When all your ideas are just bad.

[MDLineArt 93]

So for some reason I have been just on this kick of coming up with terrible ideas.  Normally I am not a writer, more of a roleplayer, but I realize the things I would like to see arn't found, so I feel this compulsion to create these ideas, but I also recognize they are a terrible idea just on cursory glance. 

 

With the common discussion on how to avoid these pitfalls in writing, or in general creating among the fandom, what do you do when everything you start thinking up just seems to want to drive you further into some of these things that make people just groan.

 

I imagine it comes from the fact I have always enjoyed darker tones, and I feel the MLP:FiM universe has characters that can not only explore it, but give a world where you can come back from it.  I am a fan of villains, always cheered for the bad guys, even when I know they are going to get their comeuppance, I just always found them more interesting than many of the protagonists that they are up against.

 

In this line of thought, I've been messing around with some of my own head-cannon, and feel this compulsion to write based around my two favouret villains Queen Chrysalis and Nightmare Moon (Oooo, Edgy!).

 

Primarily, Nightmare Moon / Princess Luna I find easily to write the concepts that define her character, that of coming to terms with your past mistakes, but also why they came about.  There is also some good stories to tell about the price of ambition matched with the drive of envy.  She tries to separate herself from Nightmare Moon, that being understandable, but she in turn also doesn't acknowledge how strong she was for it.  This separation is not acceptance, and in doing so makes her struggle to move on, and it's these themes I want to play on.

 

Queen Chrysalis on the other hand you have (Head Cannon) a figure so focused on providing for her swarm and rising that you can play on themes of good traits taken to extremes to become weaknesses.  Now with this manipulator, this crafter of plot and tactician, it seems that one advantage Queen Chrysalis has is being able to prey on emotional unrest.  This makes a very interesting combination when paired with the less than secure Luna.

 

Long story short, the concept comes from their histories.  Queen Chrysalis defeated Celestia directly, and Luna could only do that as Nightmare Moon (And even then it is questionable).  By the end I would like to have Luna have to embrace herself, in her entirety, no longer denying a fault of herself and having to accept what she is.  Have a confrontation where Luna takes on the Nightmare Moon persona again, and leave the audience questioning if she can come back from it again, only to find there is nothing to 'come back' from, as she has accepted both Luna and Nightmare Moon as one and the same, unlocking her own full potential because she no longer bars herself from her potential due to her thousand year banishment.

 

Like I said, terrible idea.  So how do you guys get out of these situations, or how do you go about recrafting the idea so it's not a fundamentally flawed concept?

 

 

[Overlord0909 479]

I find your idea quite interesting. But this topic isn't a critique, so instead I'm going to insert my thoughts on the real question at hand; how do you fix or re craft your terrible idea? There's only two options, either you change something within the idea, or discard it. Really there's nothing better you can do, and no outside opinion can change your preference. Just being blunt about.

 

Sorry if I answered the wrong question by the way, there's so much written 

[MDLineArt 93]

See, the thing is one of my MAJOR pitfalls as a writer/role player is that I DO enjoy the edgy-for-the-sake-of-edgy stuff.  It's not what I write or create as much anymore, but I do find that I empathize with villains more, and as such I want to write for them.  While I could try to do something with Rarity or Apple Jack, I don't feel it would connect as well because they don't offer alot of material that I find facinating to work with.

 

I'm trying to tone it down, but in doing so rather than gaining something else out of it, I find the work just feels watered down.

 

Appreciate you thinking the concept in intriguing, but let's be honest, most of the fandom would shut that story down faster than a new borne alicorn in a season opener.

[El Duderino 879]

Not a terrible idea at all. Don't be so hard on yourself. It could use some work, but that's ok. I say just go with it. As you work more on it, you will naturally change things and It will eventually start to get better and better. 

[MDLineArt 93]

@@El Duderino, Appreciate it.  Unfortunately, the original spark came from the old song "When Bad Meets Evil".  Not to say I want to write them one-note, but I think that clean-cut protagonist/antagonist work feels a little too obvious.

 

I may write it just to get it out of my system, but you are right, I am very hard on myself, and I don't feel like what I do is quite up to where it needs to be.

