What I’m curious about is if they can transform into anything, how come their magic if they become a unicorn remains that neon green color? Aside from the occasional eye reflection giving themselves away, you don’t really see a whole lot of indicators that some creature is actually a Changeling.

I know what you said earlier about their abilities, but I always thought it was strange that they didn’t at least obtain the aura color of who they were impersonating and keep their own magic style (so no waves or sparkles).

49 minutes ago, ExplosionMare said:

What I’m curious about is if they can transform into anything, how come their magic if they become a unicorn remains that neon green color? Aside from the occasional eye reflection giving themselves away, you don’t really see a whole lot of indicators that some creature is actually a Changeling.

I know what you said earlier about their abilities, but I always thought it was strange that they didn’t at least obtain the aura color of who they were impersonating and keep their own magic style (so no waves or sparkles).

I suppose it's just an inconvenience of the transforming magic itself. After all they otherwise would have no flaws whatsoever in their evolutionary adaptation, which seems to be the case for changelings at least as species. They take inspiration on the folklore changelings which are basically trolls with magic that leave their ugly babies in place of a human newborn and the only way to know they are trolls is because they are mean and ugly until they mature into a troll. Other type of changelings, according to the different interpretations, are more like fairies that would just steal the babies, no replacement.

But they also take inspiration from bugs that disguise themselves in nature giving them their deceiving abilities, like stick bugs, leaf bugs, even mantices or leaf butterflies. 

So as ponies is concerned it could just be a failure in their natural biology or an oversight, just like how you could know if your baby is a changeling troll (not perfect but it's something). Maybe magic can't really change color because it's internal and independent from how they look. Like a chemical reaction or a personal aura that can't be replicated. What does seem to change though is their magic color when they either have bad intentions or are being aggresive, or like when they have darkness in their heart??? For example in their corrupted form their magic is green but post reformed their magic is cyan. Why would it revert according to mood. Well see the examples above? Thorax normally has cyan magic even in his corrupted form, the only time it changed to green was when he attacked Amber. It could have been an animation error but it does seem to indicate something since the cyan magic he gave has always been intentional.

I never noticed the cyan magic. That’s pretty interesting!

Simple: lings can copy physical attributes but not the magic itself, so all abilities stemming from magic cannot be used. If someone was to drain a transformed changeling, the magic that would come out would be changeling magic.  If that was not the case and their magic would transform along with their bodies, then they would lose the ability to change back.

1 hour ago, Goat-kun said:

Simple: lings can copy physical attributes but not the magic itself, so all abilities stemming from magic cannot be used. If someone was to drain a transformed changeling, the magic that would come out would be changeling magic.  If that was not the case and their magic would transform along with their bodies, then they would lose the ability to change back.

 

The first one is a possibility. Though, every time Chrysalis changed to a unicorn or even an alicorn she is able to use magic and magical spells regardless even if they are her own. Her magical aura even changes shape from just glowy to glowy and wavy, typical sign of a unicorns magic. So I would assume that the only condition is that the creature they are copying must have a magical outlet similar to their own in order to make use of it. Still, even if not, if they copy something that grants them physical similarities then why wouldn't they be able to learn how to use those physical attributes. Like for example you must have a horn in order to perform magic in the case of unicorns and similar creatures not because of the horn itself but because unicorn's horns are made of a special material like alicorn (the dust substance, not the fan given name to what it would be a pony with wings and horn) which is what makes them create that magic in the first place(otherwise any creature with horns would be able to do magic like nobody's business), including the magic inherent of that species itself since we have seen that there's a magical component inherent to the creatures forms themselves in order to be, speaking of manticores, bugbears and such. If a unicorn looses their horn their magic gets affected, reinforcing the theory that is their physical attributes, the materials themselves to channel that magic into the different outcomes, the ones that grants them those abilities, like Tempest. And if a changeling is able to copy those physical attributes then they should have no problem other than learn how to activate them. 

The other one is not really backed up. We have seen that example, kinda, with Rockhoof. We assumed he just permanently transformed his body into this big Scottish pony horse forever so when Tirek absorbed his magic he would just stay the same but he reverted back to a little pony kid. So what's up with that. I think then that if changeling magic is drained they would always revert to their original form since it's their own magic that is maintaining the transformation like a spell. 

