta: “W-when did you…Get behind me?! I’m the fastest in the universe…”

Goku: “Well then, you’d be the second fastest in the universe, wouldn’tcha?”

 

 

If anything he's moving mach speeds. Personally I would like to assume they can move FTL for combat speed--so we will suggest that NON-canon anime DBZ have FTL implications. Why do I say this? Because all of the English dubbing states "Faster than light" since Raditz, where the initial Japanese Manga/anime do not imply that. So for Americans' sake yes there are characters who are FTL. If you can travel at light speed--can you combat at light speed? Superman's speed blitzing certainly suggests so.

 

Even though Combat Speed and travelling speed are different. We'll have to use these next few feats for our only argument on their travel speed.

 

Gohan's house from Orange Star High School is 1000km even with his 7 year slack after Cell I don't think that his speed would have degenerated THAT much in comparison on the basis that "Goku can move light speed in the Frieza Saga"--Gohan at that time in the Buu series would have been able to go FTL even in his base form. Gohan suggests that he can go from his house, to his school in 20 minutes. He IS in his Great Saiyaman outfit, so he could just be showing off, but it is hard to tell.

 

Now, the NEXT idea would come from Goku and Snake Way the length was 1,005,840km--it's 625,000miles. Goku ran that in two days. IF Goku was able to move even close to light speed (Since at that point he was STRONGER than Raditz and the DBZ Logic is "If A > B > C" then "A > C" so since--theoretically--Raditz could move at light speed Goku should be able to as well, at this point. IF he was able to move light speed--he would have been able to be back at Earth's doorstep, essentially, well before two days--by the logic assumed in the fictional world.

 

Now--we then go to Gotenks on Earth, since that is the only other time we see a Speed Feat. We then see that he was SSJ flying around the world--multiple times, stopped to take a 20 minute nap. It was said that he flew around 9 times. He then immediately after Piccolo finds him, he runs out of his time for the fusion. In that time--he flew around the world 9 times in 10 minutes, and napped for 20 minutes. Not light speed. The actual statement is:

 

 

 

Chapter: 482 (DBZ 288), P9.3-8

Gotenks: “You’re slow. So you finally got here? Besides circling around the Earth several times, I even took a little afternoon nap. Fuffuffuh…So you can’t tell just from my speed just now? My super-duper incredible power…! …Which is to say that the test is over, and I’m going to go take care of that annoying Majin Boo right away…”

*Gotenks takes off*

Piccolo: “H-hey, you idiot! Kuh…! Wh-what a shithead…H-he already has only 1 minute left that he can stay merged. That dimwhit…!”

 

The image is clearly Gotenks flying around nine times but again--it is unclear how fast he did it but "multiple times" in minutes, having nap time and then flying to buu's only to run out of fusion within the last minute--is all indicative that Gotenks could not fly light speed.

 

 

Why don't I think Gotenks is FTL?

 

Diameter of earth: ~8,000 miles.

Diameter of Gotenks' circles: ~24,000 miles.

Circumference of circle: 75,360 miles.

Total distance of trip: 376,800 miles.

Duration of trip: ~3 minutes. (The maximum someone (untrained, or under special circumstances) can hold their breath)

Speed: 2,093 miles per second (Not the speed of light)

 

ALSO--if he was going FTL, there wouldn't be a light behind him. This was after Piccolo told him "Show me" and he flew around the world and took a nap.

 

For speed feats of Current Superman (not The New 52 version) we see that he is able to put his arm through Cyborg Superman, vibrate his arm and shatter him. He has been seen to vibrate his body so fast that he appears invisible. When I say Post-Crisis superman that even includes "Modern Superman" and not just Byrne's Superman. Byrne's Superman was nerfed in the sense that he could no longer move planets, but he was still nigh indestructible. On top of this--we have seen Superman dive into the sun to gain strength. If we want to go on the basis of EVERY Superman:

 

Prime One million (Essentially; think God)

 

Prime (Evil)

 

Silver Age (Sneezed galaxy out of existence; and his feats overall are ridiculous, they include planet pulling, accidental time travel (being punched into the past flying back to present))

 

All Star (Quoted at lifting 200quintillion tons; but other than that, people surmise that Current Age is still better All-star, however there are reasons why All-Star would be well above]Current Age (Byrne's whose Superman wasn't overpowered but was still strong in comparison to the average human/martian)

