BalanceBrony

Thank you. Well, increasingly I've been getting less concerned with how "real" belief systems are and instead more concerned with what emerges from them. Your belief systems affect your behavior in an input-output kind of way (be sure to also consider your own physiological responses as output). So far it looks like destiny is the more beneficial belief system though right now I'm wondering if my argument on it may be truncated.

While shortening your argument can be good at times, make sure you preserve the long form somewhere. If you become too familiar with it, some aspects might just become accepted in your paradigm. But to other people, things you have accepted might require elaboration. Whenever I first make a solid argument, I copy and paste it into word, then save it. That way, if I ever get into a more intense debate, I will have the more thorough argument to reference.

Just going to say this first and foremost; I only watched the video. I'm up early because I couldn't sleep because of a loud thunderstorm.

 

Alright then. What I found really interesting is what grows out of each belief system. Destiny vs the American dream/free will. Let's start with the latter; it was mentioned that people can change, that they have control in their lives. Pretty easy to see how this judgmental "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" mentality emerged from it. It also means that you don't really have flaws but instead they are seen as you making flawed choices or choosing to be flawed if you prove to have an inability to change for the better at practically a whim. Unless you attain absolute perfection, there's always something to be ashamed of because it is your choice to do what it takes to eliminate your flaws, no matter how tiny.

 

Now for what emerges from the belief of Destiny. What really got me intrigued was how from this belief emerge a greater disposition to accept people as they are which also makes it easier for individuals to accept themselves for who they are -- to be satisfied with the contributions you make be they big or small. What I see this doing is also give ponies better protection against self-loathing and therefor protects them from all the detrimental health effects that comes with chronic self-loathing. It may also protect ponies from feeling jealousy since the concept of destiny makes it much easier to accept that some people are better at certain things than you are. Another thing I see emerging from this is that it also gets ponies to pursue their own interests and passions much more readily and go after their own potential without having to care as much about how they will compare to others. I think what gives many people nightmares is doing your best without it ending up being good enough which will give the message that they are not good enough. Another thing this belief system can give more protection against is going too far in trying to be someone or something you are in fact not (which is also bad for your health it turns out).

 

My conclusion to this is that this concept of destiny is a belief that is much more healthy to hold than free will. The finer details to this idea needs to be worked out though.

Ahh. Free will vs. destiny. I never looked at it in terms of pros and cons. But your views in that regard do make a lot of sense. But as for the notion of one existing and not the other, well check out my response to Goodra. It sums up very nicely what my beliefs are. It's long, but I would say that, among the many posts I have made, ones as clear and thorough as that one are not very common. I won't post it again because its so long. I just wanted to make sure your valid arguments were recognised.

That's a pretty well thought out passage. I admire your ability to think all of this out as it does take alot of philosophical thinking. I'm a bit irked to really understand all of this destiny stuff as the show points out even though it's pre-determined, it CAN change based on their decisions.

But are there really decisions involved? One example I always like to point out is the idea that I have every capacity to murder somepony. It would be easy to do, and I could probably get away with it. But my nature means that I will never do it. You can argue many different points, yet looking back, could you imagine life happening any other way than the way it happened?

I can't. So many things have happened to me in life, and shaped me based on the way I naturally reacted to them. Looking back, every choice I made doesn't seem like much of a choice, as looking back I would not have chosen any different. So the point is, do we really choose? Or is the innate nature of our soul the real driving force behind out actions? Is there any going against the way that you are? Could you really choose to do something so contradictory to you that your very being fights against it?

The thing that made me believe in destiny was this train of thought. I noticed that, after reflecting on things, I would not even consider altering any of my choices. Looking back, the only right choices seemed to be the ones I made. So it seems like there really was no choice. In the moment, you may think you are making a choice, and indeed you are. But when you look at the grand scheme of things, you can only imagine it happening one way- the way that it happened.

I think this is because of the time dilution effect. As you move forward in your life, past choices seem less and less significant as time goes by. At the moment you make a decision, your brain is projecting many different possibilities. But once you go further down the path of a choice, those possibilities seem to vanish, as you begin to realise that the reality you "chose" is already so much different than the one you thought you chose. Decisions are fleeting, and in the end, when we are nearing our end, it seems like none of them really counted. Everything led up to that moment. You could not imagine your life having gone any other way.

