My Honest Final Thoughts On Starlight Glimmer

[Evil Pink One 13,506]

Some people just don't understand starlight glimmer or what FIM really is anyway....

Tsk tsk tsk.... And you call yourselves fans. 

[Ring Team 123]

About the "stereotype" argument, this doesn't really hold water because that wasn't a problem in the past. In fact, when the show came out, what made it incredibly popular for some years was that the Mane 6 weren't stereotypes, they were likeable. And by the time season 6 aired, the later seasons weren't as popular as the show was in the early years. Not to mention that we got other characters that portray the redemption themes more tastefully and with actual commitment, like Diamond Tiara from Crusaders of the lost mark, Luna from Luna Eclipsed, Babs Seed, Sunset Shimmer (even though I'm not a huge fan of Rainbow Rocks) and Tempest Shadow from the MLP movie.

I think a rule of thumb is that, if you have decent and likeable characters in your story, people are gonna watch your show because of these characters. After all, that's how Steven Universe and Gravity Falls were praised by many people.

And about the "mistakes" argument, I can understand little accidental mistakes. That's why I love Putting your hoof down, The last round-up, the MLP movie, Rarity Takes Manehattan or Call of the Cutie. But when you have an overpowered reformed villain with base-breaking magic who deliberately tricks and/or manipulates other characters without the show adressing it ever, that's not accidental. That's not incidental. Starlight did such a good job at manipulating other characters without suffering any kind of consequences.

Friendship is Magic is a very idealistic-focused TV show, with very defined heroes and villains. Writing a reformed villain who wants to redeem herself without fully committing to that evolution in an organic and consistent way is gonna be an annoyance for your story. If Starlight appeared in morally grey TV shows like Breaking Bad, Succession or even comedies where the main characters are allowed to be jerks (like Rick and Morty and The office), then she might work. But that's not the case here. It's like if Captain America was written by Mark Millar, where the Cap is being severely violent with everyone despite being Captain America and the story never adressed the problems he made because... because.

[LonelyYugi 59]

On 2022-04-03 at 6:28 AM, ChimeNotesworth said:

 if she has to have an element assigned to her, she would be the "Element of Empathy."

Element of Empathy is more Sunset Shimmer's thing.

[Ring Team 123]

7 hours ago, LonelyYugi said:

Element of Empathy is more Sunset Shimmer's thing.

This right here, especially after watching Friendship Games and Legend of Everfree. I'd add Rainbow Rocks, but I think it had a weak execution of Sunset's redemption, but compared to some egregious episodes of the last 4 seasons of Friendship is Magic, it's really hard to dislike it.

Rewatching this film last year and seeing Sunset Shimmer, I do wonder what would happen if everyone in Ponyville and Equestria hated Starlight because of what she did in season 5. I wonder why the writers didn’t do it. It’s not an impossible idea, they could have done that. They already did it with Diamond Tiara in Crusaders of the lost mark and Luna in Luna Eclipsed. They had a blueprint of what they wanted to do.

Like many fandoms, I think only half of the fans actually care of what and how a story is being told to the viewer.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Ring Team

[Dark Qiviut 22,379]

On 2022-04-13 at 12:04 PM, Ring Team said:

At the end of the day, and with the exception of The ending of the end, I have a hard time believing that the Starlight we've seen from season 5 to 9 is the same unicorn who wanted to redeem herself and learn from her mistakes as it was suggested at the end of Cutie Remark.

Not hard to believe one bit. Starlight went down such a rabbit hole as a result of her childhood trauma that she had to make her steps to becoming who she is today, and she made incredible strides over the last four seasons.

1. Using whatever excuse possible to not reunite with Sunburst, yet was able to become one with her childhood friend.
2. Say what you will about To Where and Back Again, but Starlight demonstrated how she can lead without manipulating, her dependency for magic, or letting her anger get the best of her. With a ragtag team of herself, Thorax, Trixie, and Discord, they successfully defeated Chrysalis and reformed the hive. Whereas Starlight accepted Twilight’s offer, Chryssie rejected it.
3. Season 7 fixed a glaring flaw from the season before, showing up more often and become more acquainted with Ponyville regardless of role she played. A couple of examples include:
   1. A brief background role in Fluttershy Leans In, helping her friends build the sanctuary.
   2. Trying to help Rarity regrow her mane.
4. Making the mistake by choosing to physically bottle up her anger with Trixie rather than just talk it out out of fear that she’ll say the wrong thing, hurt her, and fracture their friendship together.
5. Becoming one with Maud and being the one Maud trusted when she admitted that her relationship with rocks made her not feel like she was judged. Considering so many misunderstand her or feel uncomfortable around her, Starlight Glimmer was the most open-minded about her, it was the first time where her personality wasn’t merely a gag.
6. When Sunburst found herself having so much fun with her friends, Starlight turned desperate and recreated a scene from childhood just to find ways to have something in common with each other. The scene was rightfully treated as wrong, and it only made things worse.
7. Shadow Play concluded her redemption arc perfectly. Afterwards, FIM didn’t remind the audience of her past nearly as bluntly as before.
8. When Twilight’s school was unaccredited, Starlight used her experience and their time together as a reminder that Neighsay’s xenophobia shouldn’t cause her to abandon the School of Friendship.
9. Working with the Mane Six and students to develop and save the play.
10. Because no pony went to her office, Starlight believe she wasn’t wanted in the school. Cozy showing up changed her mind permanently.
11. Because of her success as guidance counselor, Twilight trusted her into becoming the School of Friendship’s next headmare and then make the right executive decisions moving forward.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Dark Qiviut

[Megas 27,568]

I think they should have swapped Shadow Play and TWABA just to give her arc a slow burn instead of blowing their load from the start. Most likely more people would have liked the latter more if they built up her development more

[Ring Team 123]

15 hours ago, Dark Qiviut said:

[...]

