Fantasy vs real life, why sometimes it is a good thing some things are not real.

[Dawnshine Wonder 1,320]

Reminiscing on the BFG movie by Roald Dahl, it makes you consider yourself fortunate that dangerous life forms from fantasy worlds cannot just leap out of that realm to hurt us in real life. A be careful for what you wish for moment. Yes, fantasy creatures might seem cool by watching them on animation, but wishing for their existence even though you know that it's impossible, well a movie like that gives you pause about it. I have the same feeling toward Flight of Dragons movie. You wouldn't want Ommadon to attempt to use real life politicians to cause a war, would you? I am pretty sure nobody in our world would want human eating giants from the BFG movie to actually hurt us, either, and thank goodness they are non existent.

 

Kind of makes me feel awkward about My Little Pony FIM fan fiction sometimes too. I mean, the souls reincarnation thing, is basically a fantasy of more potential victims for a Changeling Queen in various different timelines. But it is not like the real world does not have any dangerous predators either, from big cats like Cougars and Jaguars, to carnivorous reptiles like crocodiles and alligators. And although weapons keep humans reasonably well guarded from creatures like that, other humans are still a problem because of our species tendency for conflict and violence, not all humans are criminal, but honestly the state of our world is not very good.

[SharpWit 2,769]

I almost want to counter, because I think humans are the real things going bump in the night. The reason that there isn't so much variety or quantity in the things that can eat us, is because we made it that way. We are our own worst enemy because we're about all that's left in sufficient numbers. Some may fear the presence of another monster, but some are more afraid of the loneliness that comes with having no one to play with.

Spoiler

It's probably best the horrors of the imagination maintain their distance. 

[Pentium100 2,246]

Fiction is meant to be interesting for the reader/viewer. However, if your real life is interesting to watch then it likely sucks for you. 

If someone made a movie or a TV show about me, the audience would fall asleep. 

When watching fiction, we want the characters to suffer. We want there to be some kind of problem for them, some kind of enemy to fight, a reason for the main character to hate the enemy etc. 

In the wedding episodes of FIM, we see Twilight going to the wedding, getting suspicious of Chrysalis (disguised as Cadance), confronting her, getting almost killed by her, then having to escape the dungeon in a dangerous cart ride. After that, Twilight and Cadance confront Chrysalis, they have to fight multiple changelings etc, before finally winning. 
Imagine an alternative version of that episode. Twilight goes to the wedding, there is no disguised Chrysalis, no danger, the wedding proceeds as planned and they all have fun. 

Which version would be more interesting to watch? The one where the main character has to overcome danger and save the day or one where nothing really happens? Which version would you prefer if you were Twilight and it was your life, not some TV show? Would you really want to have to fight some powerful enemies instead of celebrating the wedding peacefully?

The only piece of fiction that is not awful for the characters (that I know of) is Lucky Star. It is slice-of-life anime where the characters pretty much just talk all the time and nothing happens. 

This is why I would not really want to live in some fictional world - they all have problems and a lot of those problems are worse than in real life for most people. I guess, in some fictional worlds, if you stay away from the main characters it may be OK, but in others, not so much.

[Dawnshine Wonder 1,320]

2 minutes ago, Pentium100 said:

Fiction is meant to be interesting for the reader/viewer. However, if your real life is interesting to watch then it likely sucks for you. 

I'm not denying that fiction is meant to entertain, the point of the thread is that it is a good thing giants from BFG don't exist, because if they did we'd all be in serious trouble.

On screen they are entertaining, and that is what keeps people watching, we would not enjoy this half as much if it was all slice of life where characters just discuss their relationships like a Soap Opera all the time. People are more entertained by anime such as Pokemon, Dragonball and One Piece. I don't believe I could ever get into One Piece although I know some people like it, a story about pirates, but it goes on for about 1,000 episodes I think. Dragonball, yes, it is entertaining to watch their battles sometimes, however character growth and plot inconsistencies are a problem which is why I am not drawn to that anime as much nowadays.