And this is why I'm of the opinion that, though we may make fleeting choices, in the end they will become illusory. The unique eye of life's experience changes so many things. And sometimes it can be hard to imagine seeing with that eye. But I know that one day, I will see with that eye, if I don't already. But until that becomes out eye, we will remain affirmed in our views. The eye of experience has taught me that my life happened the way it did for a reason, though I do not know it yet. But as I see all of the things which led up to who I am now, and all of the interactions I've had with the web of existence, other possibilities are so infinitely far away that they do not exist for me.

Somewhere, there will be a me that made a different choice. But for the purposes of my limited paradigm, some other me universes away is irrelevant to my existence here. The me that matters is the one that is here and now, and I would not want to be any other me than the one I am, nor do I wish I made any choices that I haven't already. No regrets, no guilts. It all happened for a reason, though it yet escapes me. But I'm sure it will become clearer down the line, when my eyes of experience have become stronger. But for now, I live here, and simply press on. The past is past, and will not change, so I would not imagine any change befalling it. In the present, I will make my choices that shape the future. But once the future is nigh, even these decisions will vanish into a spiraling mist.

So, that was quite the lengthy response, I am sure, and perhaps but a little incomprehensible. I am quite tired right now. But I hope it is clear enough to get my point across. My life has taught me that destiny is real. It may turn out different for you, as everypony has different vision. But this is what works for me. And I would not change that which is not flawed in application, so far as my life is concerned. So yeah, I look forward to hearing more of your thoughts.

*WARNING: HEAVY PHILOSOPHICAL CONTENT. IF UNINTERESTED, DON'T WASTE TIME*

~Introduction~

So, the notion of destiny is one that I have always found interesting, due to the fact that my motto "Everything happens for a reason" pretty much reflects this idea- the idea that all things a part of a predetermined causal chain which is leading to something greater than any one of us. I first realised that this tied to MLP after watching Digibrony's discussion of free will. Digibrony's videos sparked some ideas in my head.

And I also decided to watch Bionicle on a whim one day, which brought about more ideas.

That being said, let us begin.

~What is Destiny?~

I feel before we truly dive into how destiny is applied to Equestrian life, it is important to note what "destiny" actually is. In any discussion, it is important to establish definitions early on, to prevent misunderstandings and smooth discussion out. As I normally do in discussion, I start with the dictionary definition:

If I met anypony, I would just stand in awe, my mind completely blown sky high. I would question my position in everything before stammering "ohmygoshohmygoshohmygoshomygosh." I would then hug the pony as hard as I can, before beginning an interrogation of what life in Equestria is like, what paradigms are held by ponykind, and just generally trying to satiate all of my curiosity. After that, hopefully we could become best pals! And then, once the pony moves on to explore our world, I would be in permanent awe of existence... if there are magical ponies out there, what other wonders could there be? The possibilities would be officially endless...

Finally, I would hope that the pony would be willing to work with me to share the good values of Equestria, and the wonder of ponies with everypony on Earth.... Just so much epicness. As for why I just said "anypony," I just can't pick a favourite.

I am a FlutterDash supporter, all the way. They are two of my favourite ponies, and their personalities would balance each other out nicely. And Balance leads to Harmony in relationships.

But sadly, making any Mane 6 shipping canon would just cause a massive uproar. Mind, FlutterDash is one of the most supported shippings as far as I've seen, but Dashie is involved in so many pairings, it would be particularly controversial, as opposed to some of the other shippings. Simply put, I don't think any Mane 6 shipping would go well as a canon, except for maybe Sparity, which is pretty much canon anyway.

My current hope is that, in the series finale, whenever that comes, we'll see FlutterDash come more out into the open. Since it would be the end of the series, Hasbro could take risks with the plot and such, as everypony would want to see it no matter what. But I don't think they would risk it before that point. The show just brings in too much dough, and the crew wants to make a lasting story. A canon shipping would rock the fandom, and a homosexual shipping would turn off many parents. A canon homosexual shipping would do both of these things, pretty much ending the show right there. So, I'd love a canon FlutterDash, but if it happens at all, it won't happen until the very end.