It's not a trauma. it's just that her best friend moved away, it's nothing traumatic. If she really cared about Sunburst that much, why didn't she ask him for his new adress or new town? Why didn't she send him a letter? Why didn't she make other friends? Instead, she just started a cult and tried to ruin Twilight. What she did was nonsensical.

1. I think Starlight really wanted to reunite with Sunburst. We saw that in The Crystalling and Uncommon Bond.

2. Twilight and her friends wouldn’t let themselves to be kidnapped by Chrysalis because, first, they already met her and the changelings in season 2 and based on that experience they would be more aware of them and, second, by the time season 6 was ending, they already faced villains such as Nightmare Moon, Sombra, Discord, Tirek and Starlight herself. So there’s no reason for them to let themselves to be kidnapped this way. The fact that this episode is about Starlight rescuing them is essentially fanfiction territory. The main characters of the show are kidnapped, so the “new one” will rescue them with the help of the favourite characters of the author. It’s unconvincing and lacks creativity.

3. About Fluttershy leans in, I could buy that. But I don't think Starlight cared about Rarity losing her hair. You kinda see in her dialogue: "You can’t command ponies’ attention because your mane’s messed up?" Considering how much Rarity appreciates beauty and first impressions, she pretty much doesn't considers her feelings. As long it's not Starlight problem, she wouldn't care.

4. I don't think that use of dark magic was consistent for three reasons. First of all, wouldn’t make sense to establish this back in Cutie Map and Remark? These episodes have moments where she was factually stressed and nothing happened. Second, this idea is insidious. I don’t know what this episode is trying to make by giving even more power to a character that was already incredibly powerful and dangerous back in season 5. Third, I find disturbing that the writers make Starlight some kind of time bomb. If someone says something to Starlight, it better make her happy because, if not, get ready for getting manipulated with dark magic. In a nutshell, this episode is “don’t make Starlight nervous, don’t argue with her, don’t question her and literally don’t say anything to her”.

I wouldn’t be surprised if nobody, absolutely nobody in Ponyville, maybe even Equestria, don’t question her because of this single episode. It’s like that Simpsons episode where Bart has magical powers and he puts everyone on edge because of it.

5. I already discussed Starlight's take on rocks right here.

6. Yeah, it was wrong, but she doesn't seem to have a problem not only recreating it, but also keeping manipulating other characters even though she's supposed to learn from her mistakes.

I'm not going to talk about the rest of the points because I barely remember these episodes and I have zero interest in going back to watch these episodes, but at least seasons 8 and 9 were better than 6 and 7.

That said, I'm gonna say this: A good friend of mine, a medic who was debunking some points to someone about the whole COVID-19 situation back in 2020 said something that stuck with me: He fully believes in the importance of guilt and responsability in humanity. When someone deliberately makes a mistake, that person can't say "hey, give me a break", because that person invalidates that guilt and responsability. The same thing can be applied to movies, books and TV shows, including this one, particularly Starlight, someone who keeps doing the same mistakes.

In It Isn't the Mane Thing About You, Starlight says that time travel spells are not an option, but in Uncommon bond she decides to use a teleportation spell and an age regression spell to Sunburst without his consent to recreate that past from season 5, which is basically time travel with extra steps. Not only she’s an hypocrite, but every single character in Ponyville don’t question her intentions and actions. For the writers, it’s more convinient to stay vigilant at Discord’s intentions and not doing the same thing to Starlight as if it's not allowed to question Starlight, which the show never did, especially after putting Cozy Glow in jail in Tartarus in season 8 by the same reasons Twilight gave Starlight another chance in Cutie remark. Starlight’s writers are like spoiled little kids who don’t wanna share their toys and don’t learn from their selfishness. The no-fun police.

As a result, Starlight Glimmer, with the exception of The beginning of the End and The ending of the End, became this.

I really don’t know what happened in the creative process of this character. I can make guesses, but with no intention to blame to any writer or producer, I think back when season 5 was in the making, Rainbow Rocks was released, many people love it and it popularized a very common request since 2013: "Put Sunset Shimmer in the TV show". So, in a very rushed result, Starlight would have been considered as the new seventh main character of the show. Or maybe the writers and the team were too confident with Starlight's character arc. Maybe there were too many yes-men. Maybe things were different before considering her a new main character. The most logical guess I can make is that it could have been just a scheduling, pipeline, mismanagement and deadlines problem.

I wasn’t there to see what actually happened, but it seems more plausible to me than the idea of someone saying in the pipeline phase of season 5: “Hey, why don’t you take a crack and say that Starlight started a cult because her friend moved away and make Twilight forgiving her too fast without developing her character in the entire season?”.

I think most of the creative decisions related to Starlight weren't well planned. The G4 writers didn't figure it out. So the fact that the new writers in G5 (both A New Generation as well as Make your Mark) figured it out is a big deal.

I won't blame any writer or producer for the creation of Starlight. What I do blame on the producers is in the state of the Starlight debate. Talking about her has become kind of awful. There's a 6 years long discussion on the character with very divisive opinions and, even though most of the conversations are very civile, there's a vocal minority that takes this as a chance to blame and namecall and call out the people who didn't like her as much as they do. There's a user (and other people) who's been harassing me and calling me out and lying for 9 months in a hostile way, all because I didn't like her as much as they did.

This and 2 other users (without counting anonymous users) apparently decided to harass me for 9 months in different threads, calling me out systematically every single time. This says more about these vocal fans than what they want to say.

Not only this is incredibily tiring and mentally exhausting, but i'm worried that, based on that, many people will draw conclusions about me in this thread, all because I didn't like a fictional character as much as they do. It's not something that you want to be associated with, definitely not in a fandom of a TV show that's all about love and tolerance.

I think most of the blame is on the company who splits their audience this way. I’m not justifying the bad behavior, that’s not the point. I’m saying that, if you made your fanbase angry and divisive by a crative decision you made, maybe you should take a closer look at the creative decisions you’re making.

