Discussing Shining Armor and the Canterlot wedding rehearsal

[Wardaddy 470]

Guys, for what may be the first time in my existence on this forum, I've decided to open up a simple "what if" discussion on Shining Armor and how he treated Twilight at the wedding rehearsal, and the "what if" part asks the possibility of "A Canterlot Wedding" becoming a three-parter or an extended two-parter (which obviously didn't happen). Personally, I'm very much against the way he cast Twilight out. Just think of the mental scars he may have left inside her, considering the fact he's the brother she looked up to, loved dearly, and called Big Brother Best Friend Forever, and for him to have tongue-lashed her the way he did, it must have hurt. (Remember now, this is an entirely "what if" discussion) And it didn't help when the Mane 5 and Celestia followed suit.

 

Now, for this discussion, I will try to remain as neutral as possible, but try not to mention that Twilight deserved it, because look, yes, her actions were rash and foalish, and the circumstances weren't in her favour, but she was left with no other option other than to confront the impostor Cadance openly. Her friends were caught up in the glory and pride of being chosen as bridesmaids, Shining was under Chrysalis's leash, and Celestia was away tending to other duties, and all this made them so blind to the point where they couldn't see the discrepancies in the impostor Cadance's behaviour. Add to that the threat of an attack by an unknown force which Shining and Celestia were the first to learn of.......they should've been a lot more wary. Anyways, I'll leave it to you guys. Vote in the poll and leave your comments below

Edited September 19, 2013 by Firebolt Blitz

[Magic Man 222]

While I appreciate you WANT to stay neutral, from the way you're writing this, you seem to be very much more sympathetic to Twilight than the others and in doing so, unintentionally leading those who would answer this thread.

 

The only excuse you seem to have for Shining armor's actions were that he was under Chrysalis' control. Here's an alternative; he was genuinely hurt and upset by Twilight's actions and from his POV and an observer's glance, had every right to be angry.

 

He and Twilight are siblings and close ones at that, however there has been a certain tension between them over Twilight not being notified earlier on. However, he did expect Twilight to as least be happy for him and the foalsitter she loved. There was no reason, from his point of view, why she should not be accepting of their upcoming union. So when Twilight came bursting in and screeching her accusations like a harpy at who he believes is the mare he loves, accusations which he could all easily counter, she ended up really hurting and alienating him, again because of this supposed aforementioned inability to be happy for him. You have to look at it from his perspective; that Twilight was wrong and viciously slandered his wife, the mare he's choosing to dedicate his life to. It's also important to note that if we go by that SA was not as brainwashed yet and was genuinely upset was Twilight, it shows how much he really does love Cadence, as he's willing to defend her, even from his sister.

 

We also have to keep in mind that SA's explanations were not diabolical in their intent and sounded perfectly believable in context, thus he and the others' reactions can be seen as further justified, which only makes the sting of it all even more painful. I mean, for all we knew, he was right and Twilight was wrong and had just been possessive. Hell, if not for the episode's very last minute, or even half-minute and the episode ended BEFORE that, we would have thought she was wrong too. Then how would the viewers have initially felt? Would it have been all "oh, poor Twilight" or that and "oh, Twilight, you moron!"?

 

Something similar can be said for the others. The only excuse you can fathom for them is that they were caught up in the pride and glory of being bridesmaids and nothing else; is it really hard for to accept that they were justifiably angry at Twilight's behaviour and actions like any other person from their position in the situation. They were already aware of Twilight's possessiveness of her brother, even after the Mane Six discussed it the previous night. Yeah, a lot of people claim they didn't learn their lesson from season zero, but unlike then, in this episode they actually did take the time to listen to Twilight's concerns. All they see is her badmouthing the bride for no reason other than possessive jealousy and an inability to be happy for her brother even after they tried to reassure her, which must have really disappointed them in her. As for Princess Celestia, she has taught and pretty much brought up Twilight, acting like a surrogate mother to her and sent her to Ponyville to learn more social skills. Seeing her prize student acting so immaturely really must have disappointed her because she knows Twilight knows better than that. It's made worse because Cadence is Celestia's niece, her family. She and Twilight are close, but Cadance is her family. 