[Jaxsie (Inactive) 1,343]

Terrible by who's standard? It seems to me that you're comparing your ideas to others work. That is a mindset that can easily stunt your creativity. Now, if you believe it's a horrible idea because (and only because) you think it is, then brainstorm ideas to make it better. But never think an idea is bad based on what you see other writers doing. Many great works started off as "terrible ideas." Do you. Write what you want to read and enjoy the ride -- someone will enjoy it just as much as you did writing it.

[MDLineArt 93]

@, I suppose it comes from what I often see in the forums.  I am trying to hammer out the bullet points of a plot right now for that bad idea, just to get it out there on paper, but the standard I am holding it to is "Would this make a good episode if it were an actual script?"

 

I figured if I am gonna write Fanfiction about a character I created, that's one thing.  Then I have to teach others about the character and while trying to catch initial interest is tougher, is under a heck of alot less scrutiny than what I am doing right now, trying to work with established characters and show cannon.

 

The reason I am worried it is a terrible idea is more on the standards of others I see.  For me, I like villains, and I find the concept of Queen Chrysalis too facinating to not be used, as I think it really is something the writers need to get back to, and I think the idea of Luna being filled out a bit more in her own arch is something I want to see as a fan. 

 

And to top it off, I think I am not the only one who loves the idea of a villain vs villain situation, which works all the better when one of those villains are redeemed but still has that baggage of when they were the badpony. 

 

For me, the story writes itself.  Maybe it's too paint-by-numbers, but ya gotta work within the rules of storytelling before you work outside them.  I am trying to focus on just making a good story, and learning the craft. I hope that if I write the story well enough, I may actually gain some valuable experience in doing so and maybe pair it with my art to illustrate stories as well as write them.

 

Maybe it's me fanboying a little too much, but they are the two characters that resonate with me the most in the series.

[Taialin 217]

I'm coming from the roleplaying circuit as well to ring in here. I'm also a fellow writer. Hopefully you remember me. 

 

Allow me to provide my opinion on what I think of your idea being "too edgy." There are plenty of people that go far over the line when trying to write a story, and I realize that that line is different for different people. But having read plenty of wonderful and terrible stories, in my opinion, I do not think you have crossed that line. For me, being "too edgy" is when so many facets of the story are so ridiculous and unbelievable as to completely decimate suspension of disbelief. Lemme see here . . . Princess Luna redeeming herself does not in any way seem that unbelievable, given that it's been a popular story topic for a very long time, and "Do Princesses Dream of Magic Sheep?" canonized this story. To have Princess Luna and Nightmare Moon "merge" in a way is different, but not in a way that seems unbelievable. You do have to be careful what you want Nightmare Moon to represent, however.

 

Chrysalis' plight is neither that unbelievable. Have you ever read Noblesse Oblige? It actually concerns a similar storyline, though including the redeeming of Chrysalis. The fact that you retain her villain-ness and give her adequate reason for being so isn't very edgy either; it's justification, and it shows that you're willing to justify and rationalize villains.

 

As for their fight . . . admittedly, it is a fight between "superpowers" of sorts, and that can be seen as edgy. Why I still believe your particular storyline is not is because you show a desire to want to characterize both of your main characters in a very relatable and human way. If you do that, there's no reason for readers to consider your story is "too edgy." Your characters have, well . . . character. Not "edginess."

 

Finally, it's a lot easier to say something is "too edgy" when the story is written poorly as well. Just from your plotline synopsis, I can tell that you know a lot more about writing than those people I'd peg for making untenable and unbelievable edgy stories. The very fact that you're concerned your idea is "too edgy" is in of itself reason to believe that your story is not. While your idea is not one I'd call "safe," it is one that is very possible to do, and very possible to do well. And I think you're halfway there already.

[MDLineArt 93]

@@Taialin, Oh yeah, I would never forget ya

I appreciate the feedback.  Yes, it very much boils down to a match of the 'titans', but there are few Villains that match as well as I see it, and I really would like to make sure that it is viewed as a grand payoff, and I think there is very very few villains that can match up to it.  Particularly I want Luna completely broken internally (And a bit externally, but thats to present her state at the time, despiration and proving she has a way to grow first), to make it a better underdog rising to the challenge story. 

 

The focus though is that growth, and I feel that any 'fight' should be an external representation of what is going internally between characters.

 

The way I see it, Luna denying Nightmare Moon is her forcing to act with one hoof tied behind her back, because she wont allow herself to slide back into becoming Nightmare Moon, putting her in a state of denial.  The strength only comes when she unbinds herself, accepts her feelings, and ultimately forgives herself for it.  

