An appeals section/downtone of permabans?

[Mand'alor Dash 2,224]

There have been a lot of people getting permabanned from these forums, and more than a couple have been regulars who maybe got it a bit worse than they deserved.

 

Personally, I don't think the permaban should be something handed out to just anybody. Maybe change it so that it's reserved for the serious troublemakers and that the current 1000-point punishment is a 1-month ban instead?

 

And more importantly, there should be a section of the forums wherein banned members can appeal for a second chance.

 

Personally, I've had only a positive experience with this site's moderation, but that hasn't been the case for everyone.

 

Moderation can be a stressful job, and it's only human to make mistakes every once in a while. While it's true that a feature like this could be abused by trolls or douchebags just looking to take parting shots, it could also help more than a few members who are victims of miscommunication or other errors.

 

[King 5,625]

there should be a section of the forums wherein banned members can appeal for a second chance

Banned members can already appeal through the mod dispute system, so a forum section isn't needed for this.

 

As for a downtone of permabans, I would have to disagree. Permabans are given out mainly for two reasons. Either someone has done something that warrants an immediate ban, or they are have broken rules on more then a few occasions and haven't shown an ability to shape up. We need to be firm in these cases.

 

The rules are set out clearly enough for people to understand what is and isn't allowed. There's no excuse for ignorance of the rules or policies and If you continue to break these rules, then you wont be shown leniency. There's no excuse to repeat behaviour you've been warned about.

 

This may appear harsh, but its done with the best interests of this site and its members in mind.

[Jeric 46,854]

And more importantly, there should be a section of the forums wherein banned members can appeal for a second chance.

 

 

I want to address this point you mentioned. There is a function in our system that allows for Moderation disputes found in the Resource Map

 

> The Support Ticket System --> Click here!

Unlike many forums which utilize staff-to-member communication through the common PM system exclusively, the MLPF staff team prefers to lend its higher-level support to members through support tickets, moderated in a private area. Support tickets are accessible by going to the 'Client Area--> Support' section of your settings, after clicking your name at the top right of the site.

 

*Support Tickets should include queries such as:

• Moderation
• Moderation disputes
• Questions regarding what may or may not be appropriate for the site
• Advertising queries
• Complex technical issues that only a Tech Admin can deal with

*If your ticket hasn't been getting a response, don't take it personally; the staff have a lot on their plate on a daily basis. Just PM a particular staff member with your issue, and they'll be sure to see that it gets immediate attention and that a resolution is reached

 

 

I think that the Support Ticket - Moderation Dispute process functions as a better solution that a separate section to the forum. It is more private and confidential as it should be.

 

As far as ban decisions and the process that goes on, I'll let the Moderation and Admin Team handle that, but let me tell you that in general I have found that no decision on this board that effects it's members is made in haste without reasonable discussion or cause. The team honestly cares about the user base here.

[Mand'alor Dash 2,224]

Banned members can already appeal through the mod dispute system, so a forum section isn't needed for this.

 

As for a downtone of permabans, I would have to disagree. Permabans are given out mainly for two reasons. Either someone has done something that warrants an immediate ban, or they are have broken rules on more then a few occasions and havent shown an ability to shape up. We need to be firm in these cases.

 

In most cases, I just see banned members give up after receiving their permabans. How's the dispute system work? I know people who might need to know about it.

 

EDIT: NVM; answered. xD

Edited September 16, 2014 by Mand'alor Dash

[Ziggy + Angel + Rain 11,302]

Banned members can already appeal through the mod dispute system, so a forum section isn't needed for this.

As for a downtone of permabans, I would have to disagree. Permabans are given out mainly for two reasons. Either someone has done something that warrants an immediate ban, or they are have broken rules on more then a few occasions and haven't shown an ability to shape up. We need to be firm in these cases.

 

The rules are set out clearly enough for people to understand what is and isn't allowed. There's no excuse for ignorance of the rules or policies and If you continue to break these rules, then you wont be shown leniency. There's no excuse to repeat behaviour you've been warned about.

 

This may appear harsh, but its done with the best interests of this site and its members in mind.

Let's say that, theoretically, a member with preexisting points is banned because their obviously sarcastic / ironic post was mistakenly taken literally.  It may even be that the post was misinterpreted because the gender of said member was presumed to be the opposite.  Surely this is a wrong that has been committed, and surely the staff would be more than eager to right that wrong.  Correct?  Theoretically, of course.

[duidamasterXD 9,627]

Let's say that, theoretically, a member with preexisting points is banned because their obviously sarcastic / ironic post was mistakenly taken literally.  It may even be that the post was misinterpreted because the gender of said member was presumed to be the opposite.  Surely this is a wrong that has been committed, and surely the staff would be more than eager to right that wrong.  Correct?  Theoretically, of course.