 

And let's talk about Twilight's actions: Twilight burst into the rehearsal and immediately made extremely serious accusations against a member of the ROYAL FAMILY with ZERO solid evidence to back any of it up, whilst acting as hysterical as possible and said accusations consisting pretty much of her just screaming "Evil". This isn't on par with the Smarty Pants incident, this is a royal family member and an official royal wedding. This is pretty much as serious as it can get. Also, Twilight picks the near enough the worst way to bring these issues up - at the wedding rehersal, and considering how we don't see a night transistion, I think we can rightly assume the wedding is on the exact same day!

 

Also, on a minor note, I think SA telling her not to the wedding come is kinda a given, because why should she come to a wedding she's clearly opposed to even happening? I don’t see it as 'you're not allowed to come so to punish you' as it is 'if this is how you feel, then don't come'.

 

HOWEVER, if we're talking about a three parter, or even just more time at the time of the second, I do suppose a scene of them still apologizing to Twilight would be justified, if just to give the matter a sense of closure, as well as having Twilight apologizing for her own rash decisions and how she handled herself.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Magic Man

[Wardaddy 470]

While I appreciate you WANT to stay neutral, from the way you're writing this, you seem to be very much more sympathetic to Twilight than the others and in doing so, unintentionally leading those who would answer this thread.

 

The only excuse you seem to have for Shining armor's actions were that he was under Chrysalis' control. Here's an alternative; he was genuinely hurt and upset by Twilight's actions and from his POV and an observer's glance, had every right to be angry.

 

He and Twilight are siblings and close ones at that, however there has been a certain tension between them over Twilight not being notified earlier on. However, he did expect Twilight to as least be happy for him and the foalsitter she loved. There was no reason, from his point of view, why she should not be accepting of their upcoming union. So when Twilight came bursting in and screeching her accusations like a harpy at who he believes is the mare he loves, accusations which he could all easily counter, she ended up really hurting and alienating him, again because of this supposed aforementioned inability to be happy for him. You have to look at it from his perspective; that Twilight was wrong and viciously slandered his wife, the mare he's choosing to dedicate his life to. It's also important to note that if we go by that SA was not as brainwashed yet and was genuinely upset was Twilight, it shows how much he really does love Cadence, as he's willing to defend her, even from his sister.

 

We also have to keep in mind that SA's explanations were not diabolical in their intent and sounded perfectly believable in context, thus he and the others' reactions can be seen as further justified, which only makes the sting of it all even more painful. I mean, for all we knew, he was right and Twilight was wrong and had just been possessive. Hell, if not for the episode's very last minute, or even half-minute and the episode ended BEFORE that, we would have thought she was wrong too. Then how would the viewers have initially felt? Would it have been all "oh, poor Twilight" or that and "oh, Twilight, you moron!"?

 

Something similar can be said for the others. The only excuse you can fathom for them is that they were caught up in the pride and glory of being bridesmaids and nothing else; is it really hard for to accept that they were justifiably angry at Twilight's behaviour and actions like any other person from their position in the situation. They were already aware of Twilight's possessiveness of her brother, even after the Mane Six discussed it the previous night. Yeah, a lot of people claim they didn't learn their lesson from season zero, but unlike then, in this episode they actually did take the time to listen to Twilight's concerns. All they see is her badmouthing the bride for no reason other than possessive jealousy and an inability to be happy for her brother even after they tried to reassure her, which must have really disappointed them in her. As for Princess Celestia, she has taught and pretty much brought up Twilight, acting like a surrogate mother to her and sent her to Ponyville to learn more social skills. Seeing her prize student acting so immaturely really must have disappointed her because she knows Twilight knows better than that. It's made worse because Cadence is Celestia's niece, her family. She and Twilight are close, but Cadance is her family. 

 

And let's talk about Twilight's actions: Twilight burst into the rehearsal and immediately made extremely serious accusations against a member of the ROYAL FAMILY with ZERO solid evidence to back any of it up, whilst acting as hysterical as possible and said accusations consisting pretty much of her just screaming "Evil". This isn't on par with the Smarty Pants incident, this is a royal family member and an official royal wedding. This is pretty much as serious as it can get. Also, Twilight picks the near enough the worst way to bring these issues up - at the wedding rehersal, and considering how we don't see a night transistion, I think we can rightly assume the wedding is on the exact same day!

