This episode dragged S4 down to the 4th rank after S6 just to show how bad it was I think you was too harsh to Crusader of the Lost Marks, it's already a good episode in term of production value ALONE. Rainbow Falls failed at everything, writting, humor, entertainment values, characters, in short... everything, compare this piece of crap to Crusader of the Lost Mark is just so wrong.

Rainbow Fails is a complete failure in writing in every shape and form. Nothing makes a lick of sense. Act 3 is the worst segment of the show.

[ Remind you of some other episode? That's right, this is the "Crusaders of the Lost Mark" of season four. Goddammit. ]

There's a huge difference between Rainbow Falls and Lost Mark. Lost Mark's plot makes a ton of sense and spends the time to build up to both Diamond Tiara's redemption and climax. Rainbow Falls just dumps a bunch of stuff onto paper with little to no editing. It's the laziest episode in the show. Mark is one of the show's five best episodes. Rainbow Falls isn't anywhere close to Lost Mark's quality whatsoever.

Tragic thing is, this was my first-ever livestreamed episode.

Only eclipsed by Sting's debut at WrestleMania 31 in terms of s***ty first-evers.

I think you was too harsh to Crusader of the Lost Marks, it's already a good episode in term of production value ALONE. Rainbow Falls failed at everything, writting, humor, entertainment values, characters, in short... everything, compare this piece of crap to Crusader of the Lost Mark is just so wrong.

There's a huge difference between Rainbow Falls and Lost Mark. Lost Mark's plot makes a ton of sense and spends the time to build up to both Diamond Tiara's redemption and climax. Rainbow Falls just dumps a bunch of stuff onto paper with little to no editing. It's the laziest episode in the show. Mark is one of the show's five best episodes. Rainbow Falls isn't anywhere close to Lost Mark's quality whatsoever.

The comparison I made between "Crusaders" and "Rainbow Falls" was that it was a shit episode that was impossible to skip because it was essential to its story arc. I mean, when I picked apart that episode, I complained about the pacing of Diamond Tiara's redemption as well as how the climax was bullshit, too, but that's besides my point.

This episode dragged S4 down to the 4th rank after S6 just to show how bad it was

Jesus christ. So that is what I have to look forward to when I finally watch season six? Fuuuuck. Thanks for the warning.

Jesus christ. So that is what I have to look forward to when I finally watch season six? Fuuuuck. Thanks for the warning.

You didnt touch S6 yet!? You dont like the show anymore? ;(

Edited: i think you may like S6, i have a feeling... ;D

S6 is 3rd rank season despite it didnt have a lot of amazing episode, S4 could be the 3rd if it wasnt dragged down by 4 worst episode (Daring Dont, RF, Somepony, amd Trade Ya). You didnt touch S6 yet!? You dont like the show anymore? ;(

I mean, I still do, but I just have less time that I can and/or want to invest in the show, so I instead spend it watching whatever episodes I'm going to review for the next week or two. I'll be catching up on season six very soon, though. Pray for me, man.

The comparison I made between "Crusaders" and "Rainbow Falls" was that it was a shit episode that was impossible to skip because it was essential to its story arc.

The only part of your comparison that makes sense is that it's essential to the plot. Aside from that, neither RF nor Lost Mark are in any way, shape, or form comparable. Rainbow Falls is an objectively horrible episode with no redeeming value. Lost Mark is a good episode with excellent storytelling; everything that connects to each other makes sense; and the CMCs and Diamond Tiara came out of it for the better.

The only part of your comparison that makes sene is that it's essential to the plot. Aside from that, neither RF nor Lost Mark are in any way, shape, or form comparable. Rainbow Falls is an objectively horrible episode with no redeeming value. Lost Mark is a good episode with excellent storytelling, and everything that connects to each other makes sense.