 

With Superman's Current Age he would PROBABLY be up to Goku(Namek--SSJ) and possibly SSJ2 Goku (beginning of Buu) just on the basis of All Star Superman can lift up to 200quintillion tons (well over Goku's limit suggested at 40 tons in the other world prior to SSJ power up) and Current Superman >>>> All Star Superman based on feats and overall abilities; and other than that, his durability can rival SSJ2 Goku based on the idea that he can survive two planets colliding. So, if you want to go from there and go up to SSJ3 Goku--I would suggest that possibly the Current Age Superman's strength would be more than satisfactory, but his combat feats are little in comparison to Goku's. I do suppose that All-star Superman would easily be able to take SSJ3 Goku on the basis that he has more combat feats that express how strong he is.

 

My supposition that Current Superman (New Earth) could beat Goku comes from the idea that his speed, and strength should overall be more than enough. His laser vision/heat vision is able to create a blast radius the size of Goku's Kamehameha wave

 

 

That may be subjective but based on the size of Cell's Kamehameha and Goku's later Kamehameha wave--this would be a good basis to assume the two are similar. ALSO on the basis that his Heat Vision can cover a whole planet from 200,000 miles away:

 

 

DURABILITY

 

Goku's durability comes into question a bit because of how he bleeds regularly. Through punches, and being knocked through mountains. Does he lose control of his ki when he gets knocked back? IF so how does he stay Super Saiyan? Let's assume that he loses control of his Ki and gets knocked into a mountain and bleeds. Then it can be surmised that Superman has more durability in this case due to the fact that he has..

 

Taken a blast equal to one million nuclear blasts

 

 

- He is still alive but he is feeling very weak. Obviously from the sun he would heal.

 

Survived a Supernova, just unconscious

 

 

Goku has great stamina in the sense that he does not heal up like Superman so his Stamina may be better than Superman's, overall--but the fact that Superman is nigh invincible puts Goku at a disadvantage. And on the last note--Superman, if for whatever reason he cannot take Goku, can Sundip--meaning. He dives into the sun, whether it's for seconds, or minutes, and come out stronger than before.

--

 

If I had to line them up in fair fights:

 

Goku (End of Dragonball) vs. Golden Age Superman - the reason this fits is because of Feats. Goku and G.A. Superman are equivalent at this stage, though Superman can "lift" heavy objects he has hardly any combat experience, and Goku rarely uses Ki in the same sense that he would later in the series--so it is pretty evenly matched. Goku could use his Kamehameha and his After Image to do some good work on him.

 

Goku (End of Cell/Beginning of Buu) vs. New Earth (Current) Superman - Superman still has hardly any Combat feats, and is just pure strength at this point--but because of his durability it should give him an edge against Goku over-all. Feats seem to trump "raw power" in DBZ, I think. With the idea that this Superman can close rips in reality it would leave him able to close the rips that SSJ3 Goku may cause (as suggested by others, SSJ3 Gotenks feat and Super Buu feat).

 

Goku (End of Z) vs. New Earth (Current) Superman OR All-star Superman [hard to tell at this point] - Over all, All-star would be too much of a challenge, his feats put him over the edge at least to GT Goku, probably half-way no joke--and at the end he would probably be able to take Goku full SSJ4 with his abilities.

 

Goku (End of GT, no Dragonballs) vs All-star Superman - Again--based on All-Star Superman feats, his strength is suggested to be above Current Superman since he is "Pre-crisis Superman" told in a modern setting. Difference is Pre-crisis is still more powerful, but is highly susceptible to his weakness, whereas All-Star has no/limited weakness.

 

Goku (End of GT Dragonballs) vs. Superman Prime 1 million - We cannot suppose what Goku can do until we see him out of the balls doing whatever. And Superman 1mil is a god--and supposed to practically live til the end of time. His feats are almost non-existent but his strength and abilities are noted. Essentially he has the power of a cosmic being. If we see GokuShenron we would need to see lots of feats to prove that he could stand up--and if his feats surpass Superman Prime 1mil, then it would be enough--otherwise most people in these fights go off of feats

 

Sincerely,

#1 Flutterfan