General issues with Spike

[BastementSparkle 20,326]

Just now, -Enigma- said:

From those situations Dragon Quest and The Crystal empire are only ones that I feel that he is acting genuine 

As in Dragon Quest it was his own choice not to smash the egg  compared to the Equestria Games for example where it really wasnt a choice as if he did not do that he would've pretty much died  or atleast many ponies would've died so I dont really see that kind of choices as choices that can define his character as they are pretty obvious choices to anyone in that situation and because of that I see them as "forced" 

 

Yeah he has qualities that enable him to do that but i dont thing that the examples that the show has presented us are the best representation of his qualities and that is why i feel that his character doesnt add to much 

In "Equestria Games" Spike could have easily run away from the Ice Cloud, fled from the stadium, give into fear and try to save his own skin without worrying about others. Same thing with "Gauntlet of Fire", Garble and the others threaten ponies, but Spike could easily justify going home to himself if he really wanted to. Equestria has guards, it has Princesses with great magical power, it has Twilight and the girls who deal with dangerous situations all the time with or without the elements, he could easily turn and head back home but he doesn't.

In these situations, Spike might be "Forced" into making a choice, but the choice he makes is still an indication of his character. He's brave when he has to be, he'd willingly place himself in harms way to protect others, rather than turn tail and run, he'll do things he doesn't want to do for the sake of his friends. Just because one is forced into a situation where they have to make a choice, doesn't mean the choice they make has no reflection on their character. When put to the test, Spike will stand up for what he knows is right.

[碇 シンジン 27,431]

Just now, BasementSparkle said:

In "Equestria Games" Spike could have easily run away from the Ice Cloud, fled from the stadium, give into fear and try to save his own skin without worrying about others. Same thing with "Gauntlet of Fire", Garble and the others threaten ponies, but Spike could easily justify going home to himself if he really wanted to. Equestria has guards, it has Princesses with great magical power, it has Twilight and the girls who deal with dangerous situations all the time with or without the elements, he could easily turn and head back home but he doesn't.

In these situations, Spike might be "Forced" into making a choice, but the choice he makes is still an indication of his character. He's brave when he has to be, he'd willingly place himself in harms way to protect others, rather than turn tail and run, he'll do things he doesn't want to do for the sake of his friends. Just because one is forced into a situation where they have to make a choice, doesn't mean the choice they make has no reflection on their character. When put to the test, Spike will stand up for what he knows is right.

Yeah being "forced" into a choice doesnt make the choice any less relevant, but from my experience "forcing" the characters choices in storytelling is usually not the best way to develop the storyline or the character in question. It might have something to do with the nature of the show as I feel that the more exaggerated the situation is usually the choices in that situation are more forced.

Though sometimes even forced choices can be intertwined into the story seamlessly though that usually requires laying a solid foundation beforehand to support that "forcing". On Spikes situation I dont feel that there is much foundation in those choices, they feel mostly spontaneous in the moment choices that dont really reveal any depths from his character. I see them also as quite straightforward  fro example saving the Equestria Games was pretty much just saving the Equestria Games  on the other hand not smashing the egg reflected on how Spike was born from an egg himself and because of that there were values that were important enough to him to make him decide the way he decided.

[BastementSparkle 20,326]

Just now, -Enigma- said:

Yeah being "forced" into a choice doesnt make the choice any less relevant, but from my experience "forcing" the characters choices in storytelling is usually not the best way to develop the storyline or the character in question. It might have something to do with the nature of the show as I feel that the more exaggerated the situation is usually the choices in that situation are more forced.

Though sometimes even forced choices can be intertwined into the story seamlessly though that usually requires laying a solid foundation beforehand to support that "forcing". On Spikes situation I dont feel that there is much foundation in those choices, they feel mostly spontaneous in the moment choices that dont really reveal any depths from his character. I see them also as quite straightforward  fro example saving the Equestria Games was pretty much just saving the Equestria Games  on the other hand not smashing the egg reflected on how Spike was born from an egg himself and because of that there were values that were important enough to him to make him decide the way he decided.

I guess I just don't see the choices he makes in these scenarios as "Forced" in the same way you seem to. Obviously, the choice to stay behind and compete in say "Gauntlet of Fire" is needed to progress the plot, and it might not say anything particularly new or in-depth about Spike's character, but I don't somehow view it as forced or invalid because of it. It's an instance of Spike deciding to stay behind and do something hard, potentially dangerous to help his friends, that's consistent with his character to me and it makes sense as a decision for him to make. Same thing with the Equestria Games incident. These cases didn't feel "Forced" in any real way to me, they felt like they fit perfectly into the episodes.

 

[碇 シンジン 27,431]

Just now, BasementSparkle said:

I guess I just don't see the choices he makes in these scenarios as "Forced" in the same way you seem to. Obviously, the choice to stay behind and compete in say "Gauntlet of Fire" is needed to progress the plot, and it might not say anything particularly new or in-depth about Spike's character, but I don't somehow view it as forced or invalid because of it. It's an instance of Spike deciding to stay behind and do something hard, potentially dangerous to help his friends, that's consistent with his character to me and it makes sense as a decision for him to make. Same thing with the Equestria Games incident. These cases didn't feel "Forced" in any real way to me, they felt like they fit perfectly into the episodes.