Well, when I watched it, I didn't see a good episode with excellent storytelling. I saw a messy episode with horrid pacing that had four separate plots running at once, none of the Crusader's cutie marks were foreshadowed, Diamond Tiara's redemption was sidelined for that sloppy climax, not like her redemption was anything new from this series...how many characters have they redeemed since Equestria Girls?...a hundred million songs to further fuck up the pacing...it was basically everything people complained about with "Magical Mystery Cure". So maybe it doesn't make sense to you because you like it, but considering I've knocked "Crusaders of the Lost Mark" constantly for the past two years, for reasons I will always defend, the comparison makes perfect sense. I hate "Rainbow Falls", and I hate "Crusaders of the Lost Mark", and they're both episodes that I can't skip because they're part of essential arcs.

none of the Crusader's cutie marks were foreshadowed

In the episode, it absolutely was foreshadowed. The Cutie Mark Crusaders had a series-long focus of wondering when they were going to get their Mark, get disappointed when they don't get it, and have a sense of obliviousness to what they do. Here, after they see Diamond at her lowest point, they put their quest aside in favor of trying to help her, calling back to AMW, where they do the exact same thing midway. It was after they helped DT did they finally realize that they didn't need to put forth so much energy on themselves. It made them feel good to help others find out their true selves.

Think about this for a sec. Diamond Tiara was responsible for Apple Bloom, SB, and Scoots to join and become the CMCs in the first place. By helping Diamond Tiara and getting their Marks, it puts the entire arc in full circle.

Diamond Tiara's redemption was sidelined for that sloppy climax

It wasn't sidelined at all. The CMCs were worried about her well-being and wanted to see if she was okay knowing how much she hurt them. The fact they stated it and outright did it shows a huge amount of maturity and growth over the seasons. Diamond Tiara didn't want that help, but was still impressed by how dedicated the CMCs were. At the same time, she was caught in between of impressing her parents, especially her abusive mother, because she's held to an extremely high family standard.

Secondly, lots of kids become bullies because of problems back home, including neglect, physical, and psychological abuse. Spoiled verbally abused her own daughter out in the open and unknowingly in front of the CMCs. So for her to stand up to her own mother, defend the CMCs, and use her ability to lead to help repair the playground marks an epiphany for her.

not like her redemption was anything new from this series

How many =/= how well. The big problem with the show isn't how many they redeem, but how well they redeem. Diamond Tiara is one of the few to redeem well.

a hundred million songs to further fuck up the pacing

There's a major difference in the pacing. In LM, the pacing was fast, but it doesn't feel fast. Rather than rush their content through, they spend great deal of time to get through each segment. The beginning, middle, climax, and end occur at the appropriate times, and the story is complete. It's extremely organized.

it was basically everything people complained about with "Magical Mystery Cure".

MMC's pacing is way worse than LM. MMC has twice as much content to get through. So much so that the climax occurs in the beginning of Act 2. Secondly, there's another big flaw here that Lost Mark doesn't have: the treatment of Mark acquisitions as preordained circumstances. Each of their lives are completely dependent on their Marks. That never happened prior to MMC and was a complete contradiction to the lore of Cutie Marks.

So maybe it doesn't make sense to you because you like it

I don't have to like it to understand it's one of the best episodes. Even if I hated it, I would still give it a high mark, no pun intended.

In the episode, it absolutely was foreshadowed.

Yes. That's the problem.

The Cutie Mark Crusaders had a series-long focus of wondering when they were going to get their Mark, get disappointed when they don't get it, and have a sense of obliviousness to what they do.

Yes. That's the problem.

Look, throughout the series, they've alluded to the Cutie Mark Crusaders each getting their own individual cutie marks, Sweetie Belle as a singer, Scootaloo as a daredevil.....where did that buildup go? Nowhere. Their talents didn't remotely involve any of that. So why was that a running gag in the series? Why continue to show them being oblivious to the fact that they're good at these activities if that wasn't part of their ultimate goal? I'll tell you why, because it doesn't push the "destiny" agenda that they started shoving down our throat in later seasons. It wouldn't have been easy enough to have just one member of the Cutie Mark Crusaders to get their cutie mark and cause conflict in the dynamic for stronger character development. Instead, the three of them get their arc tied up in a nice, beautiful little bow. But hey, Sweetie Belle has a music note on her cutie mark........which is irrelevant to how she earned it, so that doesn't even make sense in and of itself.

they put their quest aside

They drop a plotpoint...

in favor of trying to help her,

...in favor of a different plotpoint.

calling back to AMW, where they do the exact same thing midway.

