Completely innocent lies.

[SkyDream 315]

A lot of people have a strong concept that lying is always wrong. I can understand that point of view.

 

Another lot of people, usually separate from the first group, also believe that looking at the future potential result is more important than the means by which we get there, as long as it does the least amount of harm. Naturally.

 

So there could exist a type of lie that is so innocuous that it cannot possibly really harm anyone. Is it still okay to lie under such a condition?

 

For example, I have a pair of slippers in my room that I tend to use. My mom never seems to have noticed them. She recently bought me a pair of nicer, thicker slippers that don't actually have anything in back of the heels to keep your feet in. My original pair does have a heel-barrier, or whatever it's called. My feet don't slip out of those easily. (So are they still slippers?!?! lol...)

 

So if she ever asks how I like the slippers she bought for me so kindly, despite the fact that I'm not even wearing that pair, would it be okay for me to lie and say "These are great! I love them! They're so comfortable! Thank you!" Even though, once again, they are not the pair that she bought.

 

The intent is what matters. I get to be comfortable, she gets to feel like her thoughtfulness has paid off and made a loved one happy, and I get to know that she has that feeling. Everyone wins. Assuming that she forgets what the pair of slippers she bought looks like.

[SasQ 1,376]

Reality is the ultimate truth.

A lie is a dissonance (or discord) which detaches you from reality.

Small lie detaches you only a little, and huge lie detaches you rather seriously.

When one is detached from reality, one lives in an illusion.

Such illusion could be comfortable to some, but at the end it will always end bad, because when you detach from reality, you start receding from it (that is, from the stream of life and creativity) and you start to suffer. Because suffering is the feedback from the Universe which is meant to turn you back from bushes into the clear path. (Unfortunately many people choose to ignore these signals and stay in a lie, only worsening their situation.)

 

I often hear people saying that they don't want to tell the truth to someone, because they don't want to hurt that person. But they're hurting him/her even more by not telling the truth, because then he/she lacks some important information which could save him from random erring. Truth can hurt only once, but erring could hurt much longer, especially when the lies will accumulate.

 

If you really care for someone, just tell him/her the truth. This would end better than not telling it. Because, you know, this someone could eventually figure out the truth him/herself, and then he/she would be mad at you that you did know but you didn't tell him/her.

 

Just explain him/her your intent, tell him/her why exactly are you telling the truth to him/her.

Edited May 8, 2014 by SasQ

[Guest]

fdfdsa fd d asd adf  23r2r r2

Edited December 22, 2016 by plzremoveaccountfdfd

[Milky Jade 138]

Well, I think that lies are separated into constructive and destructive lies.

 

For instance, someone bumps into you and asks you if you're a virgin.

You have nothing to gain from telling that person, but they coerced you out of information, or misinformation. You can either answer, or not. If you don't answer, it's basically like saying you're a virgin, in most cases anyway.

 

So why should junk information that does no harm be considered immoral? There's a lot of things that can be done with the most trivial of information, so you would be wise to stay on the safe side and not allow anyone into your personal matters that you wouldn't entrust them to.

 

I can go ahead and say this: As a species that relies heavily on information, reliable information is imperative to our survival. It's something along the lines of biological leash: Should a species spread generally more misinformation than genuine information, it will not thrive very well. The fact that we have language in itself means that humans are generally trustworthy. The fact that misinformation propagates about as well as genuine information doesn't make this statement untrue. It's because humans are dumb. Honestly so, but dumb.

 

Anyway, I digress: So what about constructive and destructive lies? A destructive lie would be to give misdirections. A destructive lie would be to tell your uncle that no, there isn't a hive of bloodthirsty wasps in that motorboat's powerhead.

 

Now your child's goldfish dies. I'll leave it to you: You can either tell it the truth, or you can tell it you're gonna flush it back in the ocean so it can wake up from hibernation. Whether or not this is constructive to the growth of a child, I'll also leave to you.

 

A better example is telling your wife she doesn't look like sausage casing in that dress. Putting your values in a hierarchy, then having her shut up and be jolly for one evening is better than ruining the day, coming too late or create a potential menace. The lie is constructive. We will continue to hate each other anyway and men don't really care about other men's wives.

 

Anyway, bottom line, I think honesty is really, very important. I will not attempt to philosophically prove that lies are immoral. I just believe it's not the province of law, which is the important thing to note - but the province of morals, and the morals of lying are strictly contingent upon the lie in question.

[Rainblow H. Ash 5,091]

I tell small lies, what some would call white lies all the time.

 

Does it hurt?

 

Not really. I guess it would be as Milky Jade said, they are constructive lies. They don't do any harm to me or anyone around me.

 

I have told some actual lies before, but they were either told as a joke or back when I was younger and I would lie in order to not get in trouble for acting up and doing something bad.

 

I would never take the position that lying is always wrong. Unfortunately, many people take the position that lying is a great way to build a bubble around themselves, and that's also a position that I dislike, far more than complete honesty.

[SasQ 1,376]

'bout the slippers:

If you fix someone in his supposition that you're fine with what he does, then expect him doing more and more of that. So if it is a lie that you're fine with it, your life will soon become a misery, and little lies won't be enough anymore; bigger and bigger lies would be needed if you still want to keep them in blissful ignorance. But it will all be at the cost of your happiness.

 

I learned from my own experience that such lies are not good at the end of the day.