Nightmare Moon... A twist of those proportions would be SO *AWESOME*. The fun would most certainly be doubled.

But aside from my most common statement of NMM, I would love to see Discord again. I am currently on the fence regarding whether or not the treatment of Discord was fair. In order for me to consider Celestia's actions 100% just, I need proof to see that Discord is still allowed to be chaotic. Until I see him being treated as Chaotic Good, as opposed to being forced into Order, I will remain unsatisfied with what has happened thus far.

In fact, my headcanon is that Luna will still be evil for some reason, and proves to be more powerful than even Celestia. Then Discord teams up with the Mane Six to defeat the new threat. Then, once NMM is all but defeated, we learn that it was ALL a test... As in, the entire show was one big preparation agreed upon by the sisters, so that Twily could learn how to deal with problems, and thus become the best successor possible...

I hadn't thought of Twilight having a role in this, but it totally makes sense now. A few pages ago in this thread I suggested that Fluttershy be the one to give Scootaloo some emotional support since Fluttershy could not fly when she was Scoot's age. But now that Twilight has wings that she doesn't know how to use, I think she could be a part of Scootaloo's training too.

 

If they do decide to go the "Scootaloo can fly eventually" route, then the episode where she learns could teach a lesson about how all that glitters is not gold, and things don't always go the way you plan. Scootaloo adores Rainbow Dash. She would be thrilled to have RD as a flying teacher, But would RD be a good teacher? She has always been a great flyer, so she would have a hard time relating to Scoot's difficulty in learning, and she would probably get frustrated with her student's slow or non-existent progress. They might even have a little fight about it. If that happened, I expect that Scoot would be devastated. Twilight and Fluttershy could both be there to support her, give her the easy-going beginners training she needs, and ultimately facilitate her making up with Rainbow.

Rainbow not being the best teacher means many possibilities for a lesson to be learned from such an episode. In fact, that is precisely the reason I think this could work. Rainbow might not be patient. Or she might be hard on Scoots and Twi. Or she could be overly bossy... so many possibilities.

Yeah I know and I don't mind it at that because she's not really there. If it is a flashback then that's good because Twilight gets to see how it all happened. 

 

If it's not a flashback I think Luna might be a villain for the rest of the series which I don't want.

Maybe she wouldn't really be a villain. Maybe it would just be the largest case of this:

EVER. At least that's my current headcanon.

And even if such weren't the case, and Luna were actually evil, I highly doubt it would end with her being evil. Almost certainly it would end with her being truly cleansed of her sins. Remember, kids show= happy ending for everypony.

A kids show about friendship... Nuff said.

Besides, as a supporter of the notion that humans are inherently good, I'm all for second chances, and more. Only the direst crimes (murder, rape, torture, and other extreme acts which induce suffering) should be punished, and severely at that. Even reigns like Discord's are worth at least 1 more chance, provided no murder, rape, or torture occurred.

I'm still holding to the idea of an episode where RD gives flight lessons to both Scoots and Twily. But then again... it would be much nicer to have another Dash/Scoots episode... I'm torn on the implementation. However, I do think Scoots should fly. I don't like disability plots, having struggled with stuff in the past. Having been in a troubled situation, themes like that can almost be painful reminders of how I used to be. Plus, it would generally be a much happier plot to have Scoots fly with Dashie, using her own wings.

I don't like the idea of NMM coming back unless she completely splits off from Luna or something. I'd rather they not have her return at all.

That's what we know about NMM. It's a season 4 thing though, hence *spoiler*

Even if you do believed in my argument or not.

This debate just becomes a death trap, order is already universal.

The further we clining into the argument. We are just following a repeative pattern which kinda orderly following like a circle.

I once also believed that chaos and order are equal but after learning and observing the patterns of the universe.

I have seen seeing everything is perfectly ordered in place, no matter how much chaotic there is always order into it.

Chaos might be a rule but we don't yet know.

 

I think this argument has to end here! Stalemate has to end.

Yes. I think we should just let each other believe what we want. It is the only way there will be peace and Harmony on this thread. Either one of us can be right. We don't know. So, until more evidence comes, we just let each other think what we want. It was nice debating with you.