1 hour ago, Ittoni said:

The first one is a possibility. Though, every time Chrysalis changed to a unicorn or even an alicorn she is able to use magic and magical spells regardless even if they are her own. Her magical aura even changes shape from just glowy to glowy and wavy, typical sign of a unicorns magic. So I would assume that the only condition is that the creature they are copying must have a magical outlet similar to their own in order to make use of it. Still, even if not, if they copy something that grants them physical similarities then why wouldn't they be able to learn how to use those physical attributes. Like for example you must have a horn in order to perform magic in the case of unicorns and similar creatures not because of the horn itself but because unicorn's horns are made of a special material like alicorn (the dust substance, not the fan given name to what it would be a pony with wings and horn) which is what makes them create that magic in the first place(otherwise any creature with horns would be able to do magic like nobody's business), including the magic inherent of that species itself since we have seen that there's a magical component inherent to the creatures forms themselves in order to be, speaking of manticores, bugbears and such. If a unicorn looses their horn their magic gets affected, reinforcing the theory that is their physical attributes, the materials themselves to channel that magic into the different outcomes, the ones that grants them those abilities, like Tempest. And if a changeling is able to copy those physical attributes then they should have no problem other than learn how to activate them. 

We're getting very deep into it, but the gist of the matter is: the source of magic is your spirit body, not your material one, and changelings cannot change that. They cannot produce the type of magic that unicorns have; however, their magic is somewhat similar to unicorn magic. The horn itself is just a tool that helps channel and focus magical energy, but it is not an "organ" that produces magic.

1 hour ago, Ittoni said:

The other one is not really backed up. We have seen that example, kinda, with Rockhoof. We assumed he just permanently transformed his body into this big Scottish pony horse forever so when Tirek absorbed his magic he would just stay the same but he reverted back to a little pony kid. So what's up with that. I think then that if changeling magic is drained they would always revert to their original form since it's their own magic that is maintaining the transformation like a spell. 

Not necessarily since what happens with Rockhoof, Tirek, and even Spike are status buffs not a metamorphosis spell. They use enhancing magic and when you dispel that they revert to their depowered state.

33 minutes ago, Goat-kun said:

We're getting very deep into it, but the gist of the matter is: the source of magic is your spirit body, not your material one, and changelings cannot change that. They cannot produce the type of magic that unicorns have; however, their magic is somewhat similar to unicorn magic. The horn itself is just a tool that helps channel and focus magical energy, but it is not an "organ" that produces magic.

 

Not necessarily since what happens with Rockhoof, Tirek, and even Spike are status buffs not a metamorphosis spell. They use enhancing magic and when you dispel that they revert to their depowered state.

 

As far as we know that seapony transformation, the rock transformations and the unicorn magic changed the game entirely and we should ask if it's the tool or the components that make them BE the thing they are copying and not an illusion or a chameleoninc change like Mistique kind of powers, who can only change her appearance rearranging her chemical composition but it doesn't affect her strength or abilities because they come from what she already has by her own training, which in the case of changelings that does change and it comes from the transformation of the creature itself, not from themselves since they are not naturally strong and they must transform into another creature to get that power and abilities. If that were the case the magical glow from the unicorn magic of a transformed changeling would stay the same and just glow, not glow wave and sparkle like unicorn's do, and it wouldn't be logical or maybe even too complicated to somehow make the magic itself change too because how would you even manipulate that effect. Chryssi is intelligent but she cannot plan that far into her schemes either, it does seem like it's more of a natural reaction. And by that I'm not meaning that a changeling can just transform into Star Swirl for the first time and instantly get access to time travel, that would be absurd, I'm just saying that in that case they would just be a unicorn lvl 0 that looks like Swirly like if it were his twin, and if any magic comes from it it would be the changeling's spells but since unicorn and changeling magic is very similar there wouldn't be problem on casting what they already know but the magic itself would be that of a unicorn, they are just the same energy type.

Do you have evidence with what the show offers?

1 hour ago, Goat-kun said:

 

 

 

Been thinking about your explanation for the magic and it does seem possible but there's not enough evidence for both my interpretation or yours to get a concrete answer. I wish the show had given us more to work with but we only have possibilities and our own imagination. We can't declare a truth from it as it is so, truce? We can both be right with the same evidence since there's no more if it. 

