BalanceBrony

As OP says, there seems to be some level of misunderstanding over what Harmony actually is, but I have to wonder whether or not that has to do with Equestria itself or people's perception of Equestria.

 

Harmony can be seen all around us in the natural world. Nature is neither orderly nor chaotic. It is neutral. The wind blows when it needs to just as the rain falls when it needs to. Plants grow, die, and become part of the earth once more. Animals establish their home but often don't stay in one place, birds being a good example of this. There is no overemphasis on achieving a certain state of being in society, whether that is one of absolute order or total chaos. The fact is, everything that can happen within the bounds of reality will happen, regardless of how much you try to stop it by enforcing order.

 

This, I believe, can be said to form the basis behind Newtown's law where every force will be met by an equal and opposite force. Thus you find more civil unrest in a totalitarian state which uses fear to oppress people into living by a certain fashion, which anarchistic societies often meet self-destruction when anyone and everyone is allowed to do whatever they want regardless of other people's subsequent sufferings. As OP said, Harmony is not about shutting out deviances, but welcoming them and adapting to new environments all the while maintaining a level of respect for your surroundings and the people you see.

 

But how much does all this have to do with Equestria? Throughout the series you don't really get a sense of order being enforced on anyone, especially when every individual has virtually complete free reign over what they want to do in their lives from an early age. Despite this very chaotic aspect of Equestrian society, a very good degree of order is maintained. This is indeed because harmony is achieved among its citizens. Outliers such as Discord and Chrysalis do exist. Discord, to me, was never outright evil, but his form of chaos wanted to shut out everything that was orderly. His aim was to disrupt harmony, not order. Not even Chrysalis can be said to be outright evil, but defending Canterlot was necessary purely for the fact that her people's survival depended almost entirely on the extermination of Equestrian society.

Well, I would argue that free will isn't even truly existent in Equestrian society. You have your cutie mark, which determines your purpose in life, and no matter what you try or may be good at, you have only one duty to fulfill in society, and that is the duty prescribed by your cutie mark. Mind, this is not something instituted by choice. It is just the nature of ponies.

Regarding your point about Newton's law, I have actually been down this train of thought many times, regarding Harmony and Balance. After much dialectic with various other philosophically minded people, I reached the conclusion that, while all things strive towards a relatively equal state, the causal chain is very much different  from the notion of equal-but-opposite.

In essence, Balance works like this. In a given duality, represented by the Yin Yang, the two opposing forces tug equally on each other. The actual process is more complex, but in essence that is what is occurring. At face value, equal-but-opposite vs. push-and-pull seem very similar causally. But in actuality, there is a crucial distinction. Equal-but-opposite is more along the lines of a constant struggle between two forces, constantly beating at each other.  This is not Harmony. The push-and-pull model is Harmony, where the two forces are not at conflict, but rather they work together to form an endless cycle, where no force overcomes the other. It took me a while to note that distinction, and up until I reached that epiphany, all of my arguments for Balance seemed to fall short. Now I know why.

We believe chaos is good because of our rebellious minds.

The Creator gave us free will so we can reshape our fate whenever we desire. We created chaos in our thought!!

We created chaos in which it had been harming the world for aeons.

There is no such thing is chaotic good! Chaotic good is good when it is against the man-made laws but not natural made-law. Man-made laws are always flawed since our petty rebellious minds aren't omniscient to judge people. But it is never good when you are chaotic good against natural order beside lawful evil is also chaotic because there is no such thing in the universe can make their own laws except the Creator.

 

I am not religious but scientifically saying with full sense of logic.

I am trying very hard to be open-minded here. Now, I am going to try and list your points, to see if I can follow the logic chain. I will then explain where I take issue with your logic, or see holes in it.

1. Humans were given free will to shape their fate.

2. Humans created the notion of chaos. 

3. We created chaos.

4. There is no such thing as Chaotic Good 

Now, to be a little more specific, I will give you somewhere to start with your counterarguments.

On your second point, I see no evidence that Chaos is a strictly human construct. Until you provide your reasoning for this point, your whole argument will not work.

Now, let us assume that you prove that Chaos is a strictly human construct, what then? You still need to explain to me why Chaos is Evil. From what I read, you are defining "evil" as anything that goes against natural law. But natural law is all-encompassing. All man-made laws are derived from it.

Further, natural law applies to the whole of the Universe, including Chaos. I see no evidence whatsoever that Chaos is unnatural. Chaos just happened, because when Order was created, its opposite was created too, since Order and Chaos rely on each other to exist. You can't have one without the other. It's not possible. So in short, I still do not see your reasoning for your statement that Chaos is evil. Arguments of natural law actually support the fact that Chaos is not evil.

WHY YOU DO DIS? Waaaaa. 29 days was long enough... but not this made it worse. Curses... But I am mad excited for this. Is it possible that we'll see the Nightmare Force which supposedly corrupted Luna originally?