Right, the Cutie Mark Crusaders did this once before, whereas the other pokes at them having individual and diverging talents was hinted at several times before. With the Alicorn Twilight concept, there was always a hint from the beginning that Twilight was to become something special. She was the student of this world's God, and is such because said God chose her. Why would an all powerful being choose anyone to be their student? Because they're going to mold that pupil into something bigger than themselves. So we knew Twilight was going somewhere from the moment we put two-and-two together during "The Cutie Mark Chronicles". That was two seasons before "Magical Mystery Cure". "Appleloosa's Most Wanted" was twelve episodes before "Crusaders of the Lost Mark". You build up an arc this big over long periods of time, not a few episodes. Were there other times that the CMC helped other people discover their destiny before Appleloosa's Most Wanted? Because most CMC episodes I remember were them worrying about themselves.

Think about this for a sec. Diamond Tiara was responsible for Apple Bloom, SB, and Scoots to join and become the CMCs in the first place. By helping Diamond Tiara and getting their Marks, it puts the entire arc in full circle.

Sure, I'll buy that, but the concept doesn't justify the end result, which is one of the clumsiest episodes I've ever watched.

It wasn't sidelined at all.

It's immediately sidelined once the CMC get their cutie marks. There's barely a moment to bask in the glory of the end of Diamond Tiara's irritating existence when they drop a bullshit "climax" in your lap....two minutes before the episode is over.

The CMCs were worried about her well-being and wanted to see if she was okay knowing how much she hurt them. The fact they stated it and outright did it shows a huge amount of maturity and growth over the seasons. Diamond Tiara didn't want that help, but was still impressed by how dedicated the CMCs were. At the same time, she was caught in between of impressing her parents, especially her abusive mother, because she's held to an extremely high family standard.

Thanks for reminding me of what happens in the episode...?

Secondly, lots of kids become bullies because of problems back home, including neglect, physical, and psychological abuse. Spoiled verbally abused her own daughter out in the open and unknowingly in front of the CMCs. So for her to stand up to her own mother, defend the CMCs, and use her ability to lead to help repair the playground marks an epiphany for her.

...Okay...didn't argue these.

How many =/= how well.

How many affects the impact it has on you when they finally get to one that's done well. Diamond Tiara's redemption was standard. By the books. Expected of basic storytelling. At best, it was a better use of the "One Bad Apple" plotline. Anything that could've been done to make the redemption go above and beyond is foiled because they tried sticking two other plots throughout it. Which is why I've said in my original review of this episode and my rewrite of the review in my editorials that "Crusaders of the Lost Mark" should have been two or three different episodes spread out across season four and five, and not one.

In LM, the pacing was fast, but it doesn't feel fast.

Ooooooooooooh yes it fucking does. Even when I first watched the episode, which is back when I watched MLP more casually than I do now, and I thought the episode was just "okay" rather than utter shit, I noticed how fast the pace was. They were running through story like a relay race, and it made the big moment of the CMC getting their cutie marks feel very out of left field. Even then.

Rather than rush their content through, they spend great deal of time to get through each segment.

Not really. Most of the story is told through pop songs, and in this show, where compositional quality is either hit or miss, it's very easy for me to tune out during the songs. This unfortunately makes such fast pace even faster.

The beginning, middle, climax, and end occur at the appropriate times,

You call a climax at the tail end of the third act an appropriate time? Or did this episode have two climaxes? Both are equally poor writing qualities. 

MMC's pacing is way worse than LM. MMC has twice as much content to get through.

The amount of content is about the same. MMC and Crusaders are extremely similar in structure, and watching both episodes back to back makes it very evident.

