Why are Celestia and Luna considered "Gods"?

[ManaMinori 4,145]

Quite frankly, it makes me uncomfortable, as I don't feel it right seeing them as such, personally. I feel it falls under the whole Christian commandment of not worshiping false gods/ idols.

 

But that aside, I also believe that they just ARE NOT gods, nor do they deserve to be called such. While I am aware that on 2 occasion, in MLP, 2 ponies use Celestia's name as replacement for "God" (which also rubbed me the wrong way), in the context of "As Celestia as my witness _" yadda yadda yadda. Which was, in fact, a quote parodied from "Little House on the Prairie", so I can give that some leeway, since parodies/ lines from other media is something G4 has done from the start.

 

Outside of that, though, there doesn't seem to be enough evidence to claim Celestia and Luna as Gods. Yes, they may be long lived, but they haven't been around from the very beginning. The journal of the Two Sisters confirms that. Many episodes show that they also aren't infallible, and can fall and fail to villains. (Chrysalis, Nightmare Moon) Nor are they immortal, and no form of pony media we've been given confirms their immortality. In fact, the Journal of the Two Sisters, Celestia states that Alicorns simply age at a different rate than other ponies. The ONLY time the subject of immortality is EVER brought up in MLP, is in the "Daring Do and the Eternal Flower" book, by G.M. Berrow, which gives detail about a rare to find flower that- when consumed- bestows immortality to the one who ate it.

[Ashen Pathfinder 16,161]

It's just a head canon things, and it's largely dependent on a few things.

 

1. How ponies use Celestia's name in certain statements

 

2. The fact that Celestia and Luna are much older and more powerful than other ponies

 

3. That most of the other ponies in Equestria still look up and bow to them

 

So I think it's easy to see why some head-canons see them as deities.

[Spartan 433]

Just a few of my thoughts,

 

1. Immortality should be implied, considering they've been around for more than 1,000 years.. but many not immortal, maybe just able to live a really long time.

 

2. They have both horns and wings, thus 'better' than Unicorns and Pegisi, in a way.

 

3. They both control the freaking sun and moon. Also can do some crazy spells and what not. Twilight has learned many of hers from Celestia, so maybe the 'Goddess' title is earned :/

 

But maybe Celestia should be the lone one that has the title 'Goddess', since she moved both the sun and moon till Luna came back..

 

In Summery,

 

Both Luna and Celestia have been around for a VERY long time, Celestia being the eldest. Both know spells and can use many forms of magic, more so then any unicorn (minus Twilight) and they control celestial bodies that took entire teams of Unicorns to do..

 

Edit: Forgot, but "Gods and Goddess" are NOT a Christian thing.. it started at the earliest humans..

Edited April 15, 2015 by Spartan

[ManaMinori 4,145]

It's just a head canon things, and it's largely dependent on a few things.

 

1. How ponies use Celestia's name in certain statements

 

2. The fact that Celestia and Luna are much older and more powerful than other ponies

 

3. That most of the other ponies in Equestria still look up and bow to them

 

So I think it's easy to see why some head-canons see them as deities.

1: I already addressed that, but even IF that were so- seeing as how they only use Celestia's name in such context, that would only make HER one, and not Luna. If we're basing things off this occurrence, alone.

 

2: And Starswirl was (and still is) more powerful than they. What are you getting at?

 

3: you can bow/ look up to a person without them being a God. (I wouldn't advise it- bowing, specifically, but you get what I'm getting at

[Steel Accord 6,660]

 

 

I feel it falls under the whole Christian commandment of not worshiping false gods/ idols.

 

Well first of all, Christianity does not exist in Equestria, so the citizens there would not know such a Commandment. Speaking as a practicing Christian who does consider the Princesses to be deities both in-universe and in a personal sense; the First Commandment was meant to prevent idol worship. The canon of Judaism actually includes the existence of the gods of their neighbors, it's just that the Jewish people thought there's was the preeminent deity. 

