Victim Blaming

[PsychedelicPony 440]

I have come across many people that are rape apologists and victim blame. They say she shouldn't dress that way, she shouldn't have been drinking, etc. Others also say she wanted it when drunk, drunk=consent. Have you come across these people and what do you think? 

 

It's also found it's way into pop culture:

 

[Ribbonfree 2,383]

I don't think the song was ever supposed to be interpreted that way and it's infamous status was a result of people overreacting.

 

That said it is very prevalent in culture as a whole. It's a human trait, not being able to understand a situation from the victim's perspective. Doesn't make it any less wrong, but it's so deeply rooted into society that you're probably not seeing it change any time soon.

[Scootalove 10,689]

I haven't come across people who blame the victim. But, I've heard stories about people who don't feel or understand the victim's situation or what they went through so most of them jump to the conclusion that it's their fault.

[DubWolf 17,263]

Ehhh no. If a person is clearly already showing signs of fear of rape or saying to stop, how does that in any way mean "come at me"?

[PsychedelicPony 440]

I haven't come across people who blame the victim. But, I've heard stories about people who don't feel or understand the victim's situation or what they went through so most of them jump to the conclusion that it's their fault.

 

Ehhh no. If a person is clearly already showing signs of fear of rape or saying to stop, how does that in any way mean "come at me"?

 

 

I talked to someone 10 minutes ago that said that a girl he knew (who is also his friend) had it coming, and her fault. Apparently, according to him being high and too tired to fight someone off, means you made it happen.

[Scootalove 10,689]

I talked to someone 10 minutes ago that said that a girl he knew (who is also his friend) had it coming, and her fault. Apparently, according to him being high and too tired to fight someone off, means you made it happen.

I'm at a loss for words, maybe he doesn't understand.

[PsychedelicPony 440]

I'm at a loss for words, maybe he doesn't understand.

 

I tried to tell him, that by blaming the victim not only is that morally wrong, but also by consequence justifies the rape and allows the rapist to be free of fault. He ended up just yelling at me over and over again it was her fault and I quote "being to tired to realize a **** was inside her and she didn't do anything." Did he ever ponder the point that maybe she Couldn't do anything? That's my question.

[Scootalove 10,689]

I tried to tell him, that by blaming the victim not only is that morally wrong, but also by consequence justifies the rape and allows the rapist to be free of fault. He ended up just yelling at me over and over again it was her fault and I quote "being to tired to realize a **** was inside her and she didn't do anything." Did he ever ponder the point that maybe she Couldn't do anything? That's my question.

He didn't think about that, I don't know why at all. I think he ignored the real answer that you gave him.

[PsychedelicPony 440]

He didn't think about that, I don't know why at all. I think he ignored the real answer that you gave him.

 

Yeah he was too stubborn to realize the consequences of his actions. I guess that's what happens when rape becomes "commonplace" and becomes a punchline. People think Blurred Lines is fine because people don't understand that drunk does not equal consent morally or in the eyes of the law.

[FoqueMe 44]

I'll admit, there's been a few times when I've been in uncomfortable situations because I was pretty sure people would say it was my fault for acting in a certain manner, or say, being dumb enough to give a creep and a stalker a second chance.

 

ETA:  Can I also bring up that I've seen victim blaming not only in rape/sexual assault, but in bullying, too?  It's usually not as prevalent as the former, but it is there.

Edited April 25, 2014 by FoqueMe

[PsychedelicPony 440]

I'll admit, there's been a few times when I've been in uncomfortable situations because I was pretty sure people would say it was my fault for acting in a certain manner, or say, being dumb enough to give a creep and a stalker a second chance.

 

ETA:  Can I also bring up that I've seen victim blaming not only in rape/sexual assault, but in bullying, too?  It's usually not as prevalent as the former, but it is there.

 

I agree with the bullying thing as well. A perfect case is the boy who wasn't allowed to wear his MLP backpack anymore because it was a "trigger for bullying." Maybe they should prevent bullying not by penalizing potential victims, but being proactive, observing students, find who is bullying, and bring them to justice.

[FoqueMe 44]

I agree with the bullying thing as well. A perfect case is the boy who wasn't allowed to wear his MLP backpack anymore because it was a "trigger for bullying." Maybe they should prevent bullying not by penalizing potential victims, but being proactive, observing students, find who is bullying, and bring them to justice.

