Jump to content
Banner by ~ Wizard
  • entries
    34
  • comments
    178
  • views
    11,483

More on Superdeterminism


Silly Druid

1,270 views

The goal of this entry is to explain my thoughts about superdeterminism in a more detailed way.

We should start with the double slit experiment: there is a source of particles, two slits, and a screen. The particles can go through either of the slits, and even if we emit a single particle at a time, after many particles there is an interference pattern at the screen, showing that the particle seems to go through both slits at the same time. But if we make a measurement to determine which slit the particle used, it always uses only one of them and there is no interference pattern. So what actually happens here?

The most obvious explanation would be a simple hidden variables theory, stating that the particle already carries all information needed to determine the results of all possible measurements. So if we don't measure it, it goes through both slits, but if we measure it, it already "knows" which slit it should use. But this explanation is wrong. The Bell Inequality experiments prove it. It's simply not possible.

Another explanation is the standard quantum mechanics (Copenhagen interpretation). As far as I understand it, it states that if we don't measure it, it's truly undefined which slit the particle (or rather its wave function) uses. It moves through both slits with the probability of 50% each, and it interferes with itself. But when we try to determine which slit was used, the wave function "collapses", so it becomes 0% in one slit and 100% in the other. The problem with this interpretation is that the "collapse" doesn't make much sense as a physical process, because it happens at the same time in all the space occupied by the wave function: if we detect the particle in one slit, the part of the wave function in the other slit instantly becomes 0. This is Einstein's "spooky action at a distance". And we don't even know what "instantly" means, because in special relativity the concept of "at the same time" depends on the frame of reference we use.

So how does superdeterminism fix these problems? By assuming that the following two things are correlated: the path of the particle (let's call it A), and the way we measure it (B).

Before watching Sabine Hossenfelder's video, I didn't believe in superdeterminism. Not because the free will nonsense, but because in the sources I've seen it was presented as if the correlation meant there is a common cause (C), that causes both A and B. This makes no sense, because there is no way a physical process would determine both the path of the particle, and our decision how to measure it.

But now I realized there are other options as well. A correlation can also mean that A causes B, or B causes A.

"A causes B" makes no sense either, because again there is no way a physical process would make the path of the particle cause our decision how to measure it.

But "B causes A" is an interesting possibility. If the way we measure a particle affects its path, then we can explain the "problem of measurement" without the need of "wave function collapse". Instead of collapsing, it's already created in a way that depends on what we measure (or don't measure). So if we don't detect which slit the particle uses, the wave function goes through both slits and interferes with itself, and if we do detect it, it goes through one slit. There is no collapse, and it's also consistent with the Bell Inequality results.

But the measurement is made after we emitted the particle and it has "chosen" its path. Which means backwards causality: the effect (particle choosing its path) happens before the cause (the measurement). The way I see it is when we try to do something with a particle (which means trying to emit it, absorb it, measure it etc.), it creates a "vertex" on the grid of all possible particle interactions, and these vertices have a probability to be connected with each other by "particle paths". I think it's something similar to the "transactional interpretation" of quantum mechanics.

[EDIT] An important thing is why this backwards causality doesn't cause time paradoxes. It's because it affects only the wave function, which is immeasurable. We can't actually see what happens with the wave function before we measure it. So you can argue that it simply doesn't exist at all. But it should exist, because it's what the Schrödinger equation describes, in other words it's what makes the entire quantum mechanics work. Without it (or some equivalent of it) we don't understand what happens at all. So my understanding of superdeterminism implies backwards causality, but in a way that doesn't allow you to actually send any information back in time.

As for the tachyons, for those who think they are forbidden in special relativity, it's not true. If we assume a particle has an imaginary mass, it must move faster than light. But now I'm not so sure they are what really happens here, maybe it's something different, like wormholes. (Yes, there is a conjecture, called "ER = EPR", which states that quantum entanglement creates a wormhole between the particles.) What I mean here is that if we successfully combine two theories, it usually predicts something new. For example, when Dirac combined quantum mechanics and special relativity, it predicted the existence of anti-matter, which was experimentally confirmed later. So if we combine superdeterministic quantum mechanics with general relativity, who knows what we will find?