It’s a topic I have no problem having long conversations about, it’s just the people who defend her (not everyone, just a few vocal people) answer in the snidest worst way that it reminds me of the Zack Snyder fanboys, the otaku community or the Star Wars fanboys.

Besides, I can't be mad because at least I'm not the only person in the fandom who didn't find her interesting. I looked into some Starlight arguments from both sides. I didn’t expect that some people were also unhappy with Starlight and most of the creative decisions made by Josh Haber. It was reading their thoughts and suddenly saying “Oh my God, I’m not crazy”. I’m not alone in this anymore. I can’t be that surprised at what they did to Starlight after reading their reactions and thoughts.

Another big reason why this is not that big of a deal nowadays is that MLP:FiM doesn’t have a solid sense of continuity and consistency. Twilight Sparkle didn’t have a brother until season 2, Pinkie Pie had 2 sisters instead of 3 until season 4, Applejack wasn’t afraid of huge crowds until season 5. You can see this type of details in these 9 long seasons. I'm saying this because, even if we keep telling ourselves that the story makes sense, it actually isn't. It's very inconsistent. My Little Pony Friendship is Magic isn't supposed to have a concrete planned-out logical storyline. If there was one, it would be there, clear as day (and we definitively wouldn't talk that much about Starlight's character arc). The writers didn't think of the idea of writing stories about ponies for nine seasons. Trying to say that "the story makes sense" would be like falling in the Kingdom Hearts rabbit hole.

I could say more, but I'll save it for another occasion. And at least I made another thread where I shared an alternative idea for Starlight to make her work as a character.

One last thing: I hope many people will agree that praising a character or a story just "because it wants to say something to us" is a pretty boring way to talk about movies, shows, books or videogames. It's also equally important to talk about what stories might say in an unintentional way.

 

[ChimeNotesworth 2]

Wow, I made the right decision checking today! You guys made so many good points!

This time I want to talk about writing. In my opinion, Starlight Glimmer doesn’t need a rewrite—her writing is already close to perfect. 

To my mind, there is no “lack of motivation” to carry out her ambitious wrong deeds; I’m inclined to think the opposite: Sunburst’s leaving and Starlight Glimmer’s maverick nature were more than enough. If we imagine a tragedy was responsible for her mother's absence in the show, which rings true to me given how Firelight acts, Sunburst was all she had; Sunburst’s leaving was her last straw. My anecdotal experience bore witness to how fragile kids under eight years old are. We also have rather little knowledge of her past—we shouldn’t exclude the denial society feeds her back which strengthens her pre-established belief. That Twilight Sparkle’s “solicitation” instantly changed her mind also rings true to me, only because I relate to it heavily (if you’re interested, I explained this point in details two posts earlier). I might not speak for even a fraction of the audience, but it all adds up when my life experience and worldview meshes neatly with her arc and fills all—and I mean all—of the gaps. Now, I’m under the impression that Starlight Glimmer’s so-called “bad writing” is what the writers left to the imagination.

Taking a step back, I can’t help but admire Starlight Glimmer. This character makes big mistakes, walks a checkered path, constantly repents, changes her ways, suffers, destroys the world, and saves the world. Moreover, in my opinion, she enjoys the writing that has all the big and small things executed nicely. Generally speaking, she is a very successful redeemed protagonist. The character’s debut is in Season 5, entering the second half of the series, so her growth trajectory is relatively compact, and the overall plot of character growth and transformation is relatively reasonable. 

Of course, all of what I said above isn’t saying that other characters didn’t grow up. The series took nine seasons to finish, after all; I did see inspiring episodes of more wonderful character building. However, in my view, due to the somewhat excessive length of the series, the writers had exhausted their arcs. As a result, the growth of the Mane 6 inevitably appeared inconsistent. For example, Rarity and Rainbow Dash, who had gone through thick and thin, had conflicts because they told the students that "different views and interests do not prevent us from being friends," and finally needed an unsubstantiated plot of "Treasure Hunt" to get back together. Same with Rainbow Dash and Applejack (S8E9), Pinkie Pie with her musical instrument (S8E18), Spike’s identity struggles (S8E24), Twilight Sparkle’s idolatry (S8E7, S7E25-26), and so on. A strong sense of retrogression is clear to me. Examples of other characters’ inconsistencies are many. I shan’t bore you anymore. In my opinion, in the end, many characters are inconsistent and inflexible, jumping back and forth across the spectrum of maturity as if they are designed to be flat characters, and helplessly so.

As the show “dragged on,” it became more and more challenging for the writers to conjure up new materials that are both ideally profound enough and simplistic for the cartoon “kid’s show.” However, this leaves the character of Starlight Glimmer advantageous, as she appeared rather late. She performed relatively well in character development within the last two seasons, contrary to a few other characters, because of this—many would say, unfair—advantage. With prominent examples being Shadow Play (S7E25-26) and School Daze (S8E1-2), as much as I hesitate to say it, to me, Starlight Glimmer, in the late seasons, appears to be the only character “with reason,” character-wise and storytelling-wise. By the former, I mean that only her methodology is what I can understand and even sometimes agree on; by the latter, I mean that, taking her character into account, her actions make perfect sense. Besides, She became a completion of Twilight Sparkle, and both of their characters’ growths are indispensable to each other. Starlight Glimmer enjoyed “the spotlight” as the so-called “the writers’ pet” because only she still had that potential. In part, Starlight Glimmer is my favorite pony because “she’s the only one left.”

You could argue that (as Fluttershy stated in S7E14) trials and repetitions are needed before lessons are learned, but, personally, this sense that “old habits die hard” or that “the leopard cannot change his spots” isn’t what I look for. I want more growth. 

In conclusion, in my opinion, not Starlight Glimmer of all ponies should bare the title “badly written.” Selfishly speaking, she only deserves more screen time.