 

As for what Nightmare Moon represents, her grief, her jelousy of her sister, her internal turmoil, and her potential left unchecked.  I know cannon wise Nightmare Moon is the result of a spell, but it is also something Luna brought about on herself, and the way I want to potray it is as a 'This IS your full potential, but you're scared of it because of the baggage'

Edited April 4, 2016 by MDLineArt

[Taialin 217]

Sounds like you do know a lot about what it takes to make an interesting story, and I agree that character growth should be the focus of the story.

 

Why I asked for you to be careful about what Nightmare Moon represents is because you're having Luna rejoin with her, and symbolically, Nightmare Moon should represent some vital part of her that Luna is repressing, hence her relative weakness and inability to gain her "full potential." And I think that's what you want Nightmare Moon to be. Problem is, the analogy gets a bit complicated when you consider that when Luna embraces Nightmare Moon again in the climax, she's symbolically also embracing and her grief, her jealousy, and her inner turmoil and integrating it back into Luna's personality proper. Is this what you want, and if so, how do you intend to convey Luna achieving victory when she's in fact embracing what many would consider to be old vices?

[MDLineArt 93]

 

 

Problem is, the analogy gets a bit complicated when you consider that when Luna embraces Nightmare Moon again in the climax, she's symbolically also embracing and her grief, her jealousy, and her inner turmoil and integrating it back into Luna's personality proper. Is this what you want, and if so, how do you intend to convey Luna achieving victory when she's in fact embracing what many would consider to be old vices?

 

I think it being convoluted is also the reason it works a bit better. The key difference is it's not an embrace but an acceptance of her grief, jealousy, and inner turmoil, but the reason being is it's part of moving on.  It has to be accepted first before you move on, and I think much like anyone who has done a great wrong, before you can even accept the forgiveness of others, you have to do so for yourself first.

 

This also gives an interesting angle, because upon first appearance, it would seem that taking on the Nightmare Moon persona again is her sliding back, and I want to use that as a point of the reader feeling like she's fallen further, give that lowest point, for the audience, and Luna to realize at this point in her journey, she has grown, is willing to accept herself, and begin forgiving herself.  This allows her to tap into that power she once coveted to overcoming her sister, and instead directing it to something worth while.

 

The portrayals of Luna at this point have been about denial.  She does everything to separate herself from Nightmare Moon, but in doing so she's not facing it, she's running from it.  I think this is the difference between what the show has done with Luna and her past, and what I am trying to take it to.

[Raeligath 59]

From the title of the thread, I know the feeling. I'm pretty sure every writer hits that point sooner or later. In my experience, this often comes from comparing yourself and your ideas to others, or otherwise just being so critical you never let your ideas see the light of day.

That said, it's great that you're willing to share and discuss your ideas like this. This sort of feedback and brainstorming should be a good way to combat that vicious cycle of doubt and self-criticism.


Now, if I were to offer my own two cents on this discussion of the idea itself...

First off, I like the idea overall. The villains in FiM are definitely some of the more interesting characters to explore, at least in my opinion.

Now as for how to portray Luna and Nightmare, I think you're onto something with a theme of self-acceptance. One idea would be to make sure there's some sort of emphasis on how Luna rejects the parts of her that make up 'Nightmare', either through denial or fear or both. For example, you could show her, early on, berating herself for feelings of jealousy or spite. To my understanding, these sorts of thoughts are common in people who are struggling to better themselves, or who have lingering regret over something they once did. They can become obsessive and nitpick their own behavior.

This could be especially impactful if she were to freak out over something really minor and benign, i.e. that she felt jealous over the size of her sister's crown. Then later you could show how this was just a small symptom of a much greater inner conflict.

To me, it sounds like the goal of your story is to show that even if it's easy to vilify these 'bad' thoughts and feelings like grief and jealousy, they're still healthy and part of who someone is. So I say that it would probably be a good idea to illustrate how these can be healthy emotions before building up to the inevitable big battle and Luna-Nightmare merge.

Another idea is to show in some more literal sense that, without Nightmare, Luna is just a 'partial' pony. The relationship of Nightmare Moon and Luna is very allegorical, and you could do a lot by just building on that. A few examples come to mind that would also play against the fight vs. Chrysalis. Perhaps she has been physically weaker or even sickly since rejecting Nightmare, or she is unable to cast offensive/combat spells due to so thoroughly rejecting the emotions and thoughts they typically require.