So, I suppose I will see ya around /)

People keep complaining that a flaw with the theory is Luna controlling the changeling army. What if she didn't sway them, deceive them or control them. What if they are Luna's subjects? The changelings do have equine traits, maybe they are just a different kind of pony alongside earth, unicorn, pegasai & crystal.

 

And perhaps this wasn't only Luna's plan. What if Luna wasn't doing this out of sinister intentions? What if this was all a test? What if Celestia was in on the whole thing? Maybe that's how she lost; on purpose. They may have all been one big test for Twilight sparkle, Cadence and Shining Armor, the newest members of Equestria's royalty, to see how they would act if the Princess were to fall.  Cadence, Armor, Twi and the rest of Canterlot may no have been in any real danger. That could explain the raising of the shield, the ineffectiveness or near total absence of the Canterlot guard.

So, what you are basically saying is this:

My friend, that makes far more sense than anything else which has been stated on this thread. It all goes back to Trollestia...

Ponies are fictional, they are not real.

Beside the more you protest against my idea, i will much more respect to that.

Countless wars and slaughters happened in human history, it happened for an unknown ordered reason.

 

Chaos may not exsist in reality but exsisting in fictional world.

And all of them governed by rules.

Discord is still being played by some rules in some occasions. The most nostorious rule is not to kill any pony!

Countless wars and slaughters... happened for an ordered reason... and yet you still say Order is inherently good, when so many bad things happen because of it? I did not think you really supported conflict, and that's where I targeted my rhetoric. But this comment shows that clearly you don't mind any level of suffering, as long as it is for Order. Even when Order is the source of the problem, you still cling to it...

What makes you so blindly believe in Order? No matter what reasoning I provide, your final point always goes back to the same thing. Your point always ends up being that Order is universal. When I ask why, you simply state again that Order is universal. You have not once adequately proven your reasoning. And any flaws in your argument which I pointed out were completely ignored.

You have not refuted any of my arguments. Are you going to spew the same thing all day, or actually answer my points?

Ponies aren't real, they are fictional and conceptial by the mind of Lauren Faust, a decent human being like everyone else.

They somehow created by Lauren in order to ease the sorrow of humans as well our violent nature.

Ponies reflecting some qualities of their creators, humans.

 

Beside ponies are just still primitive for they didn't industrialize yet but on the scale of pre-industrial revolution.

It seems the Lauren and order don't want to ponies to evolve further beside they don't have the knowledge about their creators for we are omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient.

 

No offense, balance is the equality of order and chaos while harmony is the victory of order over chaos.

Catastrophe is the domination of chaos over order for small amount of times.

 

No offense, i will consider your both's point of view.

Beside to do this experiments, it would cause a little much money or i will have to break the law to test it.

I will try if the order allows me.

They are not pre-industrial. We see electric lights, music equipment, sewing machines, factories, production devices, and whole modern cities in Equestria. They also have a well-structured economy. It's just that ponies don't need a lot of industrial things, because they have magic to do most functions.

 Harmony is =/= Pure Order. Balance is a prerequisite for Harmony to exist, and Balance requires both Order and Chaos. Here is a simple logic chain.

Balance requires Order and Chaos to be Equal.

Harmony requires Balance.

Therefore, Harmony requires Order and Chaos to be Equal.

I don't know where you are getting the idea that Order is the same as Harmony. Harmony is a philosophical concept which requires all living things to live together in Peace. What you propose is incessant conflict. "Good" must defeat "Evil." Order must supercede Chaos. But you are ignoring the fact that realistically, none of these conflicts will ever end. The answer is then to avoid conflict completely. And the only way we can do that is to choose peace... choose acceptance. Tolerate and respect each other, regardless of views.

Why do you want conflict so badly? Do you really want an endless struggle over petty differences in ideology? Do you want to set out on missions that won't be completed? The conflict will not end if you choose to pursue it. The only way we can have Harmony is if we live together in Peace... There is so much hurt and pain in the world. It is not right to cause more by starting wars which will never end. The proper thing to do is to take the high ground and say "I will not fight any more." Take the high ground and say "I accept you, even though you think differently from me. I will allow our difference, and even open my mind to your side."In fact, the right thing is to go even further and say "I will hear you, and maybe I will learn."