 

Also, on a minor note, I think SA telling her not to the wedding come is kinda a given, because why should she come to a wedding she's clearly opposed to even happening? I don’t see it as 'you're not allowed to come so to punish you' as it is 'if this is how you feel, then don't come'.

 

HOWEVER, if we're talking about a three parter, or even just more time at the time of the second, I do suppose a scene of them still apologizing to Twilight would be justified, if just to give the matter a sense of closure, as well as having Twilight apologizing for her own rash decisions and how she handled herself.

Well, that's how I personally feel about the situation, it's just in this discussion that I intend to remain neutral. As for the Shining Armor alternative, I was also aware of that. I was just bringing the fact to the forefront that Chrysalis had Shining under mind control, but with respect to what you said, what he said appeared very much his own words borne from his own offended mind. And yes, he did have every right to be angry. Twilight just bullied his bride to tears (a princess, no less), called her evil and ran her out of the hall like an overpossessive brat with 0% proof to back up her claims, as you said and as I'm totally aware of.

 

Ok, so Twilight wasn't happy about not being notified by Shining personally. That's not a big deal at all! The main fact that a sister should be aware of is that her brother's getting married and thus she should be happy for him, to the point where it's almost a custom. When Twilight viciously slandered her bride, like you said, of course he was going to get mad, because Twilight, his sister whom he expected to be happy for him and her favourite foalsitter getting married, just ran in and starting ranting and raving like a foal in a temper tantrum, seriously hurting both him and his bride. Don't you dare think for a minute that I don't think Shining's reaction was warranted; it was more than warranted, it was, in fact, guaranteed to happen. I should know, I've been in many situations where I accused people of malicious intent with no proof, and lost. (I regret them all)  Twilight's situation is no different. Shining had every right to be mad and that is just one part of a load of facts revolving around this scene that make up a sort of yin and yang in my mind. Furthermore, it's even more obvious that if it were Shining Armor telling Twilight off on his own, he wouldn't want to hurt Twilight like he was shown to, although a good, firm telling off was in order. It's just that under Chrysalis's influence, and her mind control, perhaps the smallest bit of malice and vigorous hurt was peppered into Shining's words. But yeah, for Shining to have been so vigorous and firm, it just goes to show he really loves Cadance, and would stand against anypony to protect her.

 

And yes, the same can be said for the Mane 5. They've all known Twilight for long enough that what happened at the rehearsal was just another of her outbursts, only in this case it was far more disappointing than in Lesson Zero, which, like you said, came nowhere close to the seriousness of the rehearsal. They had every right to be disappointed in Twilight, as did Celestia. The latter had taught and cared for Twilight like a second mother, and sure enough her actions at the rehearsal showed Celestia had clearly she had the nerve to stoop to such levels. I am fully aware of the fact that while there was no malicious intent in the actions of Shining Armor, the Mane 5 or Celestia, I can't help but feel bad for Twilight. It's just human nature, you know, to feel empathy. In fact, you're absolutely right. If it weren't for the ending of Part 1, and if that was the real Cadance, we would've all been disappointed in Twilight, especially me.  

 

Ok, your argument is convincing enough, I'm just throwing my hat into one side of the ring here, and that side of the ring is Twilight's side. However, for this discussion I will try my utmost best to keep a neutral stance. I am the OP here, and therefore it would be unfair of me to pick a side for the duration of this discussion.

[Antismurf9001 1,271]

I have to agree with just about every point that Magic Man made.  I personally don't believe that anyone had any reason to apologize to Twilight: even though it turned out that her gut feeling just happened to be correct, that doesn't mean that the way she went about informing everyone was correct.  As for that being her only option, I disagree.  She could have confronted her brother in a calm manner and explained her reasoning.  Better yet, she could have confronted Celestia/Luna in private (in order to avoid Shining's bias in Cadance's favor), and perhaps together they could have noticed a link between the threat against Canterlot and Cadance's odd behavior.  There were plenty of options that did not involve, what essentially amounted to, a public witch trial.