My mother gave me a birthday gift. It was some crappy useless shit. But I didn't want to hurt her feelings, so I accepted the gift, pretending I'm happy to get it. And guess what: Next birthday, I received more crappy useless shit I asked why. She replied: "Why? Last time you was happy, so I thought you will be even more happy when I give you this." I wasn't. And I realized where it all goes. So I admitted to her that I don't like it, I don't see any use for it, but I appreciate her effort and I'm grateful. She was a little bit upset (though not that much, since I explained her honestly that my feelings about the gift are a separate thing than my feelings about her effort to make me happy, and how much I appreciate that). And next time she asked me what I would like to get for my birthday, and gave me exactly what I wanted. This time everyone was truly happy Honesty always works. But of course it needs some care to not hurt anyone's feelings.

[Nine 707]

I think the moral consensus is that these kinds of lies are equivalent to giving thanks, even if you didn't get exactly what you wanted. It'd be less polite to be honest.

[SasQ 1,376]

 

 

For instance, someone bumps into you and asks you if you're a virgin. You have nothing to gain from telling that person, but they coerced you out of information, or misinformation. You can either answer, or not.

 

You forgot the third option: That you can (HONESTLY!) reply that this is not his/her business, and it's kind of rude to ask such questions.

 

 

 

If you don't answer, it's basically like saying you're a virgin, in most cases anyway

 

Then you can say: "Maybe... or maybe not... you will never know..." :>

[Milky Jade 138]

You forgot the third option: That you can (HONESTLY!) reply that this is not his/her business, and it's kind of rude to ask such questions.

 

 

 

 

Then you can say: "Maybe... or maybe not... you will never know..." :>

 

Well, that's the kind of thing I was having in mind. And I said so: You're being coerced out of information. Withholding an answer is most of the time a very clear statement, or can be taken as a clear statement. Even though you didn't make that statement itself. Magic, right?

[SasQ 1,376]

@@Milky Jade, if one tries to assume anything from your not getting any answer, then he's lying to himself anyway, that is, he is delusional. And I wouldn't care much about what he thinks about me, since it's already flawed in principle. And you know what? Then you can do nothing about it. Everyone can think about you whatever he likes. (Every dog can piss on your shoes.) Should you care? Better not.

[Jeric 46,851]

1. Santa Claus

2. "No, Kriminalrat Färber. I have found nothing."

3. I'm all in

 

 

These are all examples of various types of innocent, or even noble lies. The whole black and while concept of lying of any form being immoral is ridiculous.

Edited May 8, 2014 by Jeric

[Milky Jade 138]

@@Milky Jade, if one tries to assume anything from your not getting any answer, then he's lying to himself anyway, that is, he is delusional. And I wouldn't care much about what he thinks about me, since it's already flawed in principle. And you know what? Then you can do nothing about it. Everyone can think about you whatever he likes. (Every dog can piss on your shoes.) Should you care? Better not.

 

You misunderstand. Not proceeding information creates contextual information. Often this information plays into someone's hands, so that blows.

 

This is the principle of exformation, which I elucidated on in another thread (tulpas?). A shadow is no information in itself. It is the lack of information, in contrast with information, and it becomes cheap information that you have to burn less calories for to process.

 

Pleading the fifth has the general trend of looking not like "It's none of your business" but "disclosing this might jeopardize something I care about". Humans aren't always in control of the information they put forward. This can be manipulated.

 

Obviously everyone can draw their conclusions in any which way they want, and it's still only guesswork. But the implicitness in withholding trivial information is almost always tantamount to specific answer.

[SasQ 1,376]

Sure, I'm aware that sometimes hiding information could make someone imply it.

For example: "Government don't want to show us these top-secret documents. They definitely do something evil."

 

Well, then there are two options:

 

1. Make the situation ambiguous enough that they won't be able to imply anything.

 

2. If you cannot hide the information or be ambiguous enough, then you can tell them the truth as well.

 

Because why should being virgin, or not being virgin, be something embarrassing? It's only when you think of it that way. They wouldn't do you any harm with their knowledge about your virginity if they knew you simply don't care what they think. They can hurt you only when you allow them; only when they know that laughing at you would hurt your feelings.

 

 

 

1. Santa Claus

 

Yeah, what about him? He's doing well, in his house in Lapland. D'you want his address?

Edited May 8, 2014 by SasQ

[Guest90210 3,568]

I would say Santa Clause, Tooth Fairy, Easter Bunny, etc.

 

I loved those stories as a little kid. I always looked forward to Santa giving me gifts on Christmas, the Tooth Fairy giving me absurd amounts of money (my mom used to be shit-faced drunk when she would put the money under my our my brother's pillow - one time she gave my brother (who was 7 at the time) $50 for a tooth!), and so on.

[Ziggy + Angel + Rain 11,302]

There are the "little white lies" that one might tell to protect others.  I don't see any especial harm in those.  For me, personally:

 

Rather than lying outright, I might just not be overly forward / completely honest.  Or I'll purposely allow someone to get the wrong impression about something (without correcting them).  This is only when I'm 1. sparing someone's feelings or 2. something is really none of their business lol.  That being said, I'm a very honest person.  Like, too honest; it's practically a disease.  I will exercise some tact when needed, but I will also just put myself out there in ways I may well regret later.

[SasQ 1,376]

Well, when I was a kid, I knew that this guy with a beard is actually my dad, or one of his friends sometimes, and he knew that I know. But we both pretended that we don't know. I wouldn't call it lying, because we both knew the truth. We just played we don't. For fun In the same way as scientists make assumptions just to see where it will take them and whether something interesting will result from it.