Guys, I think we are deviating from the topic here. The discussion of the origins of our Universe is best left to the off-topic forums, and religion should be entirely avoided, as it can lead to flame wars.

The focus of this discussion is simply to meditate on whether the Equestrians are approaching Harmony, Order, and Chaos properly. Discussion of where our Universe came from, and religious notions are moot for our purposes here. Please let's bring this back on topic. I don't want any unwanted mod attention.

While chaos is not bad, discord is. There is a difference between chaos and discord, Discord obviously following discord. 

 

Discord is disagreement between people, i.e. strife, hostility, bad blood, etc.

Chaos is lack of order, i.e. confusion, mayhem, disorder, etc.

 

Discord is quite clearly following discord by creating strife and disagreement. Were he true chaos, he'd have no alliance and would do good as well. Discord also knows he's bad and enjoyed doing evil, another point against him embodying chaos, which is neither good nor bad. 

 

As for the Changelings, they just committed a terrorist attack and their feeding method apparently reduces the victim to a lifeless husk and mind-rapes them in the process. To propose an alliance right after an attack would be foolish, especially since the comics show that the Changelings regret nothing and that Chrysalis is a monster. 

 

Evilness chart: Sombra>Nightmare Moon>Chrysalis>Demon Sunset Shimmer>Discord

But do the Changelings have a will of their own, or are they mindlessly enslaved to Chrysalis? If the latter is the case, I wonder what would happen if Chrysalis were out of the picture.

Discord as a concept is the one thing I think is inherently evil. It is the opposite of Harmony, and results only in widespread misery, as you point out.

I think derpy's original voice didn't sound retarded at all. I worse i'd have called it a speech impediment but that's about it. I also have a some what lazy eye as well.

 

 If Derpy did get an episode, I'd love it to wind up as many soccor-moms as possible. Them wanting her taken out of the show is basically saying we should hide people with disabilities away so they don't 'offend' our sight.

It wasn't soccer moms. It was iTunes. Blame Apple for the loss of Derpy, not Hasbro or any random soccer moms. iTunes was afraid of the somewhat kinda possible possibility that they could get negative feedback.

Trying to make sense out of something that doesn't make sense, or using human philosophy to argue something that is completely and entirely inhuman is just as effective as using a water bottle to make out with God's middle name.

 

After I discovered that Chaos is neither intellectual or stupid, nor did it make any sense to the current state of the human mind, it's really useless to debate it. Philosophy shows nothing but that we're trying to be smart by being stupid, and it's bullshit.

Actually it shows that we accept any bullshit as truth, and we're trying to think about it. The only way to understand chaos is to not understand it and not think about it. 

The more you try to learn, the less you understand. And it truly is a whole lot more fun than debating who's smarter or using "logic".

Again, Chaos, whether it objectively exists or not, or whatever its nature, is undoubtedly a concept which applies to human and/or pony society. As such, it is worth debating. It doesn't matter if something exists outside of our paradigm or not. So long as it exists within our paradigm, it is pertinent. Everything is as it is. All we can do is try to figure out how to work with the cards we've been dealt. Just because a solution seems out of our grasp does not mean we shouldn't stretch for it. For all we know, we could figure it out one day. You don't know, and I don't know. Therefore, neither of us can make an objective statement of whether this is worthwhile or not.

You think this is BS? So, why not leave the discussion if you find it so petty? Stating over and over that truth seems out of reach is not contributing to the discussion at all, and if you think a topic is pointless, just leave. Don't disrupt it. It is of no good to anypony to just butt in and call a whole thread pointless. Obviously we find merit here. If you don't, that's fine. But don't take away from our discussion.

Why nobody mentioned that they KILLED somepony on screen?

They din't even try to reason with him, they killed him without a second thought.

You know FOR KIDS am I right?

I didn't bring up Sombra because he was undoubtedly a tyrant. I could see no justification for the enslavement of the Crystal Ponies. Sombra was a standard unicorn, so he had no special needs. He does not contribute to Harmony in any way. As such, I saw no injustice in the Equestrians' actions. Where one's self-preservation is at risk, and no amount of reasoning will work, the only option is force. Which brings me to the Chrysalis scenario.

With Discord it was made pretty obvious that he was pretty cruel. His "life style" caused the ponies misery and destroyed any semblance of comfort and order. It is also said he was tyrannical "ruling over Equestria in an eternal state of unrest and unhappiness". He clearly enjoyed twisting the ponies' souls into a corrupted mess and forcibly transforming animals into monstrosities. Its clear that discord isn't simply this poor soul that wants to live differently in peace at that point, he wants to rule and has done so before. This seems evident as we see him reveling in his chaos upon a throne.