(Sorry if this entry is too long and messy for you, you can ask questions in the comments so hopefully I can explain some things better.)

Edited by PawelS

  • Brohoof 2

12 Comments


Recommended Comments

Quote

But if we make a measurement to determine which slit the particle used, it always uses only one of them and there is no interference pattern.

Anyone actually have proof of this? I know it is true, but it would be cool to see it! It is the opposite of how the world actually works, so it would be cool to see.

I can explain: Imagine there was an explanation that said, gravity always goes downwards, and you see that in every day life. Then, there is a lot of talk about it being a confusion because gravity is simply "weird", that if you use a mirror, everything is mirrored but gravity still goes downwards and not upwards. However, tilting the mirror 90 degrees, and gravity is no longer downwards. However, no one never proves this by showing it. They just assume that is the case because someone back in the day tested it.

If you are the measurement, wouldn't the interference pattern disappear? What does measurement mean in this case? I have heard explanations about using a machine that, when simply removing the plug from the electric wall socket, will get the interference pattern back. I take it as electricity must exist for the experiment to count as an experiment.

Quote

The Bell Inequality experiments prove it. It's simply not possible.

By using clever math to discard rules for probabilities. This is where I don't even follow. That's why I don't have a Nobel Prize.

 

Quote

goes through both slits and interferes with itself

What if it isn't the particle that interfere with itself, but the measurement changing the state of the way the particle takes? This is again tied to my top question. There is no proof of the measurement ever changing where the particle ends up behind the slit. There are two slits, and it assumes that one particle somehow made it through both slits, 50% in one, and 50% in the other, and 0% in between the slits, or outside the "play-area". It is ridiculous vague what the double slit experiment actually proves, other than creating an interference pattern when many particles have been accumulated on the wall behind it.

Quote

The way I see it is when we try to do something with a particle (which means trying to emit it, absorb it, measure it etc.), it creates a "vertex" on the grid of all possible particle interactions

Interacting with a particle causes it to reveal something that wasn't there before, and if it was connected with another particle, its up and down spin will be opposite for that other particle at that same moment in time, no matter how far away both particles are, breaking the light speed ..... thing, and makes Einstein cry.

Time and relativity, and gravity, are all Einstein's turf. That means "backwards causality" would belong to General Relativity camp and not Quantum Mechanics. This is so much fun :derp:

  • Brohoof 1
Link to comment

I edited the entry by adding a very important paragraph about things I forgot earlier, see the part that starts with [EDIT].

 

On 2022-03-02 at 1:12 AM, Splashee said:

Anyone actually have proof of this? I know it is true, but it would be cool to see it! It is the opposite of how the world actually works, so it would be cool to see.

The double slit experiment was done many times in real life, this image (taken from Wikipedia) is an example how the results look.

Single_slit_and_double_slit2.jpg

 

On 2022-03-02 at 1:12 AM, Splashee said:

If you are the measurement, wouldn't the interference pattern disappear? What does measurement mean in this case? I have heard explanations about using a machine that, when simply removing the plug from the electric wall socket, will get the interference pattern back. I take it as electricity must exist for the experiment to count as an experiment.

What does a measurement mean is a very good question. Basically, in quantum mechanics, it's impossible to achieve some information about a particle without affecting it in some way. So any attempt of detection which slit the particle uses must involve some interaction with said particle, although in some cases this interaction is indirect: if we try to detect it in one slit and we find out that it isn't there, it's enough to affect the wave function because we know it must go through the other slit.

The difference between the standard interpretation and superdeterminism is that in the standard interpretation a measurement only affects the wave function forward in time, so before the measurement it looks like it goes through both slits, and when we measure it in one of the slits, it suddenly changes everywhere to a form that goes through one slit. In superdeterminism it also affects the wave function back in time, so if we measure it in one of the slits, it goes through one slit from the start.