When God put us here, He did not say "Go out and fight. Order must rule, and slaughter anypony who disagrees!"  He only wanted us to live together, and enjoy the beauty of His existence. We were meant to be His people, and God's people are peaceful. We are not here to fight. We are here to live, grow, and learn about everything that makes life beautiful. Our purpose is to revel in God's creation. And that includes ALL aspects of His creation. We are not meant to start wars we can't win, or oppress anypony who differs from us. We are meant to accept each other, and everything that makes us beautiful. So, we should embrace Order AND Chaos, light AND dark, joy AND sadness. These things all exist for a reason. They all have their roles to play in life, and things would not be as diverse and beautiful if any of these were missing. Harmony is the Way, and the Way is beautiful.

Because we all love a good plot twist. Plus, it is a more interesting interpretation of the preview then just "oh, time travel" or "ahh, nice flashback which tells us stuff we already know."

Hiya everypony! I read the whole thread, and I noticed that nopony has brought up the season 4 sneak preview animatic.

That being said, this fact means one of two things. Either, we are going to see some kind of time travel thing, or Luna is actually evil still.

I do not see how time travelling back 1000 years would really contribute much to the future of the show. It is a repetitive plot element, and it will not add much to character development or overall storyline. I just don't see why this kind of scene would be in there, aside from instituting an epic twist to impress everypony, and teach amazing lessons about friendship (such as dealing with jealousy, and giving people multiple chances). It would also fill out some annoying plot-holes, like the inconsistency of the EoH regarding Luna. But overall, I think that the animatic should definitely be considered in this discussion.

EDIT: Ohh, and is anypony willing to speculate using the S4E1 synopsis?

But if it had to be changed, it should be changed to Tay Zonday's version of the song. EPICNESS! But for now, I think changing the vocals of the Mane 6 would be a good idea as currently they sound nothing like the actual characters. Maybe do something special and do a version with all 4 actors singing, including Tara Strong?

Without Chaos everybody would be the same, in that sense, Harmony is actually the more evil ideal. As any real unique variance in a system would technically be "Chaos", since to be unique it wouldn't have a real pattern.

 

Also, free will is a subject of Chaos, as an ideal lack of chaos would have everything working towards the same purpose, without variance.

Well, the lack of any force would really amount to a lack of variation. That's one of the whole reasons Harmony is important. Eliminate anything and you will make existence less variable, and more stale.

Your post and BalancePony's view on chaos are also assumptions if you put it that way. Since chaos is still a theory while order is already proved through law of gravity of Newton and other proven laws along with other unproven laws.

The world is balance when there is a law total overseeing everything, setting the rules to play the long soltaire game of life and death; love and hate;.....

 

I came up with these experiments after researching philosophies of many authors long ago like Geoge Orwell, Descrates,....

Lord of The Flies is the best book to illustrate the first experiment as the author believes the importance of order in society and the world.

Beside my post didn't target ponies but targetting humans, the creators of fictional world of Equestria. 

 

Human invented Good vs Evil concept first to "answer" the mysteries on the universe since we didn't crawl of caves yet.

After we crawled out caves in which fire was invented at the same times.

 

Toaster should thank Fire because fire is the beginning of human knowledge.

Yes, we are employing some assumptions too. I pointed out which things were assumptions in my above post.

It doesn't matter who said what. Just as there are examples supporting your view of human nature, there are also many examples supporting our view of human nature. It all depends on circumstances, as I mentioned above.

And as I have continually pointed out. Order =/= Balance. Pure Order is in fact contradictory to Balance. If there is too much Order, society is at risk of stagnating. Or unrest may arise. Or tyranny can occur. Or injustice can occur. We are not talking about an ideal society here, with God ruling over it and such. In the real world, prolonged or extensive Order will result in society being hurt. There needs to be some Chaos (such as freedom, rights, differences, and conflicts) or else the Order will collapse into itself, creating Chaos anyway. Pure Order eventually leads to Chaos. Pure Chaos eventually develops some Order. Given these truths, we need to work with the Universe, and not against it.