Secondly, there's another big flaw here that Lost Mark doesn't have: the treatment of Mark acquisitions as preordained circumstances. Each of their lives are completely dependent on their Marks. That never happened prior to MMC and was a complete contradiction to the lore of Cutie Marks.

You seem to forget that the characters memories were also wiped, their "true selves" had been altered, meaning they likely have faux memories of obtaining their cutie marks. It's sugarcoated throughout the series, but Cutie Marks have been shown to in one way or another dictate a pony's life. Therefore, they would want to live out the lives their cutie marks are telling them to live, because they're running off a false instinct. 

I don't have to like it to understand it's one of the best episodes. Even if I hated it, I would still give it a high mark

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..............."I hate A Fever You Can't Sweat Out. Its lyrically cluttered, every line is a mouthful, the chord progressions are not engaging, there's no melodic structure, it doesn't pace itself from track to track, the topics are pretentious and confused, and there's nothing to take away from listening to it. It is the greatest album on the Earth and everyone should be envious of its ultimate glory. All musicians should aspire to create an album like this."

I don't have to like it to understand it's one of the best episodes. Even if I hated it, I would still give it a high mark, no pun intended.

That doesnt make any sense. How could you hate the episode and still give it a high score? I mean, a episode that you HATED (Hate is a stronger word than Dislike), it must have a lot of bad qualities that you cannot torelate or it insulted you at personal level, and somehow you can still give a rating that you think that episode DESERVED??? Mixed feeling is not hate. Dislike is not hate, neutral is not hate, Hate means that episode doesnt DESERVE any credits from you. 

Look, throughout the series, they've alluded to the Cutie Mark Crusaders each getting their own individual cutie marks, Sweetie Belle as a singer, Scootaloo as a daredevil.....where did that buildup go?

That buildup ended following The Show Stoppers, an objectively worse episode than Lost Mark. TSS killed all momentum for the original search before it even started. If their Mark reveal turned out to be what TSS suggested, then it would've been completely predictable, anticlimactic, and a complete slap to the face of what they learned up to this point.

Look at the two episodes prior to LM: AMW and Bloom & Bloom. Bloom & Gloom put their quest for cutie marks in perspective. Why? Because Apple Bloom started to wonder about what type she'll get and how it'll impact her life in the future. It's the first time any CMC legitimately feared what Mark they'll get. The ending developed her and the others. AMW hinted this change, too, by trying to help Troubleshoes instead of focusing on themselves.

And on an unrelated note, what were traditionally the CMCs' best episodes prior to LM? Ones that don't emphasize their search.

The big problem with their quest is that they didn't take it with a lot of care. They were just trying to find their cutie mark, and if it failed, they'd try something else. Their quest was very selfish; until they stopped being oblivious and focused more on others, they weren't close to getting them. Season five marked a turn in their development.

They drop a plotpoint...

...in favor of a different plotpoint.

You don't understand the point of the plot here. They joined Pipsqueak's campaign partially because they wanted to get their own Cutie Mark (and defeat DT). They weren't going to get it here because of it. Them seeing Diamond Tiara at her lowest point right in front of them marked an evolution for them. Rather than focusing on themselves, they focused on others around them. At the end, they realized how they didn't have to focus on themselves. Helping others figure out who they truly are not only made them feel legitimately good, but also marked a sense of strength together. Working well as a team to help others is their biggest strength. Season five, and especially LM, fixed TSS's fatal flaw.

Instead, the three of them get their arc tied up in a nice, beautiful little bow.

Lost Mark shows that it makes more sense for the CMCs to get their Marks collectively rather than individually. Diamond Tiara brought the team together. It makes sense for them to get their Cutie Marks together, too.

How many affects the impact it has on you when they finally get to one that's done well.

Remember the old storytelling M.O.: It's not always about the destination, but the journey. You know Diamond Tiara may be redeemed, but how she'll be redeemed is what determines the quality. The HOW is why her redemption works for the reasons already explained. You can have a lot of really poor reformations (and this show has a lot of them), but this show also has some good ones. DT's is one of them.

At best, it was a better use of the "One Bad Apple" plotline.