 

 

 

But that aside, I also believe that they just ARE NOT gods, nor do they deserve to be called such. While I am aware that on 2 occasion, in MLP, 2 ponies use Celestia's name as replacement for "God" (which also rubbed me the wrong way), in the context of "As Celestia as my witness _" yadda yadda yadda. Which was, in fact, a quote parodied from "Little House on the Prairie", so I can give that some leeway, since parodies/ lines from other media is something G4 has done from the start.

 

True, but that leeway can also go in the other direction and be interpreted as at least partially religious reverence of the two. (Or at least Celestia given She's been around for more than a century while Luna's physical presence is more recent.)

 

 

 

Outside of that, though, there doesn't seem to be enough evidence to claim Celestia and Luna as Gods. Yes, they may be long lived, but they haven't been around from the very beginning. The journal of the Two Sisters confirms that.

 

 

True but long life itself is often considered a trait of many a historical divinity or at least associated with such. Methuselah lived to be over nine hundred years old according to Scripture.

 

 

 

Many episodes show that they also aren't infallible, and can fall and fail to villains. (Chrysalis, Nightmare Moon)

 

Osiris was felled, mutilated, and usurped by his own brother Set; oddly paralleling Luna and Celestia or Cain and Abel. Let's not forget the many times the Olympians vices were on full display in their various recountings.

 

Depending on interpretation, deities don't have to be perfect nor invincible, just greater than mortals. If that's not the kind of divinity you would worship, then you have that choice.

 

 

 

Nor are they immortal, and no form of pony media we've been given confirms their immortality. In fact, the Journal of the Two Sisters, Celestia states that Alicorns simply age at a different rate than other ponies. The ONLY time the subject of immortality is EVER brought up in MLP, is in the "Daring Do and the Eternal Flower" book, by G.M. Berrow, which gives detail about a rare to find flower that- when consumed- bestows immortality to the one who ate it.

 

Which brings to mind the golden apples of the Aesir. If they did not eat them, they would age and die just like mortals. They too could even be killed, Hell they knew how they were going to be killed! Yet the Norse still revered them and payed them their prayers and tributes.

 

Look, if it makes you uncomfortable than I understand, but it's not a completely indefensible claim either from a mythological, theological, or spiritual standpoint.

 

 

2: And Starswirl was (and still is) more powerful than they. What are you getting at?

 

Perhaps he was a demi-god? Exceptionally powerful and resourceful mortals are not unheard of in mythology.

 

 

 

3: you can bow/ look up to a person without them being a God. (I wouldn't advise it- bowing, specifically, but you get what I'm getting at

 

True, but then that's up to the person themeselves. When the ponies bow to Celestia, one could be thinking She is the Divine Eminence who long ago was the salvation Equestria, another could see Her as the laudable and worthy ruler of the realm, yet another is somewhere in between.

 

Faith and spirituality are very deep and personal. Even two people of the same religion might have wildly different interpretations and perspectives.

[ManaMinori 4,145]

Just a few of my thoughts,

 

1. Immortality should be implied, considering they've been around for more than 1,000 years.. but many not immortal, maybe just able to live a really long time.

 

2. They have both horns and wings, thus 'better' than Unicorns and Pegisi, in a way.

 

3. They both control the freaking sun and moon. Also can do some crazy spells and what not. Twilight has learned many of hers from Celestia, so maybe the 'Goddess' title is earned :/

 

But maybe Celestia should be the lone one that has the title 'Goddess', since she moved both the sun and moon till Luna came back..

 

In Summery,

 

Both Luna and Celestia have been around for a VERY long time, Celestia being the eldest. Both know spells and can use many forms of magic, more so then any unicorn (minus Twilight) and they control celestial bodies that took entire teams of Unicorns to do..

 

Edit: Forgot, but "Gods and Goddess" are NOT a Christian thing.. it started at the earliest humans..

1: so if you belive that to be true, then might you care to explain where the other "immortal" alicorns might be?

(Luna's Entry- Journal of the Two Sisters- page 7- "The Alicorns thought it was an important part of our education, but we both thought speaking like that every day sounded silly". So there are, in fact, other Alicorns. If they're immortal and didn't die, then....