 

This thread isn't the place to hash out any specific cases or warnings, but if a mistake has been made then I'd be very interested in seeing it put right. This member (and anyone else who feels they have received an unfair warning) should follow the directions in Jeric's post and submit a dispute.

[mars 4,862]

 

 

And more importantly, there should be a section of the forums wherein banned members can appeal for a second chance.

...Then it'd be public? Everyone would be able to see it. I'm sure that's something that Admins/Mods + the banned users would like to discuss privately. I don't think this is a good idea at all. 

[Ziggy + Angel + Rain 11,302]

This thread isn't the place to hash out any specific cases or warnings, but if a mistake has been made then I'd be very interested in seeing it put right. This member (and anyone else who feels they have received an unfair warning) should follow the directions in Jeric's post and submit a dispute.

I felt as though D. Rider opened the door by naming two circumstances during which permabans were ordinarily dispensed.  I simply posited a third scenario where a mistake was clearly made that resulted in the wrongful banning of a particular member.

...Then it'd be public? Everyone would be able to see it. I'm sure that's something that Admins/Mods + the banned users would like to discuss privately. I don't think this is a good idea at all. 

Were I mistakenly or wrongfully pointed or banned I'd quite like it were it made public.  I wouldn't be the slighest bit embarrassed or hesitant to share such an occurrence with the community.

[Guest90210 3,568]

Were I mistakenly or wrongfully pointed or banned I'd quite like it were it made public.  I wouldn't be the slighest bit embarrassed or hesitant to share such an occurrence with the community.

 

Some people would rather it be made private.

 

A section for banned members to try and argue their case to get unbanned would just cause a whirlwind of debate and drama. Best to keep it private to avoid the unneeded hassle. I mean, I enjoy watching a good internet scuffle throw down as much as the next guy, but I don't think that would be healthy for the community to have to deal with. Mods are swamped with stuff to do as is.

Edited September 17, 2014 by Rivendare

[Ziggy + Angel + Rain 11,302]

Some people would rather it be made private.

 

A section for banned members to try and argue their case to get unbanned would just cause a whirlwind of debate and drama. Best to keep it private to avoid the unneeded hassle.

What if a banned member is unable to access the client area at all?  What options do they have to appeal, then?

[Clarity 3,094]

 

 

Were I mistakenly or wrongfully pointed or banned I'd quite like it were it made public.  I wouldn't be the slighest bit embarrassed or hesitant to share such an occurrence with the community.

You'd like it to be private. But not everyone else would.

 

If a post that was meant to be sarcastic was taken literally, or the context of the post would have been interpreted differently if the gender of a member is actually the opposite, then yeah, that would be a mistake. But why should it be made public? You can perfectly well discuss this privately in a mod dispute without having to openly embarrass the staff, whether on purpose or elsewise.

[Ziggy + Angel + Rain 11,302]

You'd like it to be private. But not everyone else would.

 

If a post that was meant to be sarcastic was taken literally, or the context of the post would have been interpreted differently if the gender of a member is actually the opposite, then yeah, that would be a mistake. But why should it be made public? You can perfectly well discuss this privately in a mod dispute without having to openly embarrass the staff, whether on purpose or elsewise.

Personally, I don't shy away from my mistakes.  Knowing that I've made one gives me an opportunity to avoid making the same mistake in the future, and that gives me an opportunity to improve as an individual.

 

I also don't understand what's so very scary about an open venue.  It invites freedom of speech and yes, potentially, even criticism (which is oftentimes a key component to self-improvement), and it seems more likely that multiple people would speak up concerning a matter such as the one I described.  Otherwise, the tools at one's disposal are relatively few and feeble, and are open to the same precise conditions that might have resulted in the ban in the first place.

[CheeryFox 23,821]

Decisions aren't always black and white. The administration really doesn't want to ban people but sometimes the hammer has to come down. You are given a few chances - should you throw them all away, it's your own fault.

 

I'd trust their decision-making procedures, at least try to understand why these are put into effect...

[Clarity 3,094]

Personally, I don't shy away from my mistakes.  Knowing that I've made one gives me an opportunity to avoid making the same mistake in the future, and that gives me an opportunity to improve as an individual.

Yeah, that's a good moral to follow. Except that we can still do it in private. A mod can still admit their mistakes to the wrongly accused victim in a 1 on 1 dispute.