One Bad Apple and Lost Mark are completely different stories.

• In OBA, DT and Silver Spoon manipulate someone to be a bully, while Lost Mark puts focus on an already established bully who wants to become a better pony.
• The CMCs weren't trying to redeem Babs, but were trying to defend themselves.
• OBA paints the CMCs (the victims of bullying) as bullies themselves for deciding to fight back. In Lost Mark, the CMCs helped someone change for the better while acknowledging their past.

You're comparing apples to oranges here.

Not really.

Yes, they were. Each segment dedicated several minutes into developing the story, even with the songs. The beginning, middle, and end were very, very clear. It wasn't simply a story, cut it off, rush through, and cut off. Lost Mark was very thorough in not only the way they told the story, but how much they tell, as well. Each segment was at the appropriate length, and Lost Mark actually slowed down at one point in the middle to let the audience process what happened. A fast episode =/= a rushed episode. Lost Mark proves that.

You call a climax at the tail end of the third act an appropriate time?

The amount of content is about the same.

No, they're not. Magical Mystery Cure, even in its final cut, has twice as much material to go through. They had to rush through the first half (which included a rushed flashback) so Twilight can become a princess AND have her coronation. Lost Mark is much simpler and better organized than MMC.

You seem to forget that the characters memories were also wiped, their "true selves" had been altered, meaning they likely have faux memories of obtaining their cutie marks.

Doesn't change the point. Even in their altered memories, the ReMane Five state that their cutie mark was legitimately telling them what to do even though they were clearly inept in their jobs. They were controlled by their cutie marks when the show didn't do that prior.

How could you hate the episode and still give it a high score?

It's very possible. For a personal example, for a good while, I hated Flight to the Finish, but gradually improved its mark. Why? Because I eventually realized it was a good episode. A rewatch with fresher eyes completely changed my outlook on it. Vice-versa, I loved Putting Your Hoof Down, but it's a terrible episode.

I get the feeling this is the first time you've ever read me knocking "Crusaders of the Lost Mark". It's a running gag in my blog to bring it up, more so on the earlier CMC episodes than now. "This is the 'Crusaders of the Lost Mark' of season four" was one of those jabs that you can find in a lot of reviews from last year. This debate was more appropriate on my original review of the episode that I wrote two years ago, or better yet the rewrite I put up in my Editorials back in August since its more organized, that way it retains to the topic of the blog post. Right now, it just looks like an overblown rant over an in-joke. However, we're too deep into it to diverge now, so I'll keep going for the debate's sake.
 

That buildup ended following The Show Stoppers,

They stopped obsessively focusing on the fact that they possessed these talents there, yes. You should do that in a story so it doesn't get repetitive over five seasons. No future episode contradicted the fact that they were going to get these cutie marks, however, until "Crusaders of the Lost Fuck-Up".
 

an objectively worse episode than Lost Mark.

That's irrelevant.
 

If their Mark reveal turned out to be what TSS suggested, then it would've been completely predictable, anticlimactic, and a complete slap to the face of what they learned up to this point.

Bullshit. It would've added more depth to their dynamic. With one crusader getting her cutie mark while the others haven't, or with each of them getting individual cutie marks, there's plenty of room to write stories centered around the concept of childhood friends growing older and drifting apart. With the way it ended (and granted I still haven't watched the sixth season), there's no shift in the dynamic at all because the cutie marks they have now practically dictate that the three of them will be friends forever. Sunshine and rainbows, no harsh reality, which is what I was coming to expect given the stories involving the CMC, even after "The Show Stoppers", up until now.
  

You don't understand the point of the plot here. They joined Pipsqueak's campaign partially because they wanted to get their own Cutie Mark (and defeat DT). They weren't going to get it here because of it. Them seeing Diamond Tiara at her lowest point right in front of them marked an evolution for them. Rather than focusing on themselves, they focused on others around them. At the end, they realized how they didn't have to focus on themselves. Helping others figure out who they truly are not only made them feel legitimately good, but also marked a sense of strength together. Working well as a team to help others is their biggest strength. Season five, and especially LM, fixed TSS's fatal flaw.