By the way, One major thing I love about MLP is exactly that every characters have the potential to be heavily disliked, and that the characters are full and three-dimensional. You like likable ponies; I like all ponies—that's OK, but I don't think MLP can be what it is without the less likable aspects of each characters to make them alive. That's why I think we can agree to disagree on whether she is "a good person." I see myself similar to Starlight Glimmer in character. I'm aware that I can't help it if some people think, for example, that I, who did many bad things, am a bad person, and that I don't deserve forgiveness. Hell, maybe they're right. However, at least forgiveness is healthier to me. If you don't substantiate your claims with logic or reason, I won't let you destroy what I have... but I will if you do.

On 2022-04-14 at 1:28 AM, They call me Loyalty said:

It is always easier to judge our betters, than to criticize ourselves.

Thank you for reading! What do you think?

Edited July 24, 2022 by ChimeNotesworth

[ChimeNotesworth 2]

Wait, there are *two* pages now??

Uhm... alright, hold on...

Things I disagree are a few: 

On 2022-07-07 at 10:41 PM, Ring Team said:

Another big reason why this is not that big of a deal nowadays is that MLP:FiM doesn’t have a solid sense of continuity and consistency.

The show does have continuity and consistency, just in a broader context and limited scale. We should focus on the whole picture, right? We don’t nitpick like LittleshyFiM (who, by the way, conveniently praises the show in his comment under Every Little Thing She Does’ Cinemare Sins) does—that’s their job. (Err... I don’t know how it insert images—just scroll down in the comment section. Littleshy’s comment in one of the replies.)

On 2022-07-07 at 10:41 PM, Ring Team said:

He fully believes in the importance of guilt and responsability in humanity. When someone deliberately makes a mistake, that person can't say "hey, give me a break", because that person invalidates that guilt and responsability. The same thing can be applied to movies, books and TV shows, including this one, particularly Starlight, someone who keeps doing the same mistakes.

While I believe in punishment and responsibility, in my opinion, the mentioned metric in the human world shouldn’t apply to MLP:FiM. Let me explain.

You bring up your friend; I bring up mine. I have a friend who studies law. He told me one thing: one of the important thinking characteristics of anyone practicing law is “legal judgement before moral judgement.” Only children want to distinguish between the so-called “good” and “bad.” The lawyer distinguishes between matters of guilt and innocence. The criminal procedure law (in where I’m from) tells me that any citizen has not been tried by the court, in the law should be regarded as innocent citizens. In fact, we put suspects into a “machine,” the legislative and judiciary system, and let the “machine” more righteously decide (ideally) their outcome. That’s why “bad people” have the right to hire lawyers.

Here’s the catch: although Starlight Glimmer is clearly guilty by our standards, there is not a system—and not any calls for it, as far as I’m concerned—to render her guilty in the fantasy world, where “friendship” rules. She’s innocent until possibly never proven guilty, because, without legal judgements first, there is only moral judgments, and it seems that Starlight Glimmer passed her test at least under Twilight Sparkle’s judgements. No one suspected this “timebomb” because ponies are smarter than you and I (I can write you an essay on this) and she’s passed the moral test, so now, she’s alright. “No reason not to forgive her.” If they were wrong about Starlight Glimmer and she took a wrong turn again, they wouldn’t regret their decision either—not regretted, just “disappointed.” They would still have followed their “laws.” However “unjust,” in MLP’s worldview, the outcome seems rather desirable, as she processed to benefit the society in a considerable scale.

Don’t get me wrong—we humans need laws as tools to peruse our wishful justice. However, what we aspire to is not “justice” itself. It’s *our* version of justice, oftentimes heavily flawed. That said, we need a construct to get us as close to justice as humanly possible. 

And you can’t go about justice without a system. I want to be as rational as can be. I say we shouldn’t just punish—or decide not to punish—someone out of indignation if they did horrible things. One example of this would invite more horrible things—further deviating from what we set out for.

As you said, the show depicts a very idealistic world—a wildly dreamy utopian worldview that perhaps isn’t practical for our society, not in our wildest dreams. The idealistic world has idealistic systems. To my mind, the show is trying to tell us that the system of friendship, love, understanding and all is more desirable—not to say realistic—than human’s only laws and regulations. Also, to say the least, ideally, every criminal would be assigned a “Twilight Sparkle” to put them under the right judgement, but the representative case of “forgiving Starlight Glimmer” is the closest we—or rather, ponies—can get.

In conclusion, there lie two options to deal with a person with an unresolved “record.” One, decide punishment according to rules, and if there aren’t rules satisfactory enough, make new rules. This is convenient for ruling the masses, but rules are oftentimes unjustly set in stone. Two, decide punishment or the absence whereof through personal and moral judgments. This is oftentimes inaccurate and can lead to more injustices, but ideally, it maximize the benefit for the society. In my opinion, the ultimate objective of justice is to improve lives; without that premise, justice is but a meaningless invention of the mind. If we can run the calculations of measurement of penalty in a supercomputer with infinite computing capacity, that’s when justice is served. As of now, can you really blame those who forgives Starlight Glimmer because “those people think they understand who she is”?

Furthermore, one question needs to be asked: how do we morally define a “bad person”? Well, evidently, answers differ from person to person. My standards are low—I don’t believe there’s such a thing as a “bad person.” I get to know them as a person, I help them all I can, I try to talk to them, reason with them and teach them hard lessons, and when it comes to that, I put them in trial. I’m fine if anyone tries to do the same to me. Hopefully, I can maximize the good I bring to the world, by how I treat them. I wanted to make Starlight Glimmer “responsible for her actions” at first, because she’s decidedly just too dangerous to be around, but then I think I got to know who she is, and that’s just enough for me to forgive her.

On 2022-07-07 at 10:41 PM, Ring Team said:

In It Isn't the Mane Thing About You, Starlight says that time travel spells are not an option, but in Uncommon bond she decides to use a teleportation spell and an age regression spell to Sunburst without his consent to recreate that past from season 5, which is basically time travel with extra steps.