I've seen far more incompetence from Goku and Vegeta in DBZ/Super than any of the main characters in My Little Pony. Twilight Sparkle would not let enemies reach full power just because she wants a challenge, she would do her best to avoid that outcome if at all possible. The only reason she gambled her magic in a trade for her friends with Tirek in Twilight's Kingdom in season 4 finale, is because it was her opportunity to outsmart him, she could have carried on the fight, but victory was not guaranteed, by that time, their battle had already taken out most of Ponyville, lots of property destruction, she did not want all of Equestria being brought down just to prove how mighty she was, she wanted the fight to end without further destruction.

With DBZ characters it's different, Vegeta in DBZ up until end of Buu arc, did not really care about the destruction his battles caused as long as he showed his alpha male superiority, he was a terrible person, who should have learned from his mistakes in Buu arc, but didn't, remember that mistake he made in Cell saga where he let Cell get his Perfect form? does the same thing again with Buu, negating his character development, which left a lot of Vegeta fans upset, yes he did sacrifice himself to attempt to destroy Buu, but that outcome could have been avoided if the man with a big ego had listened to Supreme Kai who tried to mediate the situation, then Goku threatens him to give into Vegeta's demands, which was stupid.

 

Even though MLP FIM world has its problems, I think I would rather exist in that fictional world as a Pegasi than our one. Queen Chrysalis in MLP fiction is dangerous, but even if humans didn't start a nuclear war, economic inflation and environmental damage are two things that are actively making people's lives miserable. Environmental damage does because it leads to situations like untreated sewage being dumped on shorelines and in rivers, which can and does make people sick. All well and good suggesting people should not swim in it, however when it is hot during a summer season, excessive heat can and does kill, and going for a swim does help bring your body temperature down, some people did take that chance, and sometimes they get away with it, sometimes not, then again, nobody lives forever, you or I could end up dead from a stroke tomorrow, so we got to appreciate life while we still have it.

 

[Pentium100 2,246]

12 minutes ago, Dawnshine Wonder said:

I've seen far more incompetence from Goku and Vegeta in DBZ/Super than any of the main characters in My Little Pony.

Both have their idiot moments, because it may make it more interesting to watch. In real life, you would want to be the most OP possible and in a real fight (as opposed to a sports match like boxing), you would want to cheat as much as possible to win. However, for Goku and Vegeta, characters who like fighting and getting stronger, it may feel unfair to do that, especially if they think they are powerful enough. Of course that comes back to bite them once in a while when they let the opponent become too powerful. Still, they are likely more interested in having a great fight than the result. Besides, any collateral damage can be fixed by asking the dragon. 

In MLP, characters, both the good guys and the bad guys, have their own idiot moments. Your example with Twilight and Tirek was one of them. Twilight took the more risky option, basically she relied on being able to use the new magic with her friends and she also relied on Tirek not killing her immediately. Normally you would want to take the least risky option. Of course, MLP being a show for children, the bad guys never just kill the heroes. Also, this is because if the main 6 died, there wouldn't be much of a show left, even in shows for adults, it is very rare for the main character to die and it usually happens only because the actor did not want to participate anymore. 

Since this is not in the debate section, I won't discuss real life politics here. 

[Dawnshine Wonder 1,320]

1 minute ago, Pentium100 said:

Both have their idiot moments, because it may make it more interesting to watch. In real life, you would want to be the most OP possible and in a real fight (as opposed to a sports match like boxing), you would want to cheat as much as possible to win. However, for Goku and Vegeta, characters who like fighting and getting stronger, it may feel unfair to do that, especially if they think they are powerful enough. Of course that comes back to bite them once in a while when they let the opponent become too powerful. Still, they are likely more interested in having a great fight than the result. Besides, any collateral damage can be fixed by asking the dragon. 