 

And it's infectious.  There's already a young boy who is actually afraid of wearing a Rainbow Dash hoodie to school because he knows it's "not acceptable".  It's ridiculous that innocent people are being punished while antisocial behavior is catered to, if not ignored entirely.

[PsychedelicPony 440]

And it's infectious.  There's already a young boy who is actually afraid of wearing a Rainbow Dash hoodie to school because he knows it's "not acceptable".  It's ridiculous that innocent people are being punished while antisocial behavior is catered to, if not ignored entirely.

 

Mhmm, there are disturbing trends in society today, people thinking Christianity is a victim in a war while it remains dominant and one of the biggest lobbies in government, people thinking racism is over and that racist jokes are acceptable, people thinking feminism is threatening to men while woman have been wronged all through history, first being treated as property like cattle, then being pidgeon holed as weak and only good for housework and raising children, finally being allowed to vote in America in 1920, finally being allowed in the workplace but still only making 60 cents to the man's dollar. It's these things that really grind my gears.

[Kay Dreamer 884]

Thank you for standing up to your friend and defending the girl. That's really ballsy of you.

 

Victim blaming is the biggest bullshit. I don't care how drunk she was or what she was wearing, if she can't consent, you keep it in your pants. If I were to flip the tables on this, it'd be like me saying "Oh, he was drunk at a beach party and not wearing a shirt, so it was totally OK for me to grope and assault him. He was asking for it." Victim blaming is never right.

 

I would not like to be left alone with this guy you speak of. Anyone capable of defending such actions is capable of perpetrating them.

[PsychedelicPony 440]

Thank you for standing up to your friend and defending the girl. That's really ballsy of you.

 

Victim blaming is the biggest bullshit. I don't care how drunk she was or what she was wearing, if she can't consent, you keep it in your pants. If I were to flip the tables on this, it'd be like me saying "Oh, he was drunk at a beach party and not wearing a shirt, so it was totally OK for me to grope and assault him. He was asking for it." Victim blaming is never right.

 

I would not like to be left alone with this guy you speak of. Anyone capable of defending such actions is capable of perpetrating them.

 

Thank you for your kind words. It's pretty commonplace for me and my inner group of friends to call out people on their stuff. We are strong believers in LGBT rights, race equality, and gender equality. I was interested to see the reception on here because I've noticed a lot of bronies (not on here but on reddit) are "Men's Rights" activists (which is total bs) and would probably take the other guy's stance as it is a rampant part of that group. I say reddit because on r/mylittlepony on the sidebar r/MensRights is linked as a friend of the subreddit which I think gives us a bad name. 

[Henny Penny Benny 936]

*sigh* I'm gonna be executed for this, but......

 

There's a false dichotomy here. People tend to see only two possibilities: either it's the perpetrator's fault or it's the victim's fault. But this is not the case. Ultimately, no matter what the situation may be, the perpetrator is responsible for his actions, but in some cases, the victim could have done more to make those actions less likely. I'll use an analogy to make a point.

 

Let's say there's a serial killer. He's killed dozens of people, and all of his victims were wearing red t-shirts and walking down Main Street late at night when he killed them. Then let's say there's John. John likes to walk down Main Street late at night wearing a red t-shirt. John has also seen the slew of murders on the news, and he knows that all the victims were killed while walking down Main Street late at night wearing red t-shirts. But John shrugs it off and continues to walk down Main Street in a red t-shirt late at night. And then, to no one's surprise, John is killed. Obviously it's ridiculous to say that John wanted to be murdered, but he was partially responsible for his own death, as he knew full well that his actions made him a likely target, and he could have easily changed his actions accordingly.

 

Another analogy: if I walk out into an electrical storm, climb the highest hill nearby, and hold up a big ol' metal rod, odds are I'm going to be struck by lightning. But I don't want to be struck by lightning, I just enjoy holding a big ol' metal rod aloft on that hill. But the lightning was going to strike something, and it was just looking for the easiest target. I knew that I would be an easy target if I held a big ol' metal rod atop that hill, and sure, lightning could still have struck elsewhere, but to some degree, I was responsible for being struck by lightning. I knew my actions increased the risk, but I did it anyway.

 

A similar principle applies to rape. If someone sets out to commit rape, he's probably going to look for an easy victim. He'll probably look for someone alone, or someone drunk, or someone who looks exhausted. And he may consider their dress, too. If he can find someone very attractive whose outfit leaves little to the imagination, he may be more likely to go after her rather than someone who's more fully covered. And that's all pretty common sense. So when a woman dresses provocatively, she's increasing risk; when she gets excessively drunk, she's increasing risk; when she walks home alone, or with a stranger, or to a stranger's home, she's increasing risk. I apologize for being insensitive here, but she's basically betting her body that no one will take advantage of her, and she's determining the odds with her decisions.