 

This is also very evident in the case of chrysalis. She has an entire musical number devoted to how she has dreamed of conquering an entire civilization. She revels in her deception and in using Shining armor as a tool. Chrysalis made clear that she went around forcibly conquering civilizations draining their love. She also made clear that this wasn't merely about finding sustenance for her people. To quote her "My fellow changelings will be able to devour so much of it that we will be more powerful than we have ever dreamed of". She wanted power and control and reveled in that power and control. Heck she sang about it twice, in the reprise she says this "Every pony Ill soon control. Every stallion, mare and foal. Who says a girl cant really have it all." Chrysalis wanted it all, not merely sustenance, but control and power. Whilst you claim no attempt was made to accommodate Chrysalis I would claim no attempt could be or should be attempted. Chrysalis is painted as a tyrant as well. Using subterfuge to infiltrate unsuspecting cities, then subjugating them forcibly draining them of their love. Heck the ponies didn't know of Chrysalis's presence until it was announced and she made obvious that she was taking over. At that point the prime concern is defending the safety of Canterlot.

This is something I can't bring myself to agree with. Yes, they have a right to self-preservation, but not at the expense of another species. Instead of asking for any kind of assistance, Chrysalis instead skipped straight to the "conquer and devour" route, trying to take both what her children needed (love) and what she wanted (power) by force. If that doesn't merit banishment, I don't know what does.

 Yeah. Elsewhere somepony else pointed at that Discord represented a Chaos/Evil alignment. As it stands, we don't know if he will be allowed to remain chaotic, so long as he is good. I would need more information before I re-evaluate Discord's treatment.

As for Chrysalis, I will give you that she was a tyrant. She actually was tyrant over the Changelings themselves. But what about the Changelings, without Chrysalis? Equestrians, as the model of good ponies, should have extended the olive branch. After the immediate threat was defeated, some attempt should have been made to reason with them. It is injustice to just leave them to rot without at least trying to find some way to live peacefully with them.

When we understand what chaos isn't, because understanding what it is means you don't understand it at all, we then learn that philosophy is completely useless when trying to decipher it.

 

Chaos is both order and disorder. Ultimately, it's just the stuff that happens around us, what we cannot control. Once we acknowledge this, the need to be "smart" seems a whole lot more silly than it did before we first started.

There is no such thing as "evil", just a misunderstanding of what the hell is going on; and the misunderstanding is the belief that we understand what is going on.

 

So instead of trying to discover the secrets of the universe it is wise to take a step back, and realize they don't even exist in the first place. Go eat a hot dog.

Your point is almost self-defeating. Saying that humans can only misunderstand is claiming that you have an understanding of human nature. If humans misunderstand, then by any probability, you could be just as wrong in your statements as me. It is the same problem as we see in Pyrrhonian Skepticism, which holds that nothing is certain (except for uncertainty), which means in fact that you could be wrong in stating that nothing is certain. Human subjectivity means everypony has equal probabilities of being correct or incorrect. Everypony has equal capacities to understand and misunderstand. As such it is inherently flawed to claim any objective truth, including the truth that there is no truth.

Now, your argument would make a little more sense if you had worded it as such: "Humans, as subjective creatures who could possibly be right or wrong on any given matter, cannot be sure if there is a truth or not through any amount of debate and reasoning. As such, any philosophical debates are worthless, as in the end, they bring us no closer to any objective truth, given human subjectivity."

That being said, I would argue that human uncertainty and misunderstanding, and our inability to know objective truth (if there is one) does not mean we cannot debate on objective truths. It is interesting to share ideas and, whether or not an objective truth exists or not, there are truths which exist regarding human society.

Society, as a strictly human construct, can have truths to the way it functions, as society is contained entirely within the human perspective. All things about it can be determined through careful analysis of the way things are, and pondering of the way things could be. Whether or not truth exists objectively is not pertinent to this discussion, as we can never know. What is pertinent is the question of what truths exist within the context of society, and how they would be applied in said society.

Chaos, whatever its nature or objective existence (or nonexistence), is a concept which exists within the scope of society. As such, for the purpose of societal analysis, we can treat it as an objective truth, because it is a concept which exists, as far as society is concerned. Our purpose here is to debate whether Chaos is evil from the perspective of society, and if so whether it should be considered evil or not.

Since MLP has a defined storyline, I would employ what I like to call the law of continuity.

In shows like Spongebob and the Simpsons, each episode is a self-contained plot capsule. All conflicts are established and resolved in the course of an episode or two, with little to no overall storyline. Shows like this can go on almost indefinitely, so long as the creators keep coming up with good plots and comedy. The lack of of a continuous plot means that you don't have to worry about connecting dots, or resolving any larger issues.

But in shows like MLP, where there is an overall plot arc, it would be infuriating to have long-term storylines and conflicts go on indefinitely. As such, MLP, if I am to be happy with it, should eventually come to an end. I would rather have it end with a bang then to see it die out slowly like other shows *coughfairlyoddparentscoughcough.*

That being said, what is my view on quantity? Basically, as long as the show's progression rate allows. I wouldn't want plot and character development to be slowed down for the sake of making it last longer. As long as the current path takes to reach the resolution of all of the character arcs is the limit of how long the show should be. Since I don't really measure a show's progression rate, I can't give a number. But I feel like I would want at least 5 seasons, if it doesn't affect the progression too much.