You can dislike the Universe's Way, but if you do not give into the Way, and work with it, the Way will crush you. The Way is Harmony- a peaceful coexistence between different aspects of life. The Way is Balance- a reconciliation between opposing forces. The Way is Peace, and Happiness, and the Beauty of everything in existence, whether Chaotic or Orderly. Chaos exists, and so does Order.

It's not just a case of you shouldn't try to eliminate aspects of life. You can't eliminate aspects of life. The Universe won't allow it. God made everything as it is for a reason, and everything will adhere to God's original intention for existence. Like it or not, Chaos and Order both exist because God allows them to. If it were not his will, it would not be there. Both Chaos and Order have good aspects in them. You can accept this, or deny the history which has happened, and the notions which we see working every day.

And, to let you know exactly what you need to work with: I don't believe in free will, or Good and Evil.

Fire is the start of human knowledge? In this case, I know what I'm talking about, as somepony who has studied the origins or human intelligence, via my studies as an anthropology student. There is no single event which marks the beginning of human knowledge. It was a process which developed as changing climate drove humans to new in environments, forcing us to adapt. Various evolutionary and environmental factors slowly drove us towards our extensive intellect today. It is a long chain events, some of which are speculative, which I do not feel like spelling out. All I can say is that fire is not even on the list, in most cases.

No offense, it was just my anthropological knowledge which made this irk me. When something crosses my specialities, I can't help but be nit-picky. It's the same reason I keep lashing out when you describe Balance incorrectly.

Can the protagonist get too much attention? I am not entirely sure about that. i kind of feel like season 4 might actually have her a little less prominent though. While she has a new job and stuff, her character is pretty much at its peak. So, while the roles we do see will be far more important, I think in overall screen time we will actually see a decrease in Twilight's involvement, since she is almost done developing, as opposed to the others of the Mane 6.

No. Everypony has pretty much stated it already. It would take away the value, and it would really be pointless. Although I wouldn't put it past Hasbro to do it anyway, so that they can sell 5 more toy sets.

And personally, I think it would just be weird.

^ All I see in your post is assumptions. Are you able to provide any evidence that those experiments even took place? We really have no way of knowing whether or not the first experiment would end as you say without fail. What you didn't factor in is that perhaps as they bonded together in order to survive, they would make a compromise over their ideas and discuss which one is the best one for the sake of everyone's survival because at some point, they likely realized they cannot survive on their own.

I agree I feel those examples inadequately explain their reasoning, and also inadequately answer my refutation, given that they are assumptions based on an appeal to natural state and natural law, which, if you are familiar with these concepts, you know that there are numerous interpretations. The only thing all philosophers agree on is that everypony has a natural right to preserve themselves, and that humans will do anything to survive (unless you support Locke and Rousseau, who state humans will work together as a first resort, and only turn against each other if they have exhausted all other options).

Prime's view of humanity's natural state is very Hobbesian, believing that humans are inherently bad. I disagree, believing Rousseau more, who says that humans are inherently good and will not act against each other except in extreme circumstances. I think this discrepancy will prevent the debate from progressing anywhere. And as you pointed out, different circumstances would yield different experimental results. In some cases, you might even have a full society  develop to preserve the people on the island. It all depends on the individual reasoning and nature of the people, as well as their dynamic with each other. There are too many factors to this scenario to make an adequate argument for a specific view of natural state.

The only thing you can say about human nature from this is that humans are naturally reasonable and logical, Although personally, I would say that as reasonable creatures, humans would tend towards Rousseau's view of human nature. But that is an assumption on my part.

 

 

Damn right! That is the greatest invention of all times rather than fire.

You should know that we have so far only covered 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000001 % of the rules of the universe.

There are tons of rules out there that we should know.

God don't roll dice when creating and stabilizing the world.

 

Chaos is the fragment of our freewill, it is one of our creation.

 

 

First, let's see again. Take these examples to your mind, there is a reason how did human create chaos.

 

- We put five innocient humans who don't have any knowledge of this world like the new-born babies, We put them in an isolated island that has everything for survival. Hatred, fear and sorrow don't exsist in them nor they don't know about them. These five people will start to come up with ideas for survival; they will first cooperate with each other to live. They build big houses made of woods on the island. But they will have new ideas of what to do next, each one will have different idea to each other. Everyone doesn't listen to each other but criticizing each other. Noted: They have given freewill and have no laws at all. They will spark the violent blood in them; they will chaoticly ravage the island until all other people die. In the end of all of them died as the island crumbled into chaos and destroyed into nothingness. It proved that humans are naturally violent and naturally chaotic since there is no law to restrict them around so they can think to do whatever they want.