2: You can be "better" than someone else and not be a god. =_= Additional limbs don't make you one. Try again.

3: So who controlled the sun and moon before Celestia and Luna did? (Journal of the two Sisters says it was a bunch of Unicorns, along with Starswirl) so should they also be considered Gods? They're just unicorns. And once more, Starswirl CREATED thousands of Spells. (do we know if Celestia or Luna did? Doubt it) Should he also be a God, by that standard?

[Ashen Pathfinder 16,161]

1: I already addressed that, but even IF that were so- seeing as how they only use Celestia's name in such context, that would only make HER one, and not Luna. If we're basing things off this occurrence, alone.

 

2: And Starswirl was (and still is) more powerful than they. What are you getting at?

 

3: you can bow/ look up to a person without them being a God. (I wouldn't advise it- bowing, specifically, but you get what I'm getting at

 

1. Doesn't really matter how it is addressed; that's just how some people look at it. Not everyone considers "The Journal of the Two Sisters" canon with the show. Honestly I agree with you in large part, but not everyone does.

 

2. That's debatable. Starswirl likely was more powerful than the sisters when they were young, but since then many centuries have come and gone and Celestia (and to a lesser extent Luna) have grown in power themselves. IIRC it is stated by Starswirl that alicorn abilities will naturally outdo that of unicorns.

 

3. That's irrelevant given the context. Just because you don't believe it as such doesn't mean the ponies don't. I understand you; though.

[Discordian 6,015]

They don't have to be ominopotent to be gods. Many gods, such as in Egyptian and Roman mythologies, have power over only a few things and while that power controls forces of nature and is far above that of man they can still act human and if they so deigned wander among humans.

 

Celestia and Luna have power over the night and day cycle and while they walk among the average pony they are very clearly a higher power.

 

For all intents and purposes a god or deity is defined by a worshiped entity that has far more power and understanding of the world than the dominant species of whatever land they purvey. Celestia and Luna are exactly this. Beings like Discord also fall into this category.

[Steel Accord 6,660]

 

 

2: You can be "better" than someone else and not be a god. =_= Additional limbs don't make you one. Try again.

 

No need to get snippy there Muffin, we're just having a polite debate.

 

 

 

3: So who controlled the sun and moon before Celestia and Luna did? (Journal of the two Sisters says it was a bunch of Unicorns, along with Starswirl) so should they also be considered Gods? They're just unicorns. And once more, Starswirl CREATED thousands of Spells. (do we know if Celestia or Luna did? Doubt it) Should he also be a God, by that standard?

 

A man can chop down a tree, but Hercules could rip it out of the ground and use it as a club. Being able to do alone what would take many mortals to do is also considered a divine trait in many myths. 

[Spartan 433]

1: so if you belive that to be true, then might you care to explain where the other "immortal" alicorns might be?

(Luna's Entry- Journal of the Two Sisters- page 7- "The Alicorns thought it was an important part of our education, but we both thought speaking like that every day sounded silly". So there are, in fact, other Alicorns. If they're immortal and didn't die, then....

2: You can be "better" than someone else and not be a god. =_= Additional limbs don't make you one. Try again.

3: So who controlled the sun and moon before Celestia and Luna did? (Journal of the two Sisters says it was a bunch of Unicorns, along with Starswirl) so should they also be considered Gods? They're just unicorns. And once more, Starswirl CREATED thousands of Spells. (do we know if Celestia or Luna did? Doubt it) Should he also be a God, by that standard?

1. Ive never read the journal to be honest. But remember, Luna was YOUNG back then, so everything was silly to her. Remember Celestia's entry about the trap door slide being her favorite? Plus, we don't know where the Alicorn are, maybe they were killed off or just left for whatever reason. Hell, i'd go as far as the Alicorns not being immortal, but people thinking they are because they live so long.

 

2. Not better as in 'Im better than you', but in terms of Alicorns being able to do magic, where Pegasi cant, and fly with wings where Unicorns cant (not magic wings, natural ones).