Of course, all this is just brainstorming. It's your story, and I'm just trying to give suggestions to help you get your own ideas rolling. Whatever you decide, you've got a good idea to start here, and I'd love to see what you do with it ~

[Buck Testa 5,505]

I once proposed an MLP and Undertale crossover...I still get flamed for that to this day XD. Undertale peeps are a vicious bunch lemme tell ya O.o, Its like damn use that mercy button once in awhile holy shit. 

 

As for your idea, I could see Luna and Chrysalis coming to some kind of understanding over the course of a fic.

-They are both focused on their subjects (Luna for their adoration, Chrysalis for feeding them)

-They both are powerful when they indulge in their darker sides ( Celestia needed the elements of Harmony to banish Luna to the moon, Nightmare Moon pulled that on her sister without the elements. Meanwhile the more love Chysalis has the more powerful she becomes.)

-They are both shape shifters with spooky aesthetics

 

On the opposite ends

-Luna hates her darker side while Chrysalis relishes in it

-Luna punishes herself for what she did while Chrysalis is entirely unrepentant

-Luna's nightmare moon persona has a lot of similarities with Chrysalis 

 

 

From there you could totally build up a story based on their interactions with one another. 

[GeekySonic 1,150]

I apply the same learning technique to my writing that I use in everyday life: learn by doing. Ever since I was a grade schooler, I wanted to be a writer. I write all the time for fun. But I really am just not that good at it.

 

I like to think that I have great ideas. But I never know what to do with them. So I don't do anything with them.

 

I recently started writing fanfiction on Fimfiction.net, and I feel like all my ideas there are terrible. My very first submission was a typical grim-dark fic, the one after that was a typical shipping fluff.

 

The ones I have in the works include human Flutterbat nonsense, a Rainbow Dash centered EQG fic, and a freaking Sonic the Hedgehog crossover. All of them sound terrible in my head. But you are your own biggest critic.

 

I never expected anyone at all to like my ideas, and I'll never know if anyone likes my future ideas if I don't go through with them. If they don't, I can find out what I did wrong, learn to do it better, and try something new.

 

I'm still learning myself, and I haven't found that one idea that I'm so invested in that I have to get it right. I guess that's not particularly helpful, but I can afford to look back on what I've done so far, even if it sucks. I'm pretty accepting of failure at this point.

[MDLineArt 93]

Well, the thing is that I am somewhat using Chrysalis as a cracked mirror of Luna, and perhaps literally.  I think it works best in that regard, because while Chrysalis may care for her brood, she is willing to hurl them into dangerous situations relying on numbers as opposed to putting herself in the way to protect her children.

 

I also am not sure if I want to go with a thought I have of the Nightmare Moon reign.  In cannon, it's shown she had only taken on the persona for a night, but I think it was happening for quite some time before that.  Celestia seemed more shocked at the reveal of Nightmare Moon than anything, so what if Nightmare Moon was an alternate persona of Luna's that was responsible for quite a bit before that flashback, we were just witness to the final confrontation.

 

I know that the confrontation will be two instances.  One where Luna is rejecting her past as Nightmare Moon, and handled by Chrysalis (Showing a stark difference in an opponent who is physically more powerful and far more manipulative), using her past and guilt against Luna. 

 

The second confrontation brings about a false-reveal.  It should be built with the assumption that Luna slides back into her persona of Nightmare Moon, giving into Chrysalis' taunts of how she is just a shadow of Celestia, a shadow can not exist without light, and even her sister couldn't overcome her, what hope would she have?  However, in this, her attempts to use Luna's past and fragility does not work, because in accepting her past, Luna has taken away Chrysalis' most powerful weapon, and in accepting herself and her failings, is capable of far more by moving beyond it, in doing so showing Nightmare Moon and Luna as a single figure (Something I find even the fandom keep treating as separate, when they are not).

 

About the only real corny line of dialog may come at the end in Chrysalis' defeat.  Seeing Nightmare Moon before her, but not acting in a way that gives into the jealousy and insecurity, she would have to ask;  "Which are you?  Nightmare Moon, or Luna?"

 

One word would respond:  "Yes."