 

Of course, this doesn't apply to all cases of rape. If someone breaks into a woman's house to rape her, there was clearly no reasonable action she could have taken to avoid it. Just like if John was murdered on a business trip in an entirely different town, or if I was truck by lightning going out to check the mail, that would be a freak disaster. But the point is that, while the perpetrator is ultimately at fault for his actions, a woman's actions can choose to make herself more or less of a target, and she bears responsibility for that choice and its consequences.

 

I want to make it clear that I do not blame rape victims for being raped. I have not known anyone to go through such an horrendous ordeal, but if I did, I would not shame her or make her feel guilty. I wouldn't even bring up the idea around her. I do not believe that victims should be held responsible for the crimes committed against them. I simply wished to point out what I see as a false dichotomy which some people seem to use to avoid potential responsibility for their own potential actions.

Edited April 26, 2014 by Henny Penny Benny

[Kay Dreamer 884]

Thank you for your kind words. It's pretty commonplace for me and my inner group of friends to call out people on their stuff. We are strong believers in LGBT rights, race equality, and gender equality. I was interested to see the reception on here because I've noticed a lot of bronies (not on here but on reddit) are "Men's Rights" activists (which is total bs) and would probably take the other guy's stance as it is a rampant part of that group. I say reddit because on r/mylittlepony on the sidebar r/MensRights is linked as a friend of the subreddit which I think gives us a bad name. 

 

I've only been here a week, but I haven't seen much of that on these particular forums. Whatever the rest of the fandom is like, this place is a bastion of respectfulness. (I keep the hell away from Reddit.) Mens right is kinda hilariously sad. They basically want many of the same things feminists want, (undoing 'masculine' stereotypes, ect,) except they want to retain power over women too.

 

It's a shame such a vocal minority can tar the whole fandom like that. I was honestly quite nervous joining a 'brony' forum, but everyone I've met so far has been lovely. 

[PsychedelicPony 440]

*sigh* I'm gonna be executed for this, but......

 

There's a false dichotomy here. People tend to see only two possibilities: either it's the perpetrator's fault or it's the victim's fault. But this is not the case. Ultimately, no matter what the situation may be, the perpetrator is responsible for his actions, but in some cases, the victim could have done more to make those actions less likely. I'll use an analogy to make a point.

 

Let's say there's a serial killer. He's killed dozens of people, and all of his victims were wearing red t-shirts and walking down Main Street late at night when he killed them. Then let's say there's John. John likes to walk down Main Street late at night wearing a red t-shirt. John has also seen the slew of murders on the news, and he knows that all the victims were killed while walking down Main Street late at night wearing red t-shirts. But John shrugs it off and continues to walk down Main Street in a red t-shirt late at night. And then, to no one's surprise, John is killed. Obviously it's ridiculous to say that John wanted to be murdered, but he was partially responsible for his own death, as he knew full well that his actions made him a likely target, and he could have easily changed his actions accordingly.

 

Another analogy: if I walk out into an electrical storm, climb the highest hill nearby, and hold up a big ol' metal rod, odds are I'm going to be struck by lightning. But I don't want to be struck by lightning, I just enjoy holding a big ol' metal rod aloft on that hill. But the lightning was going to strike something, and it was just looking for the easiest target. I knew that I would be an easy target if I held a big ol' metal rod atop that hill, and sure, lightning could still have struck elsewhere, but to some degree, I was responsible for being struck by lightning. I knew my actions increased the risk, but I did it anyway.

 

A similar principle applies to rape. If someone sets out to commit rape, he's probably going to look for an easy victim. He'll probably look for someone alone, or someone drunk, or someone who looks exhausted. And he may consider their dress, too. If he can find someone very attractive whose outfit leaves little to the imagination, he may be more likely to go after her rather than someone who's more fully covered. And that's all pretty common sense. So when woman dresses provocatively, she's increasing risk; when she gets excessively drunk, she's increasing risk; when she walks home alone, or with a stranger, or to a stranger's home, she's increasing risk. I apologize for being insensitive here, but she's basically betting her body that no one will take advantage of her, and she's determining the odds with her decisions.