It was an illusion spell. Hmph!

 

Thanks for reading!

Edited July 24, 2022 by ChimeNotesworth
To add some more thoughts.

[ChimeNotesworth 2]

On 2022-07-06 at 10:53 AM, LonelyYugi said:

Element of Empathy is more Sunset Shimmer's thing.

I made a post about Starlight Glimmer being the Element of Empathy:

Also, on Sunset Shimmer... I think “the Element of Forgiveness” would be her rightful place.

At the end of the first EQG movie, I cried—I **** you not. I love Sunset Shimmer. I’m sure hardcore Sunset Shimmer fans would notice how much just her change of jacket in Friendship Games entails. 
I guess I like “reformations” in general, because I’ve gone through a similar phase of it, even with a similar—quick—fashion as Sunset Shimmer’s and, in a sense, Starlight Glimmer’s.

Discord didn’t tick for me. He’s just playing. There’s no emotional baggage. Sunset Shimmer and Starlight Glimmer are different—they have emotional baggage to be who they used to be.

Starlight Glimmer’s emotional baggage, however “succinct,” is out there for all to see—something from her childhood. But Sunset Shimmer’s? We don’t really know! And this is no bad writing, is it? It’s  what makes her so fascinating. I get to assume—the best part of any story to me!

My theory of Sunset Shimmer’s past is, in one sentence, Celestia wrongfully took her as the Element of Magic. I have loads of proof for that, but for now I’ll name one. Remember what she said to Twilight Sparkle when she was a bout to—hehe—smash that mirror with a sledgehammer?

Quote

“Oh, yes, she’s so very special!

But I digress. The Sunset Shimmer vs. Starlight Glimmer comparison is so thrilling just to think about! I think the main difference between the two is...

Starlight Glimmer really thought what she was doing was justified. She experienced something extremely painful when she was young (I’ve talked about this in the last post), and she sought to create a world where “nopony has to go through that again”! There’s a certain nobility and respectability in that. She went about it the wrong way, but you can see a train of logic. 
Sunset Shimmer doesn’t give me that impression at all. What she did feels much more “visceral” and emotional. Not to say Starlight Glimmer wasn’t emotional, but hers “made sense” in a twisted way. Sunset Shimmer was just... angry! Her villainy felt like a rebellion. Perhaps a protest to the assigned life in a world she didn’t previously belong, just because of a monarch’s mistake.

I would say Sunset Shimmer didn’t get reformed at all, because she never was the person she was acting like. I don’t think she ever, for a moment, thought what she was doing was OK, and that’s why her turnaround was so instantaneous.

Quote

 

Twilight: What the **** girl! Get a grip!

Sunset: Yeah, ... ****, you’re right.

 

I don’t know about you, but I have a hard time imagining Starlight Glimmer singing:

That my past does not define me

'Cause my past is not today

For Starlight Glimmer, her past is what defines her—it was irreversible crime whose guilt she has to compensate emotionally for the rest of her life, and it was a manifestation of an inherent doer with good will. Sunset Shimmer’s past was a frustrated response—an unhealthy way of processing her pain, not who she was.

Her “reformation” was just a return of her true self. All it really took was someone’s forgiveness—a chance to remember who she really was and who she really could be. Only forgiveness can make that happen. Empathy itself cannot—there’s nothing more to understand about her. You need to forgive her.

And when you do, she’s a terrific friend.

Oh yeah, while we’re at it, I want to talk about this “bad writing” opinions on reformations. Many times people say I’m just making excuses of bad writings, saying “I relate to them.” I don’t know... I guess that’s what I’m doing? But this is not how I see things—not MLP:FiM. For Starlight Glimmer, as an example, sure, they might have more audiences and make more bucks if she were more “likable,” but I don’t give a flying **** about that. I-I mean... but they would sure as hell lose me as their hardcore fan! When some people see Sunset Shimmer’s and Starlight Glimmer’s “reformation,” they go: “This doesn’t make sense! Why would the writers do this?” But that’s not how my brain works. You see, I give the show the benefit of the doubt and think in its logic before criticizing. I say: “This doesn’t make sense! Why would she do that?” Then, one by one, I reach the most brilliant epiphanies I could ever ask for. I cried many times for that. ... Seems I cry a lot.

By the way, I really agree with content creator DWK on this one. Go check out his videos!

Thanks for reading again! I hope someone can change my mind!

Edited July 24, 2022 by ChimeNotesworth

[Goat-kun 2,527]

It's still going? Yare yare daze. I don't care what your deal is, don't tread on me. That's what's missing. The sanctity of oneself, as the sanctity of one's reason is false and worthless. There will always be guilty pleasures like dark overlords, mad gods, and evil magical lolis, but at the end of all things, heroes will never change, no matter how much some will try to perverse the reasoning behind their existence. As such, my policy regarding characters like Starlight remains the same: 

Spoiler

Luna, Sunset, Starlight, Stygian, there would be no negotiations. Bitches just need to be punched straight, and then they can rehabilitate in the corner. Good punches make good neighbors.

[Evil Pink One 13,506]

But what if Starlight glimmer successfully tricked twilight and everybody else?

She saw that twilight would never give up on stopping her abd they'd stay in an endless loop.... So why not be a mole and work her way up once more? Her original plan was to have twilight be part of her belief.... What if this was her plan all along?

What if... The reason gen 5 exist or happened is because of her? 

[Evil Pink One 13,506]

I also thought that starlight Glimmer's back story was...very weak.... But then again... She was a very young foal. Must've scarred her.

Pretty much twisted her sense of whats right and wrong....

Got stuck on her mind and guided her....

[Cash In 22,228]

I liked Starlight as a character, but some of the writing wasn't good IMO - specifically at the start of season 6. I'm on the train where I think she should've been a villain for longer than just Season 5 and given her a slower reformation. I think she's an interesting character overall I ended up liking a lot of her episodes, but she definitely had a rough start.