[Wardaddy 470]

I have to agree with just about every point that Magic Man made.  I personally don't believe that anyone had any reason to apologize to Twilight: even though it turned out that her gut feeling just happened to be correct, that doesn't mean that the way she went about informing everyone was correct.  As for that being her only option, I disagree.  She could have confronted her brother in a calm manner and explained her reasoning.  Better yet, she could have confronted Celestia/Luna in private (in order to avoid Shining's bias in Cadance's favor), and perhaps together they could have noticed a link between the threat against Canterlot and Cadance's odd behavior.  There were plenty of options that did not involve, what essentially amounted to, a public witch trial.

It is true that she could've gone about informing Shining and co. about her suspicions of "Cadance" using a better method other than open confrontation (at the worst possible time), unfortunately the circumstances were not working in her favour. Chrysalis had managed to tie down Shining to the point where he couldn't move of his own free will, and besides, he was mostly around her for the length of the episode. If Twi had gone to her, she'd most likely get a biased report in favour of "Cadance" which you're aware of. She could've also gone to the princesses, but as far as we know, Luna played no active part in the proceedings other than keeping watch at night. Now Celestia.....it's probable enough, but we don't know what she was doing before the rehearsal, other than tending to her paperwork among other things (including keeping the shield going). Anyway, that's just my two bits on this matter. What I do know (coming from a discussion with a friend elsewhere on this matter) is that Twi's options were all whittled down to one. She had nopony else to turn to. Nothing else to do. The Mane 5 were her friends, but they didn't care for her feelings, they cared only for the glitz and glamour that came with her, especially in that moment. All that was on their minds was wedding gossip, and the much honoured and coveted knowledge that they were chosen to be the bride's official bridesmaids. Now I don't know if you're female or not, but think about it for a minute. How would you react if you were chosen to be a bridesmaid?  In Shining Armor's case, he was tied down to Chrysalis like an anchor to a ship, unable to move or talk by himself, and Celestia was too engrossed in ensuring Canterlot's safety from this unknown threat that she failed to look under her nose. What else could Twi have done?! Strategically, there was only one option left: Expose the fiend for who she was. And while I admit that she went about that horribly, you can't deny that it was her only option at that stage.

[Planty 1,053]

I have to agree with just about every point that Magic Man made.  I personally don't believe that anyone had any reason to apologize to Twilight: even though it turned out that her gut feeling just happened to be correct, that doesn't mean that the way she went about informing everyone was correct.  As for that being her only option, I disagree.  She could have confronted her brother in a calm manner and explained her reasoning.  Better yet, she could have confronted Celestia/Luna in private (in order to avoid Shining's bias in Cadance's favor), and perhaps together they could have noticed a link between the threat against Canterlot and Cadance's odd behavior.  There were plenty of options that did not involve, what essentially amounted to, a public witch trial.

 

This is quite true, at the time Twilight comes over as very "in your face" and plays into Fake Cadence's hands in chasing her away.

 

Although everyone did seem almost be-witched with the wedding she defiantly could have gone about her business in a better way then she did !

[Wardaddy 470]

This is quite true, at the time Twilight comes over as very "in your face" and plays into Fake Cadence's hands in chasing her away.

 

Although everyone did seem almost be-witched with the wedding she defiantly could have gone about her business in a better way then she did !

That does appear to be the popular opinion on everypony's minds when it comes to that particular episode. Unfortunately, I will have to reiterate. Twilight had nopony to turn to. Shining was under Chrysalis's leash (the extent we can only speculate, my guess is that while it wasn't very strong, it was strong enough to rob Shining of his free will), the Mane 5 were lost in gossip and the thought of becoming bridesmaids, and Celestia was too busy tightening security. Nopony could've dealt with Twilight at that time, leaving the matter in her own two hooves. As frank as it is, it's what I believe.

[Planty 1,053]

That does appear to be the popular opinion on everypony's minds when it comes to that particular episode. Unfortunately, I will have to reiterate. Twilight had nopony to turn to. Shining was under Chrysalis's leash (the extent we can only speculate, my guess is that while it wasn't very strong, it was strong enough to rob Shining of his free will), the Mane 5 were lost in gossip and the thought of becoming bridesmaids, and Celestia was too busy tightening security. Nopony could've dealt with Twilight at that time, leaving the matter in her own two hooves. As frank as it is, it's what I believe.