As Yamcha said in Dragonball Z during the Cell games in English dub, "This is Cell we are talking about, who cares about being fair" right after Goku foolishly tosses a senzu bean to him so he can get his full power back to battle Gohan. No matter how fans try to dress it up, that was a poor strategy that relied on pure chance, of Gohan reaching SSJ2, at this point in the story Gohan is a child after all. Goku is a rubbish tactician, if he wants to buff himself up, do it in a sparring session with his friends, outside battles for the fate of the universe.

 

5 minutes ago, Pentium100 said:

In MLP, characters, both the good guys and the bad guys, have their own idiot moments. Your example with Twilight and Tirek was one of them. Twilight took the more risky option, basically she relied on being able to use the new magic with her friends and she also relied on Tirek not killing her immediately. Normally you would want to take the least risky option. Of course, MLP being a show for children, the bad guys never just kill the heroes. Also, this is because if the main 6 died, there wouldn't be much of a show left, even in shows for adults, it is very rare for the main character to die and it usually happens only because the actor did not want to participate anymore. 

Again,  in that episode of MLP FIM, Twilight Sparkle winning the fight against Tirek was not certain, how do you know it was the more risky option? did you even pay attention to the damage their fight caused in those 2 short minutes? for all we know, there could have been civilian casualties off screen that we don't know about as a result of it being a children's animated TV show. Collateral damage is not a valid defence for war crime. We don't have the numbers, and I know I am going off headcanon here, but I would not be surprised if that battle alone led to the deaths of at least 100 Ponies in Ponyville off screen.

If the fight had continued it is entirely possible Equestria would have been destroyed by the time their battle ended, and even if it hadn't, a detail you're forgetting is that if Twilight Sparkle did not pursue the trade for her friends who were held hostage, Tirek may have threatened to harm one or all of her friends in an effort to coerce Twilight Sparkle into backing off. Tirek could have killed one of them any time he wanted, then how would their rainbow magic defeat Tirek? that plan would be dead in the water, if Tirek had decided to kill either Rarity, Fluttershy, Pinkie Pie, Rainbow Dash or Applejack.

 

[Dawnshine Wonder 1,320]

In summary, Twilight Sparkle in MLP FIM at least knows how to handle a hostage situation, as shown in Twilight's Kingdom episode.

In Dragonball, Goku does not. That is one failing that I cannot overlook about that fictional character because it matters in a situation where characters are at war.

Goku and his friends in both Cell and Buu saga were saved by plot armour, nothing else. Goku was less foolish in OG Dragonball, where he would try to reason with King Piccolo instead of pursuing a situation which could have resulted in Tien being killed. In DBZ, Cell keeps the Z squad hostage, and Goku's plan was to give Cell a senzu bean, which had a high probability of going badly wrong.

Trusting Goku in Dragonball to deal with a terrorist is like trusting Hotrod in the Transformers 1986 movie to deal with Megatron who got Optimus Prime killed, and while it may pay off sometimes in the end, it only ever does so by luck and plot armour.

Twilight Sparkle in My Little Pony Friendship is Magic episode Twilight's Kingdom chooses not to risk having her friends killed when the opportunity to avoid that outcome presents itself, as shown in her deal with Tirek, her magic in exchange for the safety of her friends, which then made it possible to defeat Tirek with their new power up. If her friends died, Tirek would have won.

 

[Pentium100 2,246]

1 minute ago, Dawnshine Wonder said:

Goku is a rubbish tactician, if he wants to buff himself up, do it in a sparring session with his friends, outside battles for the fate of the universe.

Goku was never shown as being very smart. He's embodies the saying "Сила есть, ума не надо" (translated from Russian - there is strength, no need for intelligence). 

44 minutes ago, Dawnshine Wonder said:

Twilight Sparkle winning the fight against Tirek was not certain, how do you know it was the more risky option?