22 hours ago, Ittoni said:

As far as we know that seapony transformation, the rock transformations and the unicorn magic changed the game entirely and we should ask if it's the tool or the components that make them BE the thing they are copying and not an illusion or a chameleoninc change like Mistique kind of powers, who can only change her appearance rearranging her chemical composition but it doesn't affect her strength or abilities because they come from what she already has by her own training, which in the case of changelings that does change and it comes from the transformation of the creature itself, not from themselves since they are not naturally strong and they must transform into another creature to get that power and abilities. If that were the case the magical glow from the unicorn magic of a transformed changeling would stay the same and just glow, not glow wave and sparkle like unicorn's do, and it wouldn't be logical or maybe even too complicated to somehow make the magic itself change too because how would you even manipulate that effect. Chryssi is intelligent but she cannot plan that far into her schemes either, it does seem like it's more of a natural reaction. And by that I'm not meaning that a changeling can just transform into Star Swirl for the first time and instantly get access to time travel, that would be absurd, I'm just saying that in that case they would just be a unicorn lvl 0 that looks like Swirly like if it were his twin, and if any magic comes from it it would be the changeling's spells but since unicorn and changeling magic is very similar there wouldn't be problem on casting what they already know but the magic itself would be that of a unicorn, they are just the same energy type.

Do you have evidence with what the show offers?

For starters, Chrysalis can do basic things than any unicorn can even in her true form while other changelings don't seem to be able to do them. And for magic to be linked to a "spirit body" and not to a physical form, I say the evidence is in the color of magic, not in its pattern. The pattern can change due to many environmental factors, with one of them being a unicorn horn (here I regard flesh and bone as external factors in regards to aethereal realm). I suppose that magic would indeed have a different field if channeled through a ling's horn, but other qualities and thus the effects of the magic itself remain the same, so one can assume that the source of magic also remains the same.

If it looks like a status buff and if it functions like a status buff, then it probably is a status buff.

56 minutes ago, Goat-kun said:

For starters, Chrysalis can do basic things than any unicorn can even in her true form while other changelings don't seem to be able to do them. And for magic to be linked to a "spirit body" and not to a physical form, I say the evidence is in the color of magic, not in its pattern. The pattern can change due to many environmental factors, with one of them being a unicorn horn (here I regard flesh and bone as external factors in regards to aethereal realm). I suppose that magic would indeed have a different field if channeled through a ling's horn, but other qualities and thus the effects of the magic itself remain the same, so one can assume that the source of magic also remains the same.

 

 

 

If it looks like a status buff and if it functions like a status buff, then it probably is a status buff.

 

I think I don't completely understand what do you mean by "spirit body" in the first place... Or status buff for that matter, I don't play many videogames like MMOs. But I'm trying.

Trying to define "spirit body and physical form", I know that every creature has their own personal aura, so to speak which to my understanding would be like "spirit body", and that influences the color of their magic as individuals. The color of the changeling's magic is green (arguably cyan post reformation) even when they transform into other things that color remains but I would argue that it does so first because ALL changelings have the same magic color since when they transform their magic is the same color (either green or cyan) for every one of them. Individuality is a bit overrated when you are a swarm and even later a pack, less dramatic since post reformation they are more free to be individuals but being together as a hive, working together as one is part of who they are as creatures. 

Since they are not occupying another body of an individual, they are copying it exactly for themselves, their spirit or aura would be that of themselves. Therefore having the same color which is true.... I don't see how that contradicts what I explained in the main post. 

Speaking at status buffs or debuffs as I'll explain, let's look at Discord and Big Mac for a second. We have seen how a status buff can be applied when Discord grants Big Mac a horn for the Ogres and Oubliettes game. If it was only a status buff he wouldn't be able to perform magic because as an earth pony he doesn't posses magic like that of unicorns of his own. He would just be able to use it as a piercing weapon. But he actually uses it to perform magic he doesn't have and with his supposed own aura, not Discord's or other. 