 

 

I also don't understand what's so very scary about an open venue.  It invites freedom of speech and yes, potentially, even criticism (which is oftentimes a key component to self-improvement), and it seems more likely that multiple people would speak up concerning a matter such as the one I described.  Otherwise, the tools at one's disposal are relatively few and feeble, and are open to the same precise conditions that might haveresulted in the ban in the first place.

 

 

Like Rivendare said, it causes far too much drama and hassle for the dispute to be resolved successfully. I've seen people curse mods, send death threats to mods, bad-talk mods, because their friend got "banned unfairly" even when they completely deserved it. Those people? They're far from debating respectfully and willing to work out some sort of compromise. Such a forum for appealed ban members would be essentially a free gateway ticket to Bash the Mods and Say That They're Wrong Despite Having Less Than Half of the Story.

 

Criticism is nice. Debating is also nice. But such a matter that you described seems to be incredibly broad and general, which can and should be freely discussed in the Feedback section. A specific case? Keep it between the mod and the banned member. Why should we invite people who have absolutely no business butting in into what should be a private dispute? The only way others should be involved is if... well, they were involved, like an exchange between two members that got them both banned. Even if you're friends with a banned member, that doesn't give free reign to a private matter.

Edited September 17, 2014 by Clarity

[Ziggy + Angel + Rain 11,302]

Yeah, that's a good moral to follow. Except that we can still do it in private. A mod can still admit their mistakes to the wrongly accused victim in a 1 on 1 dispute.

 

 

 

 

 

Like Rivendare said, it causes far too much drama and hassle for the dispute to be resolved successfully. I've seen people curse mods, send death threats to mods, bad-talk mods, because their friend got "banned unfairly" even when they completely deserved it. Those people? They're far from debating respectfully and willing to work out some sort of compromise. Such a forum for appealed ban members would be essentially a free gateway ticket to Bash the Mods and Say That They're Wrong Despite Having Less Than Half of The Story.

 

Criticism is nice. Debating is also nice. But such a matter that you described seems to be incredibly broad and general, which can and should be freely discussed in the Feedback section. A specific case? Keep it between the mod and the banned member. Why should we invite people who have absolutely no business butting in into what should be a private dispute? The only way others should be involved is if... well, they were involved, like an exchange between two members that got them both banned. Even if you're friends with a banned member, that doesn't give free reign to a private matter.

Perhaps I'm an oddball (and I suppose I am, so far as the majority of society is concerned), but I think that wrongdoing / injustice on the part of those in a position of authority ought to be made public.  And, surprise, my "theoretical" scenario was actually directly based on a real occurence.  I've sent a support ticket in the place of the banned member, as they were not able to so much as access the client area on their own.  They were mistakenly banned due to a misinterpreted (and I thought obviously sarcastic / ironic) post and afforded neither opportunity to explain themselves nor recourse to appeal their ban.

 

And I do believe that things such as mishandling of a situation or undue censure are just as capable of stirring up drama.

[CheeryFox 23,821]

@PegaMister: It's in the realm of possibility that there is biasness in one's decision-making process. However it would seem that not all decisions are made independently. I cannot see any mods/admins making a misinterpretation like that mainly because something like this is thought over carefully with everyone in mind.

[King 5,625]

You'd like it to be private. But not everyone else would.

 

Bans and warnings are between staff and the member involved. By default we afford these people privacy, if they choose to tell others then we can't really stop them. When they decide to do this however,  we no longer need to afford them privacy. If someone tries to start a public shitstorm simply because they disagreed with their warning rather then going through proper channels, we'd be happy to share the details of the warning/ban so as to reinforce why they were punished.

 

However, as I said, privacy is given by default and is preferable to it being shouted from the roof tops. Nobody likes to have their dirty laundry aired in public.

[mars 4,862]

Perhaps I'm an oddball (and I suppose I am, so far as the majority of society is concerned), but I think that wrongdoing / injustice on the part of those in a position of authority ought to be made public. And, surprise, my "theoretical" scenario was actually directly based on a real occurence. I've sent a support ticket in the place of the banned member, as they were not able to so much as access the client area on their own. They were mistakenly banned due to a misinterpreted (and I thought obviously sarcastic / ironic) post and afforded neither opportunity to explain themselves nor recourse to appeal their ban.

 

And I do believe that things such as mishandling of a situation or undue censure are just as capable of stirring up drama.

May I just emphasize something? It would be public.

Here's what would happen:

The section is opened, and the first dispute comes in. The mods and the banned user begin discussing the situation. Other people begin commenting: "WHAT? THAT ISN'T FAIR" or "OH COME ON HE DESERVED TO BE BANNED". Other people are watching the situation. If not posting than definitely reading. Judging the conversation and the users involved. Imagine how angry that forum would get. New members coming in see that anger all over the forum. Would that make it a fun and peaceful environment like the forums are currently? Imagine how much hate both parties would recieve. And that could all be avoided if the disputes remained private and between the mod and user. Yes, I can understand that perhaps you would prefer them to be public, but have you really thought out the repercussions of that?