 

- Secondly, let's see what we put rules on this time. We will put a delicious chocolate cake on a table, we specifically order the child (test subject) not to eat the cake, that is a rule. The child will first ignore the cake and know the rule of the game. He has been known as a honest-always obeyed child. The child later will be tempted by the cake, but the order restrains him with fear to prevent him. As his hunger grows stronger, he finally takes a bite of the cake. He is so clumsy in which the chocolate marks on everywhere in this house as he forgot to clean his hands. Chaos was born even there is still exsistence of order before the cake, we humans as that child.

 

Now do you see how much chaos is really corrupt? It can make the most innocient new-born kid to be driven to do an evil work against the law which his mother specifically told him not to. These five humans on the island are also just conflicted with each other in the end only leading to a chaotic bloodshed. That is what happened when we are given freewill, freewill to create chaos. Beside, order doesn't rely on chaos to exsist; order is ruling the universe by itself as there is somewhere in the universe has an infinite written laws on infinite tablet. Aristotle said: "There is nothing can beat the law." He stated that the law is always almighty and no power can stop the law to punish their sinned ones. So applying in this universe, the order created by the creator then commanding it to help humans use freewill correctly without helping its enemy, chaos.

 

 The Good/Evil duality is the greatest invention ever? Are you seriously saying that? How much simpler would life be if Good (and therefore Evil) did not exist? How much less conflict would be in the world? This moral struggle causes so much strife, philosophically, physically, and emotionally. The existence of these concepts causes so much suffering in the world. We'd be better off without either of them.

Now, as for the notion of Chaos... You still have not proven that it is a strictly human construct. In Nature, outside of human life, one can observe chaos. Chaos naturally happens, in the form of disasters, diseases, evolution, genetics, chemistry, physics, and numerous other things that would exist whether or not humans were ever created. As such, Chaos is not something emanating from human consciousness. It is a natural part of life. To claim that Chaos does not exist defies everything which has been proven in the sciences and via observation. If you are an unbiased scientist, you would see that. Chaos is undeniable, and whether humans exist or not, there would still be disasters, diseases, and all of the other things which I mentioned. And since it does exist objectively, the rest of your argument falls apart.

Cutie marks are like D&D alignments. They're not what determine what you should be, but an indication of what you're already good at. Applejack's cutie mark, for example, exists to symbolize her honesty and her loyalty to her family and the farm. It has nothing to do with her ability to applebuck. Twilight's cutie mark denotes not her talent for magic, but her talent for understanding concepts not normally comprehensible to others. Her unparalleled talent for magic is merely a consequence of this. A good indication for this is Twilight's great skill for organization, which has nothing to do with magic. It's not the cutie mark that dictates you. It's you who dictates the cutie mark, similarly to D&D alignments which are defined by your choices rather than the alignment itself telling you what to do.

 

 

 

 

I can agree with this. Granted, my understanding of Newton's laws aren't all that great. Yinyang is a much better concept to explain harmony since that is its ultimate goal. Yin and Yang both contain elements that directly oppose each other but a truly balanced and harmonious being or society cannot exist without the other. Light can't exist without dark and vice-versa for instance, for both concepts only exist because the other is there to balance it.

I don't know much about D & D, and I suppose your reasoning about the cutie marks is right. Funny how I watched The Last Roundup earlier, and was still thinking that cutie marks are utterly binding.

Yeah. I think anypony who ponders Balance goes down a similar train of thought eventually. But a problem I've always had is what I should do with the ideas I have realised. Isorropism (the philosophy of Balance) is difficult to sell to skeptics, and I still haven't found a good logic chain which can win arguments with non-isorropists. The best I've come up with still has an inherent assumption at its roots, albeit an assumption which has not yet been proven wrong. But if I could solidify this one assumption with evidence, the whole theory would work like clockwork. I would like to discuss this assumption, but it is out of place here. for the sake of our discussion, Harmony has been pretty much fleshed out.