I would argue that is both the physical devise and their own magic. Is both physical and spirit. Either way we cannot really demonstrate it with changelings in particular because there's no more examples of magic like that of unicorns, even from other species or animals to compare which we would need them to transform into Tirek and see them absorb magic, or a kirin and aside from skip in the water see them grow a plant. The show ended and left many things incomplete. That's why it's a theory and speculation. 

Do you have evidence of this ethereal realm or for why the magic could change in regards to changelings?

25 minutes ago, Ittoni said:

I think I don't completely understand what do you mean by "spirit body" in the first place... Or status buff for that matter, I don't play many videogames like MMOs. But I'm trying.

Trying to define "spirit body and physical form", I know that every creature has their own personal aura, so to speak which to my understanding would be like "spirit body", and that influences the color of their magic as individuals. The color of the changeling's magic is green (arguably cyan post reformation) even when they transform into other things that color remains but I would argue that it does so first because ALL changelings have the same magic color since when they transform their magic is the same color (either green or cyan) for every one of them. Individuality is a bit overrated when you are a swarm and even later a pack, less dramatic since post reformation they are more free to be individuals but being together as a hive, working together as one is part of who they are as creatures. 

Since they are not occupying another body of an individual, they are copying it exactly for themselves, their spirit or aura would be that of themselves. Therefore having the same color which is true.... I don't see how that contradicts what I explained in the main post. 

Speaking at status buffs or debuffs as I'll explain, let's look at Discord and Big Mac for a second. We have seen how a status buff can be applied when Discord grants Big Mac a horn for the Ogres and Oubliettes game. If it was only a status buff he wouldn't be able to perform magic because as an earth pony he doesn't posses magic like that of unicorns of his own. He would just be able to use it as a piercing weapon. But he actually uses it to perform magic he doesn't have and with his supposed own aura, not Discord's or other. 

I would argue that is both the physical devise and their own magic. Is both physical and spirit. Either way we cannot really demonstrate it with changelings in particular because there's no more examples of magic like that of unicorns, even from other species or animals to compare which we would need them to transform into Tirek and see them absorb magic, or a kirin and aside from skip in the water see them grow a plant. The show ended and left many things incomplete. That's why it's a theory and speculation. 

Status buff is when you increase armor, strength, resistance etc.

In magic, there are usually two worlds (actually they are three but let's leave the third one out of this): the material realm where all physical things are manifested, and the spirit realm where all spirit bodies and magical energies reside. Spirit bodies, one might call them souls, communicate with the material with the help of physical vessels they are linked with. Magic flows in and out of the spirit body, and depending on its quality, can be used by the spirit to influence either realm. Dreamscape can be regarded as a sort of border between the two.

I'd argue that Discord's game followed similar rules as dreamscape and all abilities from that realm can be discarded.

3 hours ago, Goat-kun said:

Status buff is when you increase armor, strength, resistance etc.

 

 

 

In magic, there are usually two worlds (actually they are three but let's leave the third one out of this): the material realm where all physical things are manifested, and the spirit realm where all spirit bodies and magical energies reside. Spirit bodies, one might call them souls, communicate with the material with the help of physical vessels they are linked with. Magic flows in and out of the spirit body, and depending on its quality, can be used by the spirit to influence either realm. Dreamscape can be regarded as a sort of border between the two.

 

 

 

I'd argue that Discord's game followed similar rules as dreamscape and all abilities from that realm can be discarded.

 

Ok.

I think what you're trying to explain here needs it's own post and theory because I can see that you've thought a lot about it in regards to the show and how that logic could be applied in mlp but it's too complex to have had that developed already to try to explain my own interpretation of it. I would like to see it though in a blog post or something. Maybe in the forums and we can discuss it with others. 

7 hours ago, Ittoni said:

Ok.

I think what you're trying to explain here needs it's own post and theory because I can see that you've thought a lot about it in regards to the show and how that logic could be applied in mlp but it's too complex to have had that developed already to try to explain my own interpretation of it. I would like to see it though in a blog post or something. Maybe in the forums and we can discuss it with others. 

For someone who goes around claiming that they are a forsaken loremaster I have to earn my keep

Let's just say that it's partly a hypothesis and partly a reverse-engineered basic foundation of modern magic systems that exists or can be applied to any work involving magic and fantasy. Basically, it's the cabbalistic tree of life. Indeed, this is way too complex for FIM. Also, it has quirks that many Bronies would find unacceptable: it behaves like a natural system and not like human society. However, G4 is dead and we need a system. Kid show argument people can go fly a kite.