Which doesn't fit in 22 minutes. It should've been two episodes, like I said. Whether that be a two-parter or two separate episodes, it's all very rushed in the episode as it stands. That alone makes it seem like they're writing plot points as they go rather than it being a streamlined story.
 

Lost Mark shows that it makes more sense for the CMCs to get their Marks collectively rather than individually. Diamond Tiara brought the team together. It makes sense for them to get their Cutie Marks together, too.

Again, sunshine and rainbows. This show has shown its ability to write deeper and smarter concepts in regards to friendship, but seasons four, five, and I'd imagine six try to thin it out as less of an emotion and more of a cult.
 

Remember the old storytelling M.O.: It's not always about the destination, but the journey. You know Diamond Tiara may be redeemed, but how she'll be redeemed is what determines the quality. The HOW is why her redemption works for the reasons already explained. You can have a lot of really poor reformations (and this show has a lot of them), but this show also has some good ones. DT's is one of them.

That's fine. A good show with good writing knows how to write that story once and not keep beating the concept until they get it right.
 

One Bad Apple and Lost Mark are completely different stories.

I meant it's a better use of the "bully reformed" concept, and a better use of looking at what makes a bully a bully. I didn't compare them in terms of every second of each episode like you're suggesting I'm trying to do, even with the above jab. I'm talking about a single aspect.
 

Each segment dedicated several minutes into developing the story, even with the songs. The beginning, middle, and end were very, very clear.

Really? Because both times I watched the episode I had trouble keeping up with its pacing. And I the second time is the time when I took its rating down from a 6 to a 1...so...
 

A fast episode =/= a rushed episode. Lost Mark proves that.

Not for me. A fast episode almost always feels rushed because the viewer is expected to keep up with it, which is easier on an episode that takes its time with the story than one that's trying to bullet to the finish line. I still hate "Crusaders of the Lost Mark", so maybe if you could point to another single episode that's fast-paced but somehow not rushed, I'll agree with you.
 

Eeyup

Most climaxes happen at the end of the second act or at the beginning of the third act, so that there's time for a falling action and/or a resolution. Not in the last three minutes of the episode.
 

No, they're not. Magical Mystery Cure, even in its final cut, has twice as much material to go through. They had to rush through the first half (which included a rushed flashback) so Twilight can become a princess AND have her coronation. Lost Mark is much simpler and better organized than MMC.

I don't think the pacing in any way is particularly well done in "Magical Mystery Cure". Rather, it's more of a problem with the overall episode. It should've definitely been two episodes. I wonder what other episode I share this opinion with......................
 

Doesn't change the point. Even in their altered memories, the ReMane Five state that their cutie mark was legitimately telling them what to do even though they were clearly inept in their jobs. They were controlled by their cutie marks when the show didn't do that prior.

You took "What My Cutie Mark Is Telling Me" way too literally. The Cutie Marks weren't controlling them like some kind of Puppetmaster. The fact that they have faux memories of obtaining the cutie marks means that they remember doing the skill that they did to acquire them in the first place. So they're attempting to do that same skill set in the present day, and they can't because in "reality" they have never practiced the skill. Hence, our main characters are confused. They remember getting the cutie marks yet they can't perform their tasks. Hence, it's what they're cutie marks are telling them.
 

It's very possible. For a personal example, for a good while, I hated Flight to the Finish, but gradually improved its mark. Why? Because I eventually realized it was a good episode. A rewatch with fresher eyes completely changed my outlook on it.

That's not hating something and simultaneously giving it a high score. You're changing your opinion over time. That's completely different than "even if I hated it, I would still give it a high mark". Refer to my analogy with A Fever You Can't Sweat Out for how ridiculous that sentiment really is.

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Sorry if this reply seems a little quip-y, I'll admit I'm currently pressed for time as I type this out. Odds are I'll have to clarify a few things from this post as the debate continues.

The only good thing about this episode were..

THE MUFFINS