 

On 2022-03-02 at 1:12 AM, Splashee said:

By using clever math to discard rules for probabilities. This is where I don't even follow. That's why I don't have a Nobel Prize.

TBH I don't know how the Bell Inequality works either. I just take it for granted that it proves what it proves. :-P

 

On 2022-03-02 at 1:12 AM, Splashee said:

What if it isn't the particle that interfere with itself, but the measurement changing the state of the way the particle takes? This is again tied to my top question. There is no proof of the measurement ever changing where the particle ends up behind the slit. There are two slits, and it assumes that one particle somehow made it through both slits, 50% in one, and 50% in the other, and 0% in between the slits, or outside the "play-area". It is ridiculous vague what the double slit experiment actually proves, other than creating an interference pattern when many particles have been accumulated on the wall behind it.

As far as I know, this kind of interference pattern can only appear because a particle (or, more precisely, its wave function) interferes with itself. Maybe there is another possible explanation, but I haven't heard of any.

 

One more thing: The reason I mentioned tachyons in the first place is because I heard of the idea (the actual research paper is here if you're brave enough to read it; I didn't do it), stating that if we allow "superluminal observers" (i.e. frames of reference that move faster than light relative to each other) in special relativity, the resulting theory recreates the basic laws of quantum mechanics. Speculating about such ideas (without the need to actually do the math) is fun indeed :mlp_pinkie:

Edited by PawelS
  • Brohoof 1
Link to comment
14 hours ago, PawelS said:

The double slit experiment was done many times in real life, this image (taken from Wikipedia) is an example how the results look.

Single_slit_and_double_slit2.jpg

From Wikipedia about this image: "in top image, one slit is closed"

Well, that is not the same as measuring the quantum particle to change the result... This is a physical "I close the door to make the interference go away" visual demonstration. It is like I close one of my eye, and I lose the depth of my vision.

What I am looking for is proof of this part (which is starting to be more and more like a hoax the longer I wait for proof):

(Video ready, jumped to the time where he actually makes the fun little joke about unplugging the detector in secret. This is different from covering up one of the two slits, and this is where Quantum Mechanics gets interesting, only there is no proof of this except for people like him saying it actually happens, so do we believe him or do we ask for better proof than this punch line of his to end his seminar?)

 

Just found another YouTuber doing the same thing, explaining this interesting attribute that no one ever prove (I am still not interested in shining a light on the wall, that has been done already. Show me the weird case!):

(Video starts where it is interesting)

 

@Brony Number 42, @PawelS If you have heard anything related to this that is actual visual proof rather than cheap YouTuber crap, feel free to tell me about it :wacko:

 

Also, 50% through one slit, and 50% through the other. How about 50% hitting the wall between the slits? Meh.

  • Brohoof 1
Link to comment

Also, sending a photon and adjusting the experiment while the photon is mid flight?????

Isn't light the fastest information? Send a photon, then, tell the experiment to change (using something faster than light obviously since ->), before the photon reaches the experiment. And now, suddenly "future events were changing the present".

 

And we know how fast light travels, by taking the return trip of a reflected photon, and simply divide it by 2. That is averaging how the world works as one way trip might be instant, while the return might be double the light speed constant. Meh.

  • Brohoof 1
Link to comment

@Splashee

Quote

Also, sending a photon and adjusting the experiment while the photon is mid flight?????

Isn't light the fastest information? Send a photon, then, tell the experiment to change (using something faster than light obviously since ->), before the photon reaches the experiment. And now, suddenly "future events were changing the present".

You don't actually need to send any information. I'll explain it using the most popular names in this kind of examples, Alice and Bob.

So Alice sends a photon, and then, while the photon is in mid flight, Bob, who controls the detectors, adjusts the experiment randomly. And that adjustment seems to affect the entire trajectory of the photon, from the moment when Alice sent it.

Of course what comes earlier or later is relative, but let's say that Alice and Bob are at rest in relation to each other, so they have a common frame of reference.