11 minutes ago, Goat-kun said:

For someone who goes around claiming that they are a forsaken loremaster I have to earn my keep

 

 

 

Let's just say that it's partly a hypothesis and partly a reverse-engineered basic foundation of modern magic systems that exists or can be applied to any work involving magic and fantasy. Basically, it's the cabbalistic tree of life. Indeed, this is way too complex for FIM. Also, it has quirks that many Bronies would find unacceptable: it behaves like a natural system and not like human society.

 

No, I'm just tired that you just argue without bases from the show itself making references to things that don't have anything to do with it and using concepts completely foreign to the show itself to try to make a case for the sake of winning. If you could apply them to the show and demonstrate that that is intentional then I would take it seriously but uh... you are not as clever as you think you are.

17 hours ago, Ittoni said:

No, I'm just tired that you just argue without bases from the show itself making references to things that don't have anything to do with it and using concepts completely foreign to the show itself to try to make a case for the sake of winning. If you could apply them to the show and demonstrate that that is intentional then I would take it seriously but uh... you are not as clever as you think you are.

Damn it, this is not a competition. This is not about being clever. It's about a hypothesis. It's a heated discussion about all the possible mechanisms employed in fantasy. So far I have not seen a better one that would suit such a world, especially since it has no mechanisms of its own. Do you have a better system? By all means, bring it out. Let's put it apart and see what makes it tick. I designed all of this because I was bored and tired of all the inconsistent bullshit, and now you accuse me just wanting to win some shitty debate. Sweetie pie, it can never be won since all of this is subjective, that is why talking about it without making shit up is also meaningless. You want the hardboiled truth? Our glorious writers and H-Bro do not care about this stuff. There is no magic system. All of it is only there for the plot and to sell more toys. That's it. Buck this shit. I'm out.

1 hour ago, Goat-kun said:

Damn it, this is not a competition. This is not about being clever. It's about a hypothesis. It's a heated discussion about all the possible mechanisms employed in fantasy. So far I have not seen a better one that would suit such a world, especially since it has no mechanisms of its own. Do you have a better system? By all means, bring it out. Let's put it apart and see what makes it tick. I designed all of this because I was bored and tired of all the inconsistent bullshit, and now you accuse me just wanting to win some shitty debate. Sweetie pie, it can never be won since all of this is subjective, that is why talking about it without making shit up is also meaningless. You want the hardboiled truth? Our glorious writers and H-Bro do not care about this stuff. There is no magic system. All of it is only there for the plot and to sell more toys. That's it. Buck this shit. I'm out.

 

"For someone who goes around claiming that they are a forsaken loremaster I have to earn my keep "

Perhaps you took it the wrong way because in no way or form I've established that I'm an expert on lore. I don't go around flailing my dick in the forums like others you might know. I don't understand why you got so confrontational if it in fact is just a cartoon about colourful magical horses. Relax hombre. Learn to talk and not wave that dick around that much in people's faces about how much you "won this round" if it's not a competition. Geez. 

9 minutes ago, Ittoni said:

Perhaps you took it the wrong way because in no way or form I've established that I'm an expert on lore. I don't go around flailing my dick in the forums like others you might know. I don't understand why you got so confrontational if it in fact is just a cartoon about colourful magical horses. Relax hombre. Learn to talk and not wave that dick around that much in people's faces about how much you "won this round" if it's not a competition. Geez. 

I shall flail my dick around however I please, thank you Address the content, not the organs. And yes, it's just a show, brah, so I fail to understand your outburst. I honestly thought this was a different kind of discussion. It seems I was wrong. Next time I'll just bring my usual "Harmony is eldritch" memes and we'll all be happy.

1 minute ago, Goat-kun said:

I shall flail my dick around however I please, thank you Address the content, not the organs. And yes, it's just a show, brah, so I fail to understand your outburst. I honestly thought this was a different kind of discussion. It seems I was wrong. Next time I'll just bring my usual "Harmony is eldritch" memes and we'll all be happy.

 

don't expect people to act kindly or tolerant then.