But, I will want an end to the show eventually. If executed properly, and end can make a series even better. Shining examples of well-wrapped up stories are Bionicle, and Avatar: The Last Airbender. And these are stories which still resonate with me, and which I always revisit due to their overall execution and well-resolved plots. I want MLP to share that level of resonance, with all of the loose ends tied, as opposed to a case where the writers struggle to find new ideas, or clamour to create new plots to desperately keep the show going.

Hobbes?  Hmm?  elaborate?

 

And tolerance is fine.

But tolerance is a far.. far... farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr cry from love LOL.

tolerance (as seen on south park)

isn't love.

what your talking about is Love and acceptance.

 

Tolerance simply means just that.

"I put up with you."

Acceptance means I embrace you for who you are.

You might tolerate your cat scratching you now and again.

You might tolerate your kid listening to death medal.

 

doesn't mean you accept it ^^.

Hobbes was  a political philosopher who came up with a model of how a nation should govern, based on his view of human nature. To him, humans were naturally conniving, purely interested in themselves, willing to do anything to get a leg up. Your comment that blind faith in tolerance leads to exploitation reminded me of him.

And I agree that there is a difference between tolerance and acceptance. Acceptance is a bit out of reach in large-scale application. The best we can hope for is widespread tolerance.

Idk how a geocentric solar system functions correctly. I'm guessing the whole universe isn't geocentric, though.

"That is another discussion." Yeah, I kinda accidentally an essay on your thread about that.

S'ok. I kinda accidentally a brohoof on your post.

But I don't know? Maybe Equestria has the Tychonian model, where the sun goes around the Earth, and other planets go around the sun?

As for oppressing chaos: Equestria only is against evil chaos. It's like those alignment tables; there's chaotic good, chaotic evil, good harmony, and bad harmony (although I prefer to call it oppression, as harmony is supposed to be intrinsically good by definition.) Discord represented evil chaos, which hurts other people. That's something that Equestria oppresses because it needs to be oppressed: what if we didn't oppress murder? Good chaos, like Pinkie Pie's , is not bad, and I think that we all need a little bit o' chaos in our lives.

 

Furthermore, bad chaos (Discord) consists of crimes and sins and shouldn't be tolerated, while good chaos (P.P) is needed and should be tolerated. Good chaos is doing evil; good chaos is doing unorganized or spontaneous things. They're completely different things, if you look closely.

 

Discord's reign was only bad chaos under the guise of good chaos. The only difference was that he was having fun while making everypony miserable. Discord wasn't actually all that different from all the other villains, unless you're only looking superficially.

 

 

So no, I don't think Equestria has it wrong.

Chaos leads to fear. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.

 

thank you so much if you read this waffle of a post (more like a pancake).

I suppose it was bad chaos. Then my thought is going to be based now on whether Discord will still be allowed to be chaotic, or if he will be forced to conform to Order. I'd like to see whether he is forced to conform, or if he is just forced to be respectful of others.

Since you put at that way, i would conclude that.

Chaos is just the concept of our minds thinking about the universe, we created chaos !

Chaos is a defiance of harmony and order. Everytime, I observe myself and all human beings i can only see the rebellious nature in our blood with high pain tolerance in our mind. We waging war with each other to prove to each other our ideas in which freedom has been given by God. We constantly fearing the good things that we thinking is unknowingly evil, it is fear and ignorance. We are so arrogant to even dare to play God by judging each other, scientific natural-defiant revolution, and call ourselves gods.

Chaos is just merely a fragment of our thought, a justification of our freedom to everything that happens today.

Good vs Evil is just a battle which God placed to toy our minds to remind us that Order is still in power so don't turn to bad side. It has effectively created religions in which serving to suppress our freedom to whirlwind as the consequence of destroying all other organic lives on Earth and the universe.

Back to the topic about Harmony, I have defined correctly as the peaceful stabilization in the fully satisfication of all life forms. Harmony is Order because the only aspect can against Chaos is always be Order. The Mane 6 wields the elements of Harmony because Order allows it to happen as bringing the peaceful stabilization to universe. The balance is the perfect homeostasis where all parts of the universe perfectly bonded to each other with no scissor cutting them ( chaos)

 

In conclusive, chaos and the eternal battle of good vs evil existing in our mind as the greatest inventions of all times rather than fire. Order continues to balance the world as it growing concern of our freedom going out of control to spread chaos in the universe for our minds are't perfect as God to create the worlds, Randomness is just still but the one piece of the law, freedom we strongly protecting today is chaos itself.