[SunsetShimmerStan 35]

On 2022-07-06 at 6:42 AM, Ring Team said:

This right here, especially after watching Friendship Games and Legend of Everfree. I'd add Rainbow Rocks, but I think it had a weak execution of Sunset's redemption, but compared to some egregious episodes of the last 4 seasons of Friendship is Magic, it's really hard to dislike it.

Rewatching this film last year and seeing Sunset Shimmer, I do wonder what would happen if everyone in Ponyville and Equestria hated Starlight because of what she did in season 5. I wonder why the writers didn’t do it. It’s not an impossible idea, they could have done that. They already did it with Diamond Tiara in Crusaders of the lost mark and Luna in Luna Eclipsed. They had a blueprint of what they wanted to do.

Like many fandoms, I think only half of the fans actually care of what and how a story is being told to the viewer.

How exactly would you have fixed Rainbow Rocks?

And how would Ponyville and the rest of Equestria find out about Starlight's actions? Cutie Map was just limited to Our Town and Cutie ReMark had different timelines so no one (aside from Twilight and Spike) even remembered what she did.

Also, didn't Diamond Tiara pretty much get shunted to the background after Crusaders of the Lost Mark, not a good comparison.

On 2022-07-05 at 12:57 PM, Courageous Thunder Dash said:

Honestly, the biggest flaw of Starlight for me was her huge excuse of a backstory. I was like:

"So you brainwash a small town of ponies, steal their cutie marks, have zero compassion when you witness just how upset the Mane 6 were without cutie marks and then attempt to alter Equestria's timeline all because a friend of yours got his cutie mark before you did and it made you think that cutie marks tear friendships apart? Seriously???" 

This was the weakest link, which caused Starlight's character to fall apart. I didn't mind Twilight redeeming/forgiving Starlight, but Starlight did need a punishment for what she did. The sad thing is that Starlight really didn't truly learn her lesson. I mean, just look at all the episodes like Every Little Thing She Does and that other episode where she nearly erases Discord. If Starlight truly learned her lesson, tears would've been shed and there would've been insecurity still, but it would diminish over time, like Sunset as others have mentioned. Right after her defeat, Sunset was crying her eyes out and even at the beginning of Rainbow Rocks, other characters aside from the EQG Mane 6 were weary around Sunset. 

To be fair, has there ever been a redeemed villain that had a good backstory to begin with? Sunset never got one for why she became mean and Discord lacks a backstory. Diamond Tiara got one, but was shunted to the background after Crusaders of the Lost Mark.

On 2020-05-26 at 8:35 PM, YoungJustice12334 said:

The way MLP Redeemed villains at first with Discord & Sunset Shimmer was decent and I thought they were enjoyable characters to watch after their reformations, but when Starlight's "Redemption" happened...The trope just started to annoy me because The Season 5 finale started the annoying trope of undeserved villain reformations for scumbags hell-bent on harming people and destroying Equestria who then turn out to have a Terrible Excuse for their actions. Don't even get me started with Tempest Shadow from the 2017 movie...

I'm not saying sympathetic villains aren't good, but you have to know HOW TO MAKE THEM WORK! And Starlight's redemption never really worked for me for these 7 reasons of mine.

1.) Starlight was A Hypocrite

We already started to get this confident pony with this philosophy, and she supposedly believes in equality and holds on to the belief that she's actually doing good. I'm aware that some Starlight fans believe that her heart was in the right place, and that she represents justice but I 100% disagree.

Let me ask you all something, If some of you thought Starlight's heart was in the right place, then why would Starlight's house be separated from the rest of her citizens, why would she be seen smirking & smiling devilishly when she robs Twilight & her friends of their Cutie Marks? Why would she be enjoying every last second of the pain The Mane 6 had when their cutie marks were removed?

Why would she hell-bent on severing the friendships of Twilight and her friends if she's the so-called Element of justice? All these points I disagree with and Starlight to me were a deceptive, dastardly, wicked & egocentric pony who doesn't represent righteousness and fairness! I consider this yet another case in which a villain gets treated like they're the victim/good guy when they're not and should pay attention to how evil their actions were. Starlight started off As a cult leader and She took control of the main character's minds along with the ponies of an isolated Village. In my opinion, she was A darker villain than Tirek because of that fact. No other villain in the show was equal to her power. Where Discord and Tirek only took away strengths and one's right mind, she takes away a pony's entire purpose. A cutie mark is a special thing a pony earns once they've discovered who they truly are and what makes them themselves.

That talent is then weaved into their very DNA and exposed in the form of a cutie mark, literally becoming a part of who they are. This is why the Mane Six experienced such excruciating pain when their cutie marks were taken, it felt like someone ripping your very soul out. Now if that isn't dark for you despite it being A kids show, then I don't know what is. Some people think The character has leadership because she led a village, But she led it BADLY. She STOLE their cutie marks away and forced everyone to smile and do everything the same. That's NOT leadership at all.

2.) Her backstory was poorly written and & excuse was stupid.

When I saw Starlight's "backstory" for how she became so twisted...and it turned out to all be because of some old friend from her childhood getting his cutie mark first and moving away, It was one of the most stupid excuses for her becoming A villain.

Starlight's backstory reminded me of Moondancer in some way due to their experiences of losing friends, but at least Moondancer didn't decide to practice enslavement, strip other Ponies of their free will & deciding to destroy life itself just because one friend left, in fact, a person with that mentality has a serious mental illness!

Starlight did all these dishonorable and despicable acts all because a friend who got his cutie mark from SAVING her went off to magic school and seemingly forgot all about her. Moondancer had a similar problem and it was worse, but we don't see her pulling off the same crap Starlight tried a good reason why many people sympathize with her over Starlight.