 

Thats in the end, not being able to confide with someone in that situation would just drive you over the edge (as it eventually did).

 

I think we also focus on Twilight possibly being wrong to much as well and maybe pinning the blame or her when she wasn't!

[Wardaddy 470]

Thats in the end, not being able to confide with someone in that situation would just drive you over the edge (as it eventually did).

 

I think we also focus on Twilight possibly being wrong to much as well and maybe pinning the blame or her when she wasn't!

Exactly! Everypony focuses too much on the idea if Twi turned out to be wrong! Now, yeah, if she was wrong, the ending would be catastrophic. But thankfully, she wasn't wrong. And again, yes, with Twilight on her own (before the rehearsal) it was pretty clear she could only act on her own, even if she did it in a less than graceful fashion.

[FNGRpony 658]

Ultimately i think i'd butt heads with princess celesital.  Even if i tried not to really, damn hard.

 

I'd give shinning armor a mulligan, he'd be family and you have to lump it when it comes to family.

[Wardaddy 470]

Ultimately i think i'd butt heads with princess celesital.  Even if i tried not to really, damn hard.

 

I'd give shinning armor a mulligan, he'd be family and you have to lump it when it comes to family.

Um, I'm not sure I'm getting you dude. But from what I can tell, perhaps going to Celestia is the better solution. As said in the choice, it is only good and noble of you to go to her first.

 

Give Shining Armor a mulligan? Care to explain what that means?

[FNGRpony 658]

well the question is "would you like shinning armor to be punished."

If i was twilight he'd be my brother so I'd give him a mulligan.  (Means a do over).

I think I'd give him a pass.  Family does annoying things even when their not in love.

 

As for celestial if i really though there was something wrong I'd be concerned with her hands off approach, i'd be worried about her saying
"what do you think twilight?" And shot me an all knowing wink as if the answer was all obvious like.  I'd fly into a swirling shit storm (at least internally) of hate and rage.  So ultimately I wouldn't know what to do.

I think i'd ask pinkie.  (LOL) normally situations like that I'd turn to the trouble making in the group who's likely to agree with my bad idea as a scape goat for why I did it, and PInkie pie is the chum lee so to speak out of the main six.

[Wardaddy 470]

well the question is "would you like shinning armor to be punished."

If i was twilight he'd be my brother so I'd give him a mulligan.  (Means a do over).

I think I'd give him a pass.  Family does annoying things even when their not in love.

 

As for celestial if i really though there was something wrong I'd be concerned with her hands off approach, i'd be worried about her saying

"what do you think twilight?" And shot me an all knowing wink as if the answer was all obvious like.  I'd fly into a swirling shit storm (at least internally) of hate and rage.  So ultimately I wouldn't know what to do.

I think i'd ask pinkie.  (LOL) normally situations like that I'd turn to the trouble making in the group who's likely to agree with my bad idea as a scape goat for why I did it, and PInkie pie is the chum lee so to speak out of the main six.

Oh, that explains a lot. If I were Twilight, I'd be wanting to apologise for my actions, but not if he can't remember what he did (on account of him being brainwashed)

 

LOL, its so obvious, who else do you go to when you're in a shitstorm? Good ol' Pinkie Pie, never fails to lift the old spirits. But seriously, even though I don't have a clue what you just said there, I can sort of make out that you'd be wanting to go to Celestia, and that's fine by me.

[FNGRpony 658]

Ahem, I feel princess celestial does not handle things directly.  most of the time.

Which is why i said she has a hands off approach.

 

I get the feeling if i asked her a question she'd ask me "What do you think you should do."

assuming if i really thought about it I'd come to the right conclusion based on the fact she's hands (or hooves) off.

[Wardaddy 470]

Ahem, I feel princess celestial does not handle things directly.  most of the time.

Which is why i said she has a hands off approach.

 

I get the feeling if i asked her a question she'd ask me "What do you think you should do."

assuming if i really thought about it I'd come to the right conclusion based on the fact she's hands (or hooves) off.

OK yeah, but the question here is "would you go to her to apologise, or would you wait for her in hopes she'll come to you?" Don't stray off topic here mate.