Everything you say just about lines up logically. The one issue I have remaining is your continued stance that chaos is purely evil... or perhaps you don't think Chaos is pure evil, and there is simply a miscommunication here? Because you equate Chaos to Freedom, which is good, if checked by Order. Order is good, because Chaos cannot rule. But at the same time, Chaos should not be eliminated, because chaos is growth, freedom, and fun, among other things. So what I'm really saying, Chaos is not just evil. There is good in it too.

It was all a part of the plan, DUH!. Clearly Celestia was also the one who set the timber wolves on Spike. Don't forget who we're dealing with here...

PInkie pies randomness is chaos LOL.

 

I don't feel chaos is evil.  It's chaos.  Because chaos can bring good thing.

chaos can inspire.  Chaos can create.

 

Now if you tell me chaos with out regret is evil?

just rampaging out all willy nilly with out regard for what could happen?

 

Why yes ^^, yes it is.

And pinkie does that that from time to time.

bet you thought i was gonna say discord.

Precisely. Chaos can be good, but it needs to be kept in check, because too much chaos is bad.

But Pinkie Pie doesn't count. Gods do what they want, regardless of moral consequence. Best to leave her alone.

Here's a video that explains the situation quite good:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lh6UOPH6_i8

I think this guy pretty much says what I think, you should give this a watch. Talks about some good stuff.

While tolerance is a message continually banged into us, I still think it is a good one. Even people like Trixie and Diamond Tiara, while thoroughly irritating, should be treated with no less than an indifference. Most ponies, if taught through careful logic why tolerance is good, would take up the mantle of tolerance themselves. Obviously existence isn't perfect. There will be people who just refuse to see the logic of tolerance and harmony. Does that mean we shouldn't teach it all the same? We can't reach world peace. Should we stop trying? And that's my thought. People should be taught tolerance, but also given the tools to deal with people who will simply not embrace the notion. But as I said, most people will tend towards tolerance, as it is more efficient than conflict.

well again I'm not about love and tolerance.

 

but i wear the black hat.

good people should be about love and tolerance.

 

So i can take advantage of them

(heh).

and that's just it.

 

when i hear the term love and tolerance i hear " sucker is born every minute."

Love (as wonderful as it is) causes you to do dumb things.

 

Love causes you to abandon common sense.

forsake values.

 

I would be reluctant to teach my children if i ever had them to "love everyone."

in fact........

i wouldn't. 

Tolerance and love are no more Best friends for ever than hate and ignorance are BFFs.

The Hobbes is strong in this one.

But as for your point. People should be taught love and tolerance, but also taught how to deal with those who would take advantage of them. But I would argue that people, being logical creatures, in interest of self-preservation, would avoid conflict as much as they can, which in the end is all that tolerance really stands for. It is most efficient and reasonable to try and work with others where one can, and tolerate them where one can't

I love Derpy, but I am not sure I would want her to be a focus. I'm already iffy about the potential Vinyl Scratch song in Season 4. It's really a matter of whether you want the fans in charge of her or Hasbro. I'm not sure.

I read a theory that that's why Discord tried to create chaos in Equestria: to stop universal order. Also, I think the whole purpose of threads like these is to make Equestria "realistic." I don't think they strive for universal order; I just think that they found out they could manipulate the weather, and said, "why the heck not?"

 

Not saying it has to be; though it would make sense, the way Celestia and Luna are depicted raising the sun and the moon, respectively. Also, a solar system based around the sun would make Luna pale in comparison to Celestia. I mean, some other planets have 10+ moons.

Well, I have many thoughts on the subject of Chaos and Order in Equestria. I think the Equestrian moves to control almost everything are against the virtue of Harmony, but that is another discussion. As for my comment, it was more of a side observation, not really related to the thread.

Yeah, that makes it seem even more likely. A geocentric Universe... hmmm

I respected your perspective! But when talking about God, he don't randomly make universes.

As a famous quote of Einstein saying : "God don't roll dices when creating the universe."

God created everything with full of purposes and righteous ordered. When everything is created with purposes, there is no chaos.

Chaos is simply the disorganization and randomness of things without consciously creating. Chaos goes without direction, it disrupts anything Order keeps together in the beginning. Our minds times by times adapted to it as our bodies become pain tolerance as living through the chaotic painful world as the constant war between good vs evil.

Our minds adapted to make us think that Chaos is good as our minds had been given too much power of free thinking by God. When we can able to freely think and design our fate, the concept of freedom was born. We become more rebellious toward order as hating chaos. We have the power to reshape our fate in which making to become more rebellious toward the natural order, we constantly having wars to defy the balance and always desired to play God (clone, human engineering and powerful machines).

You, my friend is also was created by Order and born in chaos like me. We embraced the concept of chaos for too long as our minds becoming rebellious toward order as our bodies disgusted toward chaos. God testing us to see if our minds will truly in the end choosing to defy chaos or order; we have been given the ability to reshape our fate and the day we choose to believe in order it would be the day the world in peace. When all minds connected to order and harmony, chaos shall perish.