[Ziggy + Angel + Rain 11,302]

May I just emphasize something? It would be public.

Here's what would happen:

The section is opened, and the first dispute comes in. The mods and the banned user begin discussing the situation. Other people begin commenting: "WHAT? THAT ISN'T FAIR" or "OH COME ON HE DESERVED TO BE BANNED". Other people are watching the situation. If not posting than definitely reading. Judging the conversation and the users involved. Imagine how angry that forum would get. New members coming in see that anger all over the forum. Would that make it a fun and peaceful environment like the forums are currently? Imagine how much hate both parties would recieve. And that could all be avoided if the disputes remained private and between the mod and user. Yes, I can understand that perhaps you would prefer them to be public, but have you really thought out the repercussions of that?

If forum members are generally capable of maintaining at least the illusion of civility in other parts of the site (I do as much), why do you automatically deem them incapable of doing so within the context of this hypothetical venue?  And I could argue that not everyone perceives the current state of the site as either "fun" or "peaceful."  But, on that point, I digress.

 

I've submitted a ticket in place of the banned user.  Because he can not speak for himself.  Though I am still but a single voice, and if bias does truly play a role...  Is my voice enough?  A chorus would be preferable.

Edited September 17, 2014 by PegaMister

[Clarity 3,094]

 

 

I think that wrongdoing / injustice on the part of those in a position of authority ought to be made public.

I'd like that to happen, too, if President Obama was caught selling drugs and smoking illegally, but a simple mistake like misinterpretation... like, why should that be made public? It could be easily corrected through a dispute, and everyone would forget about it forevermore. The only reason someone'd want a wrongdoing done by authorities to be made public is to embarrass them and show just how inept they are for the mistakes they've committed. Staff have not done anything majorly wrong, as far as I know, that has affected the forums negatively in some way. As such... the issues a single individual with a single ban ought to remain solely between those two. Because the rest of the forums? It does not concern them at all. Unless it's a recurring issue that everyone is complaining about, then things ought to be brought into the open so that they could be resolved.

 

 

 

And, surprise, my "theoretical" scenario was actually directly based on a real occurence.  I've sent a support ticket in the place of the banned member, as they were not able to so much as access the client area on their own. 

You've mentioned that many times. They already can contact MLPforums through email if they cannot access the forums. There's no need to make an entirely new subforum that will inevitably cause drama and negativity throughout the site.

 

 

 

They were mistakenly banned due to a misinterpreted (and I thought obviously sarcastic / ironic) post and afforded neither opportunity to explain themselves nor recourse to appeal their ban.

Anybody could say that they said something horrible, or offensive, and say, "it was just a joke, you're overreacting," right? Jokes can be jokes, but some of them warrant just as much of a penalty as a seriously offensive comment. It really depends on the joke in question, and since I don't know what it is, I can't make judgement. But I think that, if the staff as a whole misinterpreted what you said was an evident, non-serious and light-hearted jab, then it might not be they who misinterpreted, but you. Remember, the entire staff holds a discussion before they ban anybody. I recall some staff member saying that. 

 

As already mentioned above, they have a viable way of contacting MLPforums. support@mlpforums.com for future reference.

 

 

 

And I do believe that things such as mishandling of a situation or undue censure are just as capable of stirring up drama.

They could be, but why does that mean we should add more drama to the already vast amounts of it? I don't quite understand your argument here.

 

 

 

If forum members are generally capable of maintaining at least the illusion of civility in other parts of the site (I do as much), why do you automatically deem them incapable of doing so within the context of this hypothetical venue?

Hmm. I don't get it. Yes, there is civility and peace, but I think you might have missed some of the nastier aspects... though they're usually quickly removed from the site. However, the bouts of drama that occur whenever a popular member, such as Rockymoo and Scootalove, was banned... you sure you haven't noticed them? It got really bad. Some people sunk to depths so low that I'm surprised they remained on the site. During Rockymoo's first ban, an admin was constantly harassed—in public—and I think there was about as much civility as a typical 4chan thread. 

 

 

 

I've submitted a ticket in place of the banned user.  Because he can not speak for himself.  Though I am still but a single voice, and if bias does truly play a role...  Is my voice enough?  A chorus would be preferable.

More people against one, so that majority rules? I don't think it quite works that way. The banned member should know about their situation more than you do... they can speak for themselves through the method I've mentioned above.