This makes Starlight one of the most scornfully pitiable characters in the entire show, if not all of fiction history. Worst of all, when we see Starlight immediately become completely forgiven and accepted by everybody upon restoring the timeline, not just by The Mane 6, but also by the exact same Equality town villagers that she emotionally/mentally abused & controlled for who knows how long?

3.) Instant forgiveness and She didn't earn It

Every other antagonist got punished or had some bad karma thrown at them. I used antagonist and not villains because many fellow Starlight haters look mostly at the evildoers instead of the selfish jerks. Let's see, Gilda, lost Rainbow Dash as a friend, Diamond Tiara gets humiliated and ultimately loses Silver Spoon as a friend, Lightning Dust, gets evicted from the wonderbolts, etc. Although Starlight gets some karma in her first run as an antagonist, she ultimately gets a slap on the wrist in her second episode when she has done arguably, the most monstrous acts in all of the show.

She gets to be the Student of the princess of friendship! Yay!! Even the ponies from her old village suddenly forgive her without the slightest hint of suspicion when she returns, sure they aren't happy to see her but they suddenly forgive her?! Becoming the Student of a princess is like a really big honor/reward, how the hell does Starlight come to the closest to deserving that? Oh yeah because her magic is strong.

4.) She was the Creator's pet

They are really pushing her character to be liked and they really like her, they have her more powerful than Twilight and other unicorns (probably excluding Starswirl), they put her in everything even when she doesn't truly belong, they want her to be the next princess, they show her as easily befriending everyone, they have her constantly steal the spotlight, ugh. It's all like "Starlight Glimmer is the most amazing unicorn, she's very best pony, bow down to your future majesty. Honestly, many people responded by leaving the show.

5.) Her less than admirable flaws/personality/character

A character needs flaws to be interesting but Starlight's doesn't do her any justice. She constantly uses her magic to fix problems, even forcing it on Big Mac just because she can't befriend quiet ponies, the princesses just because they can't get along and the mane 5 (to dodge friendship lessons) (and wasn't she given a lesson on not using her magic for coercion and bad?)

Her anger is no good and she's obnoxious (of course not if she's going to destroy the planet because you ruined her philosophy) take all bottled up for example, is that healthy anger? Even in episodes in which she appears in, she's not interesting, like she has to be stapled to another character like Trixie just to look good and her personality is a worse version of Twilights. She has no real defining quality other than, kites, or just being there.

6.) Upstaging The other characters of the show

Starlight Glimmer is my least favorite character in the entire MLP Series because to me, she resembles a terrible character trope which Is being The Creator's Pet. The Role involves her stealing the spotlight from every single main character in the series while she continues to shine but Starlight really doesn't. In The episode "Every Little Thing She Does" When Starlight becomes overwhelmed with so many Friendship tasks to fulfill, she resorts to using a brainwashing spell over the other Mane 5 to get the job done quicker. A pretty controversial episode and I can't even disagree either. While I get that it'd be a bit hard for a reformed villain to get completely used to the life of good, so few slip-ups now and then are to be expected, the way that Starlight was literally brainwashing Twilight's own friends just to sneak out of some bonding activities made her look both hella lazy and super sketchy for someone who's supposed to be "redeemed".

Not to mention the way Twilight just didn't seem to give a crap that her own friends got mentally hurt like this and let Starlight go Scott-free just pissed me off too much. And it's especially damning when you consider what happened back in "What About Discord?" where Twilight was SO quick to think Discord was up to some dire brainwashing plot after he and the other Mane 5 simply had a good time hanging out together without her yet when Starlight here actually DID commit literal brainwashing against Twilight's friends she just brushes it off like it was no big deal and even laughs at the thought of her friends getting hangovers from the incident...and It was terrible characterization for Twilight to just brush it off.

Following her redemption, to me, she just slowly started to become less of a charming new-addition and turn into more of an annoying nuisance. From shoehorning her dark past all rushed and forced-like into nearly ALL of her episode appearances, to her never seem to stick to certain lessons like how to NOT use her magic to solve a problem, and just by personality-alone, she seems to have lost a lot of her so-called "edge" that made her so interesting & entertaining in her first appearance. Starlight's influence wasn't a good example at all, and it leads to the show to go into an unfortunate Seasonal Rot as of Season 6 and 7. Season 7 did have a Few great episodes like The Perfect Pear for instance, But during the Season 6 and 7 finales, she once again takes the center focus away.

As far as her "Redemption" and character development goes, It feels all over the place. she was kind of a spoiled brat and terrible friend and If she were a true friend to Sunburst, she'd have been happy for him when he went off to magic school. Her backstory felt like A poor excuse for a motive who committed terrible crimes and was given a very shallow Heel–Face Turn presented through an abrupt two-minute musical montage while other former villains like Princess Luna, Discord, and Sunset Shimmer took TV seasons/movies to earn redemption and were arguably less evil.

Then with her newfound status as Twilight's pupil in Friendship, essentially making her a new addition to the Mane Six, It makes things for the show extra rough, And to top it off she's a blatant Sunset Shimmer copycat, with the exact same role Sunset Shimmer should've had. Starlight was starting to replace the current main characters and was a borderline Mary Sue.

She took away everything that makes every individual main character special by topping their magic capabilities, talent, knowledge, and just isn't unique. All she was is A OP fusion of the characters we love and she didn't really learn much. Unlike Sunset Shimmer, Starlight didn't really develop all that well. Starlight being shown to be very good at complex magic at the beginning and during "Every Little Thing She Does" was treated by some people first, as a good setup for her knowing how to combine several spells to achieve the effects of Mind Control.

Of course, the rift only got worse when the plot essentially involves the entire cast, that is all the royalty and the Mane Six, being thoroughly Worked without explanation. It validates complaints that the narrative is shilling Starlight Glimmer by weakening or making other characters look worse. Speaking of making another character's worse, Starlight Once again does this in the season 7 finale, where every single member of the main cast is given the l and absurdly powerful for seemingly no particular reason and her "Social Anxiety" isn't big enough of a character flaw to balance it all out.