 

3. Considering it took MANY unicorns to move the sun and moon, where it only takes Celestia and Luna alone to do so.. i'd consider them Goddesses, in a way.

 

Maybe Celestia is just really powerful and is considered a goddess because of her strength? Luna is strong too, not saying she isn't, I'm just thinking how Celestia did her "job" for a thousand years, while doing her own

[Discordian 6,015]

I greatly dislike the fact that the entire purpose of this thread is to say "they aren't like my god so they can't possibly be considered to be on the same level". This is fiction, for crying out loud. What defines a god doesn't have to follow the same rules as real religions and it's not infringing on whatever false idol commandments if you aren't worshipping them. Those are two entirely different subjects.

[Spartan 433]

I greatly dislike the fact that the entire purpose of this thread is to say "they aren't like my god so they can't possibly be considered to be on the same level". This is fiction, for crying out loud. What defines a god doesn't have to follow the same rules as real religions and it's not infringing on whatever false idol commandments if you aren't worshipping them. Those are two entirely different subjects.

I agree, the only thing i worshop is Celestia's ever growing butt

[Steel Accord 6,660]

I greatly dislike the fact that the entire purpose of this thread is to say "they aren't like my god so they can't possibly be considered to be on the same level". This is fiction, for crying out loud. What defines a god doesn't have to follow the same rules as real religions and it's not infringing on whatever false idol commandments if you aren't worshipping them. Those are two entirely different subjects.

 

I agree to a certain extent, namely the intent of the message and not the slightly confrontational tone.

 

Yes though, it's like Gandalf in Lord of the Rings, or the Force in Star Wars, the presence of Celestia and Luna is meant to invoke a mythic feel. Which, incidentally, was the first thing that hooked me to the show, the fact that Celestia and Luna's backstory was told in the model of a myth meant to evoke celestia siblings such as Apollo and Artemis or Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi.

 

I agree, the only thing i worshop is Celestia's ever growing butt

 

Ugh . . . description of mythic archetypes and examples there of, followed/preceded by a butt joke. 

Edited April 15, 2015 by Steel Accord

[Spartan 433]

Ugh . . . description of mythic archetypes and examples there of, followed/preceded by a butt joke. 

 

You know darn well it's grown over the seasons.. Ok, im getting off topic, i apologize.

 

Just because someone is VERY powerful, doesn't make them a god/goddess.. the people who aren't as powerful may see them as that

[Steel Accord 6,660]

You know darn well it's grown over the seasons.. Ok, im getting off topic, i apologize.

 

Just because someone is VERY powerful, doesn't make them a god/goddess.. the people who aren't as powerful may see them as that

 

I agree . . . . to the ladder.

 

That's part of what I'm saying, in-universe, the ponies may be as diverse in their religious opinions as we are. Out of universe, it's all up to interpretation. As art, two sets of eyes can look at the same piece and actually see two different things.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Steel Accord

[Discordian 6,015]

You know darn well it's grown over the seasons.. Ok, im getting off topic, i apologize.

 

Just because someone is VERY powerful, doesn't make them a god/goddess.. the people who aren't as powerful may see them as that

This is the internet. There was no way there wasn't going to be one in here somewhere.

 

It does depend on what defines a god though. Is a god purely a creator? One who wields unimaginable power? Someone who isn't tied by the laws of physics?

 

I'd think if nothing else the fact that Celestia and Luna have an effect on the ecosystem of Equestria and general workings of the universe is enough to make them gods of a sort. It makes them akin to gods like Poseidon who rule and control the sea. Even if a human can make a splash, roam the sea on a boat and affect local fish population they don't have any real control over these things.

[Steel Accord 6,660]

It does depend on what defines a god though.

 

Just to prove your point.

 

 

Is a god purely a creator?

 

In Hinduism Brahma is the creator and that's His ONLY job, Vishnu and Shiva are the preserver and destroyer. In a similar fashion, God the Father created the world, but Jesus, and the Holy Spirit did not have creation on their list of miracles.