(I haven't seen the videos you posted yet, I'm going to do it tomorrow and give you more answers.)

  • Brohoof 1
Link to comment
11 hours ago, PawelS said:

So Alice sends a photon, and then, while the photon is in mid flight, Bob, who controls the detectors, adjusts the experiment randomly. And that adjustment seems to affect the entire trajectory of the photon, from the moment when Alice sent it.

I am just being a little picky here. I am sure there might be a way to do this. But just think about it:

  1. Alice presses a button to tell Bob to adjust the experiment. Why a button? Because it is faster than human speech. Well, why use Bob at all when the button can do the experiment? Bob is slower than the button.
  2. Bob now adjusts the experiment, but he must do it before the photon reaches the target (target is the proof of change with or without the adjustment). This window is in fact very very small!
  3. There must be clear indications that the photon was mid-flight while the experiment changed, the experiment actually changed, and the target was different from before the experiment.

So what is the problem here? The button of course.
The signal that the button sends, will be sent at least the same time as the photon leaves the source (is created from two electrons maybe?), and the signal needs to change the experiment before the photon hits its destination. Both the photon and the signal moves at the speed of light.

 

Let's adjust it a little. Let's say Alice presses the button ahead of time, just so that the signal will reach perfectly as the photon is mid-flight. Now, you have told the photon the experiment will change, giving it a chance to act differently (the experiment is void).

 

How about making sure the experiment is closer to Alice than the photon's final destination? That way, the photon will still be in flight when the experiment is made? This can work, however, light is traveling sooo fast, we are talking about huge distances between start and end point for the photon. Again, this is where Relativity and Quantum mechanics kinda meet, and they haven't agreed with each other. Large distances is where relativity works, and very tiny small things is where Quantum Mechanics is.

 

The speed of light is still relative, even if it is the fastest speed. Measuring something like a photon, which is moving at the speed of light, is ridiculously difficult. Measuring two things moving at the speed of light, and now you have all kinds of weird relativity stuff going on. No wonder this experiment has such odd behavior. I am sure I am missing a point, and the experiment is completely valid. Just saying, we are talking about information sharing, and Quantum Mechanics do seem to share information in a different way from classical physics.

  • Brohoof 1
Link to comment

@Splashee What I meant is that they plan the experiment beforehand (which includes agreeing on the time when Alice is going to send the photon), so Bob knows when to do the random adjustment without the need to get any signal from Alice.

Edited by PawelS
  • Brohoof 1
Link to comment
On 2022-03-11 at 1:41 AM, PawelS said:

What I meant is that they plan the experiment beforehand (which includes agreeing on the time when Alice is going to send the photon), so Bob knows when to do the random adjustment without the need to get any signal from Alice.

I know. Planning ahead of time is kinda how the universe works, as time is moving in one direction, changes are being made after they have been decided on... (this is from your previous blog entry):

Quote

It states that the path of the particle depends on what you measure. But what she doesn't say in the video is that the measurement takes place after the particle "chooses" its path. Which means we have causality that works backwards in time.

The measurement begins when Alice and Bob have agreed on the experiment ahead of time, not when the measurement happens. The experiment is very loosely defined here. If the world works in a way that particles can change their behavior instantly knowing a change was made, then that particle would already know the instant Alice and Bob agreed that the measurement would take place at a later time. I don't see a backwards-in-time causality here.

Fooling the particle has proven to not work, as it magically knows the result for every action truthfully expected of it.

  • Brohoof 1
Link to comment
On 2022-03-12 at 5:24 PM, Splashee said:

I know. Planning ahead of time is kinda how the universe works, as time is moving in one direction, changes are being made after they have been decided on... (this is from your previous blog entry):

The measurement begins when Alice and Bob have agreed on the experiment ahead of time, not when the measurement happens. The experiment is very loosely defined here. If the world works in a way that particles can change their behavior instantly knowing a change was made, then that particle would already know the instant Alice and Bob agreed that the measurement would take place at a later time. I don't see a backwards-in-time causality here.