Assuming nobody has premonition abilities, trying to fight Tirek was the less risky option. Allowing Tirek to absorb her magic was the equivalent of giving the enemy your gun and then not only hoping he does not shoot you, but also hoping you can find a better gun. Tirek could have just killed her on the spot after gaining her magic. After all, he does not need to play fair. Fighting, on the other hand would have resulted in a lot of damage, but a higher chance of winning. 

If a plan relies on your enemy choosing to not kill you or to keep his word (even if he has no real reason for either), then it's a very risky plan, basically relying on your enemy being stupid and overconfident. 

50 minutes ago, Dawnshine Wonder said:

Tirek may have threatened to harm one or all of her friends in an effort to coerce Twilight Sparkle into backing off.

Yes, he had hostages, however, there was no reason for him to keep the hostages alive after he got what he wanted. 

52 minutes ago, Dawnshine Wonder said:

Tirek could have killed one of them any time he wanted, then how would their rainbow magic defeat Tirek?

Twilight could probably have used Celestia's power and dropped the sun on him, or created a small, short-lived sun (a thermonuclear explosion). 

However, her plan in the episode was to give all magic to TIrek, hoping to somehow miraculously get a superweapon capable of defeating him. What if the keys did not work or were not powerful enough?

11 minutes ago, Dawnshine Wonder said:

Twilight Sparkle in My Little Pony Friendship is Magic episode Twilight's Kingdom chooses not to risk having her friends killed when the opportunity to avoid that outcome presents itself, as shown in her deal with Tirek, her magic in exchange for the safety of her friends, which then made it possible to defeat Tirek with their new power up. If her friends died, Tirek would have won.

Tirek could have killed them anyway. The new superweapon could turn out to be not powerful enough. Twilight had no way of knowing that, that's why her plan was bad. It does not make Goku look smart, but t does not make Twilight look smart either. Relying on multiple unknowns is not a good plan. 

[Dawnshine Wonder 1,320]

3 minutes ago, Pentium100 said:

Tirek could have killed them anyway. The new superweapon could turn out to be not powerful enough. Twilight had no way of knowing that, that's why her plan was bad. It does not make Goku look smart, but t does not make Twilight look smart either. Relying on multiple unknowns is not a good plan. 

Sometimes you have no choice but to deal with two highly risky options battle, it is a common problem in a war situation, military commanders know this, and we don't, or shouldn't, need to tell them how to do their job.

Yes, in MLP FIM episode Twilight's Kingdom, Tirek could have killed Twilight Sparkle's friends anyway, but that would have been more likely if Twilight Sparkle had continued the fight, why? because Twilight Sparkle is an active threat in that scenario to him. Twilight Sparkle without her magic, Tirek saw no reason to destroy them because in his mind, he had already won, to him, it would be like hitting a helpless child, he saw no point. Coulda woulda shoulda is irrelevant, he got what he came for and he decided to move on.

 

Disarming your enemy sometimes means tricking them into thinking you're no threat to them, it's called psychological warfare.

[Pentium100 2,246]

3 hours ago, Dawnshine Wonder said:

Disarming your enemy sometimes means tricking them into thinking you're no threat to them, it's called psychological warfare

Yeah, my problem with that episode was the fact that Twilight did not know it would work. Taking a more realistic example - giving your gun to the enemy (who already has a gun) may work to trick him into thinking you are no longer a threat. He turns his back to you, you pull out a backup gun from your shoe or wherever and shoot him. However, Twilight did not really know she had a backup gun, she only hoped that whatever the box was would activate and would be powerful enough to defeat Tirek. 

Consider another example - Twilight gives up her magic to get her friends free (still relying on Tirek to not kill her, but whatever), then she and he friends go get the elements (a weapon proven to work well against multiple enemies) and use them on Tirek. This would have been a better plan, but at the time the elements were not available to use anymore so she had to use something that was not even proven to be a weapon. 

[Dawnshine Wonder 1,320]

7 hours ago, Pentium100 said:

Yeah, my problem with that episode was the fact that Twilight did not know it would work.