 

 

One who wields unimaginable power?

 

 

Probably the largest net definition as even Superman has been described as god-like and explicitly compared to a god more than once by both friend and enemy.

 

 

 

Someone who isn't tied by the laws of physics?

 

Why hello Discord, what are you- *entire empty space in room is replaced by strawberry jello* 

Edited April 15, 2015 by Steel Accord

[Discordian 6,015]

Just to prove your point.

 

 

 

In Hinduism Brahma is the creator and that's His ONLY job, Vishnu and Shiva are the preserver and destroyer. In a similar fashion, God the Father created the world, but Jesus, and the Holy Spirit did not have creation on their list of miracles.

 

 

 

 

Probably the largest net definition as even Superman has been described as god-like and explicitly compared to a god more than once by both friend and enemy.

 

 

 

 

Why hello Discord, what are you- *entire empty space in room is replaced by strawberry jello*

It's pretty hard to define it, isn't it? Any being reasonably above understanding by a certain creature could be considered a god. Especially in fiction. What happens when you have a regular artist guy who happens to create a universe simply by drawing a comic or writing a novel? Never Ending Story, anyone?

[Steel Accord 6,660]

It's pretty hard to define it, isn't it? Any being reasonably above understanding by a certain creature could be considered a god. Especially in fiction. What happens when you have a regular artist guy who happens to create a universe simply by drawing a comic or writing a novel? Never Ending Story, anyone?

 

That's part of why many modern faiths choose not to be too explicit about God beyond the scripture handed down to them. We don't know the Divine's true nature, as mortals we're limited by what we can conceive as thought. So an intelligence beyond our thought is incomprehensible.

 

I think people with enough wisdom can at least get an idea though and fiction is one of the best platforms on which to deliver ideals and messages of faith and philosophy.

 

If our own creations do indeed cause the existence of other universes to spring into life, I've already created at least three.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Steel Accord

[Fractured 2,684]

Well, there's this, from the Friends Forever comic #7:

A subtle nod at the fact that the two sisters were, in fact, worshiped as deities at one point or another. Considering that the Journal of the Two Sisters point out that they essentially saved Equestria by moving the Sun and Moon (the unicorns being able to do it, but unable to maintain it anymore), it makes sense that they would form as a central point of power and respect in the average ponies lives.

 

Also, the term "god" is relative. Even among real religions, gods vary in power and intelligence. Some are even highly fallible, or even mortal, (think of the Christian god vs the gods from Norse mythology), which means gods neither have to be all-powerful or all knowing. They just need to have abilities beyond that of "normal" understanding, something that the Royal Sisters have in spades compared to those around.

[Discordian 6,015]

That's part of why many modern faiths choose not to be too explicit about God beyond the scripture handed down to them. We don't know the Divine's true nature, as mortals we're limited by what we can conceive as thought. So an intelligence beyond our thought is incomprehensible.

 

I think people with enough wisdom can at least get an idea though and fiction is one of the best platforms on which to deliver ideals and messages of faith and philosophy.

 

If our own creations do indeed cause the existence of other universes to spring into life, I've already created at least three.

And while it's not on paper anywhere I have a universe in my head that I've had going since I was a toddler. Literally. I like to think that I created some vast universe when I was a child that I've slowly evolved over time. Twenty years of existential quandaries in the making.

 

Here's to the creative side of our brains!

 

[Ashen Pathfinder 16,161]

@@Nightmare Muffin

 

Just letting you know that I edited the topic of your title as it was somewhat wordy. It was changed to better reflect the intention of your OP and to be a little more concise and to the point.

 

Thanks.

[DJPON-3-#Power11 78]

they are not gods they are powerful alicorns who rule equestria. celestia, luna and twilight. are apart of a species who are unicorn and pegasis.

[yisetab28 89]

Because you know, they created the world, raise the sun and moon everyday, defeated Discord one time and have lived for more than 1000 years?

[Adorkable 2,737]

I've never seen them as gods, but more as well-respected leaders.