 

All minds are what really matter for outcome of the war between good and evil. I am not being religious here!

I am a very open-minded person, and I respect others views. But I also need arguments grounded on reasoning other than religious beliefs. While I fully believe in God, I gave Him much thought before I secured Him in my beliefs. As such, I need to hear your precise reasoning as to why Order is inherently good and Chaos is inherently evil. I see good and bad things in both.

Further, I would want to know your definition of what "good" and "evil" are. Because these concepts are strictly subjective. There is no inherent definition of Good and Evil. You could say good consists of all things which come from God, but then Chaos would be Good, as well as everything else in existence, which is a valid view. But then it undermines the argument that Chaos is Evil, as that was created by God too.

I do not see how Harmony and pure Order are associated, nor how Chaos cannot exist with Harmony. In fact, as argued above, the notion of eliminating anything is inherently contradictory to what Harmony is. Harmony, by definition, means the peaceful coexistance of everything, including Chaos and Order.

The war between Good and Evil... I still do not understand what these concepts are, or if they even exist objectively.

I know. I am sure you gave careful thought to all of this. I am just asking for your reasoning, so I can better understand, and respond appropriately to your points.

It would probably just move normally, like in the real world. After all, there is weather in te Everfree Forest which naturally changes. It is only pony-controlled in places where there are ponies. As for the sun and moon... Well, if they didn't move on their own before hand, it would have resulted in the death of everypony, as one side of the world would bake and the other would freeze.

It seems that all weather in Equestria is controlled by ponies (save the Everfree Forest.) If they made no attempt to  control the weather, what would happen? Would clouds move on their own, like normal, or would there be a huge drought? Not to mention the sun; what would happen if the unicorns didn't raise the sun and the moon?

 

Personally, I think that the ponies only help the weather move along. I bet if they stopped controlling it, weather there would be much like on earth.

 

If that's true, what about the sun and the moon? Well, I think that the sisters only serve to stabilize the heavenly bodies, rather than completely control them. If they solely guided them, how would the sun or the moon ever be there before ponies could move them? However, I believe Luna and Celestia still could move their heavenly bodies at will if they wanted to. If the royal sisters died or something, seasons/weather patterns would be like on earth: unpredictable.

 

Even though this headcanon gives a slight nerf to the sisters' powers, it does explain why the unicorns weren't "the master race": they weren't the sun/moon's only driving force.

 

Also, if the heavenly bodies in Equestria "raise" as if they were discs in the sky, does the Equus' (or whatever) solar system look like this:

http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect/retrograde/aristotle.gif

 

Let me hear what you think about the weather in Equestria.

Interesting observation, cewell. I never thought of that. So Equestria's Universe is geocentric? Odd.

But anyways, I am noticing more and more of a trend that the Equestrians are trying to impose universal Order. I bet it would be a dystopia if it were a realistic world.

I'm not a huge fan of the phrase to be honest. I am all for love, don't get me wrong, but there exist things that simply can not be tolerated. And the evil things that the villains in the show do is an example of that. The Mane Six can't just sit back and "love and tolerate" them while they spread vile across the land or try to take over Equestria and expect them to go away. Not to mention that if that was how they dealt with them...that would suck.

 

Also, for the record, I never remember that being the set-in-stone message of the show. I thought that the term came from the 4chan boards.

Harmony, which is undoubtedly a concept within the show's themes, involves tolerance. Harmony is the state of peacefully coexisting with all aspects of existence, and tolerating things, no matter what your own paradigm is. Opression is contradictory to tolerance, and therefore the idea of Harmony by extension. I would also argue that no true attempt at compromise was made. It was "I don't care about your nature, it is against our Order, change, or begone." Discord can't help that he was spirit of Chaos and the Changelings needed love to survive. No attempt was made to try to accommodate their nature, which they couldn't help. It was conform, or be punished. Opressing them for who they were is an act of intolerance and injustice, and contradictory to Harmony. The Equestrians should've at least tried to give some leash to these "villains" who were born the way they were.

I would argue that at the beginning, God set off the Big Bang, and opposites just happened. The argument that only good things come from God is one that I don't find valid because I don't believe in an objective Good and Evil. Existence can only be seen in absences and presences. Dark is the absence of light, sadness is the absence of joy, fear is the absence  of courage, and so on. There are no inherently negative things, and if any aspect of a duality were nonexistent, the whole duality would vanish. You can't have good without evil, nor cruelty without kindness. You can't understand a thing unless you have its opposite to compare it to. At least, this is what the philosophy of Harmony and Balance holds to. Would you understand how wondrous peace is if you had not war to avoid? Would you know the beauty of love if you never saw hatred? All things must exist for things to be as beautiful as they are.

But even if Chaos were evil, which I don't believe it is, a realistic perspective would hold that, if there is to be peace and Harmony, Order and Chaos must reconcile with each other, as neither can be fully eliminated. To prevent an endless cycle of conflict, Balance must be maintained, and all things must coexist peacefully.