 

Of course, this doesn't apply to all cases of rape. If someone breaks into a woman's house to rape her, there was clearly no reasonable action she could have taken to avoid it. Just like if John was murdered on a business trip in an entirely different town, or if I was truck by lightning going out to check the mail, that would be a freak disaster. But the point is that, while the perpetrator is ultimately at fault for his actions, a woman's actions can choose to make herself more or less of a target, and she bears responsibility for that choice and its consequences.

 

What you said about rape is called being a rape apologist. You may think it "increases" their risk, but dressing provocatively you say increases the risk, but that's a patriarchal flaw in which women should dress a certain way seen fit, but it should be the woman's decision and not a scapegoat for putting the blame on both. Getting excessively drunk can happen without the person's intentions, they could be new to drinking and not understand, they could be an alcoholic which is a disease and addiction that is almost impossible to control without help. I think the idea that being drunk puts a woman at risk also puts the patriarchy on blast, people shouldn't have to fear doing things a lot of people do and men do too, it's just more socially acceptable for men to be excessively drunk which is wrong. I think the risk thing doesn't really matter, people should know not to rape and if a woman gets raped you can't use those reasons as an excuse. Many woman across America are unable to have their rapists brought to justice because police officers, judges, and the like use these reasons as making it okay. 

I've only been here a week, but I haven't seen much of that on these particular forums. Whatever the rest of the fandom is like, this place is a bastion of respectfulness. (I keep the hell away from Reddit.) Mens right is kinda hilariously sad. They basically want many of the same things feminists want, (undoing 'masculine' stereotypes, ect,) except they want to retain power over women too.

 

It's a shame such a vocal minority can tar the whole fandom like that. I was honestly quite nervous joining a 'brony' forum, but everyone I've met so far has been lovely. 

 

Yeah I made sure to mention the forum as not part of that because I haven't seen that on here. But others in the fandom are like that and put a black mark on it.

[Taviscratch 453]

I have never seen this at all here in Britain. We take rape and other sex crimes very seriously and offer a lot of support for the victims. As for the whole drunk=consent thing though, there are two different types in my mind.

1) A guy plies a woman with booze all night and gets her so wasted she has no idea what is going on where upon he takes sexual advantage of her.

2) A woman gets drunk of her own volition and has consenting sex with a guy due to her inebriation. In the morning she either can't remember consenting or regrets the fact she did have sex with this random man.

 

The first one is rape and the victim should not be blamed in any way. The guy should get his just deserts. Ironically though, this happened to a mate of mine (a guy) who was plied with drinks by some girl until he had no idea what the hell was going on, she took him home, offered him a glass of water and some painkillers (actually Viagra) and she proceeded to take sexual advantage of him. He never went to the police because it is deemed legally impossible for a woman to rape a man...but she managed it.

 

As for the second one, there is no victim because there is no crime. This is not a woman getting raped, it is a woman getting too drunk and doing something she regrets once sober. We've all done something stupid while drunk and this is just one of them. They guy could be just as drunk and just as regretful in the morning.

 

That been said, no woman should ever be made to feel that she deserved to be raped. If it does happen then she should get full support, therapy if needed and the rapist should get their just deserts.

[PsychedelicPony 440]

I have never seen this at all here in Britain. We take rape and other sex crimes very seriously and offer a lot of support for the victims. As for the whole drunk=consent thing though, there are two different types in my mind.

1) A guy plies a woman with booze all night and gets her so wasted she has no idea what is going on where upon he takes sexual advantage of her.

2) A woman gets drunk of her own volition and has consenting sex with a guy due to her inebriation. In the morning she either can't remember consenting or regrets the fact she did have sex with this random man.

 

The first one is rape and the victim should not be blamed in any way. The guy should get his just deserts. Ironically though, this happened to a mate of mine (a guy) who was plied with drinks by some girl until he had no idea what the hell was going on, she took him home, offered him a glass of water and some painkillers (actually Viagra) and she proceeded to take sexual advantage of him. He never went to the police because it is deemed legally impossible for a woman to rape a man...but she managed it.

 

As for the second one, there is no victim because there is no crime. This is not a woman getting raped, it is a woman getting too drunk and doing something she regrets once sober. We've all done something stupid while drunk and this is just one of them. They guy could be just as drunk and just as regretful in the morning.

 

That been said, no woman should ever be made to feel that she deserved to be raped. If it does happen then she should get full support, therapy if needed and the rapist should get their just deserts.