 

Yeah they fit the episodes but i think that is the issue there as it feels like they are using Spike as a tool to make the episode consistent without the regard of the actual characterization that motivates those choices and actions. I admit there is slight characterization in there sometimes but in most cases i dont feel that it was enough to justify the action completely.

It feels like the show is trying to deliberately dumb down Spike and his choices to appeal more to the target audience, it really isnt an issue on episodes where Spike is not in the focus, but when he is on the focus something just puts me off on most of those episodes or maybe i am reading his role in the show somehow wrong.

I mean the episodes are good even the Spike episodes as episodes, but Spike in them is not good as I feel his characterization seems to be lacking somehow in most of them. 

[BastementSparkle 20,326]

11 minutes ago, -Enigma- said:

Yeah they fit the episodes but i think that is the issue there as it feels like they are using Spike as a tool to make the episode consistent without the regard of the actual characterization that motivates those choices and actions. I admit there is slight characterization in there sometimes but in most cases i dont feel that it was enough to justify the action completely.

It feels like the show is trying to deliberately dumb down Spike and his choices to appeal more to the target audience, it really isnt an issue on episodes where Spike is not in the focus, but when he is on the focus something just puts me off on most of those episodes or maybe i am reading his role in the show somehow wrong.

I mean the episodes are good even the Spike episodes as episodes, but Spike in them is not good as I feel his characterization seems to be lacking somehow in most of them. 

I disagree that there isn't enough there to justify the actions, as I said, Spike's shown time and time again he's capable of being selfless, generous, or brave. You keep saying all of these actions are "Forced" as if he has no agency in them. To me, it feels like you've already decided Spike is a certain way, and when something comes up that contradicts what you seem to think of him, you decide it's forced or inconsistent every time, rather than rethinking your opinions on who Spike is.

 I pointed out so many instances above of Spike doing these things, to me it seems like Spike's decision making in these cases has actually been rather consistent. If you were to point to instances of Spike being "Dumbed down", then episodes like Equestria Games, Gauntlet of Fire or The Times are a Changeling are absolutely not the ones I'd pick as they're pretty much some of the best episodes he has. Spike's decision making in all of them makes sense too. He chooses to compete in the Gauntlet because he knows the dragons are a potential threat to Equestria and therefore his friends, if he can manage to win the Gauntlet he can keep them safe. He chooses to stand up for Thorax because he's come to know the Changeling and consider him a friend, and to Spike, standing up for your friends and giving people another chance is important, that's probably a lesson he's learned from Twilight. His decision making in "Equestria Games" is a split second one he makes on the fly, there's no time to stop and think much there, but it shows that his first instinct when his friends are in danger is to leap into action and try to help.

 I guess what I'm thinking is, is that it seems like you feel these situations are "Forced" because you have an image of Spike they contradict somehow. I don't think these actions are at all inconsistent or unjustified within the show, but they are to the image of him you've created. 

[碇 シンジン 27,431]

Just now, BasementSparkle said:

 I guess what I'm thinking is, is that it seems like you feel these situations are "Forced" because you have an image of Spike they contradict somehow. I don't think these actions are at all inconsistent or unjustified within the show, but they are to the image of him you've created. 

Yeah I agree with that seems like our interpretations of his character differ somehow and that is quite normal I think as people rarely see any characters completely same way someone else sees them. As it is quite common that people reflect and feel the characters through themselves and that can be one major factor on how they interpret the way the character is represented in the medium.

 

[BastementSparkle 20,326]

Just now, -Enigma- said:

Yeah I agree with that seems like our interpretations of his character differ somehow and that is quite normal I think as people rarely see any characters completely same way someone else sees them. As it is quite common that people reflect and feel the characters through themselves and that can be one major factor on how they interpret the way the character is represented in the medium.

 

Agreed, everybody interprets characters differently. That said, next time you rewatch the show, if you do, try to set those preconceived ideas of Spike aside and just watch his episodes, think of how they might make sense and what they might mean for his character overall as you go, rather than dismissing anything right away. Maybe your opinion on him might change over time...or it won't, might be interesting to see though.

[碇 シンジン 27,431]

7 minutes ago, BasementSparkle said:

Agreed, everybody interprets characters differently. That said, next time you rewatch the show, if you do, try to set those preconceived ideas of Spike aside and just watch his episodes, think of how they might make sense and what they might mean for his character overall as you go, rather than dismissing anything right away. Maybe your opinion on him might change over time...or it won't, might be interesting to see though.

Yeah I always try to approach things from different perspectives and I've been partly aware of that I've been looking Spike in partly distorted light and not completely objectively. It hasnt really been bothering me that much so I didnt do anything about it. Could be interesting to watch the show from that standpoint.

[Truffles 2,033]

Heh, when I heard the phrase "bad boy," instead of Spike I thought of this guy:

Meet "Speck" - Honker J. Muddlefoot's identity-crisis induced alter-ego from the Darkwing Duck episode, "Calm a Chameleon."

For some reason, Spike and Honker seem like kindred spirits, even though they don't have much in common personality-wise.

As for the topic at hand, Spike is nicely balanced out between being nice and being a smart-aleck. I don't think that makes him bad at all.