And again, Chaos is not inherently evil. It just exists, as everything else. And since it exists, we must learn to reconcile with it. Going about trying to eliminate things will not work, and as argued above, Chaos is beneficial at times, and Order detrimental. The only way is too carefully apply Order or Chaos, depending on which is needed more at a given time.

I feel the same way. Equestria is actually kind of being jerks just banishing the Changelings and Discord without an attempt at peace. Kind of seams disharmonious if you ask me.

 

Completely of topic, but this is a random tid bit of information. The universe our universe is actually getting more chaotic as time goes on. You see energy in every chemical reaction is lost due to the form of heat, and this is a gross simplification of it, but when a chemical reaction occurs you build up entropy. Entropy is like the unit of measurement for chaos of the universe.

 

So basically the more chemical reactions occur the more chaos is in our universe. This means that there will never be a true balance, but chaos would eventually completely overtake harmony in the universe. In a way its a good thing ponies banish chaos and things like that. 

 

The are helping keep some balance to the universe. Even though them using energy at all brings more chaos. Hmm I think Discord got Celestia beat. 

 

Woah this was like rambling 10.0

Yes, but no matter how chaotic things get, the laws of physics still apply, maintaining order of a sort.

In my opinion, their disregard for kindness in these instances is perfectly okay. The villains in the episode do some pretty extreme things, so it is understandable that they are dealt with accordingly. But when you look at characters such as Discord, it was told that he was treated well before he became evil, but he wanted to rule. Then after he was dealt with Celestia gave him his chance, which is why instead of being frozen, he is being watched after by Fluttershy. They keep their kindness and openness in the back, dealing with the problem before taking their standard approach with them. 

But had he not conformed, he would've been forced to anyways. Very tyrannical if you ask me. And tyranny is not love and tolerance.

There is a concept that created all the concepts in both reality and fictionalism.

The concept of REASON AND ORDER!

Everything in this universe is ordered and there is no such thing called chaos exsist (It runs by the law of nature).

 

In contrast with fictional concept about love and tolerance, the concept is created by a human who was created by the law of nature. If you think deeper, the concept of love and tolerance which had converted many villains in MLP is merely based on the concept of reason and order.

 

Reason = Love

Twillight Sparkle is always revealing the lessons she learned today to "love" the villains. 

The love of reasoning the villains to convert him into harmony which representing order.

 

Order = Tolerance

The final state of defeating the villains. Simply based on a cliche of order restored!

That is when you can tolerate the villains wherever he or she banished or died.

 

In all universes, there is always ruling by one concept!

The concept of Reason and Order.

Interesting thoughts, but I do have some disagreements. I do not see the line between reason and love. I would appreciate a little more explanation.

Regarding order, I do not see how order follows the Natural Law. Natural law states many different things, depending on who you're reading. But the common holding is that natural law states that everypony has their natural right to self-preservation, and are acting rightly so long as they are preserving themselves. Further, I would argue that existence, being Balanced in its natural state, is an Ordered Chaos. Their are laws which govern it, but at the same time things can happen quite randomly.

As for Order being equated to Tolerance... I would disagree most strongly on this point. Order, if it is pure, as in the show, will result in oppression, which is the opposite of tolerance. We see the oppression of the various villains and, in the case of the Changelings, we see Order conflicting natural law and being used to take away the Changeling's natural right to self-preservation. It is not only intolerant with the Changelings, but outright Unjust.

*HEAVY PHILOSOPHY DISCLAIMER, IF UNINTERESTED IN PHILOSOPHY, DON'T WASTE TIME READING*

~Introduction~

So, I would like to bring up a discussion which always interests me. I first had this talk on the RuneScape forums, in philosophical debates about the gods. But it is one that very much applies to Equestria. Is Chaos actually inherently evil? The common argument brought up is that well, in the Equestrian paradigm, yes, Chaos is evil. But I would say that such a view actually is a direct contradiction to the other Equestrian paradigm that Harmony is the thing which society should strive for.

Harmony is a subject which is very dear to me, and one that I have spent several years mulling over. I have had countless debates, read numerous books, and written several papers on the subject, not to mention a book which I am working on. As such, I have had much evolution in my ideas. I have made plenty of progress in my thoughts since I first started pondering Balance (a subject related to Harmony) back in the 9th grade, 5 years ago, on the RuneScape forums. And one thing which I have established many times over is the importance of opposites coexisting for Balance to occur, and for Harmony to exist.

Existence has many parts. There are Yin, Yang, and Neutral aspects which make up everything. The Universe is a web of these various aspects, and their interactions. There are also different types of interactions which occur. The most notable interactions are called dualities, which are interactions between a Yin aspect, and its complementary Yang aspect. Their are other kinds, but interactions involving neutral forces are not an issue, as they do not threaten Harmony, or Balance.