Fooling the particle has proven to not work, as it magically knows the result for every action truthfully expected of it.

But how an agreement between two people could affect the path of a particle? This doesn't make any sense, it's like a big conspiracy theory, where an all-powerful being knows everything about all planned experiments and adjusts particle paths accordingly. This version of superdeterminism just doesn't work for me, that's why I prefer the backwards causality version.

Another problem with this approach is that they only determine when Bob adjusts the experiment, but not how. He can do it randomly, which means that the decision is truly made after the emission of the photon. Of course this brings up the discussion what "randomly" means, and if true randomness exists or not. Theoretically a coin flip isn't random, but for all practical purposes we can treat it as random. And the idea that the photon somehow "knows" the result of a future coin flip doesn't make any sense to me either, it's that big conspiracy theory again.

So for me, what can truly affect the path of the particle is the measurement itself, which happens after the particle is emitted, hence the backwards causality.
 

Some more answers for you (better late than never):

About doing the double slit experiment in practice: It's true that the picture I posted is just the normal intensity laser light. I don't think you can truly "see" the low intensity version, where the photons are emitted one at a time, and you can use detectors to prevent the interference from happening. To do it, you need to measure the place on the screen where the photons hit, and after many photons you can graph the results to see the interference pattern (or lack thereof). For what I know, it's not just a thought experiment, and it definitely has been done in real life, in many variations. I don't know any YouTube video showing that someone actually does it, perhaps you can find it if you look for it (I didn't).

About hitting the wall between slits: If I understand this correctly, for the purposes of this experiment we just ignore the particles that hit the wall, only those that hit the screen interest us.

Edited by PawelS
  • Brohoof 1
Link to comment
18 hours ago, PawelS said:

He can do it randomly, which means that the decision is truly made after the emission of the photon.

Yes. Now we got some big problems because the photon needs to change its behavior without any warning, and somehow do it faster than the speed of light. If this is truly a confirmed measurement, then I am impressed!

To me, that would be like confirming that speed of light is not the fastest. That's very cool.

 

18 hours ago, PawelS said:

Some more answers for you (better late than never)

Those are very good answers to my questions :)

If we only agree on a photon going through one slit, and it creates an interference pattern (after you send more of them through), that I can fully get behind. It is that measurement that bugs me, where for some reason, the photon hits the other side perfectly like a particle/bullet (except for the ones that bounce off the sides of the slit, lol. Gotta love the accuracy of the measurements here).

 

 

I have a confession to tell... After I wrote the last post, I kinda wrote myself into a corner. I said that the photon knew the measurement was going to take place as it (the particle) was created. It already knew the result ahead of time (instead of getting it mid-flight). That would chain-link all particles back to the beginning, all knowing the end result, since the Big Bang. Like if that was the meaning of everything (the result of the measurement was the meaning of Everything). And I still believe in free will. :scoots:

Particles only sync with each other if they have been entangled first. I don't know the process, but I understand that you can't chain link them backwards like that. Also, before a particle exists, you have the super-position. I am speaking about what happens after a particle is a particle, and not a wave. I have no idea or even guesses to what the super-position is supposed to be? All possible ways a particle be be? It is random, maybe truly random, where the particle will be from that super-position.

  • Brohoof 1
Link to comment

@Splashee Superposition is just like linear algebra. So if there are two "classical" states, A and B, a particle can be in a state that can be described as 0.5 A + 0.5 B (or any other proportions of these two states). The actual math behind this is more complicated, but that's the basic idea. And this "mixed state" can only exist if it's not measured, if it's measured then it becomes pure A or pure B, and coefficients in front of A and B become the probabilities of these results. There are many ways to create quantum superposition, for example if there is an atom that can decay, and we don't measure if it did, it can go into a superposition of decayed and non-decayed state (this is used in the famous "Schrödinger's Cat" thought experiment).

  • Brohoof 1
Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Join the herd!

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...