I see your point, however what else could Twilight Sparkle had done? Princess Celestia was trapped in Tartarus, along with Luna and Cadance, getting their help was impossible.

Twilight Sparkle was on her own and she had tough decisions to make, the trade was not going to be possible at the beginning of their fight, however forcing Tirek into cowardice made that opportunity present itself, at which point, Twilight Sparkle had two options

1) Continue the fight, but in so doing, increasing the risk of Tirek getting desperate and threatening to destroy one or more of her friends, Twilight Sparkle probably thought this outcome was not only likely, but certain, which justifies her decision further, she may have been too tired to continue the fight for all we know, in which case she would have lost the fight if the fight carried on regardless, but if Tirek did not know this, the risk of him taking out one of the hostages is still a danger she did not want to chance.

2) Initiate the trade at the stalemate, while she did not know if her new magic would put an end to Tirek, at least they had a chance.

Using your gun analogy, Tirek already possessed the gun, metaphorically speaking, so whether or not Twilight Sparkle gave up hers wouldn't have had an affect on the outcome if there truly was no way for her to stop him with her Alicorn magic, Tirek had the weapon both to use against his hostages and Twilight Sparkle herself. If Twilight Sparkle believed continuing the fight was too much of a risk she obviously had a good reason, Tirek had nearly all of Equestrian magic which made him extremely difficult to beat, and there are no easy answers here.

You might have attempted to continue the fight if you were in her situation, but if you lost, you would have cost your friends their only chance to stop him.

[Pentium100 2,246]

2 hours ago, Dawnshine Wonder said:

Twilight Sparkle was on her own and she had tough decisions to make, the trade was not going to be possible at the beginning of their fight, however forcing Tirek into cowardice made that opportunity present itself, at which point, Twilight Sparkle had two options

At that point I would have continued to fight. With the knowledge I would have had at the time, I would have thought that fighting was my only option, trying to outlast Tirek or to nuke him. Or to somehow free my friends and teleport them away. I would have no reason to believe Tirek would leave me or my friends alive if I surrendered (he did not look like the type who keeps his word as he had betrayed Discord) and even if we somehow survived, there was no reason to believe that the box would turn out to be a weapon powerful enough to defeat full-power Tirek. 

In the terms of the story, it may not have been the best choice, but IMO it would have been the best choice given the information available at the time. It's not like Twilight had access to the script.

This is another place where fiction is different from reality. The author can write anything he wants and can make it work in a story. Real life is a bit different, you don't get to know the future and have limited information available.

[Dawnshine Wonder 1,320]

5 hours ago, Pentium100 said:

At that point I would have continued to fight. With the knowledge I would have had at the time, I would have thought that fighting was my only option, trying to outlast Tirek or to nuke him. Or to somehow free my friends and teleport them away. I would have no reason to believe Tirek would leave me or my friends alive if I surrendered (he did not look like the type who keeps his word as he had betrayed Discord) and even if we somehow survived, there was no reason to believe that the box would turn out to be a weapon powerful enough to defeat full-power Tirek. 

Continuing the fight risks him killing the hostages, and even if he didn't, if you were worn out, you would not have had a chance in that situation. It's easy for people to claim Twilight Sparkle made an unwise choice in hindsight when they look at what could have been, but actually being in her situation is a different matter.

If I were in that fantasy world scenario and especially if I were worn out from the battle at the point of the stalemate with Tirek, I would have to weigh up my options carefully, and agreeing to the trade would become a consideration, since I would become fearful about the likelihood of him offing one of my friends. Using your head matters just as much as using your fists, or in this case, hooves. 

If I continue the fight instead of accepting the trade, and he kills one of my friends as a result, then guess what? that becomes my own fault, moreover, I also lose my only chance to defeat him and all hope is lost. I don't push for an impossible outcome, because it simply is not a wise strategic choice.