To add more fuel to her being a Creator's Pet/Spotlight Stealing Squad during the Season 6 finale Starlight became even more of a base breaker when it was revealed she is taking center stage to rescue the mane six from "the return of Equestria's greatest threat" having a fourth premiere/finale centering around her is simply too much, especially considering the Season 5 Finale was focused entirely on her and Twilight Sparkle with the rest of the cast getting bit parts at best and how much prominence she has already been given in Season 6 and that her getting to take the main character slot for an entire two-part finale above the official main characters just reeks of favoritism. Of course, the rift only got worse when the plot essentially involves the entire cast, that is all the royalty and the Mane Six, being thoroughly Worfed without explanation. It validates complaints that the narrative is shilling Starlight Glimmer by weakening or making other characters look worse.

Speaking of making another character's worse. Starlight Once again does this in the season 7 finale, where every single member of the main cast is are treated like Complete Idiots to make Starlight the hero during the entire thing. The Mane Six, and Twilight, in particular, seem to be treated like Idiots through most of the episode. They were so preoccupied with rescuing the Pillars that they don't even stop to think about the possibility that they could unleash the Pony of Shadows in the process. Even Starlight, the only pony who objects to this plan, just has vague concerns about the dangers of space/time magic, rather than anything about the Pony of Shadows specifically.

It is implied that they thought that the sealing of the Pillars was a separate thing done to ensure the Pony of Shadows was sealed, and thus they thought they could free the Pillars without freeing the Pony of Shadows. So those are all the reasons why Starlight isn't one of my favorites In MLP, Starlight started off fine with her cunning, manipulative attitude playing well against Twilight in their struggle for power-up until the whole time travel arc...but after being offered unconditional friendship & forgiveness (following a lame backstory to explain all her "villainy", basically it just being that she was salty that her childhood friend got his cutie mark first and moved away) just went way off the rails for Starlight's development.

After that, Her character consisted being some OP goodie-two-shoes who pretty much stole Twilight's role now as the snarky nerd of the group, and has most of her past villainy being played off either as half-hearted jokes or just brushed off entirely without so much as a little comeuppance for evil acts. I still hate Starlight's redemption to this day because it was rushed, her backstory was poorly written, she was an annoying character when she became a good guy, & It started the annoying trope of MLP Having undeserved reformations for scumbags hell-bent on harming people & nearly destroying Equestria who have Terrible Excuse for being a Bad guy.

Sure, she may sometimes improve a little more depending on who she's interacting with mostly Trixie, Spike, and sometimes Sunburst but still, even that alone can't save her from being a badly-executed "redemptive villain" cliche that really overstayed her welcome in the MLP Show.

So how would you have fixed Starlight's redemption if you were forced at gunpoint to do a Starlight redemption story?

[Iforgotmybrain 5,521]

I love Starlight personally. I only really have one complaint about her arc/story/whatever you want to call it.

That being, her reasoning and justification for starting Our Town is really weak and is imo a big missed opportunity by the writers. They could’ve easily had a storyline about how Starlight was treated poorly by her peers because of her cutie mark, her family being poor, even just have Starlight being bullied as a foal like the CMC were before they got their cutie marks. Whatever, anything along those lines would fit really well into the theme and “equality” spin of Our Town and would’ve served as a better justification for how Starlight acts.

Edited June 21 by Iforgotmybrain
Typo

[The Equestria Goth 31]

I love Starlight very much. Twilight and I have taught her so many friendship lessons over the years. She and I have become great friends and her past has been long forgotten and forgiven. One of the proudest moments of my life was 4 years ago when I discovered that she was actually Twilight’s long lost sister (that’s a story for another time). Right after discovering this, she became and alicorn and is now the 2nd princess of friendship along with Twilight. They have become known around Equestria as The Royal Friendship Sisters (or The Friendship Sisters). Ever since she and Twilight have become closer than ever before. I’m so proud of Starlight and I am proud to call her my friend.

[Ring Team 123]

Great, now we have roleplay comments. Just what we needed. xD

 

4 hours ago, SunsetShimmerStan said:

How exactly would you have fixed Rainbow Rocks?

And how would Ponyville and the rest of Equestria find out about Starlight's actions? Cutie Map was just limited to Our Town and Cutie ReMark had different timelines so no one (aside from Twilight and Spike) even remembered what she did.

Also, didn't Diamond Tiara pretty much get shunted to the background after Crusaders of the Lost Mark, not a good comparison.

Rainbow Rocks had many problems, but overall it should be more focused on Sunset Shimmer and how she was dealing with the hatred she got because of the events of the first movie. That way the audience will relate more to Sunset, her struggle and her will to be better and the ending will be more satisfying. We don't need that much spotlight of the villains, since their only outcome is "you're the worst", "no, you're the worst" and they repeat it 50 times.

About Ponyville and Starlight, Twilight had no reason to give her a second chance, and everyone went along with it regardless of what she has done. Nobody does that in the real world. You can give me an animated TV show about colorful talking ponies with magic and fantastical creatures, but if the people in it don't act like actual PEOPLE, then that kills it for me. It's not authentic, it's not believable.

One thing it can make Starlight's redemption justified would be her not brainwashing everyone, not leading a cult she made, nothing at all. All these things would be done by another villain and she's just someone who helps her, a weak lonely pony who doesn't understand the value of friendship. Then, the villain is defeated by Twilight and her friends and Starlight would join.

Do you wanna know why this would be more compelling? Because that was done with Misty in Make your Mark. And it was great.

Diamond Tiara was shunted to the background after Crusaders of the Lost Mark because there are no more stories to tell about Diamond Tiara. Her redemption arc was done and finished in that episode. And she didn't need a pony moving away to be a villain.

[Lnx1ynight16 483]

I personally don’t mind Starlight all that much. I can understand why some people don’t like her