For our discussion here, we are focusing on the two dualities which are most prominent in the Equestrian paradigm. These dualities are Order/Chaos and Harmony/Discord. The Good/Evil duality in Equestria is equivalent to those two relationships, but we are going to examine if that should be the case.

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~Order/Chaos~

Now, if we examine the Order/Chaos relationship, Order is Good and Chaos is Bad in Equestria. However, I would posit this: exactly why is Chaos a Bad? Chaos, while it does create some level of misery, is still a necessary part of life. If there was only pure Order, society would have to oppress anypony who deviates, as in the case of Discord (the entity), the Changelings, and Nightmare Moon. Oppression can lead to civil unrest, and leads to injustice.

Mind, in Equestria deviants aren't common, so unrest isn't a big problem. But Injustice does occur. Was it right to banish the Changelings for their nature? Why was no attempt made to serve both ponies and Changelings? Was it Just to force Discord to reform? Couldn't he just be given another outlet for his Chaos?

Attempts could have been made to be Just, but the pure Order which Equestria supports resulted in tyrant-like actions on the part of the Equestrians. Then the other factor of Order which is negative is that pure rigidity of society makes it fragile, and less capable of handling conflict. Your society might not change, and internally that could work fine. But if an external force works against your society, the lack of variety and innovation could backfire.

If we examine history, we know that the greatest advances all came from times of conflict, or a problem which needed solving. A society lacking conflict internally will become complacent. "Why should we advance when things are working fine?" is a thought commonly held by an overly ordered and stable society, Then something new comes along and exceeds its level of innovation, and overtakes it. So Chaos is not only not Evil, but it can be Good at times too.

~No Chaos? An Affront to Harmony~

In the Introduction, I mentioned that the Equestrian anti-Chaos sentiment was actually contradictory to its paradigm of Harmony. How is this so? Well, simply put, Harmony is the state of existence in which all things love together in multiplicity, tolerating and respecting all different paradigms without qualms. As soon as the Equestrians decided that Chaos should be oppressed, they contradicted Harmony. Simply having the attitude that an aspect of existence should be tossed out the door means that Harmony is not the end goal, as Harmony involves tolerating views, not eliminating them. Attempts should have been made at reason and compromise. Oppression is inherently an unbalanced action, and Harmony cannot be achieved be acting against Harmony.

Then there is also Balance to be considered as well. Balance is a notion which is related to Harmony. Balance is an overall equillibrium between opposite forces. Existence changes, so opposite forces won't stay equal forever. But in order for Harmony to exist, Balance must be strived for. Opposite forces cannot be allowed to grow to strong or too weak.

If we are to take this Order/Chaos duality as an example, we know that too much Order and too little Chaos are both bad things. The inverse is also true, as seen if we examine Discord's reign.Balance means that we should weaken the strong or strengthen the weak forces in a duality, to prevent the scales from going too much in either direction. These Imbalances would help create Discord- a state of existence which has excessive suffering for one or more parties, where somepony or another is not happy.

So, in conclusion, I would argue that Equestria has it all wrong. In oppressing Chaos, the Equestrians are causing Imbalance. On top of that, the blind intolerance of anypony who seems to threaten the status quo means that the Equestrians are acting in an inherently Discordant and unharmonious way.

I know this was quite a waffle, and I appreciate anypony who took the time to read. But I really wanted to share my ideas, and I would love to hear your own. What do you think everypony? I look forward to reading your responses!

Love and tolerance! The battlecry of Bronies everywhere, and the moral high ground which we argue is but one reason why the show is great. It's covered numerous different times in the various episodes. But there is one place where this message seems to fall short: Villain episodes. Any episode where a villain comes into play, we see the show's so-called message completely shot down.

In the Nightmare Moon arc, Nightmare Moon had to be cleansed of the force which corrupted her. But in this case, I will say that this was acceptable. Whatever was influencing her turned her into a tyrant, and with tyrants you need to be forceful. No problem here. I just didn't want anypony saying "What about Nightmare Moon... Derrr."

Discord... I have loads to say about him. He is actually going to be granted a thread of his own. But for our purposes here, I only need to point out the what here. The how, why, and should will be elsewhere. But the what is this. For having a different lifestyle and paradigm, he had only two possible paths. He could stay true to himself, and be imprisoned for ever and/or forced to reform, or he could change his own nature. It sure is tolerance to hate somepony for their lifestyle and sense of humour.

The Changelings and Chrysalis... These guys are forced by their nature to feed on love. It is injustice to take away their natural right to self-preservation. No attempt was made to try and reach a compromise. They were simply banished for something they couldn't help. This is on par with various civil rights and social issues which I won't detail, but we all know how this kind of thing would be considered wrong in today's society, without at least trying to find a middle ground.

So, given these notable examples, what do you guys think? Do you think these episodes have kind of undermined the show's message a bit? Do you agree that injustice is really this prominent in an otherwise great society?

Now, let's have discussion!