 

With the second instance I think the crucial part is that regardless of who got who drunk in the eyes of the law if one of parties is not in control of their faculties or not sober in anyway consent is void and can't be given. So even though you may think it was a woman having a drunk mistake, it's still rape. Also think about this, it's easy to tell if someone is too drunk, even if she drank herself that way, the man made the conscious choice to say, "I know she's really drunk, but I'm going to have sex with her anyway"

[Henny Penny Benny 936]

What you said about rape is called being a rape apologist. You may think it "increases" their risk, but dressing provocatively you say increases the risk, but that's a patriarchal flaw in which women should dress a certain way seen fit, but it should be the woman's decision and not a scapegoat for putting the blame on both. Getting excessively drunk can happen without the person's intentions, they could be new to drinking and not understand, they could be an alcoholic which is a disease and addiction that is almost impossible to control without help. I think the idea that being drunk puts a woman at risk also puts the patriarchy on blast, people shouldn't have to fear doing things a lot of people do and men do too, it's just more socially acceptable for men to be excessively drunk which is wrong. I think the risk thing doesn't really matter, people should know not to rape and if a woman gets raped you can't use those reasons as an excuse. Many woman across America are unable to have their rapists brought to justice because police officers, judges, and the like use these reasons as making it okay. 

 

I don't think anything excuses rape. Nothing at all. Nada. Zip. Zilch. If someone commits rape, he ought to be punished for it.

 

And I don't disagree with you that "people should know not to rape", but the fact is that people still do rape. That's just a fact, Jack, and people should act accordingly until such a time as it ceases to be true. There are plenty of things in the world that should be better, but they're not, and they're not going to be any time soon, so it's our responsibility to take precautions against the shit in the world. It's like saying "Gamblers aren't at all responsible for losing everything they have to gambling, because people should know better than to set up casinos."

 

People should know not to rape, or to murder, or to steal, or to do a plethora of other atrocities, but they do such things anyway, and if we don't take reasonable precautions against being on the receiving end of all that stuff, that's on us.

[Taviscratch 453]

With the second instance I think the crucial part is that regardless of who got who drunk in the eyes of the law if one of parties is not in control of their faculties or not sober in anyway consent is void and can't be given. So even though you may think it was a woman having a drunk mistake, it's still rape. Also think about this, it's easy to tell if someone is too drunk, even if she drank herself that way, the man made the conscious choice to say, "I know she's really drunk, but I'm going to have sex with her anyway"

What I meant was two people getting equally wasted of their own volition and having consenting sex (possibly even instigated by the woman), not a sober man taking advantage of a drunk woman. Just because one or more parties regret their actions or can't remember consenting doesn't make it rape.

[PsychedelicPony 440]

What I meant was two people getting equally wasted of their own volition and having consenting sex (possibly even instigated by the woman), not a sober man taking advantage of a drunk woman. Just because one or more parties regret their actions or can't remember consenting doesn't make it rape.

 

I understand where you are coming from, that's why I have my own kind of code, I only have sex with someone if we are inebriated, if 1. we aren't that drunk and 2. we have had consensual sex while sober.

[Henny Penny Benny 936]

With the second instance I think the crucial part is that regardless of who got who drunk in the eyes of the law if one of parties is not in control of their faculties or not sober in anyway consent is void and can't be given. So even though you may think it was a woman having a drunk mistake, it's still rape. Also think about this, it's easy to tell if someone is too drunk, even if she drank herself that way, the man made the conscious choice to say, "I know she's really drunk, but I'm going to have sex with her anyway"

 

The fact is, though, that getting drunk beyond the ability to think straight is still an active choice, and you're just as responsible for what you do after getting yourself wasted as you are for what you do sober.

[Taviscratch 453]

I understand where you are coming from, that's why I have my own kind of code, I only have sex with someone if we are inebriated, if 1. we aren't that drunk and 2. we have had consensual sex while sober.

That's a good rule to follow. Drunk sex isn't great anyway, it's a nightmare XD I guess I follow similar rules but I never really thought about it. I just follow my gut feeling and intuition I guess. Besides, these days, if I'm having sex with anyone, drunk or otherwise, it's my girlfriend so it's not really like I have to worry about what's rape and what isn't.

The fact is, though, that getting drunk beyond the ability to think straight is still an active choice, and you're just as responsible for what you do after getting yourself wasted as you are for what you do sober.

Exactly!

Edited April 